Honda or Renault. Which engine has been better this season?

I'd vote Verstappen, but he wasn't in the pole.

Renault is the better PU

But RB/Honda the much better package obviously.

Like how Ferrari has the better PU but the Merc has the better package.

Renault is the better PU

But RB/Honda the much better package obviously.

Like how Ferrari has the better PU but the Merc has the better package.

Renault is the better PU

As in, if Red Bull had stayed with them they would be happier with their position - they would probably be the outright quickest car, but might have less points due to reliability. which i think would bode better when targeting a championship next season.

Redbull was complaining about driveability issues, particularly turbo lag at some races.

Yes, but praising it compared to the Renault. Not only Max, but Gasly too and last year the STR drivers said it was quite a difference as well. And the lag happened twice just with Max as far I am aware and has been fixed. Last year there were far more complaints about drivability when using the Renault, but to be fair, I haven't heard Dan or Hulk complain about it this year, so that might have been solved.

Edited by Reddington, 13 August 2019 - 08:23.

It was not turbo lag, it was lag between pedal and PU.

Yes, but praising it compared to the Renault. Not only Max, but Gasly too and last year the STR drivers said it was quite a difference as well. And the lag happened twice just with Max as far I am aware and has been fixed. Last year there were far more complaints about drivability when using the Renault, but to be fair, I haven't heard Dan or Hulk complain about it this year, so that might have been solved.

yes but you can't really take what a driver says about his current PU compared to his old one as gospel, can you?  I mean, they're hardly going to say they miss the Renault, are they?

Redbull was complaining about driveability issues, particularly turbo lag at some races.

yes but you can't really take what a driver says about his current PU compared to his old one as gospel, can you? I mean, they're hardly going to say they miss the Renault, are they?

Most of those power deficit quotes were from around France when the Honda ran very conservative. They upped it with mode updates a lot since then. I haven't seen much of those complaints vs Renault since then? If the Monza update delivers 25hp constantly like it does now, that could give them a couple of tenths they are missing now.

...that could give them a couple of tenths they are missing now.

Yes, although no one sits still. Ferrari is said to bring another 20 horses at Spa for example.

 

Win them both , Spa and Monza, or at least one of the two events; this is the goal of the Ferrari company. For this reason, the Italian team will bring the second evolution of its power unit to the track already at Spa.

An evolution that has the goal of improving efficiency rather than a spasmodic search for additional power (there will be few HPs available).

https://www.f1analis...edes-honda.html

Edited by WouterF1, 14 August 2019 - 10:05.

Let me wait before engine penalties start piling up before I vote Honda. I suspect it'll become clear Renault have not been playing with this, expecting any penalties, whereas Honda are and this will hurt the Honda teams in the last quarter of the season.

It was clear from the start that Honda elected to incur 1 (or maybe even 2) penalty(ies). 

That has been said even before the start of the season. The aim was to bring as much development to the track as possible. So far RB Honda had 0 PU related retirements and TR 1. 

I can't even count the retirements of Renault.

So: both will incure penalties. Problaby a similar amount actually. But Renault had a lot of retirements and RB Honda zero... 

Both ran a similar amount of parts, but none failed during races, whereas Renault had quite some race-ending failures. You rather start last and finish in the top 10, than drop out while in the top 5.

There almost isn't a race without some kind of trouble for one of the Renault powered cars, be it in race or qualifying. I tried to make a list.

RB

1) Driveshaft - Gasly - Baku.lap 38

TR

No technical DNF's

1) Power Unit swap - Kyvat - France Q

2) Exceeding PU components - Kvyat - Austria Q

3) Exceeding PU components - Albon - Austria Q

McLaren

1) Power Unit - Sainz - Australia lap 9

2) Gearbox - Sainz - Bahrain lap 53

3) Gearbox change - Norris - Spain Q

4) Suspension (due to overheating brakes) - Norris - Canada lap 8

5) Exceeding PU components - Norris - Germany Q

6) Power Loss - Norris - Germany lap 25

Renault

1) Power Loss - Ricciardo - Bahrain lap 53

2) Power Unit - Hulkenberg - Bahrain lap 53

3) Power Unit - Hulkenberg - China lap 16

4) Power Unit swap - Hulkenberg - Spain Q 

5) Exceeding PU components - Hulkenberg - Austria Q 

6) 'Exhaust' - Ricciardo - Germany lap 13

7) Exceeding PU components - Ricciardo - Hungary Q 

Impressed by Honda this season - well done Honda!

 

That's the one thing I never understood about Dan's move - he had such unreliability in 18 and that has continued this year.

"Tag, you're it"!

- Alonso

Not surprised by the Renault reliability problems. And there arent too many of them.
Datas say the Renault made a bigger performance jump and is in front of the Honda performance-wise. But in the same time Honda is said to have better infrastructures (i.e more high tech test-benches). So reliability will be sorted out more progressively IMO, in other words it will take more time. 

I personally prefer to have the power. It's easier to make a fast PU reliable : )

The Honda has the cooler sound off throttle, so there is that.

Not surprised by the Renault reliability problems. And there arent too many of them.
Datas say the Renault made a bigger performance jump and is in front of the Honda performance-wise. But in the same time Honda is said to have better infrastructures (i.e more high tech test-benches). So reliability will be sorted out more progressively IMO, in other words it will take more time. 

I personally prefer to have the power. It's easier to make a fast PU reliable : )

Certainly the argument can be made that the Renault is the superior power unit.  But that does not mean Red Bull are fools and imbeciles for choosing an alternative unit, although it could be argued so.

What are these datas that prove the Renault has more performance than the Honda ?

I see a lot of people saying that, maybe they are right, but how do you see this ?

Not surprised by the Renault reliability problems. And there arent too many of them.
Datas say the Renault made a bigger performance jump and is in front of the Honda performance-wise. But in the same time Honda is said to have better infrastructures (i.e more high tech test-benches). So reliability will be sorted out more progressively IMO, in other words it will take more time. 

I personally prefer to have the power. It's easier to make a fast PU reliable : )

Maybe in a different engine formula, but for whatever reason Renault have never been reliable (in this formula).  It certainly has not been easy for them.

It's easier to make a fast PU reliable : )

Not surprised by the Renault reliability problems. And there arent too many of them.
Datas say the Renault made a bigger performance jump and is in front of the Honda performance-wise. But in the same time Honda is said to have better infrastructures (i.e more high tech test-benches). So reliability will be sorted out more progressively IMO, in other words it will take more time.
I personally prefer to have the power. It's easier to make a fast PU reliable : )

I personally prefer to have the power. It's easier to make a fast PU reliable : )

The fast PU in this case is the one that hasn’t even sniffed a podium or even a fourth place or the one that has two wins to its name on power tracks?

Even if the Renault has more power, the works partnership makes the Honda a better engine for Redbull.

I still don't understand what on earth McLaren were thinking. Ron said the only way to win will be with a works engine, they gave him the boot, then they gave Honda the boot, now they're just another customer team, with nothing more than that on the horizon..

Better to have a works Honda than even a customer Mercedes..

The Honda has the cooler sound off throttle, so there is that.

 

 

Certainly the argument can be made that the Renault is the superior power unit.  But that does not mean Red Bull are fools and imbeciles for choosing an alternative unit, although it could be argued so.

LOL!

I see what you are doing !

Nothing to do with the chassis its bolted into them?

TR is ahead of Renault factory team in podiums and points  Maybe if Hulk hadn't crashed in Germany they would be ahead, but he did and they aren't so... Of course you can always argue the TR is a better car than the Renault is, but I don't think that's plausible.

I pitty anyone who thought the Honda would stay a dud. Or a GP2 engine. Take a pick. And in that manner I also feel for McLaren.
Evidence of improvement by Honda was evident even in their last season together. Honda had a rough start in the hybrid era, but no one can deny their dedication and willingness to succeed. That Austria victory must have meant so much to the Honda team. Of which some have worked there during their abysmal "Earth Car" seasons as well.

Honda went deep, kneeled for McLaren and Tsar Alonso one too many times. Were laughed at, blamed for and ridiculed even by the team that they supplied and at the end, they were cast aside. "Thank you for the (alleged) 70 million a year. But now just piss off!"
Compare this to the blabla of Abiteboul and his everlasting ways of finding excuses. And although this story doesn't say anything about the better engine, it does say a lot in why I really really really hope that Verstappen and Red Bull Will succeed and become champions. Because the current Honda story is already a comparable one to the Senna and Honda story for the history books.

TR is ahead of Renault factory team in podiums and points Maybe if Hulk hadn't crashed in Germany they would be ahead, but he did and they aren't so... Of course you can always argue the TR is a better car than the Renault is, but I don't think that's plausible.

TR is ahead of Renault factory team in podiums and points Maybe if Hulk hadn't crashed in Germany they would be ahead, but he did and they aren't so... Of course you can always argue the TR is a better car than the Renault is, but I don't think that's plausible.

Even if the Renault has more power, the works partnership makes the Honda a better engine for Redbull.

I still don't understand what on earth McLaren were thinking. Ron said the only way to win will be with a works engine, they gave him the boot, then they gave Honda the boot, now they're just another customer team, with nothing more than that on the horizon..

Better to have a works Honda than even a customer Mercedes..

I don't know how it compares to the TR, but it's obvious the RB chassis is way ahead, and that was the comparison the post replied to was using. You should also note that the team above TR are also Renault powered. Just shows how stupid it is to try and compare the merits of an engine without taking into account the chassis.

But can an RBR lap a McLaren on chassis alone, with an engine deficit ? How can we be sure of it ?

Edited by Stephane, 17 August 2019 - 08:46.

Even if the Renault has more power, the works partnership makes the Honda a better engine for Redbull.

 

I still don't understand what on earth McLaren were thinking. Ron said the only way to win will be with a works engine, they gave him the boot, then they gave Honda the boot, now they're just another customer team, with nothing more than that on the horizon..

 

Better to have a works Honda than even a customer Mercedes..

Add to this that just before McLaren signed with Renault Zak Brown also said that you needed a Works deal to win now, which makes the decision even more baffling.

But can an RBR lap a McLaren on chassis alone, with an engine deficit ? How can we be sure of it ?

Look how far RBR was ahead of Renault when they were their customer.  It was hard to believe they had the same PU sometimes.  And now McLaren aren't beating Renault by anywhere near the same margin.  So yes, I'd say an RB can lap another team on chassis alone, given their history

Add to this that just before McLaren signed with Renault Zak Brown also said that you needed a Works deal to win now, which makes the decision even more baffling.

And it's even more baffling if financials are concerned : Honda did give McLaren a free engines and $100m per season. They pay not a insignificant amount of money for Renault engines. What is McLaren F1 budget? Is that About $220m? So they give up half of their F1-budget to change engines. It must be the stupidest decision in F1 history ever.

But can an RBR lap a McLaren on chassis alone, with an engine deficit ? How can we be sure of it ?

Yep. SO with all those elements, you can say for sure which one is the better engine ?

I can not.

A little sidestory in all of this is the comstant accusation during their time at McLaren that Honda were difficult to work with and unwilling to accept new ideas, versus the input they now recieve from Ilmore off the back of Redbull, and how that input has been put to better use by Honda than it was by Renault.

I guess the evidence that Renault is still ahead of Honda is Abitebouil and his 1000 BHP claim,

the man who promised much earlier this year that his team would be straight in the mix with the top runners after that huge update planned for Paul Ricard two months ago ?

Evidence is hard to find as we will never get raw HP numbers.

But the jump of both Mclaren and Renault in the speed traps likely is not coincedence. RB admitted they designed an aero efficient chassis initially because they expected a bit less HP from Honda. But even with that aero efficient chassis, they were a bit behind the Mclaren en Renault in most speed traps. 

Based on qualifying speed traps, it looks to me like Renault has found some really strong peak HP. For the races it's much harder to really understand as there are too many variables for us casual viewers to digest. 

And it's even more baffling if financials are concerned : Honda did give McLaren a free engines and $100m per season. They pay not a insignificant amount of money for Renault engines. What is McLaren F1 budget? Is that About $220m? So they give up half of their F1-budget to change engines. It must be the stupidest decision in F1 history ever.

That wasn't always the case. I'm sure Williams were quite smug about their customer Merc units powering them to podiums during the time McLaren's works Hondas were spilling their guts all over the place.

If they were, it would have been very short sighted of them. With so few engine manufacturers now and no new ones at all, looking to throw a bottomless pit of money that all but guarantees them embarrassment for a few years, you are always going to be either just another customer team, or a B team..

Yep. SO with all those elements, you can say for sure which one is the better engine ?

 

I can not.

I agree, I can't make up my mind either.

Had Toro Rosso performed better that till date I might have gone for the Honda, but with McLaren doing so well as they do makes me believe that the Renault in a chassis of Redbull quality could have been a hot combo as well.

I think McLaren has better drivers than a lot of the teams it races against. And it's a bigger/better team than them. Haas? Racing P(ink Stroll)? 'Alfa Romeo' (Sauber)? TR? Williams? Renault should be where they are, but they aren't. Their engine is overrated. "1000hp" was their claim. For what, one lap in qualifying?