Tip of my tongue...

This is really bugging me, dammit!  Front-drive, those distinctive wheels, that dohc engine... Turner?

Copyright - George Phillips, Revs Digital Library

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 26 August 2019 - 19:53.

Emeryson?

Edited by bradbury west, 27 August 2019 - 13:51.

Exhausts and carburettors on the same side on a twin-cam?

Sounds French.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 27 August 2019 - 14:09.

"In 1954 Jack developed a rather ambitious four-cylinder, water-cooled, twin overhead cam, 500cc unit for Formula 3. This intrigued Cyril Kieft, who was building formula 3 cars in Wolverhampton. On paper, the engine looked a winner and Cyril spoke of building a batch of 25 sports cars using it. The one engine which Turner made was run in a Kieft in a couple of hill climbs and was found wanting. Jim Burgoyne drove the car in the 500cc class at Shelsley Walsh in 1955. The engine gave colossal revs but they were not matched by an equal ration of brake horse power and the experiment was hardly a success: it produced only 35 bhp against the 50 bhp of a decent Norton. Although a brilliant design, this motor proved unsuccessful, in the main due to lack of funds to fully develop it. Jack Turner later adapted the dohc cylinder head to a BMC A-Series engine and ran it in a Morris Minor."

RGDS RLT

Having thought about it, could this be a "stagger valve" arrangement? Someone ought to have tried it in the forty years between Frontenac and BMW... ?

I think it is a pushrod or SOHC V6, not a twin cam head. So there are probably carburettors and an exhaust manifold on the other side too.

Certainly, you couldn't get exhaust across the engine and out under the intake ports?

Even the French wouldn't do that :-)

Pat

Edited by Pat Clarke, 28 August 2019 - 00:06.

The only photographs of the Turner 500cc F3 engine that I have seen show it in the rear of a 500 chassis and running 4 SU carburettors and seemingly a cross flow design. The exhaust in DCN's posted photo seems to have three exhaust pipes, not likely for a 4 pot.
Roger Lund

When I look at it closely, I get the feeling that the middle exhaust pipe is wider than the one ahead. Could this be a single pipe of a 2-in-1 arrangement for the two cylinders in the middle of the block?

I agree with that and am with Pat Clarke that it could be a V engine - but a V-8, not V-6. Can anyone say how many plugleads there are, as I'm confused by the leads and their shadows.

Doug reckons it's front-drive, but I'm not so sure, as there's not much space for a gearbox/final drive ahead of the engine

The only photographs of the Turner 500cc F3 engine that I have seen show it in the rear of a 500 chassis and running 4 SU carburettors and seemingly a cross flow design. The exhaust in DCN's posted photo seems to have three exhaust pipes, not likely for a 4 pot.
Roger Lund

So rare on the millions of Austin/Morris/MG engines over the years...

It has to be a four pot, surely?  There are two twin choke carbs, and there are only four plug leads (the shadows do make it difficult, but if you trace them upstream, it looks like four).  It also looks like the plugs are angled  sort of like this  \ / \ / which is a bit unusual.  

Beyond that, i have no clue.  If it has floored DCN, I have zero chance of identifying it!

The tyres are narrow section. Does anyone recognise the tread pattern?

What could the mechanic be lifting with hands in those positions?

Front right suspension, starting from the outboard top:

* A wishbone element with an outboard pickup for a pull rod, connected to a mystery box. Rubber band suspension?

* Mystery tube, perhaps brake line.

* Possible drive shaft with nipple outboard. If you project the tube into the engine bay, it seems plausible. There is something interesting hidden by the mechanic's right hand. The engine bay side aperture and gaiter don't make sense to me.

* Lower lateral suspension link with inboard pickup located in same area as mystery box.

* Inclined damper unit -- with pre-load spring or gaiter?

If the car has front drive shafts it could be 4WD.

I have to admit I have not got the faintest clue what car this is.....however, one thing strikes me, the exhaust pipes fit perfectly into their body panel, and there is no room for a fourth pipe,  which perhaps led to a 'V' configuration.  

On closer inspection the centre exhaust pipe is certainly bigger than 1st and 3rd.....could 2 and 3 ports be siamezed sp?, thus fitting with twin carbs? 

Richard

The tyres are narrow section. Does anyone recognise the tread pattern?

 

.

Tyre is a normal 1950s/60s Pirelli

I think we can safely exclude a V8, that would be VERY small cylinders and a VERY high driveline!! And the three exhaust ports are a pretty frequent feature for middle of the 20th century budget fours. Like Allan, though, I'm not really sure whether I'm seeing a front drive - difficult to clearly identify all the stuff that goes to that right front wheel, and clearly limited space for a front drive unit!

Henri, you're right about some weird engine experiments in the US, but this doesn't look at all American to me.

I think we can safely exclude a V8, that would be VERY small cylinders and a VERY high driveline!! And the three exhaust ports are a pretty frequent feature for middle of the 20th century budget fours. Like Allan, though, I'm not really sure whether I'm seeing a front drive - difficult to clearly identify all the stuff that goes to that right front wheel, and clearly limited space for a front drive unit!

 

Henri, you're right about some weird engine experiments in the US, but this doesn't look at all American to me.

Maybe a non-American weird engine experiment? I only mentioned the American things as an example but that doesn't imply they were only possible in the USA.

BTW, I am also not certain on this being frontdriven

Found it. It's Henri Otterbein's Simca Surva F3 which was entered at the 1954 Daily Express meeting. He constructed his own twin-cam head.

There's a photo on the 500cc Register site.

BRILLIANT!  No wonder it was puzzling me.  What I had on the tip of my tongue but just could not retrieve was definitely neither Otterbein nor Simca, but I am happy to accept Nicanary's ID above - so thank you for that.  This particular Revs Digilb photo is catalogued as having been taken by George Phillips of 'Autosport' on August 3, 1953, at 'The Daily Telegraph' 500cc Meeting, Brands Hatch, by the way...

But plainly my puzzlement was not altogether unjustified...  

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 28 August 2019 - 21:26.

Same here, Tim. And why 'siamese' the exhaust ports...

Here's the link:

http://500race.org/m...es/simca-surva/

Vince H.

I can’t get my head around this at all. If he was going to go to the trouble of building his own twin ohc head, why in heaven’s name did he (apparently) have inlet and exhaust ports on the same side?

Edited by Roger Clark, 29 August 2019 - 10:12.

Hmmmm - this front suspension layout, with apparent transverse leaf spring up top and clearly un-driven...

....does not match that shown in the 1953 pic at the head of this thread.  Development?  Or a different car - still by Otterbein?

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 29 August 2019 - 08:17.

BRILLIANT!  No wonder it was puzzling me.  What I had on the tip of my tongue but just could not retrieve was definitely neither Otterbein nor Simca, but I am happy to accept Nicanary's ID above - so thank you for that.  This particular Revs Digilb photo is catalogued as having been taken by George Phillips of 'Autosport' on August 3, 1953, at 'The Daily Telegraph' 500cc Meeting, Brands Hatch, by the way...

 

But plainly my puzzlement was not altogether unjustified...  

 

DCN

Thanks. I don't post all that much on here because I simply don't have the knowledge and experience of the regular contributors - quite frankly I'm out of my depth. I do however know where to look. It's the result of my time spent as a member of Autopuzzles, described quite often, although rather unfairly, as a bunch of weirdos. If you want obscure, there's no other site to visit.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 29 August 2019 - 13:36.

Simca Surva? That's interesting. One of the first things going through my (empty) mind when looking at the original picture was Simca-Deho, but I quickly dismissed this after looking up some photos.

I think I have a couple of pictures of the Surva/Otterbein car at home, but the one on the 500 site pictured in 1950 is clearly a very different animal. Perhaps he built a new car during his apparent hiatus between 1951 and '54? I shall have a look at my records.

I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest! Having said that, it's important to get the facts right - future historians and all that. I hope someone can solve this and I agree that it's entirely possible that M.Otterbein had time on his hands to re-design the front end whilst he was going to the seemingly extravagant route of the bespoke t/c head. (Wouldn't it have been simpler to pay a visit to J A Prestwich?)

I have to admit I came across my answer by luck. I thought it might be one of those exquisite little Italian mini-GP cars from the early years of 500cc F3, and was scrolling down the marques on "that certain site" when I stumbled on the Surva. Is there no caption to the Revs Inst. photo?

Bit out of my usual area of expertise but the country is right...I'll have a dig.  Meanwhile here's a rough transcription of the article..first call is what 'Italian hemispherical head' he used and how he turned the Solexes upside down.  Seems to have been well connected in the trade.

"H. Otterbein spoke to us about the 500 he has constructed and with which he has had several races in the last two years,
The chassis is a originally a SIMCA 5, with the U-section was closed with electrically spot-welded plates, to reinforce its strength. We have cut the normal  gear box mountings which, with another welded leg served as engine supports. This latter is mounted to SIMCA 5 engine with 48.5mm bore. The original engine has been fitted with a chromed crankshaft with a central bearing plate fitted to the block by electric welding. The con rods are duralumin with rose-metal bronze shells. [I think they mean white metal, rose metal is solder type with low melting point]  Cylinder head, Italian hemispherical type. Special camshaft with a very large crossover (?) , allowing revving at a very high speed for this small engine. Fuel pump drive on camshaft. Water pump, special intake and exhaust valves with two inverted Solex carburetors, diameter 26mm. Delco special SCINTILLA (Switzerland) distributor  for SIMCA 5, tested on the bench to 9,000 rpm.  The special coil is also Scintilla manufacture. Mr. Otierbein tells us about the enthusiasm of Mr. CHRISTIAN, representative of this Brussels establishment, who, in addition to the above components, provided from the Belgian capital the Champion LA 10 sparkplugs which are fitted to the engine. The oil sump has 4 litres capacity with radiator of 1 litre placed under the water radiator. Last was placed the front spring in the usual place."

Note...that is not a literal translation...befeore 'Les Tatillons' dive in.

ST

Good stuff - but perhaps none yet quite winning the star-prize washing machine...   

And - re Revs captioning - that's what I, my daughter, and some supporters are seeking to provide.  Anyone can join in.  There are only about another 350,000 images to go...

DCN

Yes Ray - thought provoking, isn't it?

DCN

The SIMCA 5 was virtually identical to the FIAT Topolino 500 with the same size engine.  In Italy both Testadoro (so called because the head was cast in bronze and designed by former Ferrari man Arnaldo Roselli, designer of the bi-motore) and SIATA made proprietary twin cam head conversions for the FIAT both of which would have fitted the SIMCA unit used by our friend Otterbein.  These heads were used on FIAT-derived limited edition sports cars that acquitted themselves well in the Mille Miglia.  These heads have been mentioned in TNF threads before, notably by D-Type I think.

I imagine the front suspension was boggo SIMCA transverse leaf without checking.  The temptation is to think the two cars illustrated were two different cars but a decent body man can work wonders on a sow's ear!

Something to be going on with.

btw my misunderstanding of 'croisement' can only mean 'overlap' as far as I can see.

ST

Edit typo

Edited by Sebastian Tombs, 29 August 2019 - 23:47.

Ah, here's the Testadoro 570 head...it's not dohc but the Bristol type.
 

 
ST  

Edit.  Drawing copyright Dino Brunori (please don't sue!)

Edited by Sebastian Tombs, 30 August 2019 - 00:05.

Are there photos of the Testadora head anywhere?

Here's one Ray, nothing like our friend's though.  His must have been a SIATA.

ST

Nope, not a SIATA either.  Going back to Doug's original pic that head must be a genuine dohc.  Another mystery.  Guy seems to be checking timing, can't be turning it over as the plugs are still in.  Time to look in French mags see if we can find details of these 'races' he's supposed to have competed in.

ST

Indeed, Ray! And the valve angle is similar, too, a bit over 90 degree methinks - though the ad says 90 degree, but it's not the same design as the one from the cutaway.

The cutaway differs from the advertisement...

It would look like a twin-cam.

Anyway, Michael, why haven't you taken Sebastian to task on the genesis of the 'Bristol type' design?

he he   Being an ex-Bristol owner I like to give the BAC more credit than they are certainly due, the engine in the 400 not being an exact copy of the 328 after all.  As for that dohc engine it remains a mystery.  Old Otterbein must have been a gifted fettler if he could design and get made either a complete head or some modification to the Testadora type incorporating a tappet system as the cams would have been a long way from the valve stem tips.  He certainly raced the Surva quite extensively in various guises at some serious race tracks but only the original itteration actually had a Surva blower.  He kept the name to advertise the bolt-on Surva kits he sold.  Intriguing.

ST

The cutaway differs from the advertisement...

It would look like a twin-cam.

Anyway, Michael, why haven't you taken Sebastian to task on the genesis of the 'Bristol type' design?