Stop Press/Historical accuracy in documentaries....[merged]

Could've been worse. Irischer Fahrer?

Ho ho, Michael O'Ferner.  

The Tellygaffe rewriting history again:

 

The British Grand Prix is the sport’s oldest race ...

It's from a story called Migrant stowaways found inside truck of Ferrari F1 team after arriving at Silverstone for British Grand Prix. Bylined as by a 'sports news correspondent'.

But to them, of course, (as much of the mass media - if not the public), "F1", and specifically the World Championship - is a sport all on its own.

How shocking for the FIA though: folks getting into the paddock without a pass. Disgraceful...

Edited by 2F-001, 12 July 2019 - 07:53.

The race came alive as Powell attacked on the inside at turn one. At turn two, Chadwick uncharacteristically dropped to third as Powell slipped through the gap to take the lead and Kimilainen followed into second.

Coming out of turn three, Visser attacked Chadwick for third place as the Briton struggled for pace, but she could not pass until two-and-a-half minutes plus one lap to go.

This is Brands Hatch. These corners have had iconic, evocative names since time immemorial (well, nearly). Why the **** don’t they use them?
 

I agree with your point, but if you were a proper grumpy old man you'd join me in deploring the use of silly names like Graham Hill Bend. It's still Bottom Bend as far as I'm concerned.

"Two and a half minutes plus one lap"...

What does that mean?

It was a time-limit race, Ray: 25 minutes plus, I think, one more lap in addition to the part-lap remaining when 25 minutes were up. So I think the journalist meant Visser took Chadwick at around the 22.30 mark, approximately three laps from the end. (Fastest lap was 1.23.30).

It was a time-limit race, Ray: 25 minutes plus, I think, one more lap in addition to the part-lap remaining when 25 minutes were up. So I think the journalist meant Visser took Chadwick at around the 22.30 mark, approximately three laps from the end. (Fastest lap was 1.23.30).

Half an hour plus one lap, IIRC.  Seems daft to me, though!

I watched both the W Series finale and the DTM race. I was appalled at the pathetic commentators for both races. The lady commentator was useless, had no idea about the points situation in the championship and kept contradicting herself and David Coulthard. The bloke doing the DTM appeared to think that there was a Derek Milner Straight.     

I am pleased to report that the commentators at the circuit were very well informed and kept us all up to date with championship positions during the W Formula race.

Sadly, that was about the only thing the TV commentator (Cottingham) had to say and so she repeated it at 30 second intervals throughout the race. Ad nauseam.

With 2 weeks to go until Formula 1 marks its 70th race anniversary on the 13th May, we invite you to join the celebrations. Send us your memories or photos of the first official Grand Prix in 1950.

Even Motor Sport are producing a "Formula 1 at 70" special  

WB and DSJ must be spinning in their graves in unison.

Edited by D-Type, 29 April 2020 - 21:01.

Quite apart from the tedious (and wrong) conflation with the drivers' world championship, 'Formula One' was nothing but a name for the grand prix formula anyway. It was just an administrative change. Ecclestone later promoted it is a "brand." We should get only excited about it if we're marketing enthusiasts rather than motor racing enthusiasts.

You're right , but that ship sailed a long time ago. But when I wonder? The BBC TV coverage opened up the sport in the mid 70s here and the show was called 'Grand Prix ' throughout the BBC tenure. But the F word was more prominent during ITV's hosting. I remember realising in 1996 , when the F1 Racing magazine was launched in the UK,  that in the public's eyes not only was the sport called simply F1 , but it had become a sport in its own right , having severed any connections ,with the wider motor sport community

For 1996 you can´t blame, as Formula 1 had become something of its own after 1981. When had ITV hosting started?

It annoys me, perhaps more than it should, to see the constant reference to the 1952-53 seasons as "Formula One" and that Alberto Ascari was a two time "Formula One" champion. If memory serves, even Motor Sport committed this faux pas many years ago by designating the 1952-53 Ferrari 500 as the best ever F-1 car.  Good grief. 

Tom
 

I saw a documentary recently about Mike Hawthorn where it was stated that he was the first British driver to score a F1 victory, at the 1953 French GP....

The ITV full-time hosting began in 1997, although they had televised the occasional GP in the days before the Beeb took over full-time in 1978.

From memory ITV rather than the BBC televised both the South African and Swedish GP's in 1978 Tim

From memory ITV rather than the BBC televised both the South African and Swedish GP's in 1978 Tim

Correct, and also the Monaco GP

I tend to be a bit more forgiving about mistakes from general media, but our specialist press sometimes commits blunders  that are pretty much inexcusable.  In the latest Octane magazine available here, there is a column called "In this month" and relates to May 31st, 1965. Its headline reads "Lotus wins Indy 500". And it contains som truly amazing news, such as Chapman making a deal with Ford "to use its fuel-injected 4,2 litre small block V8".   Gurney's Trenton woes, with east-west mounted Webers rather than longitudinal ones, must have been a figment of my suspect memory chip then...

But it gets worse. In 1964, "a Dunlop tyre began to delaminate, which resulted in a heavy crash into the wall, fortunately without injuring Clark" . And then, according to Octane's columnist, "in 1965 Chapman and Lotus engineer Len Terry came up with the Lotus 38. Using a monocoque rather than a spaceframe, its supension was offset to move the chassis to the left so that it sat closer to the inside of the track..."

To paraphrase Colin Chapman: "Oh, dearie me"

Edited by doc knutsen, 02 May 2020 - 08:19.

I haven't read Octane for many years and not that "In This Month" section mentioned in particular, but from the description it seems more inaccurate rather than completely wrong!? This is sadly very common these days by a combination of writers without the knowledge + the usual "dumbing down", ignorant and condescending attitude towards their readers.

The Indy 500 entries is slightly outside my field of interest but I always thought the 38 was more of a Len Terry design rather than Chapman's? 

Otherwise the description seems vaguely correct too. The Quad cam Indy engine was based on the basic design of the small block 289 but didn't share any parts, obviously.

They used lot of Aluminium and Magnesium and the overhead cams were gear driven. No doubt it was fuel injected (Hilborn with butterfly throttles)

Here's a photo of Jim Clark's car on the infield after the rear suspension collapsed, but somehow Jim avoided "crashing"

https://peterwindsor...f534bf037_b.jpg

Clear signs that big chunks of the Dunlop tyre thread have started to let go and even the whole thread starting to separate from the casing itself

and then causing the violent vibrations that led to the breakage of the suspension.

Apologies if I've misunderstood anything.

Edited by Myhinpaa, 03 May 2020 - 10:57.

I think the highlight of that one is the supposed change from spaceframe to monocoque three years after Chapman already did that...

The Webers thing is a real surprise, too.

It is always worth checking the difference between early press announcements and reports about what seemed to appear on the track on different days. Given that we're discussing a Lotus with backing from Ford, there will be a lot of original stories of varying accuracy which make it hard for a modern day writer.

I think the highlight of that one is the supposed change from spaceframe to monocoque three years after Chapman already did that..

 

Did they possibly mean that moncoques were a new thing in Indy cars?  I have no idea when monocoques replaces spaceframes in Indy cars - anyone know?

The Lotus 29 of '63 must have been the first monocoque car to be entered at Indy? Based on the 25 and with Weber carbs and Colotti gearbox.

Mickey Thompson's "Harvey Special" for '62 was a spaceframe design, but still revolutionary compared to the favoured Indy roadsters.

The Lotus 29 of '63 must have been the first monocoque car to be entered at Indy?

There's always someone who did it earlier, isn't there?

There's always someone who did it earlier, isn't there?

Until reaching the legitimate and true first, yes.

I haven't read Octane for many years and not that "In This Month" section mentioned in particular, but from the description it seems more inaccurate rather than completely wrong!? This is sadly very common these days by a combination of writers without the knowledge + the usual "dumbing down", ignorant and condescending attitude towards their readers.

 

The Indy 500 entries is slightly outside my field of interest but I always thought the 38 was more of a Len Terry design rather than Chapman's? 

Otherwise the description seems vaguely correct too. The Quad cam Indy engine was based on the basic design of the small block 289 but didn't share any parts, obviously.

They used lot of Aluminium and Magnesium and the overhead cams were gear driven. No doubt it was fuel injected (Hilborn with butterfly throttles)

 

Here's a photo of Jim Clark's car on the infield after the rear suspension collapsed, but somehow Jim avoided "crashing"

 

https://peterwindsor...f534bf037_b.jpg

 

Clear signs that big chunks of the Dunlop tyre thread have started to let go and even the whole thread starting to separate from the casing itself

and then causing the violent vibrations that led to the breakage of the suspension.

 

Apologies if I've misunderstood anything.

The 1963 Lotus 29 used the pushrod V8 fitted with Weber carburettors. The fuel-injected quad-cam engine came in 1964. And the Type 29 and 34 Lotii were, of course, monocoques as well. When Clark's nearside r tyre chunked, he brought the car to a standstill in the infield, he most certainly did not suffer a "heavy crash into the wall".  And all the Lotii from the Type 29 had offset suspension for Indy, not just the Type 38.

I beg to differ. I consider this type of mistake, with no apparent attempt to verify the "facts", to be inexcusable for what is seen as specialist press.

Edited by doc knutsen, 04 May 2020 - 07:54.

One could argue that the 29 and 34 were ladder frames and the 38 was the first true Lotus monococque. I think Len Terry would probably have gone along with that. 

One could argue that the 29 and 34 were ladder frames and the 38 was the first true Lotus monococque. I think Len Terry would probably have gone along with that. 

When the Type 25 made its debut at Zandvoort in 1962, the chassis construction was termed "monocoque" by the media, and by Chapman. Later it was sometimes  referred to as a "bathtub style" monocoque, with the driver sitting between two D-shaped alloy tubes fitting between fabricated steel bulkheads. Tony Rudd's 1963 effort for BRM was more of a true monocoque, in that it consisted of a tube with inner walls, and no detachable top body section, unlike the Lotus designs, just an opening necessary to fit the driver into the chassis. But it is splitting hairs, really. The Octane article referred to the Type 38 as being of monocoque design, unlike the previous Lotus Indy designs, which were described of being of  tubular space-frame construction. This they most definitely were not. I always thought Len Terry had looked very closely at the BRM P261 when laying out the Type 38.

Edited by doc knutsen, 04 May 2020 - 22:02.

“Fangio wins Italian Grand Prix”. Headline in Motor Sport October 1956. 
 

Plus ça change...

Eh? That article is 4 years old and poor Henry left us around 2 years ago in that awful road accident....

I didn't know that, how very sad.
As to it's being four years old, I only saw it yesterday via Facebook.   Goodwood must be posting from their archives.

I didn't know that, how very sad.
As to it's being four years old, I only saw it yesterday via Facebook.   Goodwood must be posting from their archives.

At the Goodwood members' Meeting shortly after Hope-Frost's dreadful accident, most of the competitors wore "Fever" stickers in his memory. I found it very touching.

I recall them being given to everyone arriving at the 2018 Members Meeting , a few weeks after his death . Mine's still on the inside of the boot of the MX5 , keeping various Prescott etc decals company. I did a quick interview with Henry at the Silverstone  Classic in 2017 , and he was a lovely man to talk to , with the trademark breathless enthusiasm much in evidence . And I' m not sure that anybody has quite filled his role yet

Edited by john aston, 10 May 2020 - 07:13.

Well, Giles Richards in The Grauniad has added to my knowledge. Apparently there were some 'supercharged 4-litre Talbot-Lagos' racing at Silverstone in 'F1’s first race' 70 years ago today. Not sure what a 'radiator grill' is either - is it for preparing your breakfast toast?

https://www.theguard...off-70-years-go

And as any fule kno, while Ferrari may well have been 'still preparing their cars for the next round at Monaco' they were actually more attracted by the F2 prize money at Mons the following day ...

Well, Giles Richards in The Grauniad has added to my knowledge.

They're at it again today. But it is hard to quibble about the great story of Tony Rolt's life and racing career.

https://www.theguard...-f1-motor-sport

They're at it again today. But it is hard to quibble about the great story of Tony Rolt's life and racing career.

 

https://www.theguard...-f1-motor-sport

Hmm, that set me thinking ... the Red Cross visitors escape subterfuge described there is used successfully in the 1961 film 'Very Important Person', which stars James Robertson Justice (aka Jimmy Justice in his Brooklands days). 'Very Important Person' was an original screenplay by one Jack Davies, who also wrote the screenplays for 'Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying Machines', 'Monte Carlo or Bust!' and 'The Fast Lady'. 'The Fast Lady' and 'Very Important Person' both feature not only JRJ but Leslie Phillips and Stanley Baxter as well; and of course the fast lady of the title was a vintage Bentley. Justice did the narration at the beginning of TMMITFM and the English hero is called Richard Mays - surely an amalgam of the names of two well-known English racing drivers of the 1930s.

I begin to suspect that Mr Davies might just have been a motor racing fan ... and a good mate of Jimmy Justice!

Classic and Sports  Car this month, re Le Mans 1968. Despite the rain  -" Poleman Siffert ...stuck to his slicks"  Hmm . I know  that F 1 only used slicks from Spring 1971, and so I very much doubt if a Porsche 908 was running slicks three years before . But as the journalist responsible , ex Motor Sport guy Jack Philips,  looks like he was born in 2007 , I guess we cut him some slack.       

In other news, in a recent (and actually very good ) podcast F1 guy Tom Clarkson mentions , in conversation with Daniil  Kvyat , how special the latter must have  felt when first testing at Fiorano 'where , y'know, you're following  the footsteps of . Villeneuve and Ascari'.

What ? That'd be the Ascari who died 17 years before Fiorano opened would it ?

Classic and Sports  Car this month, re Le Mans 1968. Despite the rain  -" Poleman Siffert ...stuck to his slicks"  Hmm . I know  that F 1 only used slicks from Spring 1971, and so I very much doubt if a Porsche 908 was running slicks three years before . But as the journalist responsible , ex Motor Sport guy Jack Philips,  looks like he was born in 2007 , I guess we cut him some slack.       

 

In other news, in a recent (and actually very good ) podcast F1 guy Tom Clarkson mentions , in conversation with Daniil  Kvyat , how special the latter must have  felt when first testing at Fiorano 'where , y'know, you're following  the footsteps of . Villeneuve and Ascari'.

 

What ? That'd be the Ascari who died 17 years before Fiorano opened would it ?

Surely a reference to the less well known Guiseppe Ascari, who drove the Fiorano road-sweeper for a living....

I begin to suspect that Mr Davies might just have been a motor racing fan ... and a good mate of Jimmy Justice!

JRJ, Leslie Phillips and Stanley Baxter worked together regularly for Independent Artists. Maybe they had friendly agents or casting friends to put them together at other times.

Jack Davies was clearly a motor sport fan. It would be nice to know more about him and any script ideas which were rejected!