Nice to see somebody is tuning Teslas

… and the loudest noise was the tyres on the ripple strips    .

I'll let one of the locals comment on how good or bad the lap is, but it seemed to pull pretty well?

Didn't someone build a GT version of the Model S, but it wasn't very promising because the batteries overheated so much after a couple of laps?

Unless my historic trust in Road and Track is now misplaced teh dual motor Tesla Model 3 is one seriously quick , and impresisve car.

https://www.roadandt...nce-track-test/

does anybody like Greg know teh CV of Tesla's chassis guy  Lars Moravy?

Edited by mariner, 24 January 2020 - 20:44.

. . . he says something about Christian von Koenigsegg describing the Model 3 as the best daily commuter you can buy.

Didn't someone build a GT version of the Model S, but it wasn't very promising because the batteries overheated so much after a couple of laps?

When the McLaren-Honda partnership got to pre-season testing back in 2015 they only managed 7 laps in 4 days... and yet that engine is now a race winner...

I wouldn't write of racing/tuned Teslas or other GTs based on one project, one hot day and a bucketfull of skepticism.

When we built our 1993 solar car we took it to the proving ground and gave it a fairly reasonable workout. Then we set off to find some sun, about a 5 hour drive. The first day of testing, in our 90 km/h machine, we managed.... 7km.

I was fuming.

When the McLaren-Honda partnership got to pre-season testing back in 2015 they only managed 7 laps in 4 days... and yet that engine is now a race winner...

 

I wouldn't write of racing/tuned Teslas or other GTs based on one project, one hot day and a bucketfull of skepticism.

   I just mentioned the fact that someone had tried to tune a Tesla.  We have never heard a dicky-bird about it since, unlike the Honda engine, so can we not conclude that it was a complete and total failure?  

You really need to take a good draught from that bucket of scepticism.  Not everything about electric vehicles is great and wonderful and 100% successful.  There are good things and there are bad things , or at least less good things.  There will be successes and abject failures, just like in every field.  Try to acquire a little objectivity.

Edited by BRG, 02 February 2020 - 15:49.

   I just mentioned the fact that someone had tried to tune a Tesla.  We have never heard a dicky-bird about it since, unlike the Honda engine, so can we not conclude that it was a complete and total failure?  

No we can't draw that conclusion.

I do agree that multiple laps at race speeds would be a huge challenge for a consumer market EV. For the time being their forte will remain the drag strip and sprints (Pikes Peak).

Edited by gruntguru, 02 February 2020 - 22:21.

When an EV can get me from London to Perth to visit my daughter on one charge (like a tankful in my 1.4 turbo Octavia) I'll consider one.

When an EV can get me from London to Perth to visit my daughter on one charge (like a tankful in my 1.4 turbo Octavia) I'll consider one.

And how does your Octavia handle the wet bits?   

I just mentioned the fact that someone had tried to tune a Tesla. We have never heard a dicky-bird about it since, unlike the Honda engine, so can we not conclude that it was a complete and total failure?

You really need to take a good draught from that bucket of scepticism. Not everything about electric vehicles is great and wonderful and 100% successful. There are good things and there are bad things , or at least less good things. There will be successes and abject failures, just like in every field. Try to acquire a little objectivity.

Edited by Vielleicht, 03 February 2020 - 22:41.

Hi, new to the forum.

But as an EV fan (and F1 follower for decades) I think some of the comments above are inaccurate or are missing context.

The Tesla Model S was blindingly fast but was limited by the battery’s cooling which explained why the GT racing version never really worked.

TheModel 3 however is much less limited and very quick on a circuit within reason.

Porsche was deliberate in their efforts to make the Taycan track suitable and proudly took the Taycan to Nurburgring and achieved a 7min 43 sec lap time- interestingly just a smidgeon slower than their quick ICE cars. Tesla then trumped them with a next edition  Model S by doing a 7min 13sec lap which has put Porsche in a tricky position.... Prove the Taycan is quicker and show up the other ICE Porsche’s.....That Tesla time was up with racing 911s! 30 secs quicker than the Taycan...

And bear in mind that this is the worst EVs will ever be! Drag racing is already EV dominated; Pikes Pike too and all other tracks will follow sooner or later. The Tesla Model 3 Performance beats pretty well any other comparable sports sedan - BMW M3 included - on track as well as in drag racing.

Hi, new to the forum.

But as an EV fan (and F1 follower for decades) I think some of the comments above are inaccurate or are missing context.

 

The Tesla Model S was blindingly fast but was limited by the battery’s cooling which explained why the GT racing version never really worked.

 

TheModel 3 however is much less limited and very quick on a circuit within reason.

 

Porsche was deliberate in their efforts to make the Taycan track suitable and proudly took the Taycan to Nurburgring and achieved a 7min 43 sec lap time- interestingly just a smidgeon slower than their quick ICE cars. Tesla then trumped them with a next edition  Model S by doing a 7min 13sec lap which has put Porsche in a tricky position.... Prove the Taycan is quicker and show up the other ICE Porsche’s.....That Tesla time was up with racing 911s! 30 secs quicker than the Taycan...

 

And bear in mind that this is the worst EVs will ever be! Drag racing is already EV dominated; Pikes Pike too and all other tracks will follow sooner or later. The Tesla Model 3 Performance beats pretty well any other comparable sports sedan - BMW M3 included - on track as well as in drag racing.

What flavor is that Kool-aid?

Oh dear FatBoy.....trotting out the standard anti-EV/Tesla insults! Facts be damned.

Also looks like the whole stock market has drunk Koolaid as well OR finally woken up to the fact that vested interests have skewed the issue for so long.

As it happens Tesla and now Porsche are the only manufacturers making high performance EVs (excluding tiny specialist companies like Rimac) so they are the subject of this debate for now. I was just putting out facts to counter some of the misinformation in previous posts.

I’m sure that Porsche could go faster with the Taycan, but would they if it will expose their ICE cars!?

Disclaimer - I drive an EV - i3; not a Tesla. And I can tell you that they are just better by every metric - even as an F1 fan and car nut, I will never go back to an ICE - I’m done with fossil fuels wherever possible. We run the i3 on solar - the fuel saving costs are delightful!

The Tesla Model S record set around Nordschleife was not with a production car; no idea of what batteries and motors it had, but it certainly had a wmuch wider tyres and swollen arches compared to the production car - rumour has it the blacked out windows suggest it may have had no back seats and may not even have been a Model S chassis.

The Taycan they ran will certainly have been a production model, and there will be much quicker Taycans to come. Given a Model 3 has similar performance to a BMW M3 I'd assume it would be comfortably quicker than the lap the Porsche Taycan made, too; but I bet Porsche will go there again with a far quicker Taycan soon enough.

 Do I have to mention the enormous  elephant (more like a 200ton Blue Whale)  in the room?    

 You have to recharge the bloody thing  - takes about ten hours from flat.  

  Jesus H. Christ on a bicycle - be realistic!    

 Do I have to mention the enormous  elephant (more like a 200ton Blue Whale)  in the room?    

 

 You have to recharge the bloody thing  - takes about ten hours from flat.  

 

Jesus H. Christ on a bicycle - be realistic!    

This is roughly accurate a figure.

However, this is only true when charging from 0% all the way up to 100% on a 7 kW home charger. The kind you would plug it into overnight, every night...analogous to your own personal petrol station gently topping up your tank drop by drop as it sits on your drive/in the garage/on the street giving you the vehicle's full range (at least 250 miles in the Model 3's case) at your disposal every morning. 

If you were to go to a commercial fast-charging station with much higher charging powers (50-250kW) than a typical home installation ...(the kind you would only really need to visit if you are undertaking long trips in the order of hundreds of miles)... then you can get from 20% up to 80% in as little as 20 minutes. 

It's not an elephant in the room. You're just putting forward an incomplete picture... 

Kelpiex - this is clearly an uneducated knee jerk comment. Ben has made good points.

average annual mileage in UK (actually most countries) is about 12k miles - ie just over 30 miles a day. This is about 1-2 hours per day topping up charge on a home wall charger.

if you live in flat (on street parking only) then a 200 - 250 mile EV will give you about a weeks range. Then you go to a public fast charger while shopping or entertaining and charge full in under an hour. Simple, clean, convenient - as long as there is a charger somewhere suitable. If there isn’t now, there will be very soon.

once EVs are cheaper, chargers are ubiquitous and most EVs have decent range, it’ll be easier to operate an EV than an ICE car!

ok now start whining about long distance travel - but the same facts apply. Drive for 2-3 hours, charge for 45mins while peeing, walking, eating,  drinking.....

bit of planning and maybe marginally slower but worth it for a better world.

I've done a continuous non-stop drive or two through Europe taking driving in shifts and can conclude that no one should ever want to do such a thing and really should be taking regular breaks even if you have not been driving. 

With modern EVs I think even the comparative long range capability arguments are on thin ice. 

The argument that really does hold water is availability of charging infrastructure and the standardisation of types/payments/accounts needed to make owning an EV as convenient an experience as an ICE. Which is completely doable. 

  Clearly EVs like the Tesla are bloody good and are very high performance (- I would like to own one) - but they are essentially a rich person's toy like a vintage or "track day" car -  not practical  for even a normal  person with a bit of money.  You would also need a "proper" car   for when the EV was "flat" or "flattish".     

 This is a personal opinion but I would like a car that I don't have to constantly worry about its state of readiness to be used.   There will always be occasions when a car will be needed  in an emergency - sometimes as basic as a drunken relative (probably a teenage offspring)  who needs a lift home etc. in the middle of the night.  No manner of careful charging routines will allow for emergencies.  

  And why are you doing it  - to "save the planet"?  -  climate change is essentially crap and solely political.   Owning a EV would not help anyhow.     

 Surely all the above is basic common sense?  

Edited by Kelpiecross, 12 February 2020 - 05:13.

Clearly EVs like the Tesla are bloody good and are very high performance (- I would like to own one) - but they are essentially a rich person's toy like a vintage or "track day" car -  not practical  for even a normal  person with a bit of money.  You would also need a "proper" car   for when the EV was "flat" or "flattish".     
 
 This is a personal opinion but I would like a car that I don't have to constantly worry about its state of readiness to be used.   There will always be occasions when a car will be needed  in an emergency - sometimes as basic as a drunken relative (probably a teenage offspring)  who needs a lift home etc. in the middle of the night.  No manner of careful charging routines will allow for emergencies.  
 
  And why are you doing it  - to "save the planet"?  -  climate change is essentially crap and solely political.   Owning a EV would not help anyhow.     
 
 Surely all the above is basic common sense?

The issue at hand is basic common sense, you just don't seem to be using it. 
 
Say we use that average daily milage figure for a car of about 30 miles. That's easily between only 5-20% of a modern EV battery capacity depending on how big it is, giving you at least 80% of available range at the end of a typical day. Let's say worst case you are about to plug in for the night and you receive a phone call about an emergency that requires you to jump in the car and drive immediately. I would not call 80+% even 'flattish' - it's literally a majority of your available range. At the lowest end of available modern EVs that will give you well over 100 miles and in a higher spec Tesla perhaps even upwards of 300. What is the likelihood of that journey needing to be over 100 miles, let alone 300? 
 
When do you fill up your car with petrol? If you are like most people and it is with less than 100 miles in the tank then let's see how the 'emergency' argument stacks up. Taking the worst case again but for the petrol car and say you arrived home with a petrol car and with ~75 miles in the tank (it's fine, you'll refill on way to work tomorrow) and receive a phone call about an emergency that means you need to jump in the car  immediately and requires you to drive 150 miles. You'll need to stop for fuel which can easily lose you 10-15 minutes of journey time. Same journey in your EV (which you charge every night so start each day with a full charge) you can either do that 150 mile journey with no stop or, if your car has a smaller battery, can do it whilst making a fast charge stop which will take only about 20 minutes. So the difference compared to a petrol car is actually nowhere near as big as people seem to fear for the 'emergency situation'. 
 
So you see, your evaluation of EV range and recharge capability has been, at best, incomplete. 

Edited by Ben1445, 12 February 2020 - 09:29.

  Clearly EVs like the Tesla are bloody good and are very high performance (- I would like to own one) - but they are essentially a rich person's toy like a vintage or "track day" car -  not practical  for even a normal  person with a bit of money.  You would also need a "proper" car   for when the EV was "flat" or "flattish".     

 

 This is a personal opinion but I would like a car that I don't have to constantly worry about its state of readiness to be used.   There will always be occasions when a car will be needed  in an emergency - sometimes as basic as a drunken relative (probably a teenage offspring)  who needs a lift home etc. in the middle of the night.  No manner of careful charging routines will allow for emergencies.   

I completely agree that there are still people with vehicle usage patterns that cannot be satisfied by current EV technology. The remaining 90% of vehicles could be replaced by an EV. For example there are 3 cars in my household and they could all be replaced by EVs. 20 years ago, I was doing a 1000 km trip every few months so perhaps one of those three vehicles would need to remain a combustion vehicle.

As to "state of readiness" - actual owners typically report a massive improvement in convenience after purchasing an EV. In most cases, they NEVER use public charging. The battery is "full" every time they get in the car at the start of the day.

 Again - I ask the same question -  why do you buy an electric car?

Buying an EV because you like the way they go is OK.  But:   Again - to save the planet?   There is nothing wrong with the bloody planet.    If you buy an EV for this reason you are essentially an idiot.  

Ok kelpie you are clearly a climate change denialist and/or Trump fan. Won’t argue as I doubt you’d alter your opinion but that’s cool too.

but as a long time EV fan and an owner of an i3 I just know that EVs are better to drive and cheaper to boot! Of course EVs aren’t fully mature and have limitations but the future is rosy.

kelpie have you lived with an EV for a few weeks?
 

returning to essence of this topic,  I see a lightly modified Tesla Model 3 Performance equalled the McLaren F1 lap time at a Japanese race track recently.

To clarify:- that’s the McLaren sports car F1 , not an F1 car from McLaren!

Edited by GuyDormehl, 13 February 2020 - 20:25.

I fail to see how a $69000 (in Australia) Fiesta sized car can really be used as a 'cheaper' argument.

True - although a Model 3 is cheaper than anything else with equivalent performance.

GD - I have never even seen an  EV as far as I know let alone lived with one for a few weeks.    

Edited by Kelpiecross, 14 February 2020 - 03:58.

Kelpie - then pull your head in until you can speak from a valid and informed position!

remember a lot of what you read is Jaundiced  rubbish by vested interests or ignoramuses.....

Kelpie - then pull your head in until you can speak from a valid and informed position!

 

remember a lot of what you read is Jaundiced  rubbish by vested interests or ignoramuses.....

 Pull my head in?  Pull my head In?   GD you are an unmitigated bastard of the first water!   

returning to essence of this topic,  I see a lightly modified Tesla Model 3 Performance equalled the McLaren F1 lap time at a Japanese race track recently.

 

To clarify:- that’s the McLaren sports car F1 , not an F1 car from McLaren!

So a brand new high performance car is faster than a 22+ years old high performance car?  Wow.  How many laps did they do, I wonder, because a Tesla at full chat enough to beat the F1 wouldn't have much range if the battery temperature didn't get it first?

These sort of comparisons may convince the casual spectator, but car types such as ourselves really shouldn't be taken in.  We know that a lightly modified McLaren F1 ran fast enough to win the Le Mans 24 Hours.  When a Tesla does the same, I will be far more impressed than by the sort of claim above. ^

Is it, is it really...

 Again - I ask the same question -  why do you buy an electric car?

 

Buying an EV because you like the way they go is OK.  But:   Again - to save the planet?   There is nothing wrong with the bloody planet.    If you buy an EV for this reason you are essentially an idiot.  

How about a hyper local reason like reducing major-city pollution? 

Better way of saving the planet and reducing inner city pollution is sub 2000 lb compact electric, not 4000+ lb  700 hp super EV sedan..

But it won't sell in murka.

The race prepared Tesla Model S owned by SPV Racing from the stalled Electric GT project will race in the Portugese Hillclimb Championship this year

https://e-racing365....ese-hill-climb/

GD - I have never even seen an  EV as far as I know let alone lived with one for a few weeks.    

Where I live, you can't drive two blocks without seeing a Tesla coming the other way.

 Where do you live?   Teslaville? 

Edited by Kelpiecross, 07 March 2020 - 05:31.

Basically, near Seattle. They are everywhere.

I've got a house in Italy where I spend time and I've seen exactly one Tesla ever in the town there. So I guess their market penetration is pretty regionally specific.

I saw one in remote northern Wisconsin once. Genuinely made me wonder where you'd recharge or if any old 220 plug will do? 

Standard 110V outlet will charge a Model S at about 3.5 miles per hour.

https://carbuzz.com/...VOqTVjUUUX0LqHI

"Last month, a Tesla made headlines once again when a Model 3 set an astonishing lap time at the Tsukuba Circuit in Japan. Clocking a time of 1:04.7, the Model 3 raced around the twisty Japanese circuit just a tenth of a second slower than the McLaren F1. If that wasn't already impressive, the Tesla Model 3 Performance recently returned to the track and set a new fastest lap time of 1:03.3, beating the McLaren F1 by 1.3 seconds."

"Compared to the standard Model 3, the Ascension R is upgraded with a an adjustable coilover suspension kit, massive six-piston, 15.5-inch uprated brakes and numerous carbon fiber components including side skirts, a rear diffuser, a carbon rear bumper, and a massive rear wing."

I think we'd need a lot more data. 

Also, I can run pretty damn fast for a minute. It gets much worse in subsequent minutes.

Horses for courses. Usain Bolt doesn't run marathons.