Simracing and its importance for real life racing

Not only did Max rely on the sim-to-reality conversion to pull off that unnecceary move on Nasr who was needlessly holding Max and himself up out of sync on an in-lap, but on the first lap he'd employed ex-WDC Alonso to sweep the outside entry line for him. Few drivers would have been aware that the outside had been swept at all, let alone so competently :-)

That is meant to be funny I hope ;).

Which other F1 drivers are famous for their simracing adventures? Do we have more stories to share and tell? 

I did remember racing against Shane Van Ginsbergen once in iRacing. Needless to say he whopped my ass in the V8... 

Do you think drivers are stupid? they know there is a difference, but sim racing undoubtedly plays a significant role in developing drivers, especially ones who use it correct like max. Actually the like for like overtake he did is almost the least significant benefit you get.

 

And sim racing without a doubt can help develop skills in close racing environments. I've seen the evidence myself..

Again my opening line "No doubt sims have their part to play, down to the individual I guess and if Max finds value in it who am I to argue with him. I guess he has the very best of both worlds.."

Max gets to play with both real life and sims, I wonder how many sim racers here currently race or have raced in the real world? And I mean a proper sanctioned governing body of motor sport recognised by the FIA.

In line with the move toward cost reduction, it seems to me that sim racing for drivers is much like CFD for engineers.  If real-world tests are too difficult and/or expensive and/or regulated out of existence, where else can you turn to keep learning?  

I think as time goes on, the really interesting question will be whether it is more beneficial for an aspiring driver to spend time doing 'real' racing in any category they can find, or to spend time in a simulation that is specifically targeted at the cars and tracks (i.e. F1) they intend to race on.

In line with the move toward cost reduction, it seems to me that sim racing for drivers is much like CFD for engineers.  If real-world tests are too difficult and/or expensive and/or regulated out of existence, where else can you turn to keep learning?  

 

I think as time goes on, the really interesting question will be whether it is more beneficial for an aspiring driver to spend time doing 'real' racing in any category they can find, or to spend time in a simulation that is specifically targeted at the cars and tracks (i.e. F1) they intend to race on.

This, exactly this . 

 

 

An instrument to aid knowledge and understanding that is true..

 

However I can't see how a "virtual" simulated environment can sharpen "real life" skills though, the two don't go together.

 

That's like saying that F1 drivers have no need for any training outside the car when they all spend a lot of time at physical and mental training

 

 

 

 

Unless you are Kimi Räikkönen (this will in fact troubble some other drivers as well) and get sick ;)

 

*waits for the clip showing that sim racers get sick in a real car*

That is meant to be funny I hope ;).

 

Which other F1 drivers are famous for their simracing adventures? Do we have more stories to share and tell? 

I did remember racing against Shane Van Ginsbergen once in iRacing. Needless to say he whopped my ass in the V8... 

Rubens Barrichello used iRacing I think to prepare for his Indycar races.

On the subject of sim racers being good real racers, and real racers being good sim racers - often it is true, but it doesn't always correlate. There's good real racers that aren't so good in sim - no doubt because for all the similarities there are great differences.

Edited by Mark8539, 09 September 2015 - 14:44.

*waits for the clip showing that sim racers get sick in a real car*

Here you go: 14:49

Sim racing is not real racing. But in some areas it is very useful. Besides the obvious reason of being a very cheap way of practicing driving whenever you cannot be on a real track, there is another side to it and that is multiplayer. Multi player means that yes, it's a virtual track and car, but you are racing against real people. Some of these people are really fast, consistent, skilled at car setup. And these real people aren't kids, they're really serious about it.

Racing against real opponents means that there is a lot of real stuff you can learn: from race strategy, to approaching close racing, tire and fuel management etc. This is an area where sim-racing done at a decent level can really help. There are ways to make sure you race against good opponents: safety and performance rankings. iRacing has them, Assetto Corsa is starting to have them, too. Another way is joining a good league, where you have a race director and strict rules that make everyone behave.

Of course, if the track is laser-scanned and the car physics are spot-on, bingo. You can both learn the track and the car, and at the same time hone your racing skills.

At the moment I would say it's a golden age for racing sims: rFactor 2, Assetto Corsa, Game Stock Car, of course iRacing, RaceRoom Experience and to some extent Project Cars all offer a lot if you have a steering wheel. And steering wheels are not expensive nowadays. iRacing probably is the sim that requires the higher monetary investment, but of course you get a more "professional" multiplayer platform in exchange. I play Assetto Corsa which stands a bit in between hardcore sims and simracing games, in that it's easy to pick up but hard to master.

Edited by gilez, 09 September 2015 - 15:38.

The more you "race" the more experienced you become. The two environments could not be further apart though, sitting on a rainy grid, looking through a visor, roll cage restricting your peripheral vision, sitting low in a car, windscreen screen misting up and trying to second guess where your competitors are going to be (by using your ears to gauge how close a car is to your side) are all things a sim cannot recreate and that's before the lights have even gone out..

Okay for the mist and heavy wet clothes, cold feet and neck-breaking G-pull in the corners. But how do you figure one would gauge how close (or whether there even is) a car is on the side? How much less of the road ahead shall one sees? If my computer screen edges "block" off more of the scenery than any roll-cage ever will, is that an advantage that makes it easier for the sim racer?

If you're thinking Mario-Kart (Gran Turismo, Forza, ...) -like view from 20 feet behind the car, that's not what people talking about sim above have in mind.

Edited by Seanspeed, 09 September 2015 - 15:31.

It really helps I think, for sure for Max, and I cannot believe it only works on 17 year old brains.

The others simply have a different approach.

I already see Villeneuve training Formula E tracks on his Playstation 2. Hahahaha

Its funny; Brundle said in the commentary over the Italian GP weekend that Verstappen drives like he's in a computer game. Now we know why!

Was that meant as a good thing?

I don't think that the lack of rain, sweat, visor or whatever is the problem with simracing. Good drivers are good drivers because they know how to make abstraction of those things and focus on driving. Driving a car for the very first time is different from driving a car after having your driver's license for 10 years because you learn to focus on the things that matter and let the subconscious handle the rest.

But of course crashing in real life is different from crashing in a video game.

Also, I would guess that the top Gran Turismo driver's are better than the best iRacing drivers. It's statistically more likely to find "natural talents" in a pool of a few million players than in a group of a few thousand people. It's not like everyone can afford a 2000€ PC, a 1000€ monitor and a yearly subscription to iRacing.

Motorsports is too expensive. It is what it is. But I have a very hard believing that there aren't more talented drivers out there. I don't think it's normal to have that many sons of former (professional or amateur) racing drivers on the F1 grid and it is the same in other series too. You don't see that in football because most people have the opportunity to play football at a young age and move up the ranks quickly if there is real talent.

If there is a 18 year old kid scoring 50 goals per season in Indonesia, big European clubs will be all over him. That wouldn't happen in motorsport because to prove you're any good, you need to have rich parents. I think it's a shame and I hope that simracing will make motorsports more accessible to everyone.

I made a reasonably indepth post on the cost of this in another topic about a week ago.
 
Then I was at Monza and watched Mardenborough come last in both GP2 races   but that's unfair, it was his first weekend in the car and he wasn't too far off the pace on Sunday.

I think the road to Formula 1 is going to change vastly over the next 10 years with the development of home simulators. Families won't need millions in the bank to allow their children to pursue a racing career.
 
As far as I am aware Jann Mardenborough the Playstation GT Academy winner didn't spend any money on lower formula or karting. (He has raced in other series, but nothing prior to his GT Academy win in 2011) He lines up on the GP2 grid this weekend aged 23.
 
I think computer games will be part of the road to Formula 1 or any other top level motorsport in the coming years. Home consoles and racing sim set-ups have become far more advanced and are widely available at low prices (very low compared to funding a real life karting/lower formula career around the UK or Europe)
 
A full blown sim setup would cost you around £33k and require a fair bit of space, but that's soon to be history. With the launch of Oculus Rift next year kids won't need a huge X thousand pounds TV set up (or a TV at all) in order to get a seamless 360 degree immersed racing experience. A single seater racing cockpit including pedals/wheel is under £1k. True simulator games like iRacing and rFactor (and probably others) cost very little.
 
Of course I'm not suggesting everyone with a home simulator would be good enough or real life karting experience will be nullified but with competitions such as the GT Academy whittling down the best of the best online racers, surely a handful would emerge who could translate that talent to real life.

 

Edited by RedBaron, 09 September 2015 - 16:24.

I could also see it being a very powerful scouting tool for children. Dunno what happened with the GT Academy winners other than Mardenborough (who is a perfect example of this) but at 18+ I think it's safe to say that while you could forge a respectable racing career, really you've missed the boat in regards to becoming the best of the best in real-life racing. Online age verification is still a problem though.

Edited by JAW97, 09 September 2015 - 17:34.

Rubens Barrichello used iRacing I think to prepare for his Indycar races.

 

On the subject of sim racers being good real racers, and real racers being good sim racers - often it is true, but it doesn't always correlate. There's good real racers that aren't so good in sim - no doubt because for all the similarities there are great differences.

Barrichello and Massa raced in some Brazilian sim racing leagues, around 2011 I remember seeing Massa racing in Race 07, I think Barrichello still does some sim racing, not sure about Massa

I could also see it being a very powerful scouting tool for children. Dunno what happened with the GT Academy winners other than Mardenborough (who is a perfect example of this) but at 18+ I think it's safe to say that while you could forge a respectable racing career, really you've missed the boat in regards to becoming the best of the best in real-life racing. Online age verification is still a problem though.

Most of the ones still under contract with Nissan are in various GT3-based championships around the world, Lucas Ordonez (the first winner in 2009) is doing Japanese F3 and a part-season of Super GT in GT500 this year.

EDIT: Also a few of them have had outings at various points during the season in LMP2 in the ELMS and at Le Mans.

Rubens Barrichello used iRacing I think to prepare for his Indycar races

Rubens is also a fan of the awfully named, but highly enjoyable, Stock Car Extreme game.

He talks about using it as preparation, and the competition element of simracing, as well as his son using it to experiment, in this video:

Edited by Nonesuch, 09 September 2015 - 17:50.

The thing is, a lot of these type of talent find things have been done before.

The Ford find a driver rally scheme unearthed George Donaldson who went on to win GpN on rallies even win a series and then onto becoming a top engineer, but he already had experience. Simlarly didn't Calum Lockie and Tim Lee Davey win talent comps too?

The Nissan thing is different in that it takes car driving novices, that is their selling point.  But GT6 is a woeful simulator, all these kids are doing is repeating a lap of whatever track tens of thousands of times to find short cuts, areas you can cut, little tweaks that you would never on earth be able to do in a real car as you would be at a track for months on end.

Huttu is by far the best example of a sim gamer I have seen, I have got close to some of his times in Iracing on some tracks, but it is his ice cool brain that stands out, he can sit on lap records all day and not make many mistakes, for the rest of us they are one offs. it's the same in most sims, there is always a few guys doing ridiculous things in the same car as you.  A lot of time it is setup, and their setup preferences might work better with the car/track physics than yours or mine, hence on some games you can be very close to aliens, on others no chance.

These are things you will not experience much in real racing, other than perhaps one make formulae.

Huttu proved he was quick, was obviously capable of running decent lap times, but not breaking lap records. He simply could not cope with being in the car, something I myself have experienced too!  Similarly to pilots, but as a trainee pilot you are sent away and forced to get through this with repeated exercises to cope, not many race drivers are going to put up with that!.

Oddly a lot of top guys can't cope with sims, I have used one actually that Schumacher got very sick on!

 

No doubt sims have their part to play, down to the individual I guess and if Max finds value in it who am I to argue with him. I guess he has the very best of both worlds..

 

As good as they are currently, they don't and won't ever re-create the ass twitching moment one goes through when you're on the edge of losing a highly loaded car at 100mph + or the euphoria of getting it exactly right, or the lightness in your stomach as a car goes airborne over a blind crest, or the heat, vibration, noise, g's and smells. It's an all consuming experience that lights up your senses like nothing else. A sim racer will never understand what it feels like to be on the edge of smashing up their pride and joy and the financial headache that would come with it..

 

I fully agree, that a sim can never be the real thing. I'm also quite confident that most sim racers agree with that, and are able to separate reality from fantasy.

But for what sim racing offers, it's not just the actual racing experience (and that's pretty freaking good all by itself) but some sub-sets of skills that are required for either discipline. For instance, when you feel the back start to some out, you automatically counter-steer, that response is now so automatic you don't even think about it until after the fact. Or balancing the throttle against the car's balance in an awkward corner to keep from spinning out. I can now blast through turn two at Mosport and balance the throttle, without any conscious thought. I can cause the car to rotate without even thinking, while before it was a very deliberate and slow action. You can learn these valuable skills in a sim, and transfer them directly to the real race track.

Okay for the mist and heavy wet clothes, cold feet and neck-breaking G-pull in the corners. But how do you figure one would gauge how close (or whether there even is) a car is on the side? How much less of the road ahead shall one sees? If my computer screen edges "block" off more of the scenery than any roll-cage ever will, is that an advantage that makes it easier for the sim racer?

 

If you're thinking Mario-Kart (Gran Turismo, Forza, ...) -like view from 20 feet behind the car, that's not what people talking about sim above have in mind.

OK, in real life, how do you gauge how close another car is? By sound and visuals. Same with sims, I can hear exactly where another car is without seeing it, and as far as visuals, they now have triple screens that encompass the complete peripheral vision, out to almost 180 degrees.

In iRacing there is just one driver's view, from the cockpit. But it is realistic in that you can raise the view just like raising the seat.

There is no "advantage that makes it easier for the sim racer?" Because a simulator replicates the same visuals, it does not augment. The following video is what Huttu was seeing at Okayama. It was just the center monitor, but he had two others to see the sides.

Forget multi screen set ups with 180 degree views, like I mentioned in my post; they're history.

Full 360 degree 'where you look is what you see' gaming with the Oculus Rift.

https://youtu.be/JiB8IaDkTPE?t=311

(Obviously the viewing area is narrowed down just for his side by side YouTube video, but this was a good example video to see how it works on screen vs his real life movements)

Edit: This is a good non-sided by side video of the Oculus Rift

Edited by RedBaron, 10 September 2015 - 09:14.

I run iRacing with an Oculus Rift, It's a bit blurry, but awesome anyway as it feels so much more real than triple screens - the restricted horizontal FOV feels like a helmet!

I run iRacing with an Oculus Rift, It's a bit blurry, but awesome anyway as it feels so much more real than triple screens - the restricted horizontal FOV feels like a helmet!

Is the rift you have a beta/development version? As the final finished product isn't released until 2016. I'm sure it will be a big improvement.

Edited by RedBaron, 10 September 2015 - 14:09.

Is the rift you have a beta/development version? As the final finished product isn't released until 2016. I'm sure it will be a big improvement.

Yes, it's the DK2. Great as it is (imho), I'm pleased it'll be getting even better in the near future.

Forget multi screen set ups with 180 degree views, like I mentioned in my post; they're history.

 

Full 360 degree 'where you look is what you see' gaming with the Oculus Rift.

It's the future, baby! The future!

so much for what was an affordable option for learning how to race ..

Maybe my sponsor will cough up for a 3-D full on immersive VR rig ?

Jp

For the money that some of these rigs cost, you could buy a cheap car and actually race.

Sure the sunk costs are big, but after that....

And a lot of that stuff you're just buying for the Wow factor. The things you really need in a sim are a solid PC to run it well, and the best wheel/brake pedal you can afford.

Oculus Rift (which I will stop banging on about in every post I make soon) will only be around $300. Way cheaper than 3 quality LCD screens + set up to stand them together.

Not including the console/computer you could easily get a stationary sim set up for less than $1000, wheel, pedals, rift and seating.

Forget Sim Racing, the way F1 has evolved it's the guys in their Saxo's and Clio's in Halfords car park late at night under streetlights that are receiving ideal training for many of the current circuits.  Not just the driving aspect either, very small groups of spectators with very little car knowledge hang around both.  

It's interesting though. Like - what other sport in the world can be even slightly 'realistically' simulated via computer?

There's flight sims, which I know can come close to the real thing as well, but flying is not a sport. There are no competitors. Well, there's Red Bull Air Races, but there's no game for that(though there is one in development).

But as of right now, I think sim racing is almost exclusively a sport that actually does have practical advantages in 'playing' on a computer.

Pretty cool, I think. I know it's definitely made me feel much closer to the sport, with a far greater appreciation for what's going on and the skills needed. I mean, I actually got interested in motorracing because of Gran Turismo 3. Initially, I just liked cars and played GT3 to collect cars and everything. But the more practice I got, the better I got, the more cars I could buy or unlock, and it created an incentive to get faster and faster. Eventually, it led to me really loving the racing and the satisfaction of learning how to drive and race better, and so I started watching racing. From then on, I've got into both aspects more and more. The more I sim race and the better I get, the more I love real life racing, which makes me want to do more and more sim racing.

I don't think any other sport can really claim that same sort of closeness. I love it.

Yep I totally agree.  It's great that we can actually get a taste of what it is like to race, even if we are at a much lower level than anyone who is doing real racing.  It has given me a much better appreciation for racecraft, racing lines, managing tyre wear and keeping them clean, car setups, etc.  I appreciate certain tracks a lot more after driving them in sims too.  Hungaroring up until the last few years was never the most exciting F1 race, but it's a fantastic circuit to drive around in a sim.

I think the reason you can simulate racing much more closely than other sports is that the input device can be very close to what real racing drivers use.  A steering wheel, some pedals, and maybe a shifter are basically the same whether they are in a real car or plugged into a computer.  Of course you can't truly capture the experience of doing the real thing, but you can get a lot closer than any other sport.  Even the "expensive" consumer simulators (like iRacing) are MUCH cheaper than even the cheapest forms of real racing too, which opens it up to an audience who otherwise would have never had the opportunity to do it.  You can do countless laps on world-renowned circuits in anything from a go-kart to a F1 car for a few hundreds dollars/pounds/euros.  You could spend that much on one set of tyres in real racing.

Just buying your safety gear and licenses will cover a computer(helmet) wheel(suit) and iRacing subscription(boots and gloves).

Not sure if it's been mentioned here already, but Bottas used to do quite a bit of simracing when he was younger in LFS. But once his career got more serious he stopped. Nick Catsburg as well. Personally I don't think it is a useful tool once you're already at the top level, but for sure when you are younger and are new to everything, getting an understanding of what makes you fast is much easier on a sim and can translate into real life. I'm not sure I buy the racecraft training though, I don't think what Max is doing with Atze can really be that useful because it is just messing around, and there is psychology involved in an overtake which won't be there in a private practice session. Regularly racing at a high level in sim racing could prove useful if racecraft is a weakness, but nobody with a real life career has time to do that anyways.

Edited by Logiso, 10 September 2015 - 18:58.

As much as he is derided in these parts, I raced a few F3 races on rFactor about 7 or 8 years ago with one Esteban Gutierrez, when he was in Formula BMW at the time in real life. He was much quicker that the rest of us. Hence I could never call the guy a slow pay driver without hurting my own pride more!

Ye, I've raced with, or - at least been entered in the same race as Juncadella, Vandoorne, The Van der Linde brothers, Nic Hamilton and some more that I don't remember. It's amazing how humble they are when doing simracing, it really is a pleasure being in the same race as those guys. Well, not Vandoorne, but that's a different story.

Edited by Myrvold, 11 September 2015 - 00:16.

As much as he is derided in these parts, I raced a few F3 races on rFactor about 7 or 8 years ago with one Esteban Gutierrez, when he was in Formula BMW at the time in real life. He was much quicker that the rest of us. Hence I could never call the guy a slow pay driver without hurting my own pride more!

Well it does make you realize that these guys, even some of the very poor ones at F1 level, are stupidly quicker than the average guy out there even if he tries really hard and studies everything really seriously. BUT, wasn't Gutierrez a FBMW world champ? He only seems to have lost talent ever since. 

 

 

An instrument to aid knowledge and understanding that is true..

 

However I can't see how a "virtual" simulated environment can sharpen "real life" skills though, the two don't go together.

 

I think that's a bit close-minded.  Some things translate well, other things translate somewhat, and some other not at all.  Whatever skills you can sharpen online are the skills you won't have to sharpen in real life, and thus free up your mental bandwidth to focus on things that you haven't learned in sims.  When soccer players practice, it's not like the real game either, and yet for some strange reason they still do it anyway.

Forget Sim Racing, the way F1 has evolved it's the guys in their Saxo's and Clio's in Halfords car park late at night under streetlights that are receiving ideal training for many of the current circuits.  Not just the driving aspect either, very small groups of spectators with very little car knowledge hang around both.  

Jacques Villeneuve used Microprose Grand Prix 2 to learn the F1 circuits for 1996.

Ahh... Grand Prix 2... that takes me back.
 

Well it does make you realize that these guys, even some of the very poor ones at F1 level, are stupidly quicker than the average guy out there even if he tries really hard and studies everything really seriously. BUT, wasn't Gutierrez a FBMW world champ? He only seems to have lost talent ever since.

Max would have started his sim racing basically in diapers (I am just presuming here), and always had a high level of reality. Also, basically straight out of diapers, he's been able to see the distinction between sim and track. So perhaps he's had the chance to fully wire his brain to be able to translate the one into the other. 
The net effect may be small for him at this stage, but it seems he just breathes racing and does sim when he can't drive. IMO better for wiring the brain, certainly as his is not fully matured, then sitting out 2 weeks or more between F1 races and just hit the gym and sign autographs. We have to note that he was instantly really quick in Monaco FP1.

Digging up an older thread:

In relation to what arguments are happening between two or more non-F1 professional drivers and their times in the sim, does it make any sense for a GP team to employ top sim racers to do a lot of the hard yard in the team simulator? It is almost a natural environment for these guys and i would think it provides another perspective into set up, racing lines, pedal work etc.

Is that already being done?