Have all the driver replacements made you lose enthusiasm?

The sheer number of good midfeild drivers that have gone missing in 2013 has pretty much wiped out what enthusiasm I had for 2013.

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari. All seemingly out of the sport way before retirement age.

To be replaced with:

Razia, Chilton, Van Der Garde, Gutierrez, possibly Bianchi or a return of the mediocre Sutil or Senna. Who are most of these people?

Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

I'm all for rookies getting a chance after a testing role, like Bottas is, but this seems like a return to the nouveau pay-drivers, where guys don't get a career but only a few seasons written out by cheque.

Kovalainen was no good,i wont miss him same with Glock and Algy.

On the other hand Koba and Petrov have some real talent and it will be a real shame not to see them on track anymore.

Return of Sutil would add some interest,good way to gage if DiResta has progressed.Sutil is a solid driver.

I'll really miss Kobayashi. The rest of them were fairly anonymous anyway right at the back.

I'm not really keen on any of the rookies except Gutierrez and Bottas, but at least none of them will be out of their depth.

I will only really miss Kamui and Jaime, the other 3 weren't really on my radar to begin with. I kind of miss Petrov because of his personality, but I definitely don't rate Kovalainen.

I am looking forward to Max Chilton (if only because he is eye candy ) but the rest are rather anonymous. That said, I care for roughly only half the grid. So it will not make much of a difference who the drivers brought in to fulfil the 22 car requirement are. If they bring money to help the team, all the better for the team.

I think that though Romain and Di Resta may look bad against their respective team mates, they are just as good as the Glocks of the world (and better than the Kovalainens), so I have no real problems with them staying put. I don't think it is reasonable to expect the quality of all 22 drivers on the grid to be on the same level, so it is just a matter of personal preference from midfield down to the lower teams.

Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

Your "good midfield driver" Petrov lost by 109 points and scored less than 20% of Kubica's points in his first season.

Grosjean looked faster than Raikonnen in half the races last year,he was just inconsistent like most rookies.

I think he deserves one more year but he must score 3/4 of Raikonnens points this year and show a level head.

with Glock gone there are just 3 german drivers left, that is why I would prefer if Force India picks Sutil, I like those german drivers, the last german drivers I didn't like were Ralf Schumacher and even in his first career Michael Schumacher, who I first grew to like when he was with Mercedes.

I think its great that Grosjean stayed I think he has potential and deserves another chance...

Besides of that I will miss Petrov, Senna and Kobayashi, yeah I think its sad that so many new people are out on the track D: but there need to be new people in F1 someday...

Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

Lol, Massa has stayed on for THREE years despite always being more than 100 points behind his team-mate and scoring less than 50% of his team-mates points in the last two years.

As long as Massa holds onto his drive, I can't complain about others being unworthy.

Edited by sopa, 02 February 2013 - 07:38.

i feel sorry for Kamui. The rest i really don't care.

Grosjean looked faster than Raikonnen in half the races last year,he was just inconsistent like most rookies.

I think he deserves one more year but he must score 3/4 of Raikonnens points this year and show a level head.

BS.

I only remember kimi trashing him on race despite starting further down in races where he didnt retire.

Some people like to twist fact with generalization.

No because I support a team. Who gives the team good results isn't really important...

BS.

I only remember kimi trashing him on race despite starting further down in races where he didnt retire.

Some people like to twist fact with generalization.

It was 9-9 in qualy and grosjean was caught out by rain a couple of times.Unfortunately he crashed so early we never got to see his true speed in most of his races but theres no doubt he was fast.

I'll miss Glock (fighter), Kobayashi (showed talent) and Sutil (good driver imho) if he won't be at FI. I'm not very optimistic for the new drivers except Bottas. From my point of view, the quality has gone down compared to last year.

In particular, the lineup of the "new" teams is weak - even if they get closer in car performance, which is to be expected, I'm not sure the car+driver package will be close enough to be interesting. I don't think those teams help talented drivers at all as a first step in the F1 career ladder, which is sad.

Edited by apoka, 02 February 2013 - 08:15.

there's still hope for Kamui in Force India, hopefull they pick him up. I heard he can bring 8m euro to the team.

The number of driver changes does nothing for me. However I'm very disappointed to see good drivers like Petrov and Kobaybashi get replaced by completely talentless wastemen like Chilton and Van der Garde only because they are complete paydrivers.

Pay drivers have always been part of F1 so that I'm not fussed about.

Half the circuits being the same, hideously disproportionate cars, interventionist stewarding, comical tyres and faux-overtaking devices are much more enthusiasm-sapping.

I agree we've lost several good drivers, sadly to be replaced by seemingly mediocre ones, but I will gladly welcome Sutil back. He's fast and solid, and there on his own merits mainly (yes, he's got a small sponsor-portfolio with him), but guys like Van Der Garde and Guiterrez...... very un-inspiring driver choices who's only in F1 because they've got big companies behind them. As we all know.

Dull circuits; suffocating rules; stability of rules; aero over engine etc do it for me.

Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

Yes, Felipe Massa.

Lol, Massa has stayed on for THREE years despite always being more than 100 points behind his team-mate and scoring less than 50% of his team-mates points in the last two years.

As long as Massa holds onto his drive, I can't complain about others being unworthy.

Exactly what I thought.

As for the answer @topic - I will particularly miss Kobayashi and Petrov. Kovalainen is not bad either, same for Glock - they went for a hazardous choice when joining these new teams and as it turns out it was a dead end. It's extremely hard to show your value at the end of the grid. I'm not very happy about the current situation, but more or less accept that this is the way things are right now.

Edited by Anja, 02 February 2013 - 09:14.

In answer to the thread title: Not really. If anything a bunch of new drivers makes things more interesting for me.

Your "good midfield driver" Petrov lost by 109 points and scored less than 20% of Kubica's points in his first season.

The first thing which popped into my mind too. It's amazing how quickly people forget these things when they improve the next season.

So we have some "unknowns" coming in to the series.

All drivers were "unknowns" at some point - Kamui, Heikki etc.

Heikki barely beat Petrov last year and then got all huffy about a new contract.
Kamui was in the shadow of Sergio last year and had some pretty torrid races.
Losing Timo is unfortunate, but his career was over anyway, wrong choice going to Manor/Virgin/Marussia
Vitaly could of had a seat, but as I understand it he's run out of money.

Grosjean's crashes were totally overblown last year, yes he did cause some and make mistakes, but many were not his fault. He has lots of raw speed and seemingly decent racecraft. He needs a bit less pressure and I think he will come good.

As for the answer @topic - I will particularly miss Kobayashi and Petrov. Kovalainen is not bad either, same for Glock - they went for a hazardous choice when joining these new teams and as it turns out it was a dead end. It's extremely hard to show your value at the end of the grid. I'm not very happy about the current situation, but more or less accept that this is the way things are right now.

Kobayashi is the most unfortunate of these to lose his seat. He had three full seasons, which is not too bad, but he still has unfulfilled potential IMO. Petrov also had three seasons, but I am not as convinced by him. Kovalainen has had six seasons and over 100 starts. He possibly could do well in a midfield or top team, but there is no point in having him in a backmarker team anymore. He has had a decent length F1 career. Glock has had five seasons (plus a few Jordan outings), and I think the same comment applies.

These are all good drivers, but I get the feeling that in midfield and backmarker teams, you are either on the way up or the way down (i.e. out). What drivers have held long term drives in midfield teams in recent years? There are not too many upward positions available either (only Perez and Grosjean have broken into the top teams in the last three to four years, not counting Petrov, Heidfeld, Senna at Renault). Even when the second drivers in top teams underperform, they are not quickly replaced. When a top drive became available at Renault following Kubica's accident, it ultimately went to a returning WDC.

I don't know, but at the end of the day I think if any of them have a very bad first half of the season, then what happens on track will talk and one of them will head for the exit.

For me my enthusiasm is even bigger now.
I already got bored of Kovalainen, Kobayashi, Buemi and so on.
And as big GP2 fan, I like that many of the bunch step up, and I'm interested to see, how they will perform. Remember Kobayashi has been pretty mediocre in GP2 and everybody loved him in F1...so well who knows what happens.
And if they aren't good enough, they can be replaced by the likes of Calado next year...everything's fine for me

The sheer number of good midfeild drivers
(...)
Petrov
(...)
Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

Damn you, Petrov lost just 109 to Kubica

On a serious note, I regard Bottas and Gutierrez as very talented and will actually cheer for them.

I will only miss Kobayashi, who in my view, was doing no worse than Perez last season. Irony, one gets McLaren seat, second one gets none at all. Both scored some points thanks to starting on prime tyres, except for Suzuka where Koba started 3rd and maintained the position, which in my opinion was much bigger achievement than lucky podiums of Perez.

I think Grosjean deserves another year - he showed flashes of speed. Sutil was pretty good before he left, so he showed he deserves to be in F1. Kobayashi deserves another year - after all he matched Perez a fair bit.

Kob was pretty average to be fair. But he did few ballsy moves and is Japanese so people automatically like him.

Edited by chrisblades85, 02 February 2013 - 11:06.

I miss Jarno. And I feel sorry for Kamui.

Like most here, I am also most sorry about losing Kobayashi. Kovalainen never got a second shot at a point-scoring team, which is also too bad.

I generally agree with the OP, but Sutil doesn't belong on his turd list; he may not be top 4 or 5 but he's better than at least 1/3 of the the current grid.

I'm a bit disappointed Kobayashi isn't on the grid, but otherwise I don't really care. I've watched and enjoyed F1 when none of the current drivers were on the grid, and I'll probably enjoy it this year too. The fact that most drivers are around my age or younger plays a part in this as well. It makes it much harder to see these guys as the larger than life figures that Schumacher, Hill or Häkkinen were in the '90s.

Kobayashi leaving is horrible. He was awesome. Crazy overtakes, polite and a good guy who seemed very approachable. Non of that diva **** you see from drivers who really aren't all that hot.

Edited by MightyMoose, 03 February 2013 - 14:49.
Removed: But what kills my enthusiasm the most this year is the removal of the drivers threads in this forum. Boo.<-- Don't discuss moderation please.

I think it's a little bit ridicolous situation - the most experienced current GP drivers that DIDN'T win any GP yet drove in F1 only for TWO seasons (di Resta and Hulkenberg are tied at 39 GPs). This is one of the most inexperienced F1 fields to ever start a season I believe.

It doesn't bother me really, as far as enthusiasm is concerned. Though I'll miss them, each for a bit different reasons. Glock and Kovalainen were kinda lost when they've joined the backmarker teams. Shame, really. Also shame for Kobayashi. As for Petrov and Alg, I'll miss them a bit (specially Petrov) too.

Edited by DrProzac, 02 February 2013 - 11:21.

5/20 = 25% rookie drivers

12/20 = 60% have driven 2 seasons or less in F1.

You are right. This is a bit of an extreme situation right now.

Edited by Wander, 02 February 2013 - 11:31.

I think we need to be realistic about it. Backfield teams didn't use to have good drivers. So that Kovalainen/Glock/de la Rosa had rides was more the exception than the rule. Razia/Chilton or Pic/Van der Garde lineup are more normal.

On the other hand they're also better than the ride-buyers of ye olden time. However I am beginning to suspect that the quality of GP2 champs/race winners is declining.

or a return of the mediocre Sutil or Senna.

For me Sutil stands as a better driver than most (if not all) of drivers that you've mentioned here:

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari.

Nobody of those 5 was really stand out to me in recent years. I wouldn't have put any of those in my top10 F1 drivers ranking. Therefore my enthusiasm isn't affected at all. Sure, they've all proven to be F1 material and to be able to do a decent job in some circumstances, but as I stated earlier, none of them was really stand out to me.

And that said, I wouldn't write off Gutierrez and Bianchi, or even Van der Garde or Razia. None of them seems to have worse record in feeder series than Kobayashi for example. Why are you sure they are not going to do a proper job in F1 then? What was the merit of giving someone like Kobayashi a chance back in 2009? And do you think Petrov would've found his way to F1 if not sponsorship he had gathered for 2010? I don't think so.

This is how it looks today. You have to be a stand out driver if you want to be in F1 without large sponsorship backing. But even if you have backing, you also have to have a decent racing record to get any decent seat. Even if we assume nobody brings money with him to pay for an F1 seat, drivers like Gutierrez and Bianchi really should find themselves as being in contention for some F1 seats sooner or later. So I see no reeson to whing they are replacing drivers like Glock or Kovalainen just because those two can't find sponsorship backing.

I think it's a little bit ridicolous situation - the most experienced current GP drivers that DIDN'T win any GP yet drove in F1 only for TWO seasons (di Resta and Hulkenberg are tied at 39 GPs). This is one of the most inexperienced F1 fields to ever start a season I believe.

What does 'begin in' mean in that table? There are drivers who haven't done an F1 race yet (for example Bottas, but there are more), where it says 2012, Vergne appears as 2011...
Unless it means the first time ever they stepped into an F1 car to do a test... But then, for example, Räikkönen did his first test in 2000 and not 2001.

The sheer number of good midfeild drivers that have gone missing in 2013 has pretty much wiped out what enthusiasm I had for 2013.

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari. All seemingly out of the sport way before retirement age.

To be replaced with:

Razia, Chilton, Van Der Garde, Gutierrez, possibly Bianchi or a return of the mediocre Sutil or Senna. Who are most of these people?

Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

I'm all for rookies getting a chance after a testing role, like Bottas is, but this seems like a return to the nouveau pay-drivers, where guys don't get a career but only a few seasons written out by cheque.

Di Resta wasn't "destroyed" by his teammate, they both had 4th place finishes at their best, he finished only two places off hulk in the championship, and the two people in between had better cars than Di Resta (Kobi and Schumi). There are a lot more teammates on the grid who've kept their seats and been more comprehensively beaten by teammates - namely Webber and Massa.

Edited by mattferg, 02 February 2013 - 11:48.

What does 'begin in' mean in that table? There are drivers who haven't done an F1 race yet (for example Bottas, but there are more), where it says 2012, Vergne appears as 2011...
Unless it means the first time ever they stepped into an F1 car to do a test... But then, for example, Räikkönen did his first test in 2000 and not 2001.

It's the year they first took part in F1 weekend - some of the drivers did FPs before they started to drive regularly in F1.

It's the year they first took part in F1 weekend - some of the drivers did FPs before they started to drive regularly in F1.

Ah, okay!
Weird way to classify, though. It's not that there's much of a difference between stepping into an F1 car, for the first time, in a free practice or a test.

The sheer number of good midfeild drivers that have gone missing in 2013 has pretty much wiped out what enthusiasm I had for 2013.

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari. All seemingly out of the sport way before retirement age.

To be replaced with:

Razia, Chilton, Van Der Garde, Gutierrez, possibly Bianchi or a return of the mediocre Sutil or Senna. Who are most of these people?

Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

I'm all for rookies getting a chance after a testing role, like Bottas is, but this seems like a return to the nouveau pay-drivers, where guys don't get a career but only a few seasons written out by cheque.

Grosjean was only "demolished" by Kimi if you don't look behind the stats. It was obvious he lacks patience, not pace. Wanting him replaced with one of those fairly mediocre drivers you mention up there seems a bit strange to me.

Ah, okay!
Weird way to classify, though. It's not that there's much of a difference between stepping into an F1 car, for the first time, in a free practice or a test.

I think it's because the Friday drivers are officially part of the entry list for the Grand Prix.

I think it's because the Friday drivers are officially part of the entry list for the Grand Prix.

Makes sense

I don't understand the whole Kobayashi obsession around these forums. Even in his third full year of F1, he showed nothing to suggest that Sauber should do everything in his power to keep him. He is, all too often, both inconsistent and slow, unfortunately.

You are Saubers CEO, what do you do:

1- Sign both Nico Hulkenberg and Kamui Kobayashi. Nec, Telmex, Interproteccion, Claro and Cuervo all are gone since there's no Mexican in the team. Good luck funding your team

2- Sign Esteban and Hulkenberg

3- Sign Esteban and Kamui



Why are people hating on Sauber? They did what needed to be done

Kobayashi, Glock, Kovalinen, Petrov and, earlier, Alguersuari. All seemingly out of the sport way before retirement age.

None of those guys have done anything significant to suggest that they are worth keeping.

Razia, Chilton, Van Der Garde, Gutierrez, possibly Bianchi or a return of the mediocre Sutil or Senna. Who are most of these people?

Give rookies a chance before you judge them. Likewise, Sutil is better than most of the guys you listed previously. I agree about Senna though.

Yet two drivers who were demolished by their teammates in 2012 get to stay on. Grosjean and di Resta. Has anyone ever stayed on before after losing by 111 points to their teammate and scoring less than 50% of their points?

Yes, Massa, for three consecutive seasons.

Ignorance is a bliss. Grosjean lacked patience, not pace.

Regarding Di Resta, he scored 80% of Hulkenberg's points. How the hell was he demolished?

Edited by Kingshark, 03 February 2013 - 05:40.

Hulk could have stayed out at FI and let Koba stay put also, not walk into the team Koba built and reap benefits, but thts from a fans point of view i know hulk only did it for the benefit of his career and i totally respect that, will it work out? who knows.