Australian Super 5000 Series

yes, that is the whole point of this series. A nod to old F5000.

Corner speeds have to be Supercar, F4, Porsche, etc, comparable.

Eastern Creek is already certified for F3000-grade cars, Philip Island likewise AFAIK.  Similarly, Adelaide parklands street circuit, Albert Park street circuit and Surfers Paradise street circuit are certified for much faster cars, so are perfectly suitable too.  The Bend Motorsport park is grade 2 FIA, so is also suitable for F3000 cars.  So that's six venues already.

Eastern Creek A1GP (F3000) onboard with Hulkenberg: https://www.youtube....h?v=zlCliZ5qsms

Downforce makes fast, as you can see, the A1GP corners beautifully at between 2g and 3g lateral force.  (And an F3000 is already very low downforce compared to F1!)

Formula Holden had identical aero to F3000 (they were F3000 cars with V6 engines) and successfully raced (and held lap records!) at small national tracks all over Australia, for example Mark "Potsie" Webber takes on Mallala: https://www.youtube....h?v=NJB6HucrwLA

Why should S5000 be no improvement on Formula Holden from 20 years ago!?  Without a good level of downforce, there is IMO no way the S5000 class will promote future F1 talents of the likes of Hulkenberg or Webber -- that would be a real pity.

All fair points, but there is plenty on the other side too.  This is about more than just drifting

 

Indycar decreased overall downforce by 20% for 2018 and I think the overall spectacle was improved, even if the cornering speed is now lower. 

Yes Indycars have choosen a good level of downforce.  Recall however, in 2019 Indycars still corner at 3gs on road courses.  That is still a good level of downforce!

The S5000 has far less downforce than that, a floor that makes almost no downforce, paired to a small front and rear wing -- the downforce level is similar to Formula 3 while the car weighs much, much, much more than a F3 = lumbering, unresponsive car.  Indycars have chosen a good level for a road circuits, whereas S5000 have chosen far too little and will barely generate more lateral force than closed top saloons. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 18 August 2019 - 11:16.

So it’s using a big old V8 for no particularly good reason then? Just as a sort of nod to the old F5000?

It's a big V8, but it's not old.  It's the aluminium DOHC Ford Coyote/Aluminator V8.

It is however, very heavy for a "racing engine". It weighs 195 kg and produces 600hp, whereas a 2.0L four cylinder turbocharged engine would weigh about 110 kg to make the same 600hp. 

[TBH I am not sure why the organisers didn't choose the Chevrolet LT376/535 6.2L pushrod crate engine, it weighs a little bit less (about 5-10 kg less), revs lower for that "thumpy V8 sound" that they wanted, and is a lot narrower than the Coyote thanks to the lack of OHCs.  (If you are unaware, the Chervolet LT series is the more modern direct injected replacement for the Chevrolet LS series.) ]

That is why, IMO, the car should have a decent amount of downforce to compensate for the lethargic cornering that would otherwise result from having such a big, heavy engine (relative to it's power ouput).  F1 have the right idea: the cars have become heavy, so the regulators have added more downforce to get the corner speeds up and increase the spectacle. 

As we saw in Hungary and Germany, F1 cars can still race each other perfectly fine -- no more processional than say V8 Supercars, which have almost no downforce yet still make processional racing anyway.  The idea low downforce = close racing is not true.  It's slipstreaming = close racing.  No downforce cars like Formula Ford can indeed slipstream better, but this does not exclude downforce cars from being able to slipstream! 

Only 350 kg more than 90's F1 cars.

"Only"

850kg is quite heavy for an open wheel car.  Unfortunately, these S5000 will barely, if at all, faster than the F3 cars they are based on.  Because the F3 version is so much lighter [ 522 kg vs 850 kg ], even if it only makes 270hp from it's production standard 2.0L turbocharged Honda Accord engine.

The words of Mr. Chapman seem to have been forgotten in designing the S5000, which is a real pity. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 18 August 2019 - 11:37.

My main complaint with this series is why they had to end up with these butt-ugly cars - spec series could have handled the optics much better.  To me, that's an instant turn-off.

Edited by maximilian, 18 August 2019 - 14:18.

It's a big V8, but it's not old. It's the aluminium DOHC Ford Coyote/Aluminator V8.

It is however, very heavy for a "racing engine". It weighs 195 kg and produces 600hp, whereas a 2.0L four cylinder turbocharged engine would weigh about 110 kg to make the same 600hp.

[TBH I am not sure why the organisers didn't choose the Chevrolet LT376/535 6.2L pushrod crate engine, it weighs a little bit less (about 5-10 kg less), revs lower for that "thumpy V8 sound" that they wanted, and is a lot narrower than the Coyote thanks to the lack of OHCs. (If you are unaware, the Chervolet LT series is the more modern direct injected replacement for the Chevrolet LS series.) ]

As we saw in Hungary and Germany, F1 cars can still race each other perfectly fine --

Edited by FPV GTHO, 19 August 2019 - 03:10.

It's a big V8, but it's not old.  It's the aluminium DOHC Ford Coyote/Aluminator V8.
 
It is however, very heavy for a "racing engine". It weighs 195 kg and produces 600hp, whereas a 2.0L four cylinder turbocharged engine would weigh about 110 kg to make the same 600hp. 
 
[TBH I am not sure why the organisers didn't choose the Chevrolet LT376/535 6.2L pushrod crate engine, it weighs a little bit less (about 5-10 kg less), revs lower for that "thumpy V8 sound" that they wanted, and is a lot narrower than the Coyote thanks to the lack of OHCs.  (If you are unaware, the Chervolet LT series is the more modern direct injected replacement for the Chevrolet LS series.) ]

Or they could have gone with one of the V8s from Supercars. Smaller and lighter than even the LT and already above the 600hp level.

But I guess cost was the issue.

 

 
That is why, IMO, the car should have a decent amount of downforce to compensate for the lethargic cornering that would otherwise result from having such a big, heavy engine (relative to it's power ouput).  F1 have the right idea: the cars have become heavy, so the regulators have added more downforce to get the corner speeds up and increase the spectacle. 
850kg is quite heavy for an open wheel car.  Unfortunately, these S5000 will barely, if at all, faster than the F3 cars they are based on.  Because the F3 version is so much lighter [ 522 kg vs 850 kg ], even if it only makes 270hp from it's production standard 2.0L turbocharged Honda Accord engine.
 

An alternative chassis may have been the one used in Formula V8 3.5, which closed down a couple of years ago. They would have had decent downforce.

If they can get a full grid of these, I'll pay money to see them.  There may be other ways of skinning this cat, but until something better comes along it will do me, the prospect of 15 or 20 of these accelerating away from the grid is almost too good to be true

On the other hand, still only one car (whenever that video was shot) .... ?

Seems to be a decent field of these things, will be interesting to see the first race with Barrichello.

Confirmed drivers so far:

BRM: Rubens Barrichello, TBA

MTEC: Matthew Brabham. Tim Macrow

AGI: John Martin, Tom Alexander

Apex: Michael Gibson

Eggleston: Will Brown

also tested have Luis Leeds, Ricky Capo, Beau Beaton and James Golding

11 cars/drivers testing this week at PI, ahead of the weekend's racing.  That is better than I feared might be the case.  Being on the support bill for the 2020 AGP should help with entries too.

Edited by krapmeister, 18 September 2019 - 03:15.

That is a fast corner, and the wall is a looong way away, across a gravel trap too.  They must be carrying a lot of speed through there ...   The danger is that they loop it back into the inside concrete wall, as many have done.  That would put paid to a fast repair, but even so that car looks to be in a pretty bad way - there will be a bit of midnight oil burned over that one.

Surprised this isn't here already...

S5000 announced as newest support category for Formula 1 Rolex Australian Grand Prix 2020 https://www.s5000.co...rand-prix-2020/

Post 113  ...

Surprised this isn't here already...

 

S5000 announced as newest support category for Formula 1 Rolex Australian Grand Prix 2020 https://www.s5000.co...rand-prix-2020/

That's exciting.

They need to built more cars though, a nine car field isn't really that exciting. 

The good thing is that the cars sound a bit of a handful to drive, just like the old F5000s were 

Edited by krapmeister, 18 September 2019 - 11:14.

I am a bit surprised how good this series seems to develop...

Hope that continues.

Confirmed drivers so far:

BRM: Rubens Barrichello, Alex Davison, Tom Berryman

MTEC: Matthew Brabham. Tim Macrow, Taylor Cockerton

AGI: John Martin, Tom Alexander

Australian Racing Enterprises: Michael Gibson

Eggleston: Will Brown

Milldun: Barton Mawer

Modena: Ricky Capo

Were times from this first test session published?

Edited by krapmeister, 19 September 2019 - 00:46.

I am a bit surprised how good this series seems to develop...

The series promoter is paying for everything so far. 

Were times from this first test session published?

Data request bump.

The series promoter is paying for everything so far. 

so in 2 years the series will be dead again. Hmm...

 

The series promoter is paying for everything so far. 

so in 2 years the series will be dead again. Hmm...

This is definitely what I'm interested in tracking. Is there going to be enough sponsor/backer/fan interest to sustain this beyond 1-3 seasons? 

https://livestream.c.../events/8821078

https://www.speedcaf...nals-sandown-4/

shannon nationals stream if anyone wants to watch it, qualy just happened everyone got through safely in pretty tricky conditions.

qual race starts in couple of mins

DRS spoiled me. Everytime I think they will open it and get an easy pass on the straight.

Good to see cars that wanna get away from under you when u press the go pedal

Only 3 seconds a lap faster than a lumbering V8 saloon that weighs 450kg more. 

The show itself was fine, but not sure why the aversion to fit a decent amount of downforce...  Downforce makes fast!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 21 September 2019 - 04:47.

The track was very wet a few hours a go so there really isn't a lot of grip. Also i'm guessing they don't want to bin any of them seeming they have no spares. They clocked 290km/h at phillip island so they arent exactly slow.

Only 3 seconds a lap faster than a lumbering V8 saloon that weighs 450kg more.

The show itself was fine, but not sure why the aversion to fit a decent amount of downforce... Downforce makes fast!

Edited by krapmeister, 21 September 2019 - 09:23.

I watched the quali race, the series has potential.

ARG seem to be prepared to do whatever it takes to set up a number of series to run in opposition to the supertaxis

Spent an entertaining few hours down at the Dandenong Rd end at Sandown today 

TCR races were good, and the S5000s looked and sounded great IMO but unfortunately we didn't get to see an awful lot of the feature race. It didn't really get going with a couple of SC's after people beached themselves in the gravel and then the race was ended early at 11 laps due to the massive accident of Alex Davison on the back straight. He got a touch from behind by Matthew Brabham which turned him into the barriers - pretty big hit and the barriers needed to be repaired, hence why the race was called.

Alex was ok but the car looks toast - video of the accident can be found here: https://www.youtube....h?v=YdceiD9hDwM

Article here: https://www.speedcaf...ng-s5000-crash/

Really disappointed that we didn't get to see a proper race, but will definitely make an effort to get to the next race down this way...

Edited by krapmeister, 22 September 2019 - 10:47.

I think it’s a great idea but it hasn’t really taken off yet, obviously. This first weekend was a 5/10 really wasn’t it, 6 if you’re generous. Long term there’s such a gap in the market for it. Australia has a long, proud history of tin top racing and its crying out for its own Super Formula or Indycar equivalent and I dearly hope this is the start of something really big. It has so, so much potential.

So much potential, and free to air SBS TV coverage (as well as being on SBS on demand https://www.sbs.com....s-tcr-australia).  OK we all can see that the cars could handle a bit more downforce but it's good to see that the fastest race cars in Australia are wings and slicks single seaters. In truth a bit of a disappointing race (/ safety car parade) but a big effort by all involved who should be congratulated for getting it off the ground given the initial birth pains.  I'll look forward to catching a round live if they come up my way (i.e. at Winton) next season, although I hear I'll be able to see them at the Australian GP before then anyway. 

Edited by RacingGreen, 23 September 2019 - 01:01.

TCR + S5000 paired together on SBS is pretty good. It's early days so you can't really judge it as a series. But the cars can follow eachother and pass, they are hard to drive and seem to be pretty safe. It will be interesting to see how they handle the bend in november. I love Supercars, it's awesome. But i really hope either TCR or S5000 (or both combined) takes off because we really need an alternative in Australia so not everything is so dependent on 1 category.

https://www.youtube....h?v=iSCy7nBqZ2Q

https://www.youtube....h?v=A2mNXqSCJIo

Given that, in the end, supercars didn't lunch super 5000 and the series has actually started, could one of our Mods please rename this thread with something a little more appropriate?

Button perhaps, but I can't see Alonso and Rosberg there...

Button perhaps, but I can't see Alonso and Rosberg there...

Why not?

I'm not sure if the promotors are aiming for all those drivers, or they're just the shortlist for a smaller number of seats.

I am sure they are keen to get any of them.  Rubens gave the new series a boost and an international flavour and they will surely want to have him along again.  Button might be persuaded.  Alonso is Toyota so no chance there.  And Rosberg is out of it.  Maybe they should try Hulkenberg?  Or Villeneuve?