1965 Le Mans-winning drivers - Huh?

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
Just discover this thread...

Was it possible in the 1965 Le Mans regulations to have 3 drivers per car ?
If not, there perhaps is the reason why Ed Hugus was not credited for the win — could be a disqualification matter.

Jimmy, yes 3 drivers were permitted but had to be entered beforehand and we think that only Rindt and Gregory were listed as official drivers. I believe that an entry could have been disqualified for using an un-authorised driver. Read Karl L's post for his explanation. But Joe Fan has the facts and we are all waiting for THE BOOK

Lyn M

Is there an example of 3 drivers having actually (and officially) raced the same car at Le Mans before, say, the '1980s ?

Jimmy, I was going to refer you to this link <http://user.tninet.s...q291w/index.htm> .which Stefan Ornerdal referred me to in a previous posting. When I looked at it back then only Rindt and Gregory were listed for the winning car but now Ed Hugus is listed as third driver with this note attached "*Hugus driving was never registered officially". So that has been added to this database since last year. Very interesting! Stefan, are you sure?!

Lyn M

I just had a quick look at that site and notice Captain John F Duff is listed as "AUS/CDN/GB?".

I thought this had been sorted out on TNF and he was found to be Canadian. Pretty sure the "AUS" was always a mistake; don't know where it came from. But I don't think there was any Australian connection found at all, was there?

Does anyone remember where this was discussed?

Just noticed also that the 2002 Le Mans results have Johnny Herbert in the second placed Audi. Wasn't it pointed out on a TNF thread that Herbert did not drive in that car?

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
Lyn, Try this page: http://user.tninet.s...q291w/index.htm
It's a compilation from many sources and surely there are errors in it but I think it's the best we can get at the moment.
Never heard of Ed Hugus driving the winning car, and believe me, I have read reports from many, many magazines and books.

Barry, this was Stefan's post # 20. Note the bold sentence. And I wonder if he amended his list as a result of the TNF discussion? Sorry if this is getting tedious!

Lyn M

I remember when I was a teenager there was a EP record about the 1965 Le Mans, including a lot of interviews by Jabby Crombac (no mention of Hugus).
The final sentence was something like "Thank you Masten, full throttle, that's the way of winning the 24 Heures du Mans !"

Barry, do you remember what was the thread on John Duff ?

There was discussion about John Duff on this Women Drivers thread.

http://www.atlasf1.c...Duff#post250929

Does anybody know how to contact Gérard "Jabby" Crombac, who was a great friend of both Luigi Chinetti and Masten Gregory, and always used to be everywhere in the races he attends, even if not requested to be there...

Mr. Gerard Crombac
43, rue de la Mothe
F 91590 D’Huison-Longueville
France

It was announced on the commentary at today's Grand Prix that there were three drivers.

Oh well - must be right then....

I do know that Hugus practiced the car as he was on the NART crew. To date, I have yet to find anyone who can support Ed's claim that he took a stint in the car and have information from someone who was there that says that this was not true, which will be in my book. Masten's family have never heard of this story until I told them about it. My gut feeling is that if this did happen, it was against the rules and that it is a secret that no one was/is willing to talk about it, other than Hugus. But I do strongly feel that if Masten's brother Riddelle knew that this happened, he would tell me about. He feels that this would have been something Masten would have told him as they were quite close.

I wasn't there so I leave it up to the reader to decide whether it really did happen. My feelings are that this happened so long ago that if it this was kept hush-hush, someone should be willing to speak today since it happened 37 years ago. It would have been a mistake by the ACO officials to allow Hugus to take a stint in the car that he wasn't registered to drive because Le Mans was two drivers only at that time. With this in mind, I don't think that it tarnishes the NART win at all so I don't see why someone would continue to cover this up if it did happen.

As I stated above, hHistory is HIS STORY but if it cannot be verified by someone who was there, then it is not history--its just a story. The record books should reflect the same unless it can be verified.

Joe (and all)

I TOTALLY agree..but that presents another problem. Should unvarified and unsubstantiated "rumors" even be motioned?

I know of hundeds of "potential truths" when it comes to the "history" of cars; ESPECIALLY with "etceterini". These stories will probibly NEVER be able to be "varified" one way or the other...the people involved are long gone...

I would like EVERYONES opinion if we should, as "professional" historians, even mention these things...

Thanks,
Stu

Stu: of course they should be mentioned! As long as they are clearly identified as rumour or speculation, however unlikely or unpalatable they might be - one man's rumour might be the last piece in someone else's jigsaw puzzle. "Real history" is littered with exploded theories, discredited "facts" and reinterpretations - as an example, I read recently that two researchers have independently come to the conclusion that the Black Death was not due to the plague, but some other epidemiological cause, to which people initially had no natural resistance. That was the reason it swept through Europe so rapidly, but within a century or so it had completely disappeared - perhaps the virus (or whatever it was) died out or mutated into something else. We'll never know. The plague theory was put forward at the end of the nineteenth century, before medical history was a real discipline, and no-one had ever really queried it since: yet when the sources were re-examined there were no classic plague signals before the Black Death - no rats dying in the streets for example. That the Black Death was the plague has become "received wisdom".

Returning to our theme: putting these things "on the table," as Hans puts it, may help others or others may help you. Take a look, for example, at the 1935 European Championship thread, especially round about October-November 2001 - I came up with some press reports which even the professionals seemed to have overlooked. We still haven't solved the conundrum, but we have more ammunition!

Vitesse (and all) :

I would TEND to agree, but when it comes to my primary are of interest, there is so much confusion out there that I do NOT want to add to it. :

Let me give an example of what I mean by confusion......

What should you "really" call a Fiat Topolino based car, assembled by Stanguellini, with coachwork by Ala d'Oro of Bologna, a Gilco tubular chassis with Fiat Topolino axles and suspension units, a Topolino motor with a Siata cylinder head (as Stanguellini had not made their own heads as yet), a 3 main bearing Giannini motor bottom end (Giannini made both bolt-in 3rd main bearing units and cast 3 main bearing bottom ends by taking a sand mold off the Topo block modifying it) and a Stanguellini intake manifold, with a Topo gearbox modified by the Casa 'dell Auto owned by Georgio Giusti who also built the Testa'doro cylinder heads designed by Roselli who was involved in the construction of the Alfa Bimotore and was an Alfa aviation engineer, later building 3-4 cars under his own name, but in colaboration with Tinarelli, who was in colaboration with the coachbuilder Colli...

Here are two aspirin...you will need them after you read through this...

Stu

First, I'm 100% with Vitesse2 on this question
Something that seems outrageous may be true - and until we discuss it we'll never know.

As far as your question of identifying those funny Italian cars is concerned, I suspect this is a peculaiarly Italian problem. In other countries we can go by the name under which the car was entered, and as it appears in the programme, whether it's Riley Special, BMW Eigenbau, DB or whatever. From what I've read of Italian reports of the 30s/40s/50s period, they all seem to be listed simply as Fiats. Unless you have some means of determining whether they were licensed as something else, or what name-badges they had on the nose, I would think you have no alternative but to call them Fiat Specials - the second word to distinguish them from cars built by the Fiat factory

Yesterday I was pleased to partake of a delicious birthday cake submitted in honor of some guy named "Ed." on his eightieth. Happily, he was present, hale, and hearty, if exceedingly modest. Here he stands with an old-time friend and fellow competitor, Bob Edmison:


The story as told in his presence and not corrected by him, included these essentials:
· Rindt was asleep in his (Ed's) trailer, and was not able to take Masten's seat
· Early relief of Masten was precipitated by Masten's glasses fogging
· Ed could not easily reach the podium through the crowd, in spite of the best efforts of gendarmes; by the time he arrived, the ceremony was over and the photography done.

He was presented a mounted model of a 427 Cobra, certificate signed by Carroll Shelby (who regretted he was not in attendance; something about Reno and a special Tiger with power steering). The cert mentioned Ed was Shelby's first dealer and distributor for Cobras, and that he drove a Cobra for Shelby at Le Mans, among other efforts for which Shelby was grateful.

Five feet away, another Legend enjoying himself:



Think Midget and The Glen

To quote Captain Edmund Blackadder -

"It rhymed with 'clucking bell'"



I hate the word "gobsmacked", but I can't think of a better description of my reaction ....

The Ed Hugus mystery came up in Willem Oosthoek's From Birdcage to Supercage [pgs 308 - 310]:

Not that the Ferrari works team fared much better. Although the 330P2 cars of Surtees/Scarfiotti and Guichet/Parkes alternated the lead between the third and 10th hour of racing, cracked brake discs started to slow the cars down. After ten hours it was the privately entered 275LM of Pierre Dumay/Gustave Gosselin taking over first place, which it maintained until four hours from the finish. Then a blowout at high speed caused a delay of five laps to sort out the damaged suspension, enabling another 275LM to surge ahead.
The new leader was the NART entry of Rindt/Gregory, delayed by starter motor problems earlier in the race. After the delay, the car was driven hard by both drivers, who just wanted it to break down, allowing them to go home early. Coming from a lowly 18th place, Rindt and Gregory drove it at maximum revs. Their best lap during the race was almost five seconds faster than the Dumay 275LM and ten seconds or more than the other three 275LM Ferraris entered.
In the end Gregory obtained the result that he probably would not have achieved with his original ride, the Tipo 154 Maserati Coupe. The veteran, having ten Le Mans starts to his name by 1965, took the checkered flag at 4:00 pm. on Sunday. The unexpected win was undoubtedly a highlight of his racing career.
However, there was a footnote to what would be Ferrari's final victory at Le Mans, Although none of the official race results, magazine reports or newspaper articles of the race mentioned it at the time, there was probably a third driver at the wheel of the winning NART 275LM. Reserve driver Ed Hugus, a veteran of nine
previous Le Mans races, mentioned in a conversation in 1998 how Gregory had asked him to take over his stint in the deep of the night. It was dark and very foggy, and the bespectacled Gregory was concerned that he might jeopardize the team's effort with his poor eyesight, With the race official, who would normally report this
kind of a driver change, nodding off after having warmed himself up with some Cognac, the switch went unnoticed, according to Hugus. Later, at first light, Gregory went back behind the wheel.
After Gregory had passed the checkered flag, initially team manager John Baus, Rindt and some mechanics jumped on top of the winning car and waved at the crowd. However, a later photograph of the 275LM shows journalist Bernard Cahier, Coco Chinetti and Hugus on the car as well, joining in the celebration. When the race winners received their laurels at the podium, Hugus was not there because, as he said, he could not get through the crowds. If the story is true - and Hugus was never the bragging type - it seems incredible that he never received any recognition for his victory contribution by the organizers, the media, Chinetti Père et Fils, Baus or his co-drivers.
But there may have been something else involved. These were the days before three or even four drivers would share a car in a long-distance race. At Le Mans reserve drivers were only used under extreme circumstances, such as when the original driver fell ill or became exhausted. The regulations at the time clearly stated
that once a reserve driver took over from an original driver, the latter was no longer allowed to drive the car. Because Gregory did drive it later on in the race, the 275LM would have been disqualified if found out. It would not be surprising if the notoriously disorganized NART team found out about this regulation too late. Realizing their infraction after Gregory had taken the wheel once again, the team may have decided to keep the stint by Hugus a well-guarded secret.

Note: Oosthoek includes Hugus with Rindt and Gregory in his results for the 1965 Le Mans but not the starting field - very precise.

But not everyone is sold on this...from the review of From Birdcage to Supercage on VeloceToday.com:

As with any book of motoring history, there are errors (Ed Hugus is listed as a winner of the 1965 Le Mans, but this is a perhaps speculative rather than an error) and mysteries yet to be solved. Such things, be they minor, are to be expected.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Originally posted by FLB
It's in Janos Wimpffen's Time and Two Seats.

I wonder what Janos Wimpffen based his conclusion on?

Seppi,
The claim that Hugus could not get thru the crowd is bogus. Yes, there are pics of Hugus riding on the fender of the 250 LM on the way to the "victory circle" or whatever the French called it. There are also pictures of Hugus (easy to identify because of his American-style golf hat) standing directly in front of the raised area where the winners are being feted. It would have been easy for Masten or Jochen to lift him up to their level. The rule theory has some resonance. No car in the race that year has more than two drivers listed. As I remarked before, I don't believe Ed would lie but it's possible to misremember after all the years involved. I have spoken to many people involved with Ferrari and NART at that year's race and have never been able to find someone to confirm this story. As someone who has known Ed for some time, I want to believe it. As an historian, I can't confirm that it happened with only one source.

Hi folks,

Googling turned up the following pages:
This one which states that Hugus did drive the car (I accept that a claim on a webpage is not "proof") and
This one which promises the answer to the question, but I think you have to subscribe to the online magazine, which I did not do, to find out. The same online magazine had previously published a request for "anyone who can verify that Ed Hugus relieved Masten Gregory for a stint behind the wheel at the 1965 Le Mans 24 Hour race".

Regards,
David.