Extinction Rebellion and Motorsport

The way they're doing it is more like a KERS system - a standardised system, to deliberately keep the costs down, than a full on move to electric vehicles.
 
There are reasons why BTCC hasn't gone all in and announced a switch to fully electric cars - such as the fact that most the grid is made up of small, independent teams who just don't have the budget to do that. For example, some teams have been running the same car for a few years now.
 
It's not to say it won't happen at some point, but definitely not in the short term, because there's some sizeable challenges that need to be overcome beforehand.

I didn't claim it was? Electrification is still electrification though, and it shows that they're aware of their technical place - to be a lower-cost adopter of matured technology representative of the market.

I disagree that there's any particular technical or financial challenge to overcome. I think the main reason we haven't seen it is that BTCC's technological role is more representative than pioneering. Which is fine, I'm not saying that should change at all. But I see a time coming in the next decade where full EVs can and should be a part of the grid.

BTCC races are short races of, what, 20 minutes give or take, have 350hp and weigh 1280kg. A Formula E car is 900kg total weight, races at 200kW (260hp) for a little over 45 minutes (with currently 8 minutes of that at 250kW). That suggests to me that it's entriely plausible to have a ~1200kg road model based EV run at ~270kW for about ~20 minutes in BTCC pretty soon, let alone in around 10 years time.

Smaller budget teams might not be any particular issue; if the performance is similar they can phase it in and have the old Hybrids and new EVs running concurrently. Also, though I doubt it would need to be relied upon, like it or not it's generally going to be increasingly easier to get sponsorship for a 'green' race program than one that isn't. With more EVs on the road you open up sponsorship options for companies wanting to advertise new charging services or EV maintenance capability.

As for 'short term', what do you mean by that? It's obvious they're not going to do this in the next few years. I would say this is entirely plausible stuff for BTCC in the late 2020s though.

Edited by Vielleicht, 19 April 2019 - 13:22.

I didn't claim it was? Electrification is still electrification though, and it shows that they're aware of their technical place - to be a lower-cost adopter of matured technology representative of the market.

 

I disagree that there's any particular technical or financial challenge to overcome. I think the main reason we haven't seen it is that BTCC's technological role is more representative than pioneering. Which is fine, I'm not saying that should change at all. But I see a time coming in the next decade where full EVs can and should be a part of the grid.

 

BTCC races are short races of, what, 20 minutes give or take, have 350hp and weigh 1280kg. A Formula E car is 900kg total weight, races at 200kW (260hp) for a little over 45 minutes (with currently 8 minutes of that at 250kW). That suggests to me that it's entriely plausible to have a ~1200kg road model based EV run at ~270kW for about ~20 minutes in BTCC pretty soon, let alone in around 10 years time.

 

Smaller budget teams might not be any particular issue; if the performance is similar they can phase it in and have the old Hybrids and new EVs running concurrently. Also, though I doubt it would need to be relied upon, like it or not it's generally going to be increasingly easier to get sponsorship for a 'green' race program than one that isn't. With more EVs on the road you open up sponsorship options for companies wanting to advertise new charging services or EV maintenance capability.

 

As for 'short term', what do you mean by that? It's obvious they're not going to do this in the next few years. I would say this is entirely plausible stuff for BTCC in the late 2020s though.

I wonder if the Jaguar I-Pace cars compare well.

I wonder if the Jaguar I-Pace cars compare well.

Good point actually. Would be interesting to know.

They are a fair bit heavier at a little over 2000kg but it has the standard and pretty large 90kWh battery in it. Oh and they use road tyres. They do run at 325 kW (436 bhp) for 25 minute races.

Also not your average BTCC base, I was envisioning more of a race prepared Nissan Leaf when writing the post I must say.

Edited by Vielleicht, 19 April 2019 - 17:25.

Quite simple.

Motor sports should just switch over to this. https://www.bosch-pr...ial-120448.html

While we do like conversation to flow naturally and we give a little leeway for OT conversation, the topic has been off-motorsport for over a day now so the non-motorsport part has been split to the Paddock Club. Feel free to continue there.

https://forums.autos...acing-comments/

While we do like conversation to flow naturally and we give a little leeway for OT conversation, the topic has been off-motorsport for over a day now so the non-motorsport part has been split to the Paddock Club. Feel free to continue there.

 

https://forums.autos...acing-comments/

Hmm.....since I don't especially wish to join the Paddock Club I guess I'm out of that conversation now :/

I always knew this thread was not going to end well.

Hmm.....since I don't especially wish to join the Paddock Club I guess I'm out of that conversation now :/

Hmm.....since I don't especially wish to join the Paddock Club I guess I'm out of that conversation now :/

Are you the reincarnation of Groucho Marx, by any chance?

It’s not like an onerous thing to do

Whenever I click on "The paddock club" it doesn't give me any link to an application to join...it merely says I should contact the admin. I've tried three times and not received any kind of response so I'm assuming I'm unwelcome there. 

Whenever I click on "The paddock club" it doesn't give me any link to an application to join...it merely says I should contact the admin. I've tried three times and not received any kind of response so I'm assuming I'm unwelcome there.

Quite simple.

 

Motor sports should just switch over to this. https://www.bosch-pr...ial-120448.html

Compared to where F1 was 6 or 7 years ago the sport has made good use of hybrid and recycled power in the cars, the technology that they have developed must help the manufacturers road car development in some way, and if so both the manufacturers and Liberty should be shouting from the rooftops about it. Sky are making an effort to reduce single use plastic and it would be good to see if they could invole this in GP weekends? 

Whenever I click on "The paddock club" it doesn't give me any link to an application to join...it merely says I should contact the admin. I've tried three times and not received any kind of response so I'm assuming I'm unwelcome there. 

 

Forum for FULL MEMBERS only (those with at least 30 posts on the board). The place to talk about (almost!) any non-motorsport topic, while sipping champagne and socialising with others. To gain access you have to PM the Paddock bouncer Slartibartfast and beg...

Clicky linky ...

Clicky linky ...

I've tried. Three times. And as a rule, I don't beg. 

I've tried. Three times. And as a rule, I don't beg. 

I guess you'll have to stick to talking about racing then.

Sky are making an effort to reduce single use plastic and it would be good to see if they could invole this in GP weekends? 

Abolish front wings.

I've tried. Three times. And as a rule, I don't beg.

Extinction Rebellion is such a cool name, I wish I'd have thought of it first, it would be a great name for my ageing rock band!

We did a gig on Monday in Soho, I usually drive in for the weeknight gigs, but it was the 1st since ULEZ came into force, so I took the tube in and would take a nightbus home. Got stranded at 2:30am, walked to Oxford Street only to find a big pink boat, I thought we'll never get home in that! Police said the nearest busses would be in Camden, but I had 2 guitars on my back, a load of stuff on a trolley and a missus wearing high heels and high on red wine.

I spotted a taxi and was like a man on a desert island having spotted a ship! Cost me an arm & a leg to get home!

Despite that, I got no beef with them, they're giving their time to fight for us all. Whether or not you believe that global warming is a problem, we could sure do with less pollution..

Edited by Loosenut, 22 April 2019 - 22:50.

I have only just now looked up what this was - being on the Autosport forums I honestly thought it was a new racing team...lol.

Edited by TF110, 23 April 2019 - 02:42.

Abolish front wings.

At a lot of races they do wind up being "single use" by the first few corners.  So I'm with you, front wings are single use plastic, and should therefore be banned!  Whole herds of carbonfiberlopes could be saved!

PS1: For those ignorant on the subject of carbonfiberlopes, they're an endangered species, the fur of which is used to reinforce composite parts.  It explains why CFP parts are so expensive.

PS2: You ask, why are they endangered if they're just being shorn for their fibers?  It's because the poor buggers itch to death after their first shearing, those of you who've worked with carbon fiber will understand!

This topic keeps straying off motor sport issues....

Trying to limit the conversation I would have thought that motor sport was particularly vulnerable to this type of protest because of difficulties policing the length of a circuit. If a dozen or so protesters were willing to pay the entrance fee they would easily be able to storm most circuits and gain a lot of publicity by sitting on the track, like a sort of modern day Emily Davison. Of course like Davison they would be taking their life in their hands but if they really had the conviction they could easily bring an event to a standstill.

Perhaps slightly ironically the motorsport most likely to be affected by protesters any time soon is Formula E in Paris this weekend by the Gilets Jaunes

Now I could be wrong, but I recall Bernie at one point saying F1 was offsetting enough carbon for the cars, the jets and the fans getting to and from the venue for a little while now? 

Bunch of greenies and those who identify with them or try to get cool points. I think it's sad and most of them are uneducated as to how we get electricity. Their 'green' transportation is right in front of them but the goalposts are always moving. I'm no climate study but I am educated enough on the subject to know that the same doomsday fear mongering has been going on for well over 40 years. I know that we've yet to all die by being underwater or lose the ice caps or whatever the next disaster talking point is. I can't take a hard stance one way or another but right now as the way it looks, these climate change people have been at this for decades and I'm not sure what to make of their exclamations.

I hope this doesn't make motorsports an electric affair. I enjoy what little noise we have from the engines. I think it's heading that way though because everyone is all in on this green thing.

In the UK at least atmosphere and climate science, alongside electricity generation and demand, has definitely been covered in schools as part of the curriculum and national GCSE exams for at least 10 years (I am sure it's longer but the quality of that coverage I cannot speak for). So amongst young people at least I do not believe that a lack of education is the problem here. 

As for the position of 'they've been moaning for 40 years and nothing bad has happened yet'.... I hate to say it but that is a bit like a crewman on the Titanic voicing concerns all day that going full speed through an iceberg field is dangerous only to be told 'well we haven't hit one yet' less than an hour or so before the fateful collision*. You say you have no firm position on this, well, taking the time to study what the scientists are saying about why this is now such a pressing problem after years of inaction is not too taxing a task, I do not think.

This has now strayed from motorsport, my apologies. I would suggest quoting me on this in the Paddock Club thread or PM me if anyone wants to respond in depth. 

As for what this does all mean for motorsport, I have always recognised and liked motorsports ability to develop technology by pushing it to extremes and on short time scales. And motorsport is and always will be an industry linked sport at the top level, therefore it is likely to be heading the way of increasing electrification the top levels of racing and probably also slowly creeping into the junior ladders as well. I doubt mainly or fully combustion racing will go away for good as long as there is profit to be made from holding such races. The only caveat to that is it is less likely to be well funded by manufacturers, sponsors and governments, meaning we are unlikely to see it at the heights it has been in the past. 

*please forgive any historical/technical inaccuracy on the Titanic front. 

This topic keeps straying off motor sport issues....

Trying to limit the conversation I would have thought that motor sport was particularly vulnerable to this type of protest because of difficulties policing the length of a circuit. If a dozen or so protesters were willing to pay the entrance fee they would easily be able to storm most circuits and gain a lot of publicity by sitting on the track, like a sort of modern day Emily Davison. Of course like Davison they would be taking their life in their hands but if they really had the conviction they could easily bring an event to a standstill.

That's really not a marshals' responsibility, nor are they insured to. Silverstone employ crowd control through G4S - usually a teenager on minimum wage in a high vis vest - I'm not sure they'd be prepared or even able to get their hands too dirty. 

Now I could be wrong, but I recall Bernie at one point saying F1 was offsetting enough carbon for the cars, the jets and the fans getting to and from the venue for a little while now? 

I thought carbon credits/offseting were widely acknowledged as a load of cobblers?

I thought carbon credits/offseting were widely acknowledged as a load of cobblers?

Carbon credits are because they are not regulated by anyone, with no meaningful value. Offsetting by planting a load of trees which creates an incremental negative carbon load, is not.

There is also, the EU Emission Trading Scheme (EU ETS) and UK Carbon Price Support (CPS) but these are levies on electricity generation only.

The greatest environmental impact of sport is in the travel to spectate or participate so if these ecoterrorists want to make the changes they demand, logically they should focus on something like football or fishing first...

I really don't see how motorsport is at threat. It's a job, a hobby and a form of entertainment to a billion people around the world, it's also a technological accelerator which will actually assist these activists in the long run. Besides that it is largely funded by some of the biggest global corporations in the world and they're pretty powerful politically... I can imagine one or two events being disrupted in future but these short sighted and over excited tree huggers do not have the power to make motorsport "extinct", no chance. 

The greatest environmental impact of sport is in the travel to spectate or participate so if these ecoterrorists want to make the changes they demand, logically they should focus on something like football or fishing first...

 

I really don't see how motorsport is at threat. It's a job, a hobby and a form of entertainment to a billion people around the world, it's also a technological accelerator which will actually assist these activists in the long run. Besides that it is largely funded by some of the biggest global corporations in the world and they're pretty powerful politically... I can imagine one or two events being disrupted in future but these short sighted and over excited tree huggers do not have the power to make motorsport "extinct", no chance. 

Inclined to agree as long as motorsport is allowed to do it's job as a tech accelorator and not be held back by nostagia or tradition. That does mean more efficiency fuel saving/long life tyres/electrification/alternative fuels in motorsport as a whole. As long as it can be pushing for that that it can remian part of the solution. 

I also can't help but feel that 'tree hugger' is somethign of an outdated term and isn't the best way to describe modern environmentalists, where it is much more about aproaching this with technology and economics more so than it is about composting toilets, living in forests and growing your own veg.

Clicky linky ...

Easier said than done!   

Whenever I click on "The paddock club" it doesn't give me any link to an application to join...it merely says I should contact the admin. I've tried three times and not received any kind of response so I'm assuming I'm unwelcome there. 

Shocking type of riff-raff there anyway. For a start, I'm a member.

The 30 posts stipulation is just the start. The other one is 'warm and breathing'. I just scraped through on that one.

That's really not a marshals' responsibility, nor are they insured to. Silverstone employ crowd control through G4S - usually a teenager on minimum wage in a high vis vest - I'm not sure they'd be prepared or even able to get their hands too dirty.

They could try do this in Bahrain, Russia or Azerbaijan and see what happens to them.
Sorry, I'm not compassionate to far left ecoterrorists.    

So you would rather your kids and grandkids grow up in a world that is irreparably damaged? That's why they are going to such extremes because noone is listening to the thousands and thousands of experts who are saying that if we do not MASSIVELY change our fossil fuel usage within a decade we are beyond screwed...for some people causing such massive inconvenience to others is absolutely justified because that inconvenience is so minor compared to where we will be in 50 years if we don't fix it now. And that does mean we replace boilers, it does mean we find alternatives to single occupied cars, it does mean massive changes in our lifestyles or else there won't be a 'lifestyle' left to have.

However, sadly, whilst I fully support the protesters and their aims and their need raise awareness (and accept their methods as there being little other choice), there will always be some 'rent-a-mob' types in the group who undermine the exact message that is being argued for. As someone else posted, if you are going to cause such extreme problems for others for a cause then you'd best be squeaky clean yourself, so if they aren't clearing up their rubbish and recycling everything to within an inch of it's life, and if they aren't taking their tents with them, and if they didn't all use public transport where possible or at the least car share, then unfortunately they are giving power to those who want to shut them down and it's incredibly naive for them to not understand that. You have to walk the walk too.

I also want to say how much I appreciate Ben1445s post on this subject! Well written and balanced view point that I share even if I lack the words sometimes to express it!

Also, to keep on topic (noted mods...) as long as F1 and other sports continue to innovate and continue to improve their 'green credentials' then they will be a difficult target for any protesters. While I strongly agree we need to make huge changes to our lifestyle, to give up on things that bring joy is giving up on life. Motorsport brings joy to many and there is no reason why with the progress that have already made within F1 and FE etc, that it cannot continue whilst supporting the planet instead of destroying it. One area for improvement would be to subsidise those who use public transport to get to the event. Perhaps F1 circuits could cover half the cost of using public transport and put on free buses from the nearest transport hub for spectators. If this would be too costly or difficult you could introduce public transport only access points so those who got the buses could beat the queues or be allowed into a special stand where those who arrive by car or helicopter can't? Just a braindump!

Edited by sgtkate, 23 April 2019 - 09:51.

I've just remembered some of my email exchanges with the Wandsworth Green Party about Formula E in Battersea Park. They were very against it indeed and could not see any bigger picture to the prospect of it boosting electric vehicle uptake in any way. But then maybe they had a different perspective being a local group... 

I've just remembered some of my email exchanges with the Wandsworth Green Party about Formula E in Battersea Park. They were very against it indeed and could not see any bigger picture to the prospect of it boosting electric vehicle uptake in any way. But then maybe they had a different perspective being a local group... 

Funnily enough the Green party near where I live actually try to support events that demonstrate a future with green power doen't look as bleak as many make out! They'd probably be up for an electric racing event but I can't see that happening around the streets of Sheffield sadly!

I've tried. Three times. And as a rule, I don't beg. 

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Humans of the Autosport forums....I've tried everything you have mentioned. The Paddock Club clearly doesn't work for me. It took me no fewer than four attempts to register accounts in order to post here and I was never able to contact anyone about that either. 

I accept the mod's decision to move non-racing stuff to another forum...it's just a shame that's a forum that is closed to some. 

Shocking type of riff-raff there anyway. For a start, I'm a member.

 

The 30 posts stipulation is just the start. The other one is 'warm and breathing'. I just scraped through on that one.

Don't tell him about the induction ceremony, it was horrendous for me, I hated every moment.

Don't tell him about the induction ceremony, it was horrendous for me, I hated every moment.

I can no-longer smell vanilla essence without weeping uncontrollably. 

It wasn't worth it, absinthedude.

I can no-longer smell vanilla essence without weeping uncontrollably. 

It wasn't worth it, absinthedude.

What? I didn't get vanilla I had liquorice.

Trying to keep this conversation on track.

Absinthedude. Check your inbox. If you haven't got a message from me you may have a technical problem. If you're on a full desktop theme, it appears as a small icon on the top right of the screen. Or click on your username and it will be the 6th option in the drop down menu. If you're on the mobile theme, it's in the menu at the top right.

More road relevant ways to govern F1 and the like:
Drive battery not included in minimum weight. Spec cells from A123 of similar unless we really want a battery war (somewhat road relevant).
Allow any size MGU-K and MGU-H, any capacity and deployment. But also not included in the minimum weight of the car.
This would allow teams to make larger more powerful batteries and motors. Get more deployment and save more fuel. Of course free choice of deployment rate and moment. Let the driver use presents and moderate as he goes around.

Perhaps harvesting while driving the wheels with the ICE should be prohibited, that's just burning extra fuel at the cost of speed to accelerate harder later. Get your energy from exhaust heat (super road relevant, who care about heat release in all the global warming craze?) and braking. Really it would help to have a front motor be allowed. Super road  relevant. Prohibit too smart a diff on there. Maybe even make it a harvest-only unit so the cars remain RWD but get more "free" energy into the drive battery.
My proposal would make cars a good bit quicker. 

One limitation to consider, perhaps deploy only 100% of the battery capacity over any lap. There will always be some level of harvesting. The rule might take away the need for elaborate "cool down" laps. After a first hot lap the battery is simply not empty, another one can be started and you might get good deployment to the line. At least good enough for a banker should be have made an error or were held up.

BEVs have come a long way in recent years. The Jaguars don't look too bad. I'd love so see what a similarly prepped Tesla Model 3 might lap like in comparison. I don't like that they run on road (relevant) tires, makes these cars needlessly slow and thus needlessly unattractive to watch. The Jags need larger circuits, overtaking is hell. Even for a pro driver on a journeyman.
Tesla is making a bigger Model 3 style rear motor for their flag ship cars. Should be ~350 kW peak in itself. Stick that in a Model 3, see what happens. I'd not be surprised if they'll do that for road cars to add a fully loaded level.
Rimac C_Two is stunning. Its chassis is also the Pininfarina Battista. Rumored to be the next Porsche Hypercar as well. 1900 hp, will that do for you?
Porsche Taycan is more modest but looks to be all about consistent performance. Think of a new Panamera with a souped up Jaguar drivetrain. 
I'd love to see race teams get busy with these cars. Not sure how to race them against each other without horrible rules or crazy costs.

Induction ordeal? I may just enjoy that! Thank you to the two members who PM'd me. My PMs seem to be working so that's something. 

With regard to motorsport and the environment....has anyone ever done a study into the environmental impact of the top motorsport series...eg F1, Indycar, NASCAR, WRC...and the quantities of harmful emissions compared to worldwide industry and military use?

With regard to motorsport and the environment....has anyone ever done a study into the environmental impact of the top motorsport series...eg F1, Indycar, NASCAR, WRC...and the quantities of harmful emissions compared to worldwide industry and military use?

Why would that be useful though? You might as well work out what the harmful emissions of trampoline manufacture is compared to that of all worldwide industry and military... 

Where would you even stop? There are businesses that exist solely or partially to supply motorsports, do you count the emissions of their employees driving their kids to school?

The purpose of such a study would be to figure out if motorsport is a significant polluter in the grand scheme of things, and thereby figure out if motorsport becoming greener or even electric would have much of an effect on our environment.

I can confirm as a school science technician that climate change has been on the national curriculum in the UK since at least 1999 when I began working in schools. 

Back in the 80s I learned about "the greenhouse effect" which was mostly limited to CO2 emissions and worries concerning the ozone layer. But this was before the national curriculum existed so coverage of the topic might have been patchy nationwide. I remember a rep from Johnson Matthey chemicals coming to give us a talk on catalytic converters, then not compulsory, and I asked him about the relative dangers of the nasties they take out of car emissions compared to the "harmless" CO2 they belch out instead.....he declined to answer! 

The purpose of such a study would be to figure out if motorsport is a significant polluter in the grand scheme of things, and thereby figure out if motorsport becoming greener or even electric would have much of an effect on our environment.

Hmm.

Thought experiment: If every industry/company/person did such a study and concluded that their isolated environmental impact was insignificant 'in the grand scheme of things', who exactly is left to make any significant progress on curbing emissions?

Now, what would happen every industry/company/person decided, regardless of the size of their contribution, that they were to cut their emission by at least, say, half?