Almost-moves: Engines

Red Bull was in strong talks with Ferrari and Mercedes for an engine for 2016.

Do you know some almost-moves for engines?

McLaren with Lamborghini/Chrysler in 1994

Hesketh with Ferrari in 1976

Lotus with Honda in 1963.

Hill with Alfa Romeo in 1974.

Minardi with Alfa Romeo in 1985.

Ligier with Alfa Romeo in 1987.

AGS mit MGN in 1989.

Lotus with Isuzu in 1991.

I seem to recall that Shadow tested a Matra engine at Silverstone.

I seem to recall that Shadow tested a Matra engine at Silverstone.

And raced it in the DN7.

Twice!

Tyrrell might have been one of the first teams to run a Renault turbo engine but it didn't happen - or did they test an engine in a P34?

In Paul Fearnley's article on the 1966 season ( current issue of Motor Sport ), it is mentioned that Brabham had considered, briefly (in '64, in anticipation of the new formula) using a V8 based on a Japanese Prince unit.

I can recall reading of Brabham considering a Japanese motor, but I always assumed it had some connection with Honda, as per their subsequent F2 fitment - whereas Prince seem to have been an independent concern until around '66 when absorbed into Nissan.

Actually, I'm not sure this would qualify as a 'almost' anything, as we are told the unit was deemed unsuitable very early on.  

Beyond having vaguely heard the name Prince, I knew next to nothing of the marque. I see that Wikipedia tells us it is the same as WW2 aircraft company (should have guessed that really) - and in 1946 produced an electric car.

Edited by 2F-001, 07 December 2015 - 15:18.

very interesting, thank you very much!

Ligier worked together with Maserati in the 70s in Le Mans. They also had a 3-litres engine. Were there never plans to work together in F1 as well?

I seem to remember rumours about Prost getting Mercedes engines for 1999 or possibly 2000.

Ligier worked together with Maserati in the 70s in Le Mans. They also had a 3-litres engine. Were there never plans to work together in F1 as well?

Ligier had produced a road car called the JS2 which was equipped with a Maserati V6 of the same guise as the one used in the Citroën SM luxury saloon car.  They ran a racing version of the JS2 with the tuned-up version of the production Maserati V6 ( which I think was around 2.4 l capacity ) in the World Sportscar Championship around 73/74 and later fitted a Cosworth in the cars which then ran as prototypes, 75 thereabouts....I don't think the Maserati engine ( which was way down on power against the "pure" 3 liter racing engines ) was ever considered in Ligier's F1 projects .....

That was one of the reasons why Alain Prost hired Nick Heidfeld for the 2000 season. Having an upcoming German driver in his team seemed to be a good asset. In the end it wasn't enough to persudade Mercedes to supply them with engines.  

Lotus with Honda in 1963.

Hill with Alfa Romeo in 1974.

Minardi with Alfa Romeo in 1985.

Ligier with Alfa Romeo in 1987.

AGS mit MGN in 1989.

Lotus with Isuzu in 1991.

I have a photo somewhere of the MGN W12, taken a few years ago in Guy Nègre's premises near Nice, where he and his son were developing a compressed-air engine project that was going to revolutionize all our lives next year. (I believe that is still a work in progress.) The W12 was usefully compact but apparently not very light. I think it got as far as a single test installed in an old AGS before the money ran out. It probably would not have worked in any case. 

I took a phone call or two from Frank Williams at home when my dad was out, it must have been around 1993 or 1994.... I don't know how far down the road discussions got. I remember how weird it was to be doing my school homework only to be talking to the (at the time) most successful team owner in recent F1 history on the phone the next minute.

McLaren's Teddy Mayer wanted Renault engines for 1982 but Dennis was not happy with that.

They also talked to some engine builders like Weslake to build a turbo charged engine for them.

I talked to Klaus Ludwig some days ago and he told me that Colin Chapman was in Germany at Zakspeed to order a F1 engine by Zakspeed for his Lotus team. Zakspeed turned down the offer but Ludwig say that was a big fault because together they could had been very successful.

Odd story you've been told there History Fan, Zakspeed entered F1 in 1985, and first ran their car in testing in late 1984.

Do i need to add anymore.....

Yes?  Zakspeed were running turbo versions of the BDA series of engine well before their F1 adventure and could have been a potential supplier for Lotus before Chapman's demise

Ok, then , i will add some more...

I'm well aware of the BDA derived Zakspeed engine and its timeline, and its possible that Chapman did ask them what they could offer, although in his bio Peter Warr relates that Chapman tasked him with finding an engine, early in 1982. Frustratingly Warr doesnt say who he spoke to besides Renault, its fair to assume it included BMW, Honda and possibly the TAG Porsche.

So what i find a bit odd is the implication that Chapman went to Germany to order engines from Zakspeed which, at that time, had not actually run in a car and may not even have run in 1.5 litre form on a dyno.

If there is any substance to the story i would be surprised if it was more than a 'fishing expedition'.

Tyrrell might have been one of the first teams to run a Renault turbo engine but it didn't happen - or did they test an engine in a P34?

Gene - was the option to use the turbo in either the 6 wheeler or a new conventional chassis still there when the project was abandoned? Or did Renault , or elf, pull the plug on Tyrrell? Or was it clear that there were enough issues to solve in house for the works team that supplying what was still basically a rolling test bed was not viable?

Peter

Edited by PeterElleray, 28 May 2016 - 09:44.

Thanks - probably the right move for Tyrrell at that time, Maurice's car and a DFV. Shame about the fan though!

Will be in touch

Peter

Edited by Zippel, 08 June 2016 - 21:35.

Prost and Mercedes would have been a big suprise as Mercedes was just involved with McLaren and it took a lot of more years to supply a second team.

there were rumours in 1988 about Opel is building engines for Lotus funded by Camel (like TAG/Porsche)

Tyrrell and some other teams wanted to buy the TAG-Porsche engines in 1984/1985 but that engines were exklusively for McLaren.

There were rumours in 1988 about Mercedes partnering March for the F1 entry in 1991

Ford wanted to have an own team or working together with Brabham before Haas joined the story...

In 1988 Max Mosley said that there are 5 Japanese and 3 European Manufactures wanting to enter F1.

Japanese: Subaru, Isuzu, Toyota, Yamaha, what's the fifth?

European: Lamborghini, Mercedes, Peugeot

Ford built a V12 engine in 1992.

Edited by TennisUK, 18 August 2017 - 23:47.

I have a photo somewhere of the MGN W12, taken a few years ago in Guy Nègre's premises near Nice, where he and his son were developing a compressed-air engine project that was going to revolutionize all our lives next year. (I believe that is still a work in progress.) The W12 was usefully compact but apparently not very light. I think it got as far as a single test installed in an old AGS before the money ran out. It probably would not have worked in any case. 

 I saw this in the Life F1 car at Silverstone 1990 surely ? Not for long - it was about  10secs off the pace

Talking of Zakspeed, interesting that THEY managed to get their 4 cylinder turbo F1 engine working OK.#

But Cosworth, probably using much the same engine or versions of it could not!

Zakspeed, Ilmor, Hart - Small specialist who were all very very capable.

 I saw this in the Life F1 car at Silverstone 1990 surely ? Not for long - it was about  10secs off the pace

The Life W12 engine was not the same at all as the MGN one. That one has only been tested in an old AGS once. The Life engine was of Italian origin, while the MGN was French

Yamaha was close to sign a contract with March but they wanted Suzuki to drive for March and March wanted to stay with Gugelmin and Capelli

Dennis wanted to buy Ligier in 1993 to get the Renault engines for McLaren

From Heinz Prüller's GP Story:

Tyrrell was close to use the BMW turbo engines that goes to Arrows instead

McLaren was in negotations to Honda engines for 1980 onwards

Williams was in talks to use Chevrolet engines in 1989

Minardi was very close to use Renault engines in 2001.

McLaren was in negotations to Honda engines for 1980 onwards

What engine would that have been? Their old V12??? Or six NR500 engines in a row


Another case for thinkbeforeyoupost.edu

I have a better option: Write what people say. Ron Dennis was quoted in a year book from 1988 that McLaren was in strong negotations in 1980. Honda was very keen on joining Formula One back then and they realised it with Spirit some years later.

 

yes the negotations were in 1980.

At Goodwood on Saturday the commentary mentioned Toleman approached Lancia in 1981 to see whether they'd do a 1.5l turbo version of the Beta's engine.

Yeah that rings a bell with me Ens. That winter, 80-81, there were a lot of odd rumours concerning engines/drivers/teams for the 81 season.  

I took a phone call or two from Frank Williams at home when my dad was out, it must have been around 1993 or 1994.... I don't know how far down the road discussions got. I remember how weird it was to be doing my school homework only to be talking to the (at the time) most successful team owner in recent F1 history on the phone the next minute.

Forgive my ignorance, but am I correct in assuming that your father was Paul Morgan?

1994 might have been the year, since during the summer, Flavio Briatore bought the Ligier team and subsequently moved its Renault engine contract to Benetton for 1995 and beyond. Perhaps Williams, losing one of it's key differentiators, was looking at alternatives.

At Goodwood on Saturday the commentary mentioned Toleman approached Lancia in 1981 to see whether they'd do a 1.5l turbo version of the Beta's engine.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 03 October 2022 - 22:10.