Visibility in F1 cars (Vettel rejoining track in Monza 2019)

There's already an ongoing thread for exploring Vettel's ontrack mistakes and what can be done about them but I thought it was worth focusing on one particular aspect of this incident from yesterday:



 
Vettel's defence/ explanation is thus:

"When I spun I was looking the other way, I saw there was quite a bit of a gap," Vettel said.

"Obviously then you don't start counting. I knew there would be cars coming, but originally I thought I would be much quicker rejoining. That took obviously a lot longer.

"Coming back I knew that there will be a gap, but I struggled a little bit to get out, I think I was stuck on the grass. I lost a bit of momentum there, it took a bit longer.

"So certainly not ideal, but I couldn't see anything to the left.

"It is compromised because we have the high cockpit, but I don't think it's an option to drop that."

 

https://www.autospor...nt-see-anything

In all honesty, I'm not really convinced but thought it was reasonable/ interesting to consider this point of view.

Visibility aside, he should be waiting for the team and/or marshalls to flag him back on.

When at an amateur trackday full of... well, amateurs we wait to be flagged back onto the circuit. When I'm strapped into my harness I can't see over my shoulder so have to rely entirely on a marshal guiding me back on.

I appreciate in high stakes F1 he just wanted to get back on circuit, but I'm glad the book was lobbed at him - as safety should never be compromised like that. 

An interesting discussion between Matt Bishop, formerly of McLaren (amongst other senior motorsport related comms posts) and Mark Hughes. Worth going to look at the tweet on twitter because it includes video of the incident from many angles too
 

https://twitter.com/...710856486805511

Whining?

Not having the visibility is one thing, but all the logic and common sense suggests that if you don't see if anyone's coming, the safest way to rejoin the track would be to start turning while off the track and get on the asphalt at an angle, taking up as little space as possible. Instead he just barges in straight on and only then starts turning, taking up most of the track's width in the process. Literally the worst way he could've done it. I get that it's a stressful, high pressure situation and he wanted to get going as fast as possible. But he's a professional racing driver with over two decades of track experience, you'd think that it counts for something.

Not having the visibility is one thing, but all the logic and common sense suggests that if you don't see if anyone's coming, the safest way to rejoin the track would be to start turning while off the track and get on the asphalt at an angle, taking up as little space as possible. Instead he just barges in straight on and only then starts turning, taking up most of the track's width in the process. Literally the worst way he could've done it. I get that it's a stressful, high pressure situation and he wanted to get going as fast as possible. But he's a professional racing driver with over two decades of track experience, you'd think that it counts for something.

Stroll did a similar thing though, only he was on track, while Vettel was off it. It also doesn't help the cars are much longer now, so more of the track is taken and it becomes a large object to hit.

Vettel turn full to the right straight after the spin ..

You all seems to forget that these cars are long and don't turn like your everyday car.

Look at the front wheel. The car just don't turn.

That's a fair point but I don't see any full turn to the right at first. He makes a small turn and then visibly straightens the steering as he's coming onto the track. Then makes a proper turn already on the tarmac.

There was much discussion here after the Hubert crash about drivers not slowing down when approaching yellow flags. Does anyone have any lap time data for Ricciardo, Hulk and Gasly on that lap?

There was much discussion here after the Hubert crash about drivers not slowing down when approaching yellow flags. Does anyone have any lap time data for Ricciardo, Hulk and Gasly on that lap?

Gasly was slow because Stroll sent him through the gravel.

As others have said, Vettel should have backed up or waited for the all-clear on the radio. Yeah this costs time, but so does driving into other cars and having to have your front wing changed and serve a 10 second stop/go    , and then there's the danger angle. Vettel always resorts to booting it when he makes a mistake which often compounds the error he's already made, you'd think he'd have got his head round that by now.

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 09 September 2019 - 10:52.

I think the problem is that the natural instinct for any driver is to get back on track as soon as possible. It is very hard for any driver to fight that instinct.

I get that visibility is restricted, but that means all the more than he shouldn't be driving back onto the track blind.

Seb was saying earlier in the weekend that F1 isn't safe enough. Well, he needs to look at himself first. Yesterday was one of the most dangerous on track incidents we've seen in F1 in recent years, very scary.

The witch hunt is reaching ridiculous proportions.

Visibility was a problem, he didn't want to lose time. His competitive nature took over and unfortunately he caused an accident and endangered others.

Comparable mistakes happen to all drivers. Heck, it happened near immediately with Stroll. There is no switch in their minds where they become boy scouts and fully surpress their competitive nature.

You guys are just flogging a very injured horse.

Edited by Atreiu, 09 September 2019 - 19:12.

Seb using alot of words when he could have used 2. "Poor Judgement"

It's like any maniac motorist - "I can't actually see if it's clear to overtake this car/cyclist/horse around this corner/over this blind brow, but I don't want to slow down so I'll just have to hope it's clear"

There was much discussion here after the Hubert crash about drivers not slowing down when approaching yellow flags. Does anyone have any lap time data for Ricciardo, Hulk and Gasly on that lap?

I can certainly accept that Seb's vision (and that of Lance) would have been obstructed by the car and the halo. However, I also agree that if you can't see if it is safe to rejoin the track, you shouldn't do so.

Reverse gear...is there still a rule against using it during a race or has that been scrapped? Would potentially have been an idea for Seb to get a better view of the track. Lance I can be more forgiving of because he never actually left the track. 

Maybe F1 needs more "spotters" ?

(Off-topic, but I believe video footage suggests that all drivers who had a reasonable chance to respond to the yellow flags coming out at the top of Eau Rouge/Raidillon managed to slow down and virtually come to a stop before they reached the scene of the accident.)

Yep, just curious as to what the actions of the first drivers on the scene were, how much they had slowed down when approaching, first, Vettel's stranded car and, then, Stroll. Neither Stroll nor Gasly appeared to be going slow enough to stop, no? Not defending either Vettel or Stroll at all, both indefensible, but curious given the attention given to the topic last week.

Hypothetically, both Stroll and then Gasly should have been in a position to stop, no?

Curious we don't have spotters in F1 despite all this GPS tech. And reversing would be the only way to get better mirror view as well as rejoin at a safer angle. Stroll was on the track, reversing not an option. Also, Vettel being there made it risky as drivers could overlook Stroll having seen a yellow and a misplaced car.

Reverse gear...is there still a rule against using it during a race or has that been scrapped? Would potentially have been an idea for Seb to get a better view of the track. Lance I can be more forgiving of because he never actually left the track. 

 

Maybe F1 needs more "spotters" ?

If Vettel had reversed with a view to rejoining the track, it would have made sense if he would have reversed to point the nose at Parabolica? He would then see even less, we know the mirrors are practically useless.

I think the problem is that the natural instinct for any driver is to get back on track as soon as possible. It is very hard for any driver to fight that instinct.

Setting up guidelines and rules and protocols for this is child's play. Do it wrong, black flag and worse.

The witch hunt it reaching ridiculous proportions.

Visibility was a problem, he didn't want to lose time. His competitive nature took over and unfortunately he caused an accident and endangered others.

Comparable mistakes happen to all drivers. Heck, it happened near immediately with Stroll. There is no switch in their minds where they become boy scouts and fully surpress their competitive nature.

You guys are just flogging a very injued horse.

We saw how well reversing works in F1 at Baku. 

Anyway, I wonder if they might have had to thow a VSC if Seb had sat there.

Afaik the reverse gears don't always work on F1 cars. The designers make them as light and small as possible and hope the drivers won't have to use them. At least that's how it was in the nineties.

I think Vettel should've shown a lot more caution but I confess I don't know what the correct protocol is when you spin and come to a halt slightly off track.

There was a time when it could be very hard to find reverse, particularly with conventional clutch/maunal box set ups, but I thought reverse gear was much more reliable/usable these days?

If Vettel had reversed with a view to rejoining the track, it would have made sense if he would have reversed to point the nose at Parabolica? He would then see even less, we know the mirrors are practically useless.

He could have at least rejoined the track more side-on and left room for cars to pass to his left, certainly safer than driving straight onto and crossing the track in a fast bend.

Edited by screamingV16, 09 September 2019 - 11:22.

I can certainly accept that Seb's vision (and that of Lance) would have been obstructed by the car and the halo. However, I also agree that if you can't see if it is safe to rejoin the track, you shouldn't do so.

 

Reverse gear...is there still a rule against using it during a race or has that been scrapped? Would potentially have been an idea for Seb to get a better view of the track. Lance I can be more forgiving of because he never actually left the track. 

 

Maybe F1 needs more "spotters" ?

Was there ever such a rule? Maybe wrong, but not aware of that. There has long been a rule against reversing in the pit lane.

There was a time when it could be very hard to find reverse, particularly with conventional clutch/maunal box set ups, but I thought reverse gear was much more reliable/usable these days?

https://www.youtube....h?v=01Z9RkUBctQ

Danny Ric's works.       

https://www.youtube....h?v=01Z9RkUBctQ

 

Danny Ric's works.       

Ha, ha I knew there was a recent example.

https://www.youtube....h?v=01Z9RkUBctQ

Danny Ric's works.

I can certainly accept that Seb's vision (and that of Lance) would have been obstructed by the car and the halo. However, I also agree that if you can't see if it is safe to rejoin the track, you shouldn't do so.
 
Reverse gear...is there still a rule against using it during a race or has that been scrapped? Would potentially have been an idea for Seb to get a better view of the track. Lance I can be more forgiving of because he never actually left the track. 
 
Maybe F1 needs more "spotters" ?

 
I thought the later rule was you couldn't use reverse on the track directly, as Senna does here. 
 

 
I'm not sure now!

 
I thought the later rule was you couldn't use reverse on the track directly, as Senna does here. 
 

 
I'm not sure now!

Again at Baku there were plenty reversing onto the track from the run off, but thats pretty safe as the cars should be visible to everyone, especially with the yellowist of yellow flags waving. 

Strictly speaking the requirement to rejoin safely probably meant, in that instance, that Vettel should have reversed so that he could have entered the track after the third apex.

There is, of course, absolutely no question of him being able to look for traffic before rejoining the track at where he did, at 90 degrees to the racing line. He was trying to rejoin immediately after a car passed, on the assumption that there would be a gap to the next car large enough to allow that car to see and avoid him. Whether that's enough to satisfy the requirement to rejoin safely is open to debate. If it had worked (i.e. if there had been no contact), I doubt anyone would have questioned it.

Applying the rules equally strictly to Stroll, he's at fault as well. There were double waved yellows in that sector. When Vettel pulled out, why didn't Stroll stop? If he couldn't stop, his speed under yellow must have been excessive.

Again at Baku there were plenty reversing onto the track from the run off, but thats pretty safe as the cars should be visible to everyone, especially with the yellowist of yellow flags waving. 

I get that, I was trying to say I thought the rule was that you couldn't throw the car into reverse while you were still actually on track.

At some point in F1 history, having a reverse gear was not always guaranteed. I think before they froze the ratio's in for the full season the cars would only have reverse on circuits like Monaco where it was likely they would need to reverse out of a run-off zone. Nowadays they always have it, and it always works - and it's just fine, no excuse to not use it really (as long as the rules allow it)

Why are they stil messing around with mirrors? Isn't it about time it's changed to rear- and sideview camera's? Use the halo to stash the screens, connect it to the live feed, and nobody can argue about the visibillity...

Just my thoughts...

Gr.Jeroen

Yep, no excuse now really.

Regulations:

Making excuses for his poor racing/judgements/mistakes...

At some point in F1 history, having a reverse gear was not always guaranteed. I think before they froze the ratio's in for the full season the cars would only have reverse on circuits like Monaco where it was likely they would need to reverse out of a run-off zone. Nowadays they always have it, and it always works - and it's just fine, no excuse to not use it really (as long as the rules allow it)

 

 

 

Yep, no excuse now really.

Not sure if that was the case, but I'm sure I remember it being said that with old stick-shift (non-electronic?) gearboxes, reverse was physically hard to find/engage and this was further compounded by the gearbox getting very hot and metal bits expanding etc.

Edited by screamingV16, 09 September 2019 - 11:45.

 

An interesting discussion between Matt Bishop, formerly of McLaren (amongst other senior motorsport related comms posts) and Mark Hughes. Worth going to look at the tweet on twitter because it includes video of the incident from many angles too
 

Matt Bishop‏Verified account @TheBishF1 18h18 hours ago

More

For Lance Stroll to do something as dangerous as this was reprehensible. For Sebastian Vettel to do it... was almost unforgivable. I actually find it rather sad. #HowTheOnceMightyIsFalling #ItalianGP

https://twitter.com/...710856486805511

 

Mark Hughes‏ @SportmphMark 15m15 minutes ago

More

In mitigation Matt, the halo/HANS combination makes it near-impossible to see from such an acute angle.

 

It was a mistake in judgement, for which he paid, but Matt Bishop is just being an ass here as so often before. I find that hashtag bit rather sad in fact.

Curious we don't have spotters in F1 despite all this GPS tech. And reversing would be the only way to get better mirror view as well as rejoin at a safer angle. Stroll was on the track, reversing not an option. Also, Vettel being there made it risky as drivers could overlook Stroll having seen a yellow and a misplaced car.

They do have spotters to some extent. I think it was Lewis, maybe Leclerc, who had his engineer constantly saying that somebody was immediately behind him. 

 
I thought the later rule was you couldn't use reverse on the track directly, as Senna does here. 
 

 
I'm not sure now!

Does Senna actually use reverse there, or just puts it into neutral, and lets the momentum of the car continue him in that direction ?