Who would you trust the most and who you wouldn´t trust to go wheel to wheel with?

After some years of watching these guys, you can see patterns emerging on their racing. So tell your view on this one: who would you go side by side with full confidence, and who would make you nervous? Not only on the current grid, feel free to add other drivers that you had seen. Add some reasons if you can, like good/bad patterns repeating in their fights. I´ll have a go:

Wouldn´t trust:

Mark Webber. I´ve seen from him over the years a lot of times some annoying stuff when he´s about to be passed. He passes alright, doesn´t divebomb, but he´s a pain to try and pass. Waits too much to cover the inside line when he´s being slipstreamed, pushes people already alongside to the grass on the straights, refuses to respond to other´s direction changes when he has already his nose behind, tendency to try and get alongside even if he´ll poke only half a nose in there, tends to turn in even when he´s not sure if there´s still some part of the rival alongside... Really hard to predict and annoying if you ask me.

Takuma Sato. The opposite problem. He defended fairly, but he tried impossible moves/failed to get his braking points right in close company of others too often. It´s like having a Kobayashi behind you but without that mysterious ability to keep his line after late braking (most of times anyway).

JPM. The guy was a master wheel to wheel. I admired him, because he would sign the best passing maneuvres you would see. Agressive, most of times fair... but would lose his temper and start doing silly things too often. While he was calmed he would race properly but sometimes the must pass mentality (and the won´t get passed one too) would pop out and he would mess up. He defenitely had the skill, but wouldn´t always use it.

Maldonado. His worst moments have come from poor decission making. I think he HAS the skill to race, but he´s not smart enough to understand when he´s been beaten. Another example of the "must pass" mindset. I think there´s hope for him, it´s not as if he lacked anything, he just had the wrong mindset sometimes.

Grosjean. Different kind of crashes than Pastor. He doesn´t crahs because he makes silly decissions, but he seems to lack the ability to race closely. He won´t turn in on you to block or anything, but he might mot even know you´re there at all.


Would especially trust:

Jenson Button. He´s so fair that he´s too fair sometimes, if that exists. Will always notice you, and give you your car´s width and some more. You´ll rarely seeing try and overoptimistic move.

Kimi Räikkönen: He´s fair too, but Button edges him in this aspect, because Kimi is not that gentle: he´ll push you wide if he´s entitled to, and does push his luck further keeping his feet on a pass attempt further than Jenson. Still really trustworthy: Won´t ever try a divebomb, and understands when you cover the inside there´s no point insisting on that route: he will happily set for a better run out of the corner or a pass around the outside.

Nico Rosberg: he has gone from one extreme to another on my mind since his debut. In 2006 he looked a bit of a hot head that wouldn´t ever yield, but over the years he had rarely get involved in crashes, and when involved, he won´t usually be at fault. Wouldn´t point my finger on any special reason why, but I have that feeling you can trust him.

I think you are being a bit harsh on webber there particularly the last few yrs as he hasn't been penalised for anything and any contact has had blame also on the other driver meaning a racing incident.

But, in his mid career I think you have a point (thinking kimi brazil??). I think he had a great rep for defending back in his jag days and it went to his head a bit and sometimes he took it that bit too far, but not recently.

Good thread. I'd trust Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton, Rosberg, Button etc in a wheel to wheel fight.

Wouldnt trust Grosjean, Perez, Vettel, Maldonado, Webber, Schumacher to not plow into me or run me off the road when dicing wheel to wheel.

Would trust: Button

Wouldn't: Perez, Webber

The mention of Rosberg reminded me Bahrain 2012.

everybody except Maldonado, Grosjean, and maybe Hulkenberg.... Fail....

Would trust: Hamilton, Raikkonen, Button, Alonso. <<< These guys give space wheel to wheel



Would NOT trust: Maldonado, Webber, Vergne, Riccardo, Senna <<< Mannerisms in wheel to wheel situations are not great.

wouldn't trust: Hamilton, Maldonado, Perez, Webber, Grosjean
would trust: Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher, Raikkonen

After some years of watching these guys, you can see patterns emerging on their racing. So tell your view on this one: who would you go side by side with full confidence, and who would make you nervous? Not only on the current grid, feel free to add other drivers that you had seen. Add some reasons if you can, like good/bad patterns repeating in their fights. I´ll have a go:

(...)

Good topic, and I wouldn't add or take away a word from all the drivers you mentioned, I pretty much agree with your assessment on all of them.

I'd like to timidly suggest (because this may open up an ugly can of worms, and I don't want to go that way) a name I wouldn't have wanted to go wheel-to-wheel against, and that's Ayrton Senna. He's the guy that everyone credits for pushing the limits of what was seen as an acceptable defence... he wasn't dangerous like a Maldonado but would try to bully you. Michael Schumacher on his peak years was very much the same.

As for other good clean drivers, Fernando Alonso has a hint of the bully, but is quite a fair driver for the current era and you can be certain he won't crash you out; Nick Heidfeld had FANTASTIC racecraft both at overtaking and defending in a clean way; and I'm increasingly impressed by Nico Hulkenberg.

I would be more worried with most of the newer guys, maybe Schumacher and a couple of others too, pretty simple really.

Would trust: Raikkonen, Button, Alonso, Schumacher

Wouldn't trust: Webber, Hamilton, Vettel, Maldonado, Perez, Kobayashi, Senna, Karthikeyan, Petrov, Grosjean

I think you are being a bit harsh on webber there particularly the last few yrs as he hasn't been penalised for anything and any contact has had blame also on the other driver meaning a racing incident.

He still gets involved in way too much trouble recently.

All I can remember from 2009 on: In Spain 2009 he put Alonso on the grass when he was already alongside in main straight. In Nurburgring 2009 he tried to scare Rubens that was 100% alongside to lift on the start and they touched then he punctured Lewis´ tyre. In Brazil 2009 he choped across too late and wipe Räikkönen´s nose in the start. Oz 2010 he did a stupid move on Lewis and punted him out. Valencia 2010 he failed to understand a slow car in front would brake much earlier and went over him. Then there´s the Turkey incident. Singapore 2010 he tried to hold a place by keeping half a nose inside Lewis again (sure, Lewis turned in anyway, but putting half your nose there is not smart). In Monza 2011 his incident with Massa was not nice again. In Abu 2012 he turned into Maldonado.

And I´m sure I missed other stuff, I can´t remember these crazy recent season races too well.

Senna <<< Mannerisms in wheel to wheel situations are not great.

Mansell was the only one with the balls to go wheel-to-wheel with Senna and not flinch.

Edited by BoschKurve, 12 December 2012 - 17:20.

The mention of Rosberg reminded me Bahrain 2012.

Good point mate. Will have to keep an eye on him.

Kimi - trust

Edited by bourbon, 12 December 2012 - 17:22.

Schumacher during his career went wheel-to-wheel more times than rest of them on today's grid together, and without incident. It was his era, when close racing was possible, and done. In inaugural race at Indianapolis he went in high speed into twisty section wheel-to-wheel with DC, and managed to lift almost everybody out of their seats in appreciation. To say now that one shouldn't trust him I think indicates not much knowledge of his past.

I trust: Schumacher
I do not trust: the list of names is simply too long

Edited by Sakae, 12 December 2012 - 18:36.

Schumacher during his career went wheel-to-wheel more times than rest of them on today's grid together, and without incident. It was his era, when close racing was possible, and done. In inaugural race at Indianapolis he went in high speed into twisty section wheel-to-wheel with DC, and managed to lift almost everybody out of their seats in appreciation. To say now that one shouldn't trust him I think indicates not much knowledge of his past.

I trust: Schumacher
I do not trust: the list of names is simply too long

It always takes two to tango. Do not forget that.

Schumacher during his career went wheel-to-wheel more times than rest of them on today's grid together, and without incident. It was his era, when close racing was possible, and done. In inaugural race at Indianapolis he went in high speed into twisty section wheel-to-wheel with DC, and managed to lift almost everybody out of their seats in appreciation. To say now that one shouldn't trust him I think indicates not much knowledge of his past.

I trust: Schumacher
I do not trust: the list of names is simply too long

Ha ha ha ha.

The question wasn't 'who would you trust if you were Vettel'.

Edited by stanga, 12 December 2012 - 18:55.

5 I'd trust:

Webber - That dice into Eau Rouge gives him a free pass to claim the next 5 crashes he's in weren't his fault.
Massa - Got this whole passing/being passed lark down, like vs. Senna in that alleyway in Singapore. All else fails I'll paint my car red and have no trouble.
Raikkonen - He knows what he's doing, provided we're not in Brazil.
Glock - No particular reason, he just always seems a fair guy in wheel-to-wheel fights.
Karthikeyan - Only passing when lapping him twice every race, and even a broken clock is right twice a day.

5 I wouldn't trust:

Perez - Still really young and can't seem to control himself in tight spots, like Bambi standing up for the first time, except on cocaine.
Senna - It's hard to dice wheel-to-wheel with someone who thinks the best place for his hands to be are waving frantically at you for daring to pass him.
di Resta - the suffocating aura of characterless melancholy might infect me if I get too close, causing me to crash into the barriers in an attempt to avoid it.
Maldonado - Past his crashing ways, but now is so scared of a ban he'll still crash. Like a barely-drunk guy crashing his car looking over his shoulder for cops.
Ricciardo - Wouldn't trust that guy to buy me a pack of Camels. No one that spells their name so far from the way they pronounce it can be up to any good.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 12 December 2012 - 19:09.

I trust Raikkonen, Button and Alonso more than any of the other drivers on the grid.

I wouldn't trust Maldonado or Grosjean one bit. I don't particularly trust Schumacher or Senna either, but in a different way.

Trust; Alonso, Button and Kimi are particularly fair at both passing and being passed. Hamilton is pretty good at both, but has made a few mistakes while passing. If anybody doubts whether Lewis is a clean racer, just look at all of the excellent, clean battles that him and Jenson have had. (And forget the one where Lewis crashed into Jenson in the wet. )

Do not trust; Scumacher has excellent knowledge of where his or your car are, but there are just too many incidents. In his past he has pushed a fair few people off into retirement.
Webber is bad at running people off the road. Not a clean racer.
Maldonaldo and Grosjean are terrible at both passing and being passed. Both of them need a good kick in the balls. And then probably another one for good measure.

I wouldnt trust Perez , Massa and Maldonado. Massa especially is so difficult to pass

Trust; Alonso, Button and Kimi are particularly fair at both passing and being passed. Hamilton is pretty good at both, but has made a few mistakes while passing. If anybody doubts whether Lewis is a clean racer, just look at all of the excellent, clean battles that him and Jenson have had. (And forget the one where Lewis crashed into Jenson in the wet. )

Do not trust; Scumacher has excellent knowledge of where his or your car are, but there are just too many incidents. In his past he has pushed a fair few people off into retirement.
Webber is bad at running people off the road. Not a clean racer.
Maldonaldo and Grosjean are terrible at both passing and being passed. Both of them need a good kick in the balls. And then probably another one for good measure.

Alone Hamilton pushed more drivers (Massa;)) into retirement in 2011 than Schumacher in his whole carrier. We are talking about wheel to wheel actions and as we seen in his last race Schumacher knows where his cars belongs and where not. Other than his on track (intentional) failures in title deciders I can't recall stupid mistakes (like Hill for instance in 1995) he made in his first career.

I trust: Kimi, Button, Vettel, Alonso

I do not trust: Perez, Grosjean, Maldonado, Senna

The others, somewhere in between

Schumacher during his career went wheel-to-wheel more times than rest of them on today's grid together, and without incident. It was his era, when close racing was possible, and done. In inaugural race at Indianapolis he went in high speed into twisty section wheel-to-wheel with DC, and managed to lift almost everybody out of their seats in appreciation. To say now that one shouldn't trust him I think indicates not much knowledge of his past.

I trust: Schumacher

Schumacher is capable of anything: realising he´s lost they place and lift into 130R to avoid a crash, navigate through a sea of midfield cars brillaintly in a start... but also not realising he´s lost the inside for the next corner and keep pushing you for no reason, or come back to the racing line in your face after having defended.

He would be closer to the trust list than to the not trust list in my view, but he has some bizarre moments that take away from him.

JPM. The guy was a master wheel to wheel. I admired him, because he would sign the best passing maneuvres you would see. Agressive, most of times fair... but would lose his temper and start doing silly things too often. While he was calmed he would race properly but sometimes the must pass mentality (and the won´t get passed one too) would pop out and he would mess up. He defenitely had the skill, but wouldn´t always use it.

Montoya a "master wheel to wheel??" He refused to accept the battle had been lost! I remember DC passing him round the outside, Nürburgring '02, but Montoya lost the rear as he braked a country mile too late which locked the rears. The conversation afterwards was funny, with DC "congratulating" him. Couldn't find it on Youtube now.

Räikkönen is fair, and awake in wheel-to-wheel battles and I would think most people, forumers and the actual F1-drivers, would name him as the safest to dice with.

Least safe to battle with, probably Perez IMO.

Montoya a "master wheel to wheel??" He refused to accept the battle had been lost! I remember DC passing him round the outside, Nürburgring '02, but Montoya lost the rear as he braked a country mile too late which locked the rears. The conversation afterwards was funny, with DC "congratulating" him. Couldn't find it on Youtube now.

I remember the incident, and lots of other mistakes from him. But I reckon his ability was there. Remember the scrap with Kimi in Hockenheim? The defense against Michael in Silverstone? The pass on Schumacher in Brazil?? The guy had the skills, no doubt. Yes, he would mess up lots of times when he went mad, but he HAD the skill to race. In the end we say the same, he´s on my "not trust" list, but I just think it´s fair to admit he was skilled.

He was sort of a Lewis Hamilton in the way he raced: extremelly good on the brakes, very brave, but would mess up too often and push his luck too far.

Its an interesting topic. A very good point is made above that it takes two to tango. A few people have mentioned Schumi as someone they either would trust, or someone they would not. Generally speaking, and he made a few mistakes in his second career that go outside of this, Schumi racing wheel to wheel with someone who knows what they are doing is fine. But he sometimes maybe expected too much from lesser racers, pushed them too hard and there was an incident.

With that in mind, I would trust Kimi and Button most of all out of the current crop. I can't recall seeing Heikki or Helkenberg doing anything strange either.

In the not trust camp would be Maldonado after his incidents with Hamilton and Perez, and maybe Senna too as I think F1 is too much for him. Grosjean is fine as long as it isn't the start of the race.

Have people forgotten the hideous way Rosberg defended from Alonso and Hamilton in Bahrain?

Yeah.. no thanks.

5 I'd trust:

Webber - That dice into Eau Rouge gives him a free pass to claim the next 5 crashes he's in weren't his fault.
Massa - Got this whole passing/being passed lark down, like vs. Senna in that alleyway in Singapore. All else fails I'll paint my car red and have no trouble.
Raikkonen - He knows what he's doing, provided we're not in Brazil.
Glock - No particular reason, he just always seems a fair guy in wheel-to-wheel fights.
Karthikeyan - Only passing when lapping him twice every race, and even a broken clock is right twice a day.

5 I wouldn't trust:

Perez - Still really young and can't seem to control himself in tight spots, like Bambi standing up for the first time, except on cocaine.
Senna - It's hard to dice wheel-to-wheel with someone who thinks the best place for his hands to be are waving frantically at you for daring to pass him.
di Resta - the suffocating aura of characterless melancholy might infect me if I get too close, causing me to crash into the barriers in an attempt to avoid it.
Maldonado - Past his crashing ways, but now is so scared of a ban he'll still crash. Like a barely-drunk guy crashing his car looking over his shoulder for cops.
Ricciardo - Wouldn't trust that guy to buy me a pack of Camels. No one that spells their name so far from the way they pronounce it can be up to any good.

You must be joking, Massa is a nightmare he thinks he can turn in on everyone.

Mansell was the only one with the balls to go wheel-to-wheel with Senna and not flinch.

I think he meant Bruno.

Schumacher is capable of anything: realising he´s lost they place and lift into 130R to avoid a crash, navigate through a sea of midfield cars brillaintly in a start... but also not realising he´s lost the inside for the next corner and keep pushing you for no reason, or come back to the racing line in your face after having defended.

He would be closer to the trust list than to the not trust list in my view, but he has some bizarre moments that take away from him.

I thought that we are discussing two cars racing side by side (wheel to wheel), and not individual race tactics. Schumacher can drive half meter apart from you and will not touch you.

Edited by Sakae, 12 December 2012 - 20:22.

I think he meant Bruno.

Greg vs. Bruno?

I thought that we are discussing two cars racing side by side (wheel to wheel), and not individual race tactics.

All I want is people to say how they think about drivers after years watching them doing close racing. The only source (and it´s perfectly enough) we have to judge is what they´ve done racing other people over the years. Every moment counts. Of course it´s stupid to talk bad about a driver because of one incident, but if the guy has a bit of history pulling a certain stunt, it´s exactly the thing we should be talking about.

I remember the incident, and lots of other mistakes from him. But I reckon his ability was there. Remember the scrap with Kimi in Hockenheim? The defense against Michael in Silverstone? The pass on Schumacher in Brazil?? The guy had the skills, no doubt. Yes, he would mess up lots of times when he went mad, but he HAD the skill to race. In the end we say the same, he´s on my "not trust" list, but I just think it´s fair to admit he was skilled.

He was sort of a Lewis Hamilton in the way he raced: extremelly good on the brakes, very brave, but would mess up too often and push his luck too far.

Mmmyeah, the ability was there, but the un-willingness to accept defeat won over that ability too often. I actually think the scrap with Räikkönen wasn't too clean from Montoya's side, 'cause he did let his car stray too much outwards, to push Räikkönen a little. It was a great battle, but I think it could've been played fairer.
...I wonder if Massa has played that over and over btw, 'cause he tackles wheel-to-wheel battles like that all the time. Not good.

Mmmyeah, the ability was there, but the un-willingness to accept defeat won over that ability too often. I actually think the scrap with Räikkönen wasn't too clean from Montoya's side, 'cause he did let his car stray too much outwards, to push Räikkönen a little. It was a great battle, but I think it could've been played fairer.

Hey, if you´re on the outside and with your nose behind, you know what you´re exposing yourself to ;)

That´s perfectly OK for me. It was OK for Montoya too (only when he was on the inside, if he was the one pushed wide he would call people blind and stupid ).

Hey, if you´re on the outside and with your nose behind, you know what you´re exposing yourself to ;)

That´s perfectly OK for me. It was OK for Montoya too (only when he was on the inside, if he was the one pushed wide he would call people blind and stupid ).

Part of the game perhaps

We've seen Räikkönen taking the long way round the outside several times this year, and he's a total master in just being able to stick to it there, and eventually pulling past.

5 I'd trust:

Webber - That dice into Eau Rouge gives him a free pass to claim the next 5 crashes he's in weren't his fault.
Massa - Got this whole passing/being passed lark down, like vs. Senna in that alleyway in Singapore. All else fails I'll paint my car red and have no trouble.
Raikkonen - He knows what he's doing, provided we're not in Brazil.
Glock - No particular reason, he just always seems a fair guy in wheel-to-wheel fights.
Karthikeyan - Only passing when lapping him twice every race, and even a broken clock is right twice a day.

5 I wouldn't trust:

Perez - Still really young and can't seem to control himself in tight spots, like Bambi standing up for the first time, except on cocaine.
Senna - It's hard to dice wheel-to-wheel with someone who thinks the best place for his hands to be are waving frantically at you for daring to pass him.
di Resta - the suffocating aura of characterless melancholy might infect me if I get too close, causing me to crash into the barriers in an attempt to avoid it.
Maldonado - Past his crashing ways, but now is so scared of a ban he'll still crash. Like a barely-drunk guy crashing his car looking over his shoulder for cops.
Ricciardo - Wouldn't trust that guy to buy me a pack of Camels. No one that spells their name so far from the way they pronounce it can be up to any good.

You have got Massa and di Resta in the wrong groups.

How many times did Massa and Hamilton come together last year.

And has di Resta had any incidents while passing or being passed? There can't have been many.

Have people forgotten the hideous way Rosberg defended from Alonso and Hamilton in Bahrain?

Yeah.. no thanks.

The only hideous thing about that was the embarrasing crying in the radio. It was fair and square, if you look at it closely.

I really can't think of a situation where I would have to go wheel-to-wheel with any of the F1-drivers.

5 I'd trust:

Webber - That dice into Eau Rouge gives him a free pass to claim the next 5 crashes he's in weren't his fault.

I'm confused. Are you giving Webber credit for the fact that Alonso backed out?

And has di Resta had any incidents while passing or being passed? There can't have been many.

I think the only time he's hit someone was Heidfeld last year, other than that I can't recall any.

And I agree Crossmax, the Webber at Eau Rouge says more about Webber's trust in Alonso than the other way around.

Kimi - trust

And Button.

Two of the best at wheel to wheel.

Says its all.

The interesting distinction implicit in many of the posts is who can you trust skill-wise, and who can you trust intention-wise. Perversely, the one who knows exactly where the line is, is the one that can transgress and screw you up just enough, if so inclined.

Says its all.

Yup, that was a great and fair overtaking battle between two WDCs.

Yeah.. it wasn't a serious list. I thought the fact I had Ricciardo as distrustful because of his name would've made that pretty clear.

Would trust: Kimi, Button, Alonso and Kovalainen

Wouldn't trust: Grosjean,Perez,Maldonado,Kobayashi,Massa,Schumacher and not too much Hamilton either.

The interesting distinction implicit in many of the posts is who can you trust skill-wise, and who can you trust intention-wise. Perversely, the one who knows exactly where the line is, is the one that can transgress and screw you up just enough, if so inclined.

Good distinction.
I think drivers you can trust are drivers that fulfill both criteria, ie both skill-wise and intention-wise.

OTOH the drivers you don't trust are either not so skilled at wheel to wheel racing or intentionally drive over the limits.


I would trust Kimi, Alonso, Button, Hamilton (despite the occasional brainfade). I would even go as far as say that JPM was to be trusted, most of the time I think he was clean on track.

Drivers I don't trust would be Maldonado and Grosjean.

Trust: Alonso, Button, Kimi, Villeneuve (both), Mika, Rosberg, Mansell, Hill, HHF, Panis...

Not to be trusted: M. Schumacher, Giovanna Amati, Yuji Ide, Esteban Tuero, Norberto Fontana, Alex Yoong, Takuma Sato,

I definitely wouldn't trust Schumacher. Even at his peak he had flashes of incompetence while in close vicinity to other cars, and for pretty much his whole career his intimidation tactics in close quarters bordered on homicidal.