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Senna's Toleman for sale ...


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#151 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 11:15

The modern F1 cars don't always need so many people to run them, someone used to race a RAM Hart turbo car in EuroBOSS with just his girlfirend helping.
The problem is people running them like modern cars, they probably have more people looking after them than the teams did when they were current.

The cars with electronic injection are easier to start than the earlier mechanical ones, F3000 DFVs or F1 DFRs don't need someone squirting fuel down the inlets to start them or any fiddling with the mixture control once they've started, just press the button and it fires up like a road car - in fact fitting modern ECUs means they can even drive like a road car at low speeds.

As Lee says the Toleman has to be worth more than a VW6 but it will be harder to use, which is true for any single seater - saying that I have seen a Tyrrell F1 driven round an industrial estate!!

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#152 ensign14

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 11:28

As Lee says the Toleman has to be worth more than a VW6 but it will be harder to use, which is true for any single seater - saying that I have seen a Tyrrell F1 driven round an industrial estate!!

Modern F1 cars can do that too. Every season in Valencia.

#153 bradbury west

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 12:13

...startline of the Goodwood FoS last year. Mephistopholes was driven down to the start and the driver executed a three-point turn and sat there with it ticking over, I won't say quietly but certainly contentedly, waiting for the start. ... You could see which car an owner could take to Oulton for a race meeting ...............


Duncan, you spoil me. The very thought of the above has made my morning.
Roger Lund


#154 mfd

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 14:57

As Lee says the Toleman has to be worth more than a VW6 but it will be harder to use, which is true for any single seater


Certainly, this Toleman is only perceived to have a high value because of the Senna connection. but without it, what is it really worth? I suppose my point about the RS or similar is precisely about the usability & as a consequence, in relative terms the growth (in value) has been better than an F1 car.

#155 RTH

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 15:29

No accounting for taste what made Edvard Munch Scream worth the £74M it has just fetched at auction.

...I would not have given 74p for it.

You could have had 250 old Grand Prix cars for that money.

#156 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 15:44

Certainly, this Toleman is only perceived to have a high value because of the Senna connection. but without it, what is it really worth? I suppose my point about the RS or similar is precisely about the usability & as a consequence, in relative terms the growth (in value) has been better than an F1 car.


Probably a similar amount of money, you don't get much of a TGP type F1 car for that kind of money these days.

Toleman is hardly a bad name, they went on to win several championships (albeit under different names) and are likely to start coming first again (I don't think current F1 events merit the term winning!) this year.
There are a few post TGP cars that might be had for £100k (and they will be from a duff team) but most are similar prices to the RS.

The growth in value of RSs has hardly been a smooth progression, more of a boom & bust type progression (e.g. rapid increase), at some point they will have a 'price correction'.
Personally I'd have a lesser 911 and an F1 car - there are less turbo F1 cars than lightweight RSs and they are a hell of a lot more exciting to play with.

#157 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 15:56

No accounting for taste what made Edvard Munch Scream worth the £74M it has just fetched at auction.

...I would not have given 74p for it.

You could have had 250 old Grand Prix cars for that money.


Especially when it looked like Munch's daughter had knocked it up with her crayons...
At least he didn't get someone else to make it for him like Warhol or Hirst.

But it does show that something that is well known is exceedingly highly valued and Senna's drive at Monaco is something that is well known and remembered - it appears in most people's list of standout F1 memories along with his Donington opening laps, Fangio at the Nurburgring (which wasn't watched by millions on worldwide TV and was some time ago, so is less well known) etc and that is what makes it exceptional.

One problem would be if someone who buys such really expensive paintings (e.g. has an oil well in the back garden/desert) decides to buy old racing cars, he could buy them all and then we'd never see them again.

#158 Thundersports

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 21:16

Peter that RAM Turbo car did have a much smaller Turbo on it though along with other easier to manage parts. It wasn't a bespoke Turbo car like the Toleman is.

#159 Peter Morley

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 23:16

Peter that RAM Turbo car did have a much smaller Turbo on it though along with other easier to manage parts. It wasn't a bespoke Turbo car like the Toleman is.


But an engine is basically a component that is taken out and handed to an engine builder (along with a large wad of money) occasionally, if you're messing around with it at a race meeting you're probably in serious trouble (of course that applies to pretty much any race car).

Presumably the starting/warming up procedure is similar (and nothing like the more modern stuff that won't turn over unless it is thoroughly pre-warmed) and the rest of the car will be similar, so there isn't that much to do in normal situations - Senna's Monaco practice car is used regularly and without obvious difficulty (one huge advantage of turbo cars is it is easy to wind down the boost to increase engine life).

You only have to look at current F1 pitstops to see that you can throw a lot of people at even the most basic operation in F1, but you don't have to do so.
Someone can take a load of mechanics to a race meeting, but that just reduces the amount of time it takes do so something - which isn't usually an issue with old cars (it was different in F3000 when we had 45 mins between qualifying sessions, but we still managed with 2 or 3 mechanics).

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#160 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:35

No accounting for taste what made Edvard Munch Scream worth the £74M it has just fetched at auction.

...I would not have given 74p for it.


Nor me :lol:

Classic case of the 'Emperor's New Clothes' .

#161 Allen Brown

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 20:01

It's time to wake up this thread with an appeal.  I have still not identified all the TG184s but I got a step closer today when one of the three owners agreed with me about the identification of his car.  So of the three TG184s discussed on this thread, two were misidentified.

 

But I am still not quite there.  I am 100% sure about two of the cars but only 80% sure of the third.

 

To complete this, I NEED more pictures of the TG184s from 1984, especially pictures of the cars in the pits, garage or paddock with the bodywork off or at least with the engine cover off. 

 

Can anyone help?  Scanned pictures from books or magazines are fine for this purpose.  Contact me directly at allen@oldracingcars.com if you prefer.


Edited by Allen Brown, 16 October 2014 - 13:31.


#162 E1pix

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 19:33

Sometimes "No" is haunting for a while...

I was commissioned to fly to Long Beach in 1983 to paint and letter the factory Van Diemen Super Vees. In the Convention Center one evening, I was approached by Toleman's Team Manager while lettering for John Andretti, complimenting my work and asking if I wanted to be their sign painter for 1984. Having a solid girlfriend and a thriving business, and being just 22, the concept was beyond me.

Tragic error, Bad E1!

#163 GMACKIE

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 20:39

Mustn't look back, Eric....you'll just get a sore neck. :wave:



#164 JacnGille

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 00:44

Mustn't look back, Eric....you'll just get a sore neck. :wave:

:up:



#165 MoebiusPT

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 10:10

Sorry for the slight thread hijack, but on a related question, who was the sponsor that had red and white stripes on the last race of Senna for Toleman, Estoril 1984?

 

Only Senna's car had that sponsor, the stripes and a kind of snow-flake logo on it, Johanson's car had the standard livery.


Edited by MoebiusPT, 05 October 2014 - 10:10.


#166 E1pix

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 15:31

Good One, Greg!

#167 f1steveuk

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 16:43

Sorry for the slight thread hijack, but on a related question, who was the sponsor that had red and white stripes on the last race of Senna for Toleman, Estoril 1984?

 

Only Senna's car had that sponsor, the stripes and a kind of snow-flake logo on it, Johanson's car had the standard livery.

Wasn't that Magirus Deutz Trucks?



#168 MoebiusPT

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 18:48

Wasn't that Magirus Deutz Trucks?

 

The classical Magirus logo could be described like a lightning hitting an M letter. From my searches, I couldn't match this snow-flake logo to Magirus, although I could be wrong.

 

Magirus-deutz-logo.png

 

-center-toleman-tg184-ayrton-senna-estor


Edited by MoebiusPT, 05 October 2014 - 18:59.


#169 MoebiusPT

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Posted 05 October 2014 - 18:51

Additionally, looking at Johanson's car, on the very same race, he had also the sponsorship of Magirus, but not the "snow-flake" logo embezzled in the car.

 

http://b.f1-facts.com/ul/a/4050


Edited by MoebiusPT, 05 October 2014 - 20:20.


#170 tombe2

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 19:09

Allen,

have you got the pics you need?

I have one from Hockenheim '84, front view with body off.

I have taken it myself, so it is amateurish...

 

Tom



#171 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 October 2014 - 13:24

Allen,

have you got the pics you need?

I have one from Hockenheim '84, front view with body off.

I have taken it myself, so it is amateurish...

 

Tom

 

 

Tom, for some reason I did not see that there had been more posts on this thread.  Yes, a body-off front view from Hockenheim would be immensely useful.  Could you send a copy to allen@oldracingcars.com?  Thanks!

 

My remaining problem is identifying one last car because I don't have a body-off picture of TG184-01.  A picture from the North American races would be especially useful.  



#172 Peter Morley

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 10:39

I understand that there were two Toleman TG184s at the London Classic Car show at Excel.
One was chassis 2, the Senna Monaco car that I was offered by Stefan Johanson many years ago and was offered at auction fairly recently.
The other one apparently had a sign saying it was chassis 1 but Alastair Davidson isn't selling his car.

Was it the Mason car? If so why the same chassis number as the Davidson car?

 



#173 backfire

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 11:21

Peter,

I think I can answer this one. It was the Nick Mason car on Hall & Hall's stand now being described as TG184-01 (more accurately a bitsa built around chassis 01) after years of masquerading as 02. The other car was the real deal ex Senna Monaco car TG184-02 displayed on the Prindeville stand. Apparently Alastair Davidson's car has been re-identified as 05, the end of season Senna race car. This still leaves the whereabouts of the Cecotto TG184-03 a mystery. 



#174 dolomite

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 22:00

Here we go again.... http://www.pitpass.c...an-goes-on-sale



#175 john aston

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 05:57

So the car driven by Senna at Monaco is worth less than a McLaren P1 or a Veyron and is worth only about 40%more than Steve McQueen 's overalls ? But I love The Scream - a copy is glaring at me now  ...



#176 Peter Morley

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 15:32

Similar price to one of those extremely rare Mercedes 300SLs of which they only made about 3,250 examples!

 

Veyron's are cheaper if they've been used and cost considerably more to run, a complete Toleman engine rebuild is comparable to a Veyron oil change!



#177 gammel2002

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 10:51

Hello

i am new member of this forum  - i live in Denmark

i have the Toleman Rover in my collection - i am also confused about what is what - i bought the car app 16 years ago at Autosport in Birmingham - it was a late entry - not in catalogue - nobody really knew what is was

with the car came papers confirming it was the Pete Hammond car and also papers from when it was with Nick Mason

would be happy if any can help what it really is - it shows clear markings of having been fitted with a chassis plate -

what have I ???



#178 backfire

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 12:19

I understand that Pete Hammond bought a pile of ex Toleman parts including unidentified 183 and 184 tubs (it would seem that a lot of Tolemans were stripped of their chassis plates before disposal, except the genuine 184-2). Hammond used the 184 to build a Libre car using the Rover V8 - the car only appeared once at Brands, I think.

Nick Mason acquired the lot through a dealer who claimed that the tub in the Rover car was the "Monaco" 184-02. Thinking this was true, Mason recreated the 184 as chassis 02 and rebuilt the Libre car around the similar 183 chassis as a usable car for his Ten Tenths film hire business. That's the car you obviously have although I can shed no light on the identity of the 183 tub. 



#179 Thundersports

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 21:28

http://www.bonhams.c..._release/25745/



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#180 TennisUK

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 23:44

Single seaters represent very good value compared to sports cars (in a sense) at auction. Given the provenance of cars like this, and the fact that they fall between sports cars and fine art in their usability(!), but considerably behind sports cars in their value - it is peculiar that they trail behind sports cars on that axis.



#181 Charlieman

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 12:28

The auction price for a car such as Senna's Toleman is determined by a tiny market. At any time, there might be two or three collections with available funds and desire to own it. When selling a high profile sports/GT car, the auction house has a list of dozens of people to tickle even before they promote the sale more widely by offering a test drive to a journalist.

 

Given that this is TNF, we should appreciate and recognise nostalgia in others. High price sports/GT cars tend to be sold to rich people of an age to have had bedroom wall posters of them as a teenager. Now that they are rich, they can buy one as an asset and/or to race for themselves teamed up with a professional driver. A potential downside of this is that some people go historic racing for themselves rather than sponsoring a local lad or lass in junior classes -- or even expensive fun classes of old such as super saloons.

 

It is not entirely rational but I can imagine that business partners might perceive racing in a sports/GT car to be safer than in a single seater. In the day, two litre Group 6 cars and even F2 cars were designed to accommodate professional and amateur drivers. To me, they have always seemed less likely to have a silly accident with a low experience driver than a monster power GT car.

 

As discussed above in several comments, racing opportunities for 1.5 litre turbo F1 cars and their successors are limited. I suspect that some cars are too proprietary to run in their original state without manufacturer assistance -- for now at least. Others could be racing as historics run by a small crew -- power limited at suitable tracks. Historic plane enthusiasts created a market for replacement avionics systems.

 

I started to read this thread years ago and I'm no clearer now about the provenance of the Senna Toleman. I don't know whether it is the car I watched on the BBC at Monaco in 1984 -- sometimes I question the BBC's viewing figures owing to the number of people who remember the day. It was not so much a race as press on in self belief to beat the odds of losing grip at the wrong place. If I controlled funds for a Senna collection, the most likely buyer for this car, I'd like a more solid trail of ownership. Otherwise it's a bitsa Toleman similar to the one from Monaco 1984.



#182 f1steveuk

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 15:15

Interesting that, no where in Bonhams press release do they quote a chassis number. Wonder why?



#183 Thundersports

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 16:00

Interesting that, no where in Bonhams press release do they quote a chassis number. Wonder why?

Perhaps it's the car that hasn't got one!



#184 backfire

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 19:03

It's the car I was involved with until it was sold in 2016 to the current owner, an important American in F1 and sports cars. It is 100% the real deal.



#185 Thundersports

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Posted 17 March 2018 - 19:34

It's the real one. 



#186 jcbc3

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 09:21

It's the car I was involved with until it was sold in 2016 to the current owner, an important American in F1 and sports cars. It is 100% the real deal.


So the chassis no. is?

#187 backfire

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 12:14

184-02



#188 beesa71

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 13:26

And how please is that indicated/verified on the tub?

#189 backfire

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 14:02

By the chassis plate, see my photographs in page 1 of this thread. After it's sale in late 2016, I am no longer involved with the car but can confirm that the car was previously bought from Stefan Johansson in 1994 and he was given the car, which he raced in the latter part of the season, by Toleman.

With the 1994 sale, letters of verification were issued by Stefan and Alex Hawridge. The car was also verified in 2010 by ex Toleman mechanic, Greg Field and co-designer Pat Symonds.


Edited by backfire, 18 March 2018 - 17:40.


#190 mfd

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Posted 01 April 2018 - 12:35

Post #135



#191 Giraffe

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 10:36

sOD6Bj.jpg[/IMG]

 

Here is the car pictured in it's current home in Yorkshire when I was visiting 12 months ago.



#192 mfd

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 11:07

I wouldn't be surprised if that is replaced by a red & white Senna car



#193 backfire

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 13:43

I wouldn't be surprised if that is replaced by a red & white Senna car

Well, the current owner of the Toleman also owns a black and gold Senna car and I understood he was negotiating for a red and white one when he bought TG184-2 in 2016. Mind you, if any body could get his hands on a red and white one, you would have thought he could.



#194 Giraffe

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Posted 02 April 2018 - 17:16



Well, the current owner of the Toleman also owns a black and gold Senna car and I understood he was negotiating for a red and white one when he bought TG184-2 in 2016. Mind you, if any body could get his hands on a red and white one, you would have thought he could.

At the time of my visit (March 2017), there were only two other ex-Senna cars to be seen......

 



#195 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 21:38

Some pictures courtesy of DCN. Strictly copyright © GP Library.

 

GPL_SENNA_TOLEMAN_MONACO_2018_-_7.jpg

 

GPL_SENNA_TOLEMAN_MONACO_2018_1.jpg

 

GPL_SENNA_TOLEMAN_MONACO_2018_2.jpg

 

GPL_SENNA_TOLEMAN_MONACO_2018_3.jpg

 

GPL_SENNA_TOLEMAN_MONACO_2018_4.jpg

 

GPL_SENNA_TOLEMAN_MONACO_2018_5.jpg

 

 

GPL_SENNA_TOLEMAN_MONACO_2018_6.jpg

 

 



#196 PAUL S

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 16:40

Are we talking of a certain ZB as the seller of the Toleman and potential purchaser of the Mclaren at the same auction?

 

If so I recently tried to get a message to him about another of his cars via an F1 owner but nothing has come back.


Edited by PAUL S, 16 May 2018 - 16:43.


#197 RS250

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 17:14

Has the purchaser of the McLaren been confirmed yet?
Despite what seems like everybody assuming Zak Brown would be the buyer it seems Bernie was the winning bidder.
Can anybody confirm this?

#198 Hati

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 19:09

Can anybody confirm this?

 

Local news said Saturday that Bernie bought the car and sited motorsport.com as a source.



#199 mfd

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 20:21

Yes Ecclestone bought the MP4-8 - Autosport ran the story after the Auction.


Edited by mfd, 16 May 2018 - 20:22.


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#200 TennisUK

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Posted 18 May 2018 - 10:37

Are we talking of a certain ZB as the seller of the Toleman and potential purchaser of the Mclaren at the same auction?

If so I recently tried to get a message to him about another of his cars via an F1 owner but nothing has come back.


Via Flemke?