Top 10 F1 Drives [Split Topic]

It was one of his last wins, so that also helps getting it 'Legendary' status over the years.

Think that's deceptive to be honest. The 1997 Ferrari was the better car and closer to the Williams - but the field was also more competitive all round with McLaren and Benetton, even Jordan, and the tyre war which meant on some weekends the Bridgestone cars jumped right up the grid too.

Not sure what the issue is here. Oho raised the point that the 1996 Ferrari "was pretty fast in relation to competition", citing the average qualifying positions. He is right.

If you're constantly the second best car then it's a lot easier to pick up a couple of wins than when you have to squabble with two or three other teams, even if you are then closer to the leading team.

I think there's a lot of Lewis races being overlooked here

In a top 10, "a lot"? That seems a tall order for any driver!

BBC nominated these ten as Hamilton's best wins: https://www.topgear....reatest-f1-wins

That list contains a lot of 'first win', 'last win for team', 'championship winning race', etc. Nice moments, for sure, but not necessarily amazing drives.

Which ones would you nominate?

1996 Ferrari got 4 poles in the hands of Schumacher, so it can't have been too rubbish, even though Schumacher outdrove the Williams drivers to get these poles.

The biggest problem of 1996 Ferrari was unreliability. With proper reliability Schumacher could have even given the Williams drivers a run for the world championship. The biggest improvement for 1997 Ferrari came from reliability, not so much from speed.

Well, Senna himself said that Donington 1993 was nowhere near as impressive a performance as Estoril 1985. 
 
 
I genuinely think even Senna wouldn't understand why his Donington drive is so overhyped by posterity.

Posted by Jovanotti on Yesterday, 18:15 in Racing Comments
Looking at the list, everyone of the greats seems to have one drive on the list (Button being a bit out of place there). Hence if you look at who's missing, I guess one will certainly be Clark (Spa '63?), the last is anyone's guess though.

Edited by Jovanotti, 10 April 2019 - 09:25.

No. 1 will be Stewart winning at the Ring by four minutes in the wet with one hand.

No Prost and Vettel? Bias!

When watching Schumacher, there often seemed to be races that he won which he shouldn't / couldn't have won. 

After the Schumacher era, I think I only had that feeling with Alonso a few times in 2012. I'm a big Hamilton fan, but which races did he win when his car clearly wasn't the best? Maybe 2012 Austin? 

Best isn't entirely fair, as there were various wins of Hamilton in that 2007-2012 period when at least one other team was perfectly competitive and was outplayed by Hamilton and McLaren.

Not that he won dozens and dozens of races then, but plenty of good wins all the same.

But it's true that even the 2009 McLaren, while starting the season as a bit of a ****box, was competitive in the races Hamilton won. As fun as it is to emphasise Vettel winning for Toro Rosso, that car was also a great one to have that weekend in Monza in 2008.

With Alonso you always have to take into account his talent for talking up his own contribution, but I agree that he pulled some bigger stunts than probably anyone in the last decade. It's such a shame he... I mean, the Renault team, resorted to cheating in Singapore 2008 because it overshadowed an otherwise stellar performance in Japan a race later - where he also won.

Edited by Nonesuch, 10 April 2019 - 09:55.

10. Spain 1996 Schumacher
9. Canada 2011 Button
8. Silverstone 2008 Hamilton
7. Monza 1976 Lauda
6. Spain 1981 G Villeneuve
5. Nurburgring 1957 Fangio
4. Brazil 1991 Senna
3. Nurburgring 1961 Stirling Moss

I'm glad David Tremayne is doing this and not some ahem, reporter who thinks F1 only exists for about 20 years. To put it mildly.

Some great selections, although Button 2011 shouldn't be there (imo)

Edited by statman, 10 April 2019 - 10:05.

By the way, the Fangio drive at the Ring is slightly overhyped.  In that he was running a two-part race on a circuit that had been repaved so, although he repeatedly broke the lap record, so did nearly everyone else.  To give an example, Dick Gibson, the slowest qualifier in 1957, driving a Formula 2 car to boot, set a qualifying time faster than very respectable drivers Manzon and Godia in F1 machinery the previous year.  And Fangio's pole time for 1956 would have got him tenth in 1957.

Plus Fangio's charge after Hawthorn and Collins was eased by them both assuming JMF was out, chillaxing a bit, playing After You Claude, and losing all their momentum.

Problem with El Chueco was he was so damn good and smooth that he hardly ever had to tiger, and when he did (Monaco 1956) it didn't always work.  In a sense his drive for the ages was Argentina 1955; when everyone else was fainting and having a rest, he was sailing on serenely to a dominant victory.

But Germany 1957 was something of the Lion in Winter.

 In a sense his drive for the ages was Argentina 1955; when everyone else was fainting and having a rest, he was sailing on serenely to a dominant victory.

 

Fun fact about Argentina 1955 is that Fangio and Mieres were the only drivers, who drove a full race and received full points for their efforts, while others shared the cars. 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed car all had 3 different drivers in them during the race!

Edited by Massa, 10 April 2019 - 10:57.

 

Best isn't entirely fair, as there were various wins of Hamilton in that 2007-2012 period when at least one other team was perfectly competitive and was outplayed by Hamilton and McLaren.

 

Not that he won dozens and dozens of races then, but plenty of good wins all the same.

 

But it's true that even the 2009 McLaren, while starting the season as a bit of a ****box, was competitive in the races Hamilton won. As fun as it is to emphasise Vettel winning for Toro Rosso, that car was also a great one to have that weekend in Monza in 2008.

 

With Alonso you always have to take into account his talent for talking up his own contribution, but I agree that he pulled some bigger stunts than probably anyone in the last decade. It's such a shame he... I mean, the Renault team, resorted to cheating in Singapore 2008 because it overshadowed an otherwise stellar performance in Japan a race later - where he also won.

 

 

I don't have a great memory of specific races in 09, but remember Hamilton did really really well with a McLaren that started the season very rubbish. To me that ticks the "can drive great in a pile of crap" checkbox in his career achievements. Remember Kovalainen was miles away.

Great point on Alonso, he had no business winning anything in 08 but Japan he did it on merit. Great drive actually, maybe not top 10 all time in F1 but one of Alonso's top in his great career surely.

Fisichella simply couldn't handle pressure and expectation. Nor was he strong enough in a duel on track, suspect racecraft and he made too many unforced errors.

He's a classic case that shows how ridiculous modern F1 fans are who even consider any World Champion 'lucky' due to having a winning package. It's the most asinine claim a fan can make.

That's when you see who is the real deal. And who isn't strong enough when they step up to the big league - a car capable of winning races and titles.

Tbh I never thought Fisichella was good enough for that 05 Renault seat. He was always suspect between the ears, never struck me with champion like qualities.

I don't have a great memory of specific races in 09, but remember Hamilton did really really well with a McLaren that started the season very rubbish.

 

To me that ticks the "can drive great in a pile of crap" checkbox in his career achievements. Remember Kovalainen was miles away.

It started that way for sure, but it was good enough for Hamilton to take the most points of all drivers in the second half of the season.

Kovalainen was never much of a challenge, but when Hamilton won in Hungary and Singapore, he qualified 4th and 1st, whereas Kovalainen qualified 6th and 10th. In the case of Singapore, Q3 qualifying was aborted after Barrichello crashed, robbing many people of their final hotlap, I can't find it now but Kovalainen's time was so slow that I'm working on the assumption he was caught out, too. That's not too bad considering the normal difference between the two. Miles away may be overselling it a bit.

Edited by Nonesuch, 10 April 2019 - 12:05.

Ferrari gained speed as 1997 wore on. Problem was (for Williams too who stagnated) that McLaren did also...

What ever gains McLaren made during 1997 were largely inconsequential at least as far as 1997 was concerned. Coulthard had a bit better reliability but Häkkinen retired with mechanical failures from something like  2/3 of races over the season, had faulty tire at one and was disqualified for fuel regularity in one.

Edited by Oho, 10 April 2019 - 13:13.

Edited by monolulu, 10 April 2019 - 13:40.

Canada 2011 has always bugged me, Jenson no doubt won a great victory but imo the facts got lost under the hyperbole of the day. I've always felt his win in Australia 2010 was superior and more of his own making. 

• Crashed into both Alonso and Lewis
• Specifically went for a full wet setup on the Saturday hoping for rain on the Sunday
• Red Flag and Safety Cars galore
• Vettel cracked under pressure and handed JB the lead 

This was all set against the backdrop of the Whitmarsh and BBC love-in pitting JB against Lewis. It often felt at the time, the pundits (especially the BBC) were more obsessed with trying to stir the pot than the actual performance(s). They massively talked up JB at every opportunity, ignored context, and spun every negative thing remotely possible about Lewis (and to be fair Lewis gave them enough material himself in 2011). I remember the BBC post race forum clearly showed JB looking and seeing Lewis alongside of him before pushing him into the wall. Coming on the radio and playing the victim ("what is he doing") I felt was low. 

Anyway, it's history now I guess. 

Monza 2018?

The standards for the definition of "clearly not the best" have somewhat slipped it seems. 

[quote name="Requiem84" post="8708775" timestamp="1554889115"]

Monza 2018?

The Ferrari was fast in race trim, but not in the hands of Raikkonen. 

It was a very nice battle for the lead, but you had the feeling all along that Hamilton had a few tenths over Kimi any lap.

BBC nominated these ten as Hamilton's best wins: https://www.topgear....reatest-f1-wins

That list contains a lot of 'first win', 'last win for team', 'championship winning race', etc. Nice moments, for sure, but not necessarily amazing drives.

Which ones would you nominate?

Edited by Marklar, 10 April 2019 - 14:01.

Great point on Alonso, he had no business winning anything in 08 but Japan he did it on merit. Great drive actually, maybe not top 10 all time in F1 but one of Alonso's top in his great career surely.

I largely agree but it's not always that clear cut. Some great drivers have won loads yet also show a pattern of struggling with pressure.
 
Schumacher was one of the very greatest, just a sublime driver that won so much and made so many other great drivers look like slow amateurs, yet sometimes melted under pressure in championship deciders. 1994 - smash the wall unprovoked. 1997 - oh crap I'm getting passed, better provoke a voluntary shunt on the most obvious way possible. 2003 - barely limp to the finish way off pace.
 
Also Vettel, the guy won 4 straight titles, utterly dominant, clearly he's super quick it's not just the cars (proven by Monza 08, loads of youngest ever records in F1, astonishing feats in junior career in FBMW and WSR, smashing Webber in certain seasons including in qualifying in which Webber was a specialist, clearly outpacing Kimi, making Bourdais' F1 career very short after coming in with a big reputation)... absolutely proven he can do it at the very highest level... yet how many stupid unprovoked mistakes he's made the last couple of years?
 
I think we sometimes search for simplified narratives when the reality's more complex. If Vettel retires after 2013 we'd forever see him as a legend that dealt with pressure just fine. If Red Bull never happened and all we saw was 2017 onwards, we'd think this guy is... maybe not the German Fisichella but the German Carlos Reutemann, seriously quick but can't handle it when any serious achievement is on the line.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 10 April 2019 - 14:43.

Best drives that i have seen (on tv):

Hungary 89 (Mansell) - From 11th to 1st

Mexico 90 (Prost) - From 13th to 1st

Donington 93 (Senna) - Drive in the wet altough with TC

Barcelona 94 (Schumacher) - stuck on 5th gear for 2/3 of the race

Suzuka 94 (Hill) Defeated - Schumacher in the rain

Spa 95 (Schumacher) - Drive in the wet with slick tyres

Barcelona 96 (Schumacher) - 4 seconds a lap faster and 8/9 cilinders on the car from more or less 1/3 of the race

Monaco 97 (Schumacher) - First 20 laps from Schumacher in the wet (several seconds faster per lap)

Spa 97 (Schumacher) - Fist laps in the wet (7 seconds faster after overtaking Villeneuve and Alesi)

Hungary 98 (Schumacher) - 20 qualy laps from Schumacher

Malasya 99 (Schumacher) - Return after injury and 1 second faster in qualy and gave the lead twice to Irvine

Suzuka 2000 (Schumacher/Hakkinen) - Qualy and race by both drivers with a little rain "helping" Schumacher talent

Imola 2005/2006 (Alonso/Schumacher) - Defensive and smart driving from Alonso and Schumacher in 2005 and 2006

There are more but for now that is what i remember...

Edited by 7WDC, 10 April 2019 - 15:10.

Rain races are generally overhyped. Spain 1996 is nowhere near as impressive if you consider that Schumacher had a spare car for wet weather set up unlike the Williams guys, something people have forgotten over the years.

Spain 94, half the race with only one gear, including a pit stop, and Schumachzf was the second fastest while using only one gear. Unbelievable.
 

I know people get excited about this but if you look at the layout of the track at the time there was only 1 corner that was 3rd gear all the rest were faster (it was still impressive).

And if this deserves a place then Senna 1991 Brazil deserves a place as he was stuck in 6th gear on a track with 2 hairpins and it started to rain for the last 3 laps just for good measure.

Personally Lewis best win was Montreal 2012 imo, since his McLaren wasnt anywhere near as good on that day, and yet he pulled it off.

It's interesting to see the Rate the Race thread for that one. It doesn't seem like there's a vibe of something special having happened.

Lots of complaining about DRS, though. See: https://forums.autos...he-canadian-gp/

I know people get excited about this but if you look at the layout of the track at the time there was only 1 corner that was 3rd gear all the rest were faster (it was still impressive).

 

And if this deserves a place then Senna 1991 Brazil deserves a place as he was stuck in 6th gear on a track with 2 hairpins and it started to rain for the last 3 laps just for good measure.

I think that in 1994 there were 2 tyre barriers on track to slown down  the cars considerable in Barcelona, so it was not that easy. I think other cars were using 2nd or 1st gear there...

Edited by 7WDC, 10 April 2019 - 16:20.

I've heard this before about Schumacher having his car set up for the wet, but why didn't the other teams set their cars up for the wet? It didn't require a spare car. They could have just set their normal cars up for the wet when they saw how hard it was raining all morning!

LOL, you're right, good one. It was raining cats and dogs. Why bother with anything set up for a dry race?

The standards for the definition of "clearly not the best" have somewhat slipped it seems. [/size]

Edited by monolulu, 10 April 2019 - 16:22.

Does Imola 2005 deserve a mention? It was a great race but worse track for racing than Hungaroring. I'm on the fence about how great it was.

Edited by Atreiu, 10 April 2019 - 16:24.

It's interesting to see the Rate the Race thread for that one. It doesn't seem like there's a vibe of something special having happened.

Lots of complaining about DRS, though. See: https://forums.autos...he-canadian-gp/

Does Imola 2005 deserve a mention? It was a great race but worse track for racing than Hungaroring. I'm on the fence about how great it was.

Best drives that i have seen (on tv):

 

Hungary 89 (Mansell) - From 11th to 1st

*12th

Sorry, couldn't resist

Half is moaning, half is pretty enthusiastic. Arent all rate the race threads like this?

On average, sure, but I was expecting the thread to reflect the idea that this could be Lewis Hamilton's best win ever a bit more. There are quite a lot to choose from, after all.

God, this list is terrible.

Personally Lewis best win was Montreal 2012 imo, since his McLaren wasnt anywhere near as good on that day, and yet he pulled it off. And I loved the German GP 2011. And yet both are not in this list of his best drives. Smh

Edited by TomNokoe, 10 April 2019 - 18:07.

Edited by SCUDmissile, 10 April 2019 - 18:16.

Best drives that i have seen (on tv):
 
Hungary 89 (Mansell) - From 11th to 1st
Mexico 90 (Prost) - From 13th to 1st
Donington 93 (Senna) - Drive in the wet altough with TC
Barcelona 94 (Schumacher) - stuck on 5th gear for 2/3 of the race
Suzuka 94 (Hill) Defeated - Schumacher in the rain
Spa 95 (Schumacher) - Drive in the wet with slick tyres
Barcelona 96 (Schumacher) - 4 seconds a lap faster and 8/9 cilinders on the car from more or less 1/3 of the race
Monaco 97 (Schumacher) - First 20 laps from Schumacher in the wet (several seconds faster per lap)
Spa 97 (Schumacher) - Fist laps in the wet (7 seconds faster after overtaking Villeneuve and Alesi)
Hungary 98 (Schumacher) - 20 qualy laps from Schumacher
Malasya 99 (Schumacher) - Return after injury and 1 second faster in qualy and gave the lead twice to Irvine
Suzuka 2000 (Schumacher/Hakkinen) - Qualy and race by both drivers with a little rain "helping" Schumacher talent
Imola 2005/2006 (Alonso/Schumacher) - Defensive and smart driving from Alonso and Schumacher in 2005 and 2006
 
There are more but for now that is what i remember...

My best 10 drives I have seen. Not in order, I'll think that up later.

Raikkonen Belgium 2009

Out of genuine interest, could you explain this one? I'm not convinced Raikkonen even put in the best drive of that race, let alone one of the best 10 overall since 2005 (when you begin your sample). Raikkonen ran out very wide at turn 1, used the advantage from this to overtake the very slow BMW of Kubica on the Kemmel straight, then missed his braking point into Les Combes, returned into Kubica's path and somehow got to keep the place. With that in mind, the drives of Fisichella (Force India's first points - and a podium no less!) and Kubica (holding onto 4th place in a pretty woeful car with an engine that was heavily turned down) that day seemed a lot more impressive to me - or am I missing something?

Out of genuine interest, could you explain this one? I'm not convinced Raikkonen even put in the best drive of that race, let alone one of the best 10 overall since 2005 (when you begin your sample). Raikkonen ran out very wide at turn 1, used the advantage from this to overtake the very slow BMW of Kubica on the Kemmel straight, then missed his braking point into Les Combes, returned into Kubica's path and somehow got to keep the place. With that in mind, the drives of Fisichella (Force India's first points - and a podium no less!) and Kubica (holding onto 4th place in a pretty woeful car with an engine that was heavily turned down) that day seemed a lot more impressive to me - or am I missing something?

Fuji 2007

That one had this shitty SC incident and generally half of it was run behind it, but sure, otherwise it was quite impressive   

On average, sure, but I was expecting the thread to reflect the idea that this could be Lewis Hamilton's best win ever a bit more. There are quite a lot to choose from, after all.

That's the thing though. It wasnt spectacular, so you wont find the reaction you are looking for. But driving wise it was better than most races which are usually list as his best.

That aside, I doubt that in modern times you will find any performance with the reaction you are looking for, simply because there are too many different reactions nowadays.

The most recent contender (in terms of spectacular performances) is probably Verstappen in Brazil 2016, but that one was also meet with many critical responses, such as him spinning, him enjoying a slight tyre advantage and him not even being the quickest driver on track.

True tbh. That entry was maybe a bit of bias coming in, from a personal point of view in terms of what I felt at the time.

Fair enough  Just wanted to ask - I've learnt on this forum that, even ten years after a race has happened, I can still learn things about it that I didn't realise at the time!

Edited by Muppetmad, 10 April 2019 - 19:12.

Out of genuine interest, could you explain this one? I'm not convinced Raikkonen even put in the best drive of that race, let alone one of the best 10 overall since 2005 (when you begin your sample). Raikkonen ran out very wide at turn 1, used the advantage from this to overtake the very slow BMW of Kubica on the Kemmel straight, then missed his braking point into Les Combes, returned into Kubica's path and somehow got to keep the place. With that in mind, the drives of Fisichella (Force India's first points - and a podium no less!) and Kubica (holding onto 4th place in a pretty woeful car with an engine that was heavily turned down) that day seemed a lot more impressive to me - or am I missing something?

Edited by Jovanotti, 10 April 2019 - 19:46.

God, this list is terrible.

Personally Lewis best win was Montreal 2012 imo, since his McLaren wasnt anywhere near as good on that day, and yet he pulled it off. And I loved the German GP 2011. And yet both are not in this list of his best drives. Smh

God, this list is terrible.

Personally Lewis best win was Montreal 2012 imo, since his McLaren wasnt anywhere near as good on that day, and yet he pulled it off. And I loved the German GP 2011. And yet both are not in this list of his best drives. Smh

I think that in 1994 there were 2 tyre barriers on track to slown down  the cars considerable in Barcelona, so it was not that easy. I think other cars were using 2nd or 1st gear there...

Ah yes, the infamous "Beirut" chicane, named because it resembled a checkpoint, placed before the since unused Nissan chicane. The circuit bypasses that section with a longer back straight now.

 

• Specifically went for a full wet setup on the Saturday hoping for rain on the Sunday 

If anything that makes his race more special because he was blisteringly fast and in a complete class of his own when it finally became fully dry