Massa's days are numbered.......

Those of you defending Massa by pointing to his keeping Button behind him as great driving are really forgetting the fact that it was glaringly obvious during this phase just how much faster Button was than Massa and that Alonso was gaining on him lap after lap. Yes he defended well but it doesnt excuse the fact he was painfully slow compared to Alonso - and by the end of the race barely lucked into a few points whilst his teamate threatened the podium after being well behind him on the first lap.

Ferrari may well retain him - but only to keep Alonso happy.

WHY? Why is he not allowed to beat alonso anymore? where exactly do you base this assumption? seriously people you need to get over this "ferrari=alonso" thing!!!

as i said in another forum, I am fairly certain that to the people running ferrari, the name "ferrari" is far more important than "alonso", so they will do whatever it takes to keep that name on top. if massa ups his game to the point where he will be able to challenge alonso and he is in front on the wdc tables, there is no way in hell that ferrari will take points off their leading driver just to put another one on top. not with things as they are now, with red bull's dominance and the speed that mclaren have revealed.

COME ON!!!

I think you're basically right, but I think it all depends on how well he starts the season off. The more points he is behind Alonso, the less chance he'll have of scoring points (i.e. the more Ferrari will back Alonso), whereas I don't think the opposite would be true to the same extent, as I reckon they have more faith in Alonso.

Kimi=Alonso > Massa.
Like someone said before, it's possible that Kimi would beat Alonso in a McLaren, but it's also possible Alonso would beat him in a Ferrari...

Massa was never a top driver..

Massa and Raikkonen are on the same level. Both have shined when circumstances are just right for them and both have had severe drops in form when things aren't just right for them. Alonso's always been competitive, that's the difference between good drivers and great drivers. Of course people are going to disagree with me

A mate of mine was in the paddock at Melbourne and heard some whispers that Rubens could retire at the end of the year & Massa could take his place at Williams.

I think Williams would be crazy to do that. And Rubens is still too bitter to retire imo, I think he'll only retire when no team wants to take him.

A mate of mine was in the paddock at Melbourne and heard some whispers that Rubens could retire at the end of the year & Massa could take his place at Williams.

Massa no please I would take Heidfeld over him anyday.

There's a difference though. Jenson knows that if he can get ahead of Lewis in a race he'll be allowed to stay there. So his motivation is going to be higher, and that difference is going to grow race by race..

Last weekend he had the chance to stay ahead of Alonso, if he matched his pace could keep a car, or a margin big enough, between both making the team order impossible. Unfortunatly he couldn´t. Then do not blame the team but Massa himself. He is half a second slower, do not expect equal treatment.

Edited by Enzoluis, 29 March 2011 - 11:42.

Those of you defending Massa by pointing to his keeping Button behind him as great driving are really forgetting the fact that it was glaringly obvious during this phase just how much faster Button was than Massa and that Alonso was gaining on him lap after lap. Yes he defended well but it doesnt excuse the fact he was painfully slow compared to Alonso - and by the end of the race barely lucked into a few points whilst his teamate threatened the podium after being well behind him on the first lap.

Ferrari may well retain him - but only to keep Alonso happy.

If Ferrari wants, and they do, the WCC needs two top drivers, if Alonso do not accept that I see both drivers living the team.

The difference between Alonso and Massa in terms of raw speed is similar to the difference that there is between Hamilton and Button (2-3 tenths), but I don't see nobody saying that Button has lost his edge, most people say that the difference between him and Hamilton in terms of raw speed is because Hamilton is a very special driver blah blah...

Maybe it is indeed a matter of choosing the words differently... but the main point is that both Button and Massa are more often than not weaker than their team mates. And the same more or less applies to Webber compared to Vettel. They just aren't in the same tier. Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are special drivers.

Massa seems to get most stick for some reason.

That's just the thing. The opportunity is there for the taking but he is up a against a rampant Alonso. Which again leads us to Alonso is just better which in turn will lead to him having to move over more often than not.

If his motivation is low or has consigned himself to receiving a can of whipass from Alonso every race weekend then he should do the decent thing and just quit before he is fired. His performances last year and the performance in Australia don't even warrant being labelled number 2.

Anyway, let's see how he performs in the next couple of races before jumping to conclusions.

Btw, what do you mean by the way the team manages things its performance is going to be on the slide all year?

The difference in Ferrari is that Massa will have to move over for Alonso, even early in the season (unless maybe he's well ahead in the points and he's not gonna be). Button and Webber will not.

So as the season goes on, Felipe is going to get more and more demotivated.

But yes we can always change our minds if he surprises us with a great drive, gets ahead and has some cars between him and Fernando perhaps.

Ferrari have crushed his spirit. I'm sure he still has the talent and would bloom at any team that would appreciate him.

A mate of mine was in the paddock at Melbourne and heard some whispers that Rubens could retire at the end of the year & Massa could take his place at Williams.

Only makes sense if he's bringing a shed load of cash.

I would choose Massa over Kimi anyday! That aside...

I hear this debate every year, but Massa keeps holding onto his seat. People only see Massa's weak points. Massa is a fast driver, give him Vettel's car and I'm sure he would have won the Australian Grandprix, just like Vettel did. His current situation at Ferrari has nothing to do with his team mate, no one expects him to beat Alonso anyway. People who claim he's massively effected by what happened in Germany last year or his accident, should think again. Santander might be keen onto holding him, it might be profitable for the Brazilian market etc.. but I don't think that's the only reason why Ferrari would keep him.

Don't get me wrong, it's undeniable that Massa is going through a not so good time when it comes to his professional career. If he ups his game a bit, and shows more fights like the one with Button last Sunday, I'm sure he will stay at Ferrari. If he stays stuck in this moment, Ferrari will ultimately replace him with someone they think will handle his position a lot better.

Btw, I would love to see Perez in the Ferrari, maybe not next year already, but soon.

Edited by Smile17, 29 March 2011 - 11:53.

Last weekend he had the chance to stay ahead of Alonso, if he matched his pace could keep a car, or a margin big enough, between both making the team order impossible. Unfortunatly he couldn´t. Then do not blame the team but Massa himself. He is half a second slower, do not expect equal treatment.

Yes quite so, my point is (a) Massa is too slow these days and (b) Ferrari are making the absolute worst of it - extending his contract, then betraying him, keeping him, while demotivating him with the knowledge that he will have to get out of Alonso's way even early in the season.

I would choose Massa over Kimi anyday!

I'm pretty sure Fernando would raise his glass to that notion too as he's had enough difficulty with Massa on occasion.

I'm pretty sure Fernando would raise his glass to that notion too as he's had enough difficulty with Massa on occasion.

As if Alonso cares who his teammate is, as long as there's no mischievous team leader around who's way too fond of the guy in the 'next seat'. And if he does care, good for him, F1 nowadays is all about the right people in the right place. (at the right time)

Kimi made Massa look good, just like Alonso makes Massa look bad, terribly bad.

Last but not least, we should not forget that Ferrari hasn't produced a good car last year, nor does it look like they managed to do that this year. The gap to the rivals is huge. The car looks way too slow at times, and complicated. This is not helping Massa, I think many drivers who are seen as better drivers than the Brazilian would struggle.

How hard can it be to get Ricciardo

How hard can it be to get Ricciardo

Do they want Ricciardo? Oh and isn't he a Red Bull man?

Do they want Ricciardo? Oh and isn't he a Red Bull man?

Massa can always replace Webber next year, unless RB want someone younger...

Massa will be out no matter what he does.

Montezemolo will not put up with him anymore if he is uncompetitive. That has been clear since last year. OTOH, if he suddenly does become competitive, it will be Alonso who'll become unable and unwilling to deal with a challenge and pressure form inside the team.

Basically, a healthy and competitive environment with Alonso and him in the team is impossible to achieve.

We did this already 12 months ago.

What was the conclusion then, so we can see if it's the same? and perhaps move on?

Also we need something to reference after the first race of 2012 just to make sure we're being consistent, y'know.

Basically, a healthy and competitive environment with Alonso and him in the team is impossible to achieve.

Imo, it's there already!

Do they want Ricciardo? Oh and isn't he a Red Bull man?

Alonso sure dosent.

If they want WCC they need to do something drastic

What was the conclusion then, so we can see if it's the same? and perhaps move on?

Also we need something to reference after the first race of 2012 just to make sure we're being consistent, y'know.

Well he wasn't replaced by Robert Kubica.

IMO, next few races will be far too critical for him. If he starts shaving some points off the RBR and Mclaren, and also improve his qualifying runs, then definitely Ferrari would retain him for the next year too..

Alonso sure dosent.

If they want WCC they need to do something drastic

design a fast car

Did you see the race? Massa holds Button for 15 laps, Alonso gets in his mirror and he lets him past in an instant. And no, I don't think they had time to give orders to force a penalty for Button, he jumped aside immediately.

This is not a bash or criticism, it's a retelling of the facts as I saw them. Massa is NOT faster, but if he by chance or strategy is ahead he will let Alonso pass. He's #2 from the start of the season this year.

Alonso was on a different strategy at the time. Massa was on a two stopper(at the time) and Alonso was on a three stopper, it makes no sense for Massa to hold him up at this point. For all you who are going to say that that shouldnt be allowed. Well, I will im gonna go ahead and counter with pointing back to the 2008 season where Kovalnien and Hamilton did a similiar thing.

I am not an Alonso fan but having him stuck in Massa's wing for a few laps last weekend would have been dumb for ferrari

Did you see the race? Massa holds Button for 15 laps, Alonso gets in his mirror and he lets him past in an instant. And no, I don't think they had time to give orders to force a penalty for Button, he jumped aside immediately.

Did you see the race? Massa's speed through Turns 11 and 12 was compromised by running side-by-side with Button, allowing Alonso to get a run on him approaching Turn 12. Massa moved to the inside to defend his position from his team-mate, ran slightly wide at the exit of the corner, and Alonso was able to slip past.

Massa wasn't dumped for this season because he already had a contract.
Ferrari probably had enough in paying Kimi to not race for them.

Alonso was on a different strategy at the time. Massa was on a two stopper(at the time) and Alonso was on a three stopper, it makes no sense for Massa to hold him up at this point. For all you who are going to say that that shouldnt be allowed. Well, I will im gonna go ahead and counter with pointing back to the 2008 season where Kovalnien and Hamilton did a similiar thing.

Of course, team orders are legal this year, so it's a moot point.

Overall he isn't faster than Alonso. But as Germany showed, when he is in front of Alonso he is told to go slower.

What does that do for a driver's motivation?

Yeah, like in a few races at the start of 2010 season where he was on front and also was told to let FA pass...

Looking for excuses since the 12th lap of 1st GP of season, pathetic

Edited by muelte, 29 March 2011 - 13:09.

Massa wasn't dumped for this season because he already had a contract.
Ferrari probably had enough in paying Kimi to not race for them.

I m pretty sure Massa's contract was due to expire at the end of 2010 and it was renewed for another year. If they wanted rid of him (with his 2010 performances on record) they could have just not renewed him.

Massa seems stronger defending a position than racing in clear air. Button faced the same tough task of trying to get past Massa as Alonso did last year in Oz. However, once overtaken Massa just seems to disappear in the dust.

This makes it very difficult for the team to support him as a contender because he seems more focused on beating Alonso than going about business of winning races and championships.

This doesn't mean that he can't play an important role in the team, as long as he is straight in his head about who is leading the charge.

WHY? Why is he not allowed to beat alonso anymore? where exactly do you base this assumption? seriously people you need to get over this "ferrari=alonso" thing!!!

as i said in another forum, I am fairly certain that to the people running ferrari, the name "ferrari" is far more important than "alonso", so they will do whatever it takes to keep that name on top. if massa ups his game to the point where he will be able to challenge alonso and he is in front on the wdc tables, there is no way in hell that ferrari will take points off their leading driver just to put another one on top. not with things as they are now, with red bull's dominance and the speed that mclaren have revealed.

COME ON!!!

I think Massa is not psychologically destroyed by Alonso. I would put that as Ferrari's fault. They let Alonso dictate terms to such an extent that they have forgotten to support their senior driver in Massa. It is an Alonso Ferrari team and not vise versa. They have basically sold their souls to Alonso just to add another trophy 9in their cabinet. This is something I have never appreciated. The Michael era started this process, previous to this in the days of Enzo Ferrari this would have never happened. As the great man himself said and I quote:

"Drivers are just like overpaid employees."

Enzo believed in the idea of Ferrari more than anything else. Unfortunately that feeling is now lost in the executive professional cabins of the factory, where in the lust to win world championships they have lost their identity to a driver, putting a fake emotion to support their cause.

He is not allowed to beat Alonso and because of this he is just going through the motions and putting in the basic levels of effort.

I don't believe that, though you state it as a matter of fact. If Massa is faster than Alonso and has a better chance in the WDC, believe me, Ferrari will switch like a leaf on a tree - like they should.

They have basically sold their souls to Alonso just to add another trophy 9in their cabinet.

That's a bit melodramatic .. considering the most sustained period of success Ferrari has had in modern F1 was with MS pretty much dictating terms, drivers even team personnel. Ferrari want success. Ferrari also want money (since they got to ditch the cigarette thing at some point), the Santander/Alonso package is pretty much a deal made in heaven for them. A top driver and a crapload of money. Besides, recent history suggests that from a team point of view 2 competitive drivers end up stealing points of each other, to the extent you may end up with a great car, 2 great drivers and a random 3rd party winning the championship, cause in the tracks where your car was strong your 2 drivers were stealing points from each other.

 He's just having some of the things Kimi got from the team. Not being nº 1 is quite hard. But then, his situation is even worse than kimi's: He was publicly humiliated in Germany last year. And of course, his accident made him lost that edge IMO. It's time for him to go.

Well, he was the one that wanted it to became "public". All the teams used coded orders and Massa just ignored them and then make it blatant. You may like it or not, but noone on the team wanted Massa look humilliated in public.

Of course it´s hard for a driver to be given team orders, but to avoid them you just have to be up in the game. The difference between Also and Massa in Germany was low, if you look at the points. But if you have access to telemetry you can tell who is faster, who is slower and which is you number 1 driver..... the one you believe will bring home a title.

And please, stop talking about "equality" in F1. This is a hardcore business. Vettel is number 1 in Red Bull and Hamilton is number 1 in McLaren.

It may not be polite to say this but Button and Webber are like Massa. They are slower than their teammates and make nice number 2 drivers to win WDC´s.... and Webber is much more vocal than Massa by the way.

Button is a number 2 driver that is a world champion due to a series of circunstances, and he his british in a british team. Of course everyone is going to speak about equal chances, but at the end of the day the people in the team know who has more chances of winning and at the end of the day that is what matters. They will never admit it, but Hamilton is the real deal and the team will back him up if they have to choose.

Back to the point, Massa must improve. Usually i would say that he has this year to improve, but there are loads of young guns coming and Ferrari needs two strong drivers to deliver the WDC. If after 4 or 5 races he is too far in pace he is going to be in trouble.

This is F1. The top level. If you cannot drive in the edge because you have a kid or you are psicologically down, then go home. If he was affected by the accident, then sorry, but leave nonetheless, because you will not help your team.

Having Fernando as a partner is a bet, because he is considered a top gun. If you are up to the job, like hamilton, you will be boosted as a driver. If you are obliterated, you will loose credibility as a driver. Simple as that.

That's a bit melodramatic .. considering the most sustained period of success Ferrari has had in modern F1 was with MS pretty much dictating terms, drivers even team personnel. Ferrari want success. Ferrari also want money (since they got to ditch the cigarette thing at some point), the Santander/Alonso package is pretty much a deal made in heaven for them. A top driver and a crapload of money. Besides, recent history suggests that from a team point of view 2 competitive drivers end up stealing points of each other, to the extent you may end up with a great car, 2 great drivers and a random 3rd party winning the championship, cause in the tracks where your car was strong your 2 drivers were stealing points from each other.

I think there is a difference between having a good and a decent driver to having a good and a pathetic driver who was once good in his hay days. I am betting that by the end of the year Ferrari themselves will look for a replacement for Massa, probably Perez if he keeps performing the way he did in Melbourne.

Yes Ferrari has had success in the recent past. But to what cost ? It was not as if they never had success, after all they are the most successful team in F1 now. That success was won from an accumulated process throughout the history of F1, and not only post 2000's.

Is Massa under that much threat? It could be like Rubens whereby the driver leaves first because he sees his career going nowhere as a(n) Alonso/Schumacher lap dog. Any other driver might refuse such a situation, thereby creating tension in the team. The likes of Perez will refuse to sacrifice their career for Ferrari, I bet.

Edited by Disgrace, 29 March 2011 - 13:24.

Yes quite so, my point is (a) Massa is too slow these days and (b) Ferrari are making the absolute worst of it - extending his contract, then betraying him, keeping him, while demotivating him with the knowledge that he will have to get out of Alonso's way even early in the season.

Massa can go away if he wants. I guess there is no other seat for him.

It is very painful to see Felipe struggling that much... He was doing so well in 2008 and 2009, but after the accident I just can t recognize "the old" Massa again...

I feel the same way.

People have short memories. Search the archives and look how Massa performed in Australia 2008. I can tell you he surely did not win the race. But I will let you do the research of how he drove that race.

Massa seems the same as he's always been. Shocking at some races, brilliant at others. Back in 2008 it was a two horse race between Hamilton and Massa. They had no competition and they made so many silly mistakes it was ridiculous. They were lucky Newey was not up to speed yet because he would have eaten them for breakfast.

Last year the excuse was tires, this year will be team orders. The fact is Massa is not as good as Alonso but he is not that bad either. I have no doubt Massa will bonce back and will not be surprised if he beats Alonso a couple of times. Besides remember what happened the last time Massa got replaced at Ferrari? Things will not improve unless you get a Kubica, Hamilton or Vettel in his seat. So Massa is very safe where he is.

People have short memories. Search the archives and look how Massa performed in Australia 2008. I can tell you he surely did not win the race. But I will let you do the research of how he drove that race.

Massa seems the same as he's always been. Shocking at some races, brilliant at others. Back in 2008 it was a two horse race between Hamilton and Massa. They had no competition and they made so many silly mistakes it was ridiculous. They were lucky Newey was not up to speed yet because he would have eaten them for breakfast.

Last year the excuse was tires, this year will be team orders. The fact is Massa is not as good as Alonso but he is not that bad either. I have no doubt Massa will bonce back and will not be surprised if he beats Alonso a couple of times. Besides remember what happened the last time Massa got replaced at Ferrari? Things will not improve unless you get a Kubica, Hamilton or Vettel in his seat. So Massa is very safe where he is.

I dont think he is on the same mental level as he was in 2008. Yes there were less challengers for the title, but what really makes a driver is when he battles his opposite directly head on and takes the championship, coz wining with 5 driver in contention is easier IMO than winning with only 1 driver to challenge. The point being that when there is a 5 way fight usually all the driver take points off eahc otehr, which is good for all, but in a 2 way fight, if one of the drivers is super consistent and quick, then its a huge mountain to climb for the other guy, as in the case of Massa when he faced Lewis. Pretty much on the lines of Prost v Senna.

The reason why he is not wining are two fold:

1. Ferrari will not let him win. If there is a Ferrari in the race which is in a winning position, then they will make sure through strategies that it is the one with the driver with blue helmet.
2. Massa has been destroyed by Alonso in his mind. His mind thinks that he is slower to Alonso, as long as that inhibition is there he will never be able to win back his magic of 2008 again.

It's clear that Massa has completely lost his motivation...the events of Hockenheim saw to that, although to be honest I thought he was on the way down before that. He cuts a rather miserable figure in the F1 paddock nowadays. I never rated Massa as a great driver but when he had a car that could qualify on the front row he could get the job done. Whenever he qualified in midfield however he was all at sea... Silverstone 2008 was one of the worst performances I have ever seen, he was an embarrassment that day. I don't think his loss of form has got anything to do with his accident...he is the same old Massa, he just does not have a dominant car any more and a far superior team-mate in Alonso. I do agree that Massa's days are numbered at Ferrari...even Smedley sounded as if he was running out of patience with him in Melbourne. Felipe Baby will always be the "nearly man" I'm afraid...World Champion for 20 seconds, as he never tires of reminding us.

His days in a Ferrari are numbered only if he matches and challenges Alonso's pace.

Ferrari are looking for a good No 2 not a challenger to Alonso.

He will be sacked only if Ferrari finds a better No 2

Edited by destiny, 29 March 2011 - 14:09.

The one problem with comparing Massa to Webber and Button is that more often than not last year both Webber and Button followed their teammates home to collect the next best points they could.

Massa quite often is not in the next position behind his teammate - he is way behind.

He'll be with Ferrari a while yet me thinks. The car was a handful over the weekend and I think you have to give alonso credit for getting the most out it. Massa was a bit unlucky with the strategy, having to pit with just 9 laps left for example. Ferrari will improve the setup and it will bring Massa back into the game. I don't expect him to beat alonso over the season but i think he can have a solid one. As such I'm sure he'll be with the team in 2012. I also don't understand why so many are convinced team orders are already in place. And this 'Massa has been mentally destroyed by Alonso' theory. Come on, if that;s the case the guy has no business being at the top level of motorsport. Under pressure yes, but destroyed no.

His sunday's performance wasn't that bad,
sure he couldn't follow Alonso's pace... but he did set the fastest lap, had a good first battle with Button and scored good points.

But it's true if Ferrari wants to fight for the constructors title.. they'll need a better one.... but who will that be???

Massa can go away if he wants. I guess there is no other seat for him.

He'll wait to have his contract bought out, no-one walks away from that kind of money.

I m pretty sure Massa's contract was due to expire at the end of 2010 and it was renewed for another year. If they wanted rid of him (with his 2010 performances on record) they could have just not renewed him.

I guess you're right. link
The news is from june 2010, a month and a half before Hockenheim. And it says he has a contract until the end of 2012. Now I wonder if there are performance clauses...

He'll wait to have his contract bought out, no-one walks away from that kind of money.

Unless his contract contains performance clauses...