BRM Volume 4

So Doug....

It is now well into 2016.

Think we'll be able to stop holding our breath this year?

There are some of us turning blue, which is certainly not good at our age.

Hell, we don't dare buy green bananas so don't make us wait TOO much longer....

Am not sure how much stronger I can get my prescription for my glasses, or is the print going to be larger?

Sorry fellers - I really appreciate your interest (and patience) - but BRM V4 has had to be fitted in as and when other commitments permit.  It remains an abiding interest for me, but I doubt any of you would be much attracted by the pay-rate...

DCN  

I appreciate what you're saying, Doug, but still hope you'll be spurred on by the achievement of it all!

KICKSTARTER~!

And the bird was still dead.

 

Sorry fellers - I really appreciate your interest (and patience) - but BRM V4 has had to be fitted in as and when other commitments permit.  It remains an abiding interest for me, but I doubt any of you would be much attracted by the pay-rate...

 

DCN  

 

The good news, for Doug, is that there does not have to be a Volume 5.

DCN

She has also discovered the existence of some papers covered by the 100-Year Rule which cannot be released until 2015: these may shed further light, but seem likely to - at the very least - confirm her researches.

There is an updated response to criticism of the book on the Amazon website in which the original detractor pours cold water upon Bobbie's belief that there remain unreleased papers within the Bodleian.  The writer maintains that all Asquith/Stanley documentation is well known, and well understood and flatly maintains that Bobbie has either altered or ignored verifiable facts which conflict with her version of events.  Hmmm - I wonder.  Perhaps someone doth protest too much?  I'm just not at all sure which 'someone' that might be...Bobbie, or her critic...

DCN

Very, very much so...  There is no separating partial cause and effect.

DCN

There is an updated response to criticism of the book on the Amazon website in which the original detractor pours cold water upon Bobbie's belief that there remain unreleased papers within the Bodleian.  The writer maintains that all Asquith/Stanley documentation is well known, and well understood and flatly maintains that Bobbie has either altered or ignored verifiable facts which conflict with her version of events.  Hmmm - I wonder.  Perhaps someone doth protest too much?  I'm just not at all sure which 'someone' that might be...Bobbie, or her critic...

 

DCN

You have my sympathies, Doug. I'm sure Volume IV would be easier to write if Bobbie Neate's claims could be either confirmed or discounted.  On the Amazon site I pressed 'Simon T. Barnes' on the Asquith angle but he never provided clear evidence to support his claim that the book is a load of poorly researched nonsense.  STB is, apparently, a published author but I can find no evidence of this!

As Tim points out, Bobbie N hasn't updated her CofS facebook and website recently - certainly not with exciting 'new' Asquith letters! - but she does claim support from 'professional genealogist' Roy Stockdill. But, following the link, and searching that site, I can't see the relevant 'supportive' post!   Any convincing evidence of either Louis Stanley's background, or of his apparently dreadful behaviour towards Bobbie, seems hard to find.

On the Amazon site I pressed 'Simon T. Barnes' on the Asquith angle but he never provided clear evidence to support his claim that the book is a load of poorly researched nonsense.

There is support - sadly - for Bobbie's view...

DCN

There is support - sadly - for Bobbie's view...

 

DCN

That's dreadful for her and must make it difficult for you to decide how to handle the behaviour and legacy of Louis Stanley throughout Vol IV.

When I compiled my Cooper book, I loved every minute of doing so.  Everybody of any significance who featured in the Cooper story - however crooked, villainous and unprincipled some might have been - was actually also an attractive, entertaining, enjoyable character.

The same simply does not apply to the BRM Saga - and much of that is because much of it and its background was absolutely marinated (most unlike Cooper) by the British class structure, attitudes and behaviour of the relevant period. But it remains one helluva story within motor racing history at its most prominent level. And it will be told.  

DCN

Hmmm - I wonder.  Perhaps someone doth protest too much?  I'm just not at all sure which 'someone' that might be...Bobbie, or her critic...

 

 

The only other review from the chap is on some garden canes:

Canes were extremely poor - very thin and spindly despite being described as 'good quality strong'. Some were split. Probably the worst quality garden canes I have seen. The only thing in their favour was the cheap carriage cost but would definitely never buy from this company again.

 

Which suggests he is Alan Partridge.

Edited by Tim Murray, 14 February 2016 - 10:20.

When I compiled my Cooper book, I loved every minute of doing so.  Everybody of any significance who featured in the Cooper story - however crooked, villainous and unprincipled some might have been - was actually also an attractive, entertaining, enjoyable character.

 

The same simply does not apply to the BRM Saga - and much of that is because much of it and its background was absolutely marinated (most unlike Cooper) by the British class structure, attitudes and behaviour of the relevant period. But it remains one helluva story within motor racing history at its most prominent level. And it will be told.  

 

DCN

Doug, Can you enlighten us any further on the "ERA Special" of Raymond Mays as shown on page 74 of BRM book no.1. Did the car actually run in an event and what became of it afterwards ?

Edited by Dick Willis, 09 April 2016 - 02:51.

Without double checking I think you must be referring to the stillborn ERA Special hill-climb car which Raymond Mays had his chaps build, very foolishly using chain drive within forward-facing swinging chain chests which doubled as rear suspension locating members. I was told that when tested it took off from a standing start with first one side's chain winding-up the suspension to force the relevant road wheel down, so theoretically enhancing its traction, but then the other side's chain, then back to the first dependent upon grip achieved, so that the car 'waddled furiously' with its rear wheels in effect tramping furiously, and alternately.  

It was a complete failure.

When the BRMR Trustees heard that the car had occupied BRM machine shop time, and - worse - was fitted with some of the hyper-expensive experimental Lockheed air strut suspension units intended for the (much heavier) V16 they wanted RM's guts for garters.  The car's fate has always been shrouded in some mystery but I believe on balance that it was quietly broken up and forgotten...

Typical of RM, he seems to have invited the press to visit Bourne and to photograph and publicise this personal project without any prior reference to his paymasters within the British Motor Racing Research Trust.

When they reacted explosively, first questioning the provenance of some of the components used, then hearing that BRM machine-shop time had been taken up by sprint car work, the Brown Windsor soup hit the fan.  

RM would have been completely bewildered by such a reaction. An only child, very much indulged ever since childhood, confident of his own self-image as a national celebrity - the aftermath of this sprint car episode had far reaching impact not only upon his self-esteem but very much moreso upon the way in which he was regarded by the BRM project's Trustees and industrialist backers. When our discussions touched upon the subject he very quickly dismissed it or digressed onto something else - e.g. "Oh Doug I must say that's a very nice shirt you are wearing, where did you buy it?" - "Errrr - my wife gets them from Marks & Sparks..."

"Oh!"     

DCN

The Times report of the June 10th 1950 Shelsley meeting suggests that Mays may have originally entered the sprint car for that, although he ran R4D in the end as the sprint car was 'not ready'.

Thanks Doug, that explains a lot, in more ways than one !

It's in March 2016.

Edited by smbrm, 06 April 2017 - 15:51.

Going back to this Neate business, Stanley had sons who are presumably still alive; and Asquith had sons who had sons, lots of whom are still alive.  If Stanley is descended from Asquith, they all share a Y chromosome, so DNA testing would easily resolve this.  

Or has this already been tried?  

Don't spoil a good story with mere facts Allen...  And we should all remember that this can be a deeply personal matter for the people entirely unwittingly - and in some cases unwillingly - involved...whereas for the enthusiastic onlooker, and the merely inquisitive, it's all a merely transient matter of no lasting consequence whatsoever. Essentially it's none of our perishing business.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 06 April 2017 - 20:09.

Edited by E.B., 06 April 2017 - 21:38.

Edited by smbrm, 07 April 2017 - 15:09.

Personally, I think that Volume 4 can -- and should -- take as bloody well long as DCN wishes to take with it.

As for those who are totally uninterested in the context of the narrative and, therefore, any role of the dreaded "politics" and "personalities" that are, in my view, essential to the story of BRM, you simply Do. Not. Get. It.

Understand - but I still would like to read it sometime soon as i started going to races in the time of Stanley BRM.......

Geoff

What with all the detail of the background shenanigans and carryings-on, I have heard rumours that Vol 4 will be so heavy it will take 4 people to lift it...

Unfortunately BRM V4 covers the years in which LTS ran BRM, increasingly divorced from Rubbery Owen patronage.  Much of what happened can be attributed to LTS, the good, the bad and the ugly.  And to understand what happened, one has to understand what motivated LTS, which means delving into his character etc.    One of the strengths of Vol 1-3 is Mr. Nye's attention to the people behind the story.  His chronicling of events is so much more than a narrative of static race results, and proceeding without an understanding of the people behind the results would lessen the value of the resulting narrative.  A line can (and should) be drawn between the germane and the sordid, but there remains much that would provide insight to the interested reader.  Just my opinion and others may differ.

One suspects Doug wishes 'Saga' wasn't used in the title of his BRM volumes. Because he must find this thread a bit of a saga too.

To put things into perspective Vol 1 was published in 1994, then Vol 2 took a further 9 years coming out in 2003. It might just be that a spanner was thrown in the works with Vol 3 coming out early - less than 5 years in 2008. So it's now beginning to equal the gap between Vol 1 & 2, Although you never know, DCN might have hoped it was all to be 9 year gaps. So that means he still has til 2021 on that strategy.

Then in movie terms of course, the DCN prequel on ERA... I'm being tongue in cheek on all this - it will take what it takes and suspect the more he is pestered the slower it will get. Unless of course publisher/producers mix up the cheque for JK Rowling and DCN whereby that might make him totally focussed to V4. .

Totally unrelated to Volume 4, but still some DCN BRM love...

https://www.goodwood...-favourite-car/

Stephen

What with all the detail of the background shenanigans and carryings-on, I have heard rumours that Vol 4 will be so heavy it will take 4 people to lift it...

I wonder if the book will be too large to fit in the standard wooden box for air freight...

Edited by Roger Clark, 09 April 2017 - 10:20.

One of the strengths of Vol 1-3 is Mr. Nye's attention to the people behind the story.  His chronicling of events is so much more than a narrative of static race results, and proceeding without an understanding of the people behind the results would lessen the value of the resulting narrative.  A line can (and should) be drawn between the germane and the sordid, but there remains much that would provide insight to the interested reader.

Well said. Looking back to the early years of BRM, the V16 and first 2.5 litre cars reported in Vol 1, it is a very personal story. The motivation to establish BRM was a personal achievement for Raymond Mays and Peter Berthon, but having made the firm they weren't the right people to run it. The kerfuffle (and muddled history) of Maserati 250Fs operated by BRM created a perception that BRM was a team that turned up (occasionally) rather than being run. At the same time, BRM built up a big engineering back end of its own.

I think Doug (DCN) wrote a sensitive narrative about the positive attributes of the BRM founders -- and of the solid changes made by Sir Alfred Owen, after it was perceived that a lot of money had been wasted. Sir Alfred Owen did not wish for his money to be spent on holidays. 

My sisters (who will be paying for Vol 4 as a Christmas present) expect Vol 4 to be a pleasure to me. Keep it up, Doug.

May I thank everyone for their interest and input...  and perhaps plead for some peace now?  It will happen when it happens.

DCN

Whatever the timescale of Volume 4, I do hope that it is published with the wording MRP on the spine. The publisher never really receives the credit due for bringing a book into print as I well know.

Do spare a thought and give thanks to the late John Blunsden and his Motor Racing Publications Imprint - a gentleman who brought many worthy titles into print over the years with DCN's BRM volumes probably at the top of the list.

Edited by retriever, 09 April 2017 - 18:48.

OK, OK, just found this wonderful piece.  Fey Nights now?

DCN

What he said ^