Looking for history

hoping folks might be able to help with some history on this car. my god father bought this car in 1961 from a fellow in eastern massachusetts. the story was that he had just brought the car over from Germany. the fellow was a air force pilot or officer. I suspect the car had some race history because it has a schleischer racing head as well as tubular shocks. it also has/had a german auto club badge in the front grill. the engine is a extremely early engine numbered as it is one of the first five engines BMW made for the 328 cars. the color scheme, white with blue should help to ID the car. any help would be great.thanks in advance.

Advertised in Road & Track, September 1961:

1939 BMW Type 328 rdstr, engine rebuilt w/large valve head, special Vanderval (sic) bearings, and 3 Solex manifold, Bristol-BMW engine and 4-spd close ratio box makes this a very fast classic. Body is excellent except for paint and chrome. Knock-off steel wheels fitted w/ Continental Super Record Racing tires. New top and upholstery. A striking sports car and an excellent buy at $1500. Wayne Goldman, Burlington, Mass.

Possible?

Do you know the chassis number, Sandy?

Do you know the chassis number, Sandy?

yes, the chassis number is 85081...engine number is 85004...I will forward along the delivery info as new a little later today...and Wayne Goldman was the fellow my godfather bought the car from back in 1961...I also have that ad...Goldman owned the car for less than a year as he is the one who bought if from the Air Force person...he "thinks' that that fellow lived in Framingham Mass, but after these many years he can't quite be sure...he also does not remember exactly where he saw the ad for it being for sale although he thinks it was a local publication called the "want ads"..one of those little paper covered publications you could pick up at the local store...I have contacted the owners of that magazine with no result. Sandy.

yes, the chassis number is 85081...engine number is 85004...I will forward along the delivery info as new a little later today...and Wayne Goldman was the fellow my godfather bought the car from back in 1961...I also have that ad...Goldman owned the car for less than a year as he is the one who bought if from the Air Force person...he "thinks' that that fellow lived in Framingham Mass, but after these many years he can't quite be sure...he also does not remember exactly where he saw the ad for it being for sale although he thinks it was a local publication called the "want ads"..one of those little paper covered publications you could pick up at the local store...I have contacted the owners of that magazine with no result. Sandy.

G'day Sandy,

I recall reading about this car in Classic & Sportscar magazine, in the Lost & Found section for 12/07, was said to have been found in a barn and belonged to Ted Wales at some stage. Don't have the magazine handy unfortunately, maybe someone else can have a look to confirm the details.

Cheers,
Damien

G'day Sandy,

I recall reading about this car in Classic & Sportscar magazine, in the Lost & Found section for 12/07, was said to have been found in a barn and belonged to Ted Wales at some stage. Don't have the magazine handy unfortunately, maybe someone else can have a look to confirm the details.

Cheers,
Damien

Hi Damien...yes, this is that car...I remember riding in the car as a kid...brings back many fond memories...Ted raced the car for a while until the right rear axle broke and thus the car was parked until I got it... Further info I have is that the car was delivered on June 24, 1937 to Auto-Fels, a dealer in Mannheim Germany. original color was white with red interior. when the blue paint was laid down is unknown, but underneath the blue is the original white. Sandy

Advertised in Road & Track, September 1961:

1939 BMW Type 328 rdstr, engine rebuilt w/large valve head, special Vanderval (sic) bearings, and 3 Solex manifold, Bristol-BMW engine and 4-spd close ratio box makes this a very fast classic. Body is excellent except for paint and chrome. Knock-off steel wheels fitted w/ Continental Super Record Racing tires. New top and upholstery. A striking sports car and an excellent buy at $1500. Wayne Goldman, Burlington, Mass.

Possible?

I take it for that money...

Alas, I don´t have any detailed info on the car, but some further thoughts. First, a Schleicher head suggests some post-war tuning, so perhaps we should look in this period for race history. But how would this fit to the ad from 1961 when it was offered with a Bristol engine? Was there an engine change or do we speak of two different cars?

Besides this I am very interested to learn something about Ted Wales racing with this car. In which events did he take part? Any known results?

I take it for that money...

Alas, I don´t have any detailed info on the car, but some further thoughts. First, a Schleicher head suggests some post-war tuning, so perhaps we should look in this period for race history. But how would this fit to the ad from 1961 when it was offered with a Bristol engine? Was there an engine change or do we speak of two different cars?

Besides this I am very interested to learn something about Ted Wales racing with this car. In which events did he take part? Any known results?

well, it is in fact the same car...Wayne was not quite up to snuff on the BMW or Bristol engines and it was a simple misquote on his part. the car did have Bristol carbs, as they had accelerator pumps...more likely I think they are Porsche 356 carbs.....after speaking with Wayne several times, as much as he liked the foreign cars, he wasn't very well versed in them. it would appear he only owned 85081 less than 6 months...for him, it was a simple buying of the car, sprucing it up and then selling it...he didn't race the car at all but did manage to go to a few local car club meetings...

regarding Ted Wales I have just some early VSCCA stuff..
VSCCA publication Vol. 1, No. 1, Ted was just an associate member, because he did not yet have a car (April, 1959.) He was, however, editor of the club newsletter from the start. Curiously, if you have Vol. 2 No. 2, read Wales' account of "Vanderbilt Weekend" where it sounds like he fell for a competing 328...
His first appearance with 85081 was July 21, 1962 at Thompson where he was timed 3rd for handicap races. He also finished 3rd in the featured race. April. 1963 he won the Larz Anderson Hillclimb. August 3, 1963 was the Club's annual meeting and he finished second to Cade's Chrysler-Maserati in their 6 car race. September, 1963, he drove to and from Bridgehampton "with wife and baggage" and won when the T59 Bugatti of Holterbosch spun in front of him on the last lap. July of 1964, Wales finished second at Thompson behind Willits' monoposto Bugatti. There was also the first Lime Rock event for the club and Ted competed...no date is given, but it may have been before Bridgehampton, as I recall the rear axle broke on his return from Long Island.

I would agree that with the schleicher head, and the tubular shock conversion, it is very likely that the car did have some racing events under its belt...and more likely it was in germany. the head is in good condition but looks like its been milled a few times, which would suggests it had been driven quite a few miles before it got here. as far as I know, Ted did not do any engine work while he owned it.

are there any records of german sports car events from the late 40's to late 50's available in which this car could have participated?....as I mentioned in an earlier post, the color combination/scheme might help in identifying the car. ....Sandy

Great to read all about the very detailed racing history of the car in America! I had not been aware, that a 328 was used in competition that late - more than 25 years after its production!

are there any records of german sports car events from the late 40's to late 50's available in which this car could have participated?....as I mentioned in an earlier post, the color combination/scheme might help in identifying the car. ....Sandy

To my understanding the car left the factory in plain white with red interieur?

Well, the problem is, there were still a lot of 328 running in various events all over the continent.
Including all cars that could be white (on the b/w photos) and all cars that were definitevely not later coverted Germany we still have quite a list of German drivers like
Karl Kling (1946/47)
Toni Ulmen (1946/47)
Karl-Heinz Schäufele (1947)
Otto Trittel (1947)
Willi Krakau (1947)
Otto Schöpflin (1948)
Franz Käser (1948)
Hans-Jürgen Bud-Monhaim (1948)
H. Klaus (1948)
Adolf Brudes (1948)
Theo Fitzau (1949)
Heinz Kropfgans (1949)

Also a strong equipe of 328 drivers in Switzerland:
Raymond de Sauge (1946)
Kurt Halter (1946/48)
Siegi Scherrer (1946/47)
Alfred Debrunner (1946)
Kaspar Aebli (1946/47)
Humbert Joly (1947)
Emilio Campologno (1947)
Hans Völkle (1947)
A. Derksen (1947)
Arthur Heuberger (1947/48)
Max Ueberschlag (1947)
Raymond Schmid (1947)
Rene Voser (1948)
Henry Gugolz (1948)
Rolf Habisreutinger (1948/49)
Otto Notter (1948)
Josef Kessler (1948/49)
Willy Franz (1949)
"Surpunt" (1949)

Candidates from France:
Marcel Renault (1946)
"Richard" (1946)
Henri Louveau (1946)
"George Raph" (1946)
Crovetto (1947)
Jacques Savoye (1947)
Roger Varoqueaux (1947)
Matthias Rühl (1949)

Also many Scnadinavians:
Yngve Grundell (1947/49)
Curt Lindqvist (1947)
Tage Andersson (1947)
F. Donner (1947)
Bertil Lundberg (1947/49)
Per Gunnar Wahlberg (1948/49)
Arvid Fische (1948/49)
Gunnar Bergman (1949)
Hilding Carenheim (1949)
G.K. Zwingenberg (1949)
Peter Skarring (1949)

And the rest
Claessens (Belgium, 1946)
van der Vencken (Belgium, 1948)
Max Houben (Belgium, 1948)
Jef Legros (Belgium, 1948)
Andre Pilette (Belgium, 1949)
Charles de Tornaco (Belgium, 1949)
vam Cauwenbergh (Belgium, 1949)
Capelletto (Italy, 1947)
Attilio Bianchi (Italy, 1948)
Franco Morassutti (Italy, 1948)
Alberto Kechler (Italy, 1948)
Attilio Guelfi (Italy, 1949)
Leopold Lancman (Czech, 1948)
Zdenek Sojka (Czech, 1949)
Victor Mraz (Czech, 1949)
Miroslav Jurca (Czech, 1949)
Jan Filipovic (Czech, 1949)
Zbigniew Borowczyk (Poland, 1948)
Sobel (Poland, 1948)
Tadeusz Tabecki (Poland, 1948)
Kazimierek (Poland, 1948)
Sedano Acosta (Argentinia, 1948)
Edoardo Harrington (Argentinia, 1949)
Manuel Nunes dos Santos (Portugal, 1949)
Klaver (Netherlands, 1949)
Cos van der Tuyn (Netherlands, 1949)
van der Wansem (Netherlands, 1949)

(Without any guarantee for completeness...)

Quite a long list, and that is only for the late fourties, with all the other colours and the known identities already eliminated. You see how difficult it is to sort out a particular car.

[quote name='sandyleith' date='Mar 6 2011, 13:51' post='4878373']

To my understanding the car left the factory in plain white with red interieur?

as near as we can figure...Factory BMW historian states that in their book, the car is white/red.according to them, such a color combo as white with red fenders would have been "rare" and that normally when their records indicate a car with 2 colors involved, it meant white with red interior...after examining the fenders on the car both topside as well as underneath, it is apparent that there is still a fair amount of white paint underneath the blue paint...I have not seen any red paint anywhere on the car...so, I suspect that it indeed was white body with red interior. it also sports only 1 leather strap holding the bonnet down...not sure when or if one strap went missing, but most all pics I have seen of 328 cars, they all seem to have 2 straps...another bit of info is that there are the mounting points underneath the rear fenders for "spats"...not sure if all 328's had the mounts installed, or whether they made cars without them.

re VSCCA racing back into the 60's....one needs to understand what VSCCA racing was all about...it was more like "gentleman" racing events...did they want to win their race, well sure, but unlike SCCA racing back then, no points were involved, there was no champion at the end of the year...it was a venue in which these "old" cars could still get excercised and allowing folks to "have at it"....VSCCA was a northeast US club that started in the late 50's of which Ted and my dad were founding members. The club still exists today and is very active in doing vintage race events.

I see what you mean about many cars to chose from...quite a list!!....Sandy

Ok, regarding the Schleicher head and the British parts maybe we can also eliminate the owners from Eastern Europe and overseas, anyway, it will remain problematic to geet much further with the information we have.

as near as we can figure...Factory BMW historian states that in their book, the car is white/red.according to them, such a color combo as white with red fenders would have been "rare" and that normally when their records indicate a car with 2 colors involved, it meant white with red interior...

Yes, that is the conclusion as similar colour combinations are recorded for cars that were always one colour only on the pictures.

it also sports only 1 leather strap holding the bonnet down...not sure when or if one strap went missing, but most all pics I have seen of 328 cars, they all seem to have 2 straps...another bit of info is that there are the mounting points underneath the rear fenders for "spats"...not sure if all 328's had the mounts installed, or whether they made cars without them.

Interestingly I just found a picture of a car with just that configuration

http://8w.forix.com/...-rs-karls47.jpg

But I am again sceptic whether this is sufficient for identification, as it is reportde that this car was later rebodied.

In general I think BMW always produced the 328 with the two leather straps, at least the ones with the standard factory bodies. For the "spats" Rainer Simons in his book states, that they were a feature of the second series (328/2), starting with chassis number #85280. Other characteristic features of this series were a rear window, rev counter to the right of the speed-o-meter, and the new "heavy" rear axle, adopted from the 326/327 models. The reverse gear was now to the left forward.

re VSCCA racing back into the 60's....one needs to understand what VSCCA racing was all about...it was more like "gentleman" racing events...did they want to win their race, well sure, but unlike SCCA racing back then, no points were involved, there was no champion at the end of the year...it was a venue in which these "old" cars could still get excercised and allowing folks to "have at it"....VSCCA was a northeast US club that started in the late 50's of which Ted and my dad were founding members. The club still exists today and is very active in doing vintage race events.

Like this idea, sounds like lovely times.

Could this be the same car? From Road & Track, June 1957:

BMW 328 fabulous 2 litre classic. 0-60 in 9 sec., 100 plus. completely overhauled. Original with factory modified head, raised compression, tubular shocks. $2000. M. Ewing, Poughkeepsie, NY

There were quite a number of 328's advertised for sale in R&T during the Fifties, including the ex-Faulkenhausen 1952 Alpine Rally winner (June 1959).

Could this be the same car? From Road & Track, June 1957:

BMW 328 fabulous 2 litre classic. 0-60 in 9 sec., 100 plus. completely overhauled. Original with factory modified head, raised compression, tubular shocks. $2000. M. Ewing, Poughkeepsie, NY

There were quite a number of 328's advertised for sale in R&T during the Fifties, including the ex-Faulkenhausen 1952 Alpine Rally winner (June 1959).

Hi JB...that is a very good question...I have that issue and saw the ad and wondered...Mr Ewing, whose real name was Maskell Ewing was an artist from the Poughkeepsie area...he lived near Paul Richards(used to race SCCA in the day) who had 2 BMW 328 cars, neither of which became the Ewing car or my car...we have photos of Pauls cars for verification...but, given the description in the ad, its a little close for comfort to dismiss the connection...and, Poughkeepsie is not that far from eastern Massachusetts....I am researching Mr Ewing with little luck so far...I have been unable to find any race entries involving Ewing, but the search continues...

Re the sale of the car from Germany...are there any car magazines from the late 50's of German origin in which one would put such a car up for sale in?....here in the US we obviously had R&T, as well as various other car mags and we also had the car club magazines in which to sell the cars...were similar magazines available in Germany or was there some other venue in which one would advertise a car?... Regards Sandy

You would have to look into "Auto, Motor & Sport" of course and from Switzerland into the "Automobil Revue", which are still existing. Also there was a number of other magazines like "Motorsport und Motorradwelt" and also the "Illustrierter Motorsport" from East Germany, but my files end in the middle of the fifties. Until then the ads were usually not very conclusive, here a few examples:


"BMW 328 Supersport, 3 carbs, guaranteed 20,000 km, in perfect condition - Rare occasion! - Chiffre"
(Automobil Revue 1948)


"BMW sports two seater, 80 hp, Type 328, as new, - Chiffre"
(Das Auto, 1949)

There were quite a number of 328's advertised for sale in R&T during the Fifties, including the ex-Faulkenhausen 1952 Alpine Rally winner (June 1959).

Do you have more details from that ad?

The ad reads:

BMW 328, ex-Faulkenhausen '52 Alpine Rally winner, factory restored at great cost. 115 hp (DIN), as new throughout. bids open, bills sent on request. Contact JS Hilton II, Hoboken, NJ

You probably have good pictures of this car on the Alpine, the only picture I could find in a quick search shows car #216, which appears to have a white body with dark wings, two bonnet straps, and disc wheels.

I only have pictures from publications, so not really good quality.

Falkenhausen was very successful in this kind of events.

#216 was in the French Alpine Rallye 1952


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And with #63 in the Austrian Alpine Rallye of 1951, which he also won:


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According to my records this should be #85073.

Edited by uechtel, 08 March 2011 - 22:43.