Any masters of going faster want to help ?

I use the completely opposite approach - got used to not only having sector times all the time but also a delta display constantly on all the time. At the beginning it distracted me and made me overdrive, but after a while I stopped feeling the pressure to perform and started using it intelligently to immediately recognise when I'm losing time and when I don't.

 

It's got to a point I'm a bit overly dependent on the delta timing now! Wouldn't know how to pick up the pace without it!

As I see it is if you start staring at your deltas before you have reached consistency, you'll risk ending up with good deltas at the wrong places. Deltas are good for finding that last tenth's, but if you are 4 seconds off the pace  your deltas will be all over the place and rarely at the same place twice. If we take Monza for instance: You get a great, green, Lesmo 1 but you miss lesmo 2. Then for the next hour your Lesmo 1 is red all the time and you are struggling to improve it and Lesmo 2 will suffer. When lesmo 2 suffers, your lap will suffer.

That's why I always use "optimal sectors" delta instead of "best laptime" delta.   iRacing has a few different types of deltas. Obviously at the very beginning I'll be improving them all the time and they won't be super relevant.

It's mostly because sometimes I'll luck into a better sector than usual because by chance I did something different in a corner, this way I get an immediate visual clue that what I just did there could be pursued. Often happens when I start taking it easy on purpose but improve laptime simply because I was overdriving it before! Also if I see a suddenly very green delta when entering a corner it's usually a sign I've missed my braking point and need to urgently save the car. In corners where there's no brake markers the delta is often my brake marker. 

The main dangers is the psychological urge to chase laptime midway through a race (I always seem to develop a Raikkonen-esque need to get that fastest lap when there's nothing at stake); and also getting too excited by the delta time gained into a corner might prevent me from attempting a later apex, which shows a bad delta early on but the gains on exit might offset it.

Completely agree it's almost pointless looking at lap times and delta times until you are lapping at a regular pace. Hitting the same braking and turn in points and taking the same lines lap after lap. It's only once you are doing this comfortably that you'll get into a position to really start to understand how to improve.

When chasing lap time I find checking sector times during the lap can be distracting or even staring at a delta constantly. Knowing you've done a big PB in S1 is often a guarantee you'll mess up one of the corners before the end of the lap under the pressure of trying to hold on to what you've gained. Instead, focusing on each corner as it comes, input by input and put all your focus into perfecting each and every one until the end of lap is the only way to guarantee maxing out a lap time. You have to stay calm as well as focused, don't over think or let other thoughts or doubts about what your going to do next creep in, keep the chimp in the cage so to speak.

Yes, and the typical reaction of "Oh ****, I am +0.23, must make up that in the last 3 corners to get the PB"

Instant gratification. We want that PB so hard that we give up consistency and spend most races in the gravel trap.

MoTeC has a nice sector times report which splits the lap up into corners and straights. You can also customise the location of the sectors ( it does a good job by default though )
It has a feature called an 'eclectic' which shows what your lap time might be if your best times in each sector over a number of laps were combined.

This is viewable only off track in the MoTeC analysis software which suits me just fine, I've got enough problems keeping the car between the kerbs without looking at live data

 

Siddley, how do you get Mo Tec to work on rFactor? I never got the damn thing working, pardon my French, despite all the install guides that are available...

This should get you going - it's what I use and really well documented :- http://isiforums.net...or-Motec-Plugin

I have managed to get the default rFactor telemetry output working in the past, but it was like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling. Plus MoTeC changed the format of their logfiles and if you couldn't find an old version of the program then it wouldn't read them anyway.

I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this topic. I entered another event tonight and was the slowest in my class, but only by two or three seconds compared to the majority of the pack.

I'm getting better due to your advice, and somehow it's made it easier\quicker for me to learn new tracks.

Ironically, thanks to a case of " to finish first, first you must finish " I placed 5th out of 9 in my class    

 

PM-ing someone I don't know for free advice seems a bit cheeky. Although that's probably me being weird

 

Here is the lap ( I don't know how to embed the video ) http://youtu.be/LsQfFDMJ7g8

I've managed to knock another second off the time, but I can't see where I can lose any more.

One thing to note about that lap in particular, other than your lines are nice and smooth and you don't visibly seem to be pushing too hard (staying within your comfort zone is fine at first, no point chucking it at the barriers as that doesn't give you any laptime), is that in the first Lesmo you don't seem to notice the understeer building until quite late on. You've taken quite a shallow entry to the corner and carried a lot of speed which is fine if then you feel where you need to roll off the throttle a bit and keep your apex, but what then happens is the car starts to wash outwards as you've continued to hold your speed too long into the corner, then meaning you're having to keep the steering lock on and hold off getting on the throttle much later into the corner exit than was necessarily needed judging by your corner entry. The same thing happens in the Parabolica, which is more understandable as it's a very difficult corner to pick a line for and any understeer in that corner feels terrible.

The 2nd Lesmo as a comparison you drive perfectly, pitching the car forward enough on the brakes to get the front bite and onto the apex kerbs. It's a shorter corner so not directly comparable with the understeer you seem to get in the other two examples, but it shows to me the importance of thinking about what attitude the car should be in when it's at the apex of the corner. A short corner like that needs pure turn-in grip as you're not in the corner long enough to lose any real speed before hitting the loud pedal again, but at Lesmo 1 you need to be more gradual in your deceleration in order to have the car more evenly balanced on it's outside corners.

I'm nowhere near as good as some of the talent who have posted on here, mainly because I don't have a decent PC to drive the pukka sims on, so I'm a Gran Turismo PS3 guy, but one who was in the top 2500 in GT Academy last year. Not amazing but pretty good considering the amount of players in that competition last year. So my top advice would be not to fundamentally change your driving style because it looks nice and smooth and your lines are fundamentally sound, it's just in some areas a case of not balancing the car for the job in hand. That can be achieved with setup but it's more about how you approach each corner and what you want the result to be on exit. Do you need traction? Do you need to carry momentum? Are you fully lifting off the throttle or just reducing it?

Continue driving naturally but then use the tools available to you to see what you are doing in each corner.

That's really helpful, thanks. I'll definitely try to think about the cars attitude more, it's not something I pay enough attention to.

Currently I've been trying to lower my laptimes at Istanbul Park, which is where my last online race was. I'm gaining 10ths and that's all. But when I look at the MoTeC 'eclectic' I can see that if I drove each sector to the best of my ability I would be almost 2 seconds quicker. Which is where I want to be really.
My laptimes are pretty consistent but my sector times aren't, if that makes sense. The differences are quite small but over the course of a whole lap they are adding up to those two seconds which separate me from the the top third ( excluding the aliens, who I sometimes wish would go and race in their own galaxy and leave us humans in peace    )

I'm wondering about visual and audio cues that might help me now, my FFB is set up pretty well, I'm happy with that. I have lowered the engine volume by two thirds and increased the tyre scrub and sliding sounds for starters. I'm not sure what I can do ( if anything ) to help me place the car more accurately on the track though.
Does anyone have any ideas that might help me ?

I'm going to concentrate on the Enduracers mod now, specifically P2 and LMPC - I like endurance cars of any era and there are a lot of events to take part in.
I'd like to race the HistorX cars online, but I'm not prepared to use a H-shifter and heel and toe against what seems like the majority of people who install the sequential box upgrade. I don't mind them using it, I'm just glad people are interested in and enjoy classic racing, but it's not a level playing field.

One thing that makes a huge difference is the turn in. Driving smoothly might easily be understood as "moving the steering wheel slowly". That is not the case. When you turn in, there is not really a "starting to turn int" phase, it is simply THE turn in. A distinct action that shifts the weight and give the outer tires some extra grip that throws the car into the new direction. Turning the wheel to slowly will not produce this effect. There is of course a drawback - if you do it to abruptly, if the speed is too high, the rears loose too much grip and you have a fight on your hands. It takes confidence to drive like that, confidence of your turn in points, confidence in your setup. If you are not used to driving like this, it will take quite a number of laps until you dare to do it in the race since you will be presented with  new variations of losing control  which will force you to learn new ways of regaining control. Try for fun and just overdo the steering input, be violent, and notice the the effect is has on your front ends ability to grip

Brilliant, I'm glad you brought that up. The Oreca LMPC has one handling characteristic which catches me out a lot. If I turn in to a low speed corner - second gear usually - too sharply or while carrying too much speed then the back end of the car comes around and I spin on the exit.
The loss of control is gentle and isn't preceded by any warning sign I can feel through the steering or any tyre noise, so it's impossible to catch. I'm usually barely on the power when it happens.

I think it's the weight transfer you mention, but I'm reluctant to alter the suspension setup because I don't really know what I'm doing and will probably make things worse.

It's probably my technique anyway.

 

Brilliant, I'm glad you brought that up. The Oreca LMPC has one handling characteristic which catches me out a lot. If I turn in to a low speed corner - second gear usually - too sharply or while carrying too much speed then the back end of the car comes around and I spin on the exit.
The loss of control is gentle and isn't preceded by any warning sign I can feel through the steering or any tyre noise, so it's impossible to catch. I'm usually barely on the power when it happens.

I think it's the weight transfer you mention, but I'm reluctant to alter the suspension setup because I don't really know what I'm doing and will probably make things worse.

It's probably my technique anyway.

 

I would say: entry understeer, which means that you have too much steering lock at the moment of applying throttle. Try to find a way to use more lock on the entry and less on the exit, or take a wider line.

By the way: I have three racing sims on my pc: Gp3, Gp4 and rFactor. I have to say that the GP titels setting up the car is so rewarding... while in rFactor, geezzz...

One thing that makes a huge difference is the turn in. Driving smoothly might easily be understood as "moving the steering wheel slowly". That is not the case. When you turn in, there is not really a "starting to turn int" phase, it is simply THE turn in. A distinct action that shifts the weight and give the outer tires some extra grip that throws the car into the new direction. Turning the wheel to slowly will not produce this effect. There is of course a drawback - if you do it to abruptly, if the speed is too high, the rears loose too much grip and you have a fight on your hands. It takes confidence to drive like that, confidence of your turn in points, confidence in your setup. If you are not used to driving like this, it will take quite a number of laps until you dare to do it in the race since you will be presented with  new variations of losing control  which will force you to learn new ways of regaining control. Try for fun and just overdo the steering input, be violent, and notice the the effect is has on your front ends ability to grip

Completely agree on 'smooth driving'... smooth drivers are drivers who get their turn-in so perfect that they don't have to do any extra work during the corner. It might not always be the fastest way through the corner, but it's always the best balance of speed and ease of repetition. It's all well and good being super aggressive on a hot lap and putting that extra work on balancing the car through each corner, but I'd rather be 'lazy' and get the car doing the major work for me.

True, combined sector times are more realistic but the exit of each corner has an effect on the straight speed of the split. Some corners you'll be faster in the first half than the second half, some corners you'll have a slower apex speed and a higher exit speed thus higher straight speed, they all affect each other so combining lots of tiny sectors just isn't realistic.

Completely agree on 'smooth driving'... smooth drivers are drivers who get their turn-in so perfect that they don't have to do any extra work during the corner. It might not always be the fastest way through the corner, but it's always the best balance of speed and ease of repetition. It's all well and good being super aggressive on a hot lap and putting that extra work on balancing the car through each corner, but I'd rather be 'lazy' and get the car doing the major work for me.

It depends so much on the car too. The higher the grip to mass ratio (an F1 car having a high G/M ratio) the quicker the transition of the inputs from the steering wheel through the chassis and tyres to the road surface. This means that if you want to be as fast as possible through a corner (ie be on the limit of adhesion of the tyres at all times at the optimum slip angle thus generating the most grip) you have to turn in quickly and accurately to be quick. If you are too smooth you'll be spending time in the corner not at the optimum grip effectively making the apex of the corner tighter and lowering your apex/exit speed. Conversely in a heavier car with less grip (A NASCAR for e.g) the transition phase will take longer therefore, in time at least, a smoother input is required as quick inputs will just put the tyre beyond it's optimum grip until the chassis and tyres have had time to react. You still have to be accurate with your inputs to be quick though whatever the car, that's the common factor rather than the smooth or aggressive approach.

The best drivers can keep any car on this knife edge constantly, from turn in to apex to exit, corner after corner, lap after lap. Sometimes a setup might be purposely designed to induce instabilities that allow this knife edge to be reached as quickly as possible that then gives themselves more work to do balancing the knife edge through the corner as it dances either side of the optimum (as per Huttu GPL setups) rather than never really reaching it. Again, this is what sorts the best from the good; to know how to get the car setup to walk the tightrope with enough repeatability. Then mix in the compromises needed to make sure a lap is fastest, knowing instinctively which corners to prioritize the setup around to reduce the overall lap time as much as possible. Creating a setup that is difficult to drive for 75% of the lap as a sacrifice to get the laptime is often what is needed (low DF at Monza being a prime example). This ability is arguably more important than being the very fastest driver. Witness all the drivers down the years that have been able to win events on their day and look like the best and compare them to those who don't have off days or at worst have off days like the others have 'on' days. It's the ones who know how to maximize their driving skill with setup changes that rise to the top. Especially in sim racing where practice is unlimited for those that have the spare time.

It's for this reason I think many top sim racers, mainly due to the huge advantage of unlimited driving, are potentially reaching a much higher level in terms of perfection than many real world racers, even those in F1. Obviously driving a sim is physically easier and there are less variables to deal with but these factors probably help make it the truth. I don't think many top real racers would wipe the floor with top sim racers without the same amount of practice, no more or less than top sim racers would struggle to adapt to top real world racing (as most have been sat on there arse for years!). 

I would say: entry understeer, which means that you have too much steering lock at the moment of applying throttle. Try to find a way to use more lock on the entry and less on the exit, or take a wider line.

 

By the way: I have three racing sims on my pc: Gp3, Gp4 and rFactor. I have to say that the GP titels setting up the car is so rewarding... while in rFactor, geezzz...

It's not that, the spin starts before I apply the throttle or just as I'm getting on it.

rFactor setups mystify me. I'm an engineer ( of sorts ) but I don't think my brain extends to suspension and stuff like that.

The only cars in rFactor I could reasonably set-up were the cars of the historic F1 1979 mods. With the mod, there was a good manual how you should setup ground-effect cars, and although I was far from the worlds best at least I could hang with the AI on 95 percent. It was mostly guessing if you needed stiff springs or softer springs (between 1400-1000 and 1200-800), setting the ride-height so that in the fastest corner the difference between front and rear was about 22 mm, increase front-roll bar when the car was sluggish, decrease when it wanted to run away in long corners, some fiddling with the brake-bias... and there I would go.

With rFactor, when I DID get any telemetry working, the weirdest things popped up in telemetry. Not only did the car react the opposite to set-up changes (how can the car still understeer when you have set, as an experiment, all the front bumps to zero), but I would look at the rear-ride-height and it would be lower than the front - while braking!

If you want to read a good set-up guide, read this article here. I've used it for about a decade, and it works excellent for me in gp3 and gp4. It does not do a thing for me in rFactor, but perhaps you will like it anyways.

Alison Hine, interesting character, I read a lot of her stuff when I was into GPL
Thanks for that

Alison Hine, interesting character, I read a lot of her stuff when I was into GPL
Thanks for that

Oh Siddley, a word of encouragement of someone in the same 'take-the-top-and-add-seven-seconds'-class:

yesterday I took out the F1 2012 game out of the cupboard an popped it in my Xbox. I had not played it for a year, and found myself in careermode halfway a qualifying session. And lo-and-behold: in the meantime, without actually playing THIS game, I had gotten faster! I found out also some tricks to transfer my knowledge from other racing games to the setup in the game, but most of that I could do because somehow, somewhere I had learned some stuff about the behaviour of the car and my response to it.

So: hope springs eternal!

Good for you !

I should really try another sim but my computer is pretty low spec by todays standards and won't run much except rFactor or GTR2 - and I don't really like the FFB in GTR2, I'm not saying it's bad, I just don't get along with it.

 

Many years ago I wanted to become a good driver/racer.  I had the will but I knew that the technical side of racing was beyond me in terms of understanding realistic car behavior etc.

GTR by Simbin was released.. and I never raced anyone, at first I just used it as a tool to improve my skills.  Both as a driver and as my own race engineer (because the two are linked).

I drove.. it must have been 1000 laps over the course of a month or so.  Changing car setups, learning about what each part of the setup did.. and learning the difference in how it felt.. and that's the big thing.. it's not about numbers on a page but knowing how it feels.  Drivers always talk about "the feeling".  Roll bars, wing levels, tyre pressures, ride heights, gear ratios.. everything.  It was very hard at first, but I always loved the Spa track and over time it became easier.

Even in my first online races, I was quick but still rusty in terms of consistency or racecraft.  I had a hard enough time in clear air, let alone with racecraft.  All the aids were off obviously.  Cockpit view.  Over the months my racing improved, in a similar way to how I improved when driving solo and "testing".  There became a point at a later time, where I was racing at Laguna Seca in the practice session.. and someone shared their Saleen setup with me and I immediately went 3-4 seconds quicker without changing it.  They couldn't believe it.. "you did that with my setup.. WTF???"

After a year or two I was way beyond the level I was in that first month, struggling to learn the basics at Spa, spinning the wheels up so much on exit of corners.. or not pushing hard enough on entry into corners for fear of running wide.  And my calfs would cramp up a lot too.  It took at least 6 months or a year to get proper control of my pedals in terms of being sensitive with them.. and doing that creates a lot of fatigue in the muscles.  Over time, like with any exercise.. they adjust to it.. and a muscle memory becomes a part of your body.

Since then I've raced iRacing briefly, lots of F1 stuff in rFactor.. and some other stuff.. but it's always seemed easier by comparison.  Like I can jump into anything and within a week or two it all comes back.  I haven't raced in a long time, but it never takes long to get "back into form".

I play guitar and it's very similar in a lot of ways.  There is a technical side to it, a physical side to it, a muscle memory side and a steep learning curve.  The setup of the guitar/amp etc is very important.. and it's very similar to driving in that you have to learn and know what feels right to you.  Without that it'll always be hard to be quick in cars, because it's rare that car setups are locked.. and the more ability you have to customize.. the more ability you have to find your sweet spot and be "in the zone" and to enjoy the "feeling".  The more that it's tailored to what you like.. the more comfortable you will be.. and the more you will be able to relax and maximize it.  Instead of having to fight it and be frustrated.  All of this is the kind of thing, that for me has been a fun adventure and even if you go years without doing it.. you have built a core understanding and experience within yourself.. so you can always return to it and get it back quickly.  Sort of like doing weights in the gym.

There is no right way to do these things, everyone has their own way.  The right way to hold a guitar pick, the right amp, the right balance for a car.. the right type of car.  It's just a matter of exploring and learning what feels right to you.  And getting the best out of yourself.  You only have to learn these things once.. and then it stays with you for life.  Where there is a will there is a way.

Just my experiences.. but maybe it can help you.  It's a great feeling to have a developed a skill for something and improve it over time.. and it's something that money can't buy.  I'd worry less about the driving guides or what other people do.. and just developing that 'feeling' inside of yourself.  You can label what you do like early turn in or late braking.. but it's really not important if you are aware of what you are doing.. only that you've tested the limits and backed off of them a bit (to be more consistant).. and over time you just want to be increasing those limits as you fine tune everything and become more precise and disciplined.  It takes years..

In terms of setup, the easiest way for anything is to test something in both extremes.. like wing level or roll bars.. test it at one level.. and then at the opposite extreme for the other.. and see how each feels.  Both will probably feel bad, but they will feel different.  And then find the one in the middle that feels best.  And then do that for every parameter.  It's not about right or wrong or what anyone else does, because you could find a way that works with your style that looks wrong on paper and is different from anyone else but it just works.

It's a lot of messing about but builds up an understanding and over time you can predict how it feel will without having to actually test it.  And then for example.. if you've lowered the ride height to it's sweet spot, suddenly the wing level will be wrong because they all affect each other.  So then adjusting the wing, lowering it a bit because you can now get away with a bit more.  Then adjusting the springs/suspension because it will probably be different.  Now the balance might have changed, so adjusting the front or rear roll bars to compensate.  Or the differential.  Or the tyre pressures.  It's very complicated how they all interact with each other, but learning that.. and being able to predict that becomes easier over time.  And then being able to drive accordingly with an understanding of why you have set your car up in this way.  Becoming fussier in how you like it and more sure of yourself in terms of knowing what you want.

Once you've done this with one sim, it's just a matter of learning how the new one is different.. in terms of how it's calibrated.  And the steering wheel settings are very very important too, in terms of steering lock and deadzone and all of those things.. they are just as important as the car setup itself and again, it's just a matter of learning/knowing/exploring what it is that you like.. and then being able to reach that "feeling" regardless of whatever sim it is.  To have a sharp response to the inputs, the way your like to do them.  All of these factors are complicated in terms of how they interact with each other.. but over time it becomes easier and simpler.  And you can predict them in advance.. without having to test them.  But in the beginning, it helps to learn and explore them more.  To build that core understanding.. and as that develops, so does your ability to drive with your preferred way.  The best thing about doing this in sims, is that you can explore the limits rather quickly and if you run wide or don't like the feeling, can hit escape and return to the pits.  Where as in real life, it's a lot more time consuming and much harder to explore the limits.  It's easy to find the limits in computerized stuff and it doesn't hurt so much.

Wow, I really appreciate you writing all that, it's very interesting to read about your experiences as well as the advice

What you mention about the pedals and muscle cramping has kind of a bearing on my situation. I have problems with my right leg and hip due to a really bad bike crash I had years ago.
Since I have stiffened up my pedals and been practicing again using heel and toe an hour or two each day some of those problems have gotten better - I am now actually walking easier.

I do have to get a cockpit built though, sitting on a sun lounger with the pedals mounted on ammo boxes crammed under a desk isn't nearly as bad as it sounds, but it still isn't good...plus I'm in the main living area of the house right now and laptimes tend to suffer when a huge Rhodesian Ridgeback hound sneaks up and puts his head in your lap, or a cat jumps on your shoulder

I was babysitting a cat when first trying Codemasters first F1 title and I didn't last long because it kept crawling underneath my legs and feet.   Not what you want, when driving around the streets of Singapore.

For racing or any other skill, a lot of it is.. that you get back what you put into it.  The more hours spent or time practicing, the better you become etc.  As long as the passion is there and you enjoy it.. that's the main thing.  I find that win or lose, to be driving around corner to corner is a lot of fun, separate to a lot of other real life activities.  The steady improvement just comes from doing that over time and trying to become fussier or pickier about how you do things.  The experimenting with setup stuff can be a pain in the short term but can payoff in the long term.  The physical side to it is one of the things I love about racing, it's surprisingly physical, even in a sim environment, especially if you do it for hours at a time.  Great to hear that it could have some payoff or benefits in other ways of life like making it easier to walk.  Racing is great.

Edited by HoldenRT, 10 May 2014 - 13:46.

Sid, have you solved that sudden oversteer problem in slow corners you had? I am driving the 1978 mod in rFactor now, And apart from the fact that the car absolutely will not tolerate any braking and steering at the same time (ghhghegheihg spin!), the car, after the corner, when the nose points already in the right direction, it suddenly 'hops' and snaps around. 

I haven't. I have just been driving around it, although the '65 cars that are my main interest don't do it much.

I think the best way to deal with it would be to have a motion rig, so you get a little warning... maybe one day

Well, sometimes I think that certain physical reactions of the cars are programmed into the car. For example the historical F1 1991 mod is fine, but has the irritating habit of 'freezing' the engine untill you push the throttle again. So you have brake, gear down, push the throttle.... It spoils the fun, to be quite honest.

Well perhaps I should just stick to the F1 65 mod...