German Super Cars

Sunday, Channel 4, 8 pm

Richard Williams and others on pre war Mercedes and Auto Unions.

I see at as "Hitler's Supercars" on my Sky Guide. Guess it's a more eye-catching title...

I must admit, I had been rather put off by the title, but if Richard Williams is involved I'll look in.

I must admit, I had been rather put off by the title, but if Richard Williams is involved I'll look in.

The title is relevant, The Hitler govt put a lot of money into those teams.

While they may have still been good without the money we all know that money generally produces better results.

 

I see at as "Hitler's Supercars" on my Sky Guide. Guess it's a more eye-catching title...

Golfing for Cats syndrome.

A review of the American edition in the NYT refers to the similar idea of 'Lincoln's Doctor's Dog', coined by Bennett Cerf, founder of Random House.

I must admit, I had been rather put off by the title, but if Richard Williams is involved I'll look in.

Eberhard Reuss is also listed as a participant, as is the historian James Holland. However, it seems it's fronted by Chris Routledge of Coy's ...

The title is relevant, The Hitler govt put a lot of money into those teams.

While they may have still been good without the money we all know that money generally produces better results.

Comparative peanuts really. We worked out that the subsidy was worth about 15% of the total cost of running the two teams:

https://forums.autos...g/#entry8365363

The title is relevant, The Hitler govt put a lot of money into those teams.

...

If not money, heavyweight approval at least. Oh, I'm well aware of that, obviously (is there anyone around these parts that isn't...?!) - it just seemed a touch too 'sensationalist' to me.

Edited by 2F-001, 24 July 2020 - 08:24.

Should be worth a watch. I remember BBC's Supercharged series, that aired in the late 80s, which featured that pre-war era. I must still have my VHS copy lying in a box somewhere.

The title is relevant, The Hitler govt put a lot of money into those teams.

While they may have still been good without the money we all know that money generally produces better results.

Consider the government funds as 'seed money'. The manufacturers put in ten times as much, plus contributions in kind from the motor industry -- the two teams were initially in competition with Alfa Romeo, then between themselves. Some people would have been doing it for the sport, some for a dreadful nationalistic rationale and others of different instincts because it justified why military projects progressed more slowly... Germany was at war but somehow in 1940, BMW won the Mille Miglia!

Well, nine out of ten for effort.

But I was very surprised to hear from Chris Routledge that the German teams were booed at Donington Park in 1936 for 'going too fast'.

Not sure about his assertion that the return of two DB603 engines was particularly crucial to German aircraft production either.

And no mention of Aldo Zana's research into Rosemeyer's crash.

Frankly, that Routledge guy got on my nerves.

I'm sorry to say I thought it was pretty poor.  A lot of Hitler this and that as if he was micro-managing every aspect and a bit of a mish-mash as to what they covered.  I was hoping for a lot better.  BBC's Supercharged is mentioned above and this was nowhere near being in the same league.

But it was - apart from that extraordinary Donington comment and a suggestion that the German cars were never beaten after 1934 - pretty much factually correct. While Hitler didn't micro-manage, he did take a keen interest and did always visit the Berlin Motor Show. In a 50-minute programme it would be difficult to give a comprehensive overview of 1930s motor sport without confusing the issue by introducing other characters like Hühnlein - whose role would then need to be explained, etc etc. Joe Public knows who Hitler and Goebbels were and roughly what they did. It would be perfectly possible to produce a six-part series of programmes just on the 1934-39 seasons, interweaving the more general politics of the time. In fact, thinking about it, more like ten parts!

I liked the way Reuss slipped in the original 'Silver Arrows' source too.

Well it was verging on the annoying in the end: the Routledge chap saying "Carackacciola" for a start. Plus it seemed to lose its way. There just wasn't enough detail - no great mention of locations etc (I often wondered where some of the footage was shot) and weirdly avoiding any footage of the banking at Avus too.

Production was also a disappointment: If you are going to mention the engine sound, maybe some footage of the cars without any talkover or incidental music would be an idea!

Also if you're going to illustrate the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain with reference to German engine technology, don't show footage of Merlin-engined Hispano Buchons!

For me it was a 3/10. It had great potential, but one maybe targeted at folks who love anything with 'Hitler', 'Nazi' or 'secret' in the title.

What a waste of an opportunity.

Most of the footage used was actually of Avus, presumably from German newsreel sources provided/researched by Reuss, of 1920s and early 1930s races. One short piece from the Shell History of Motor Racing - again of Avus - with original voiceover. The unbanked South Curve certainly featured, as did a still of Caracciola's 1924 German GP victory. There was correctly identified film from Montlhéry of the 1934 GP de l'ACF. Some 'incidentals' of the Nürburgring and possibly - I'd need to rewatch it - some of the 'Zementbahn' cycle racing tracks in the early 1930s.

Point taken on the engine sound. However, almost all the newsreel film which was shot in the 1920s and 1930s had generic sound over-dubbed. Offhand, I can only think of one source for genuine 'in period' Mercedes engine sounds - a German feature film called Es Leuchten die Sterne. And even that was filmed on an indoor studio set.

"Caracciola's 1924 German GP victory"

THAT I would have loved to see!

 ;)

Caffeine deficit!

1926 of course.

Frankly, that Routledge guy got on my nerves.

The caption said he is an auctioneer - would that be with Coys?

Williams may have had a useful contribution to make, but the arm-waving and use of "historical present" got in the way, whereas Reuss made his points clearly and concisely.

ETA Sorry it seems I got the name wrong - it was Holland with the arm-waving etc.

Plenty to criticise as has been done in most of the above posts and much where it is easy to get it right so why didn't they.

Much was made of the age difference between Caracciola (b1901) and Rosemeyer (1909) and even v. Brauchitsch (1905) but our sport has always had drivers with a wide age range and men in their late 20s/early thirties would surely not have age-related thoughts.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 27 July 2020 - 13:11.

Routledge was very annoying, far too sure of himself without good cause. The sort of guy you would not buy a used car from. But then he works for Coys!

Okay, having rewatched it on All4, I have identified just about all the film clips.

The ones in the first nine minutes or so are a mix of - at least - the 1926 German GP and the 1932 Avusrennen. Some from what may be unusual viewpoints for those used to seeing film of the post-1937 rebuild with the high banking. Most are taken at the South Curve - some from the grandstand overlooking the curve, one looking towards the entry to the curve and a couple at the exit going towards the return run - and the majority of the rest opposite the pits.

At 14 minutes, film of Stuck's first test runs of the Auto Union at Avus.

At 14'20" the well-known still of the AU at Monza.

At 14'45" stills of the 1934 Eifelrennen start and Fagioli in the same race. More stills from this race at 15'26".

At 15'15" Avusrennen 1934. More at 16'35".

At 16'05" a brief clip of the 1934 GP de l'ACF, out in the country section of Montlhéry. Again an unusual view - possibly the approach to Bruyeres?

The above clip reappears as part of the film of the GP de l'ACF at 18'00".

At 22'45" a still of the AUs at Budapest in 1936.

At 23'05" Spanish GP 1934.

At 24'00" Gyon Speed Week 1934.

At 24'45" Monaco GP 1935.

At 25'30" Rosemeyer, German GP 1935.

At 25'50" Rosemeyer, Eifelrennen 1935.

At 26'06" Rosemeyer, Coppa Acerbo 1937.

At 28'45" Italian GP 1935 or 1936. Too grainy to identify!

At 31'00" some random Nürburgring!

In the final roundup at the end - shots of what may be the Swiss GP (or possibly more of Lasarte) and a random clip of Rosemeyer during the 1937 Vanderbilt Trophy.

Will I be consigned to Outer Darkness if I confess the main highlight for me was Frau Rosemeyer?

Routledge was very annoying, far too sure of himself without good cause. The sort of guy you would not buy a used car from. But then he works for Coys!

True, he ruined the programme for me, and added very little to it, surely somebody better (and less irritating) could have been found. The other commentators were OK, but overall the whole thing was a disappointment, rushed, somewhat superficial, and a wasted opportunity, no more than 5/10 from me. The only plus point is that no-one mispronounced "Porsche".

When Richard Williams first appeared, I thought he was Lord March, now of course the Duke of Richmond

Will I be consigned to Outer Darkness if I confess the main highlight for me was Frau Rosemeyer?

I don't think it's possible to see too many pictures of Elly!

I don't think it's possible to see too many pictures of Elly!

As remarkable a person as her husband, I think.

As remarkable a person as her husband, I think.

She had all the pair's luck as she survived a lot of perilous aviating before giving up her licence aged 72 and living to make 100

Vitesse2 -- strictly off topic, but whilst you are attentive to this thread... have you seen your PMs?

Thanks, now back to the subject at hand...

 

 

When Richard Williams first appeared, I thought he was Lord March, now of course the Duke of Richmond

I turned on when James Holland was on screen and wondered what Michael Barrymore was doing on a documentary about 30s racing cars !

Agree with the comments about Chris Routledge.  I assume the comment dated 21/04/19 by Carguy2 in the link below refers to the same person ?

https://www.pistonhe...h=0&f=&t=371735

Further to Vitesse's list, I think the shots in the roundup included the cobbled area at the Forst Haus corner at Bremgarten 

I enjoyed it, I was familiar with all the Mercedes v Auto Union rivelry, but still good to see it all again. The question I do have is in relation the the Mercedes T 80 TotalSim Computation. Downforce was created at the rear by the venturi, with lift at the front, but at what speed, assuming a flat level road, did this become critical? It would be very relevant as to any assessment of likely record potential.

An odd mixture really; I expected more racing per se, and less LSR stuff , and I thought we'd get Seaman too , especially as Richard  Williams has just done his excellent book on him . More recycled film than I expected , often out of context - and I would have thought a lot of footage was still around ? I enjoyed it though , apart from the incredibly irritating Routledge who had to EMPHASISE nearly every WORD to SHOW us JUST how very KNOWLEDGEABLE he IS .  

Maybe I'm unlucky but every time I go to Goodwood some braying Rupert like him feels the need to stand near me and EXPLAIN things to his poor friends  

Edited by john aston, 28 July 2020 - 07:58.

Was it Routledge that was involved in a restoration programme a few years back about a Cockney and a Canadian doing bodge ups under the arches and some one from Coys came along and (over) valued the car at the end?

He obviously talked his way out of the German jail though!

Edited by Derwent Motorsport, 28 July 2020 - 07:59.

I enjoyed it, I was familiar with all the Mercedes v Auto Union rivelry, but still good to see it all again. The question I do have is in relation the the Mercedes T 80 TotalSim Computation. Downforce was created at the rear by the venturi, with lift at the front, but at what speed, assuming a flat level road, did this become critical? It would be very relevant as to any assessment of likely record potential.

You'd think they'd have made this data available, wouldn't you? There are a few mentions of having done the work on their Twitter feed, but no details of what their conclusions were and how they came to them. So perhaps this is acting as some sort of 'teaser' for another forthcoming project? Book? Magazine article?

At the time Cobb returned to Britain in August/September 1939 - almost certainly earlier than he intended, as (weather permitting) the 'record season' at Bonneville usually extended until early October and I believe he still had exclusive use of the salt flats as Ab Jenkins wasn't running that year* - he was quoted in the US press as saying that he believed he could have achieved at least 380mph with more time. 'Dunlop Mac' slightly contradicts this, saying in his autobiography that they only had three sets of tyres left - only enough for one more attempt - but doesn't make clear whether there were any more at Fort Dunlop which could have been shipped out if needed. Pre-air travel they could probably have still got them to Bonneville well within a fortnight if required; the fastest liners crossed the Atlantic in about 4½ days.

* The Railton wasn't shipped home until November 1939, presumably on a pre-booked passage, and Reggie Tongue was among his entourage. Reggie's next racing engagement was apparently in Zurich in October, so he presumably wasn't expecting to be back in Europe much before the end of September.

I was prompted by this to re-watch the Horizon - Supercharged programme, happily available on YouTube (although I do have my own video copy somewhere).  It is extraordinary how much is packed into 49 odd minutes.  Not covering exactly the same thing, of course, and they did have the advantage of being able to interview Rudolf Uhlenhaut, Hugh Conway, Bill Boddy and George Monkhouse, all of whom are no longer with us.  So not really fair to compare the two, I suppose.  But just as wonderful every time I watch it and with classically understated narration by Paul Vaughn.  

Okay, having rewatched it on All4, I have identified just about all the film clips.

The ones in the first nine minutes or so are a mix of - at least - the 1926 German GP and the 1932 Avusrennen. Some from what may be unusual viewpoints for those used to seeing film of the post-1937 rebuild with the high banking. Most are taken at the South Curve - some from the grandstand overlooking the curve, one looking towards the entry to the curve and a couple at the exit going towards the return run - and the majority of the rest opposite the pits.

At 14 minutes, film of Stuck's first test runs of the Auto Union at Avus.

At 14'20" the well-known still of the AU at Monza.

At 14'45" stills of the 1934 Eifelrennen start and Fagioli in the same race. More stills from this race at 15'26".

At 15'15" Avusrennen 1934. More at 16'35".

At 16'05" a brief clip of the 1934 GP de l'ACF, out in the country section of Montlhéry. Again an unusual view - possibly the approach to Bruyeres?

The above clip reappears as part of the film of the GP de l'ACF at 18'00".

At 22'45" a still of the AUs at Budapest in 1936.

At 23'05" Spanish GP 1934.

At 24'00" Gyon Speed Week 1934.

At 24'45" Monaco GP 1935.

At 25'30" Rosemeyer, German GP 1935.

At 25'50" Rosemeyer, Eifelrennen 1935.

At 26'06" Rosemeyer, Coppa Acerbo 1937.

At 28'45" Italian GP 1935 or 1936. Too grainy to identify!

At 31'00" some random Nürburgring!

In the final roundup at the end - shots of what may be the Swiss GP (or possibly more of Lasarte) and a random clip of Rosemeyer during the 1937 Vanderbilt Trophy.

An odd mixture really; I expected more racing per se, and less LSR stuff

True, an odd mix, but there was an awful lot of history and culture to cover in 50 minutes. With the right talking heads, I'd have enjoyed separate programmes about the pure sport, about the motor industry or Nazi attempts at motoring cultural hegemony. I was surprised by the speed record content and the programme needed a bit longer to explain how much speed records mattered after the Silver Arrows had dominated in circuit racing.

The only Rupert that I know of never  brayed. A low friendly growl perhaps?. But then Nutwood was a gentler place.

Speed records generally tend to be overlooked, but it's worth looking more generally at what was going on at the time, which I think would help people focus on why the Germans - and particularly Hans Stuck - got involved in an LSR project.

In addition to the LSR, Stuck was also aiming for water speed records; the design of his V16 AU-powered Tempo bears more than a passing resemblance to Campbell's Blue Bird K4, although it was very much smaller. He was actually German Motor Boating Champion in 1939 and when he turned up to accept his prize for that in 1940 he wore a Kriegsmarine uniform! It's not too much of a leap to assume that he'd have had ambitions to put a DB603 in a bigger boat in order to challenge Campbell for the outright WSR. (George Eyston also apparently had ambitions in that direction too.) Campbell broke the WSR four times between September 1937 and August 1939 with K3 and K4.

Germany had missed out on the golden age of air racing and the Schneider Trophy of course, but a Messerschmitt Bf109 piloted by Hermann Wurster claimed a land plane ASR of 379.63 mph in 1937 (previously held by Howard Hughes). Then in March 1939 Hans Dieterle set an outright ASR of 466.6 mph in a Heinkel He100 prototype, beating Francesco Agello's seaplane record which had stood since 1934 (and is still the seaplane record today!) Dieterle's record only lasted a month until it was beaten by Fritz Wendel in the one-off Messerschmitt Me209 racer; the Me209 was powered by a DB601, the type of unit originally intended for the Mercedes Benz T80. Wendel held the official piston-engined ASR until 1969.

And then there are the rail records. LNER's A4 Pacific class 4468 Mallard achieved a new steam-powered speed record in July 1938 - which of course still stands - but this probably niggled the people at Deutsche Reichsbahn, since their unnamed loco 05 002 had held that record since 1936. Just over a year later, an Italian ETR200 electric multiple unit set both a new average journey speed record and an outright in-service electric train speed record on a trip from Florence to Milan. Surprisingly, the outright electric speed record had been held by an experimental AEG loco since 1903 at a barely believable 131mph - at the time this was 50mph faster than the LSR for cars and wouldn't be beaten until 1954!

Re Mr Routledge - following Coy's most recent collapse into administration he has reportedly 'fled to Canada' while the company allegedly owes some £5.5-million with several owners who had sold their cars through Coy's auction Sales presently remaining unpaid.  Please note use of 'reportedly' and 'allegedly' here...but as yet I have heard nothing contrary to any of the above...

DCN

I was prompted by this to re-watch the Horizon - Supercharged programme, happily available on YouTube (although I do have my own video copy somewhere).  It is extraordinary how much is packed into 49 odd minutes.  Not covering exactly the same thing, of course, and they did have the advantage of being able to interview Rudolf Uhlenhaut, Hugh Conway, Bill Boddy and George Monkhouse, all of whom are no longer with us.  So not really fair to compare the two, I suppose.  But just as wonderful every time I watch it and with classically understated narration by Paul Vaughn.  

Yes, watching it demonstrates just how much has changed ,in the last 30 years,  in the way documentaries are produced and presented. I now regularly find myself irritated by what I see. All too often the makers don't trust the intelligence of the viewer and make programmes that are formulaic, populist and over dramatised.

Does anyone know if this program is available somewhere on the internet?

Thank you.

All4 finds it

All4 finds it

Jack is - unfortunately for him - on the wrong side of the Big Pond. Where you can't access All4 - UK and Ireland only.

''GLaird, on 27 Jul 2020 - 21:50, said:

I enjoyed it, I was familiar with all the Mercedes v Auto Union rivelry, but still good to see it all again. The question I do have is in relation the the Mercedes T 80 TotalSim Computation. Downforce was created at the rear by the venturi, with lift at the front, but at what speed, assuming a flat level road, did this become critical? It would be very relevant as to any assessment of likely record potential.

You'd think they'd have made this data available, wouldn't you? There are a few mentions of having done the work on their Twitter feed, but no details of what their conclusions were and how they came to them. So perhaps this is acting as some sort of 'teaser' for another forthcoming project? Book? Magazine article?''

Rather tongue in cheek, I would suggest a suitably corrected and optimised 'replica', and Guy Martin to have a run. It would make another great programme!

Watched it last night (recorded it on the day of broadcast). Trying not to sound like a broken record but Eberhard Reuss, James Holland and Richard Williams were OK. That knob Chris Routledge spoilt the programme. Some interesting if mismatched footage. However, we could have done with some modern footage of the Silver Arrows to help with the visual aspect.

Was it Routledge that was involved in a restoration programme a few years back about a Cockney and a Canadian doing bodge ups under the arches and some one from Coys came along and (over) valued the car at the end?

He obviously talked his way out of the German jail though!

Re Mr Routledge - following Coy's most recent collapse into administration he has reportedly 'fled to Canada' while the company allegedly owes some £5.5-million with several owners who had sold their cars through Coy's auction Sales presently remaining unpaid.  Please note use of 'reportedly' and 'allegedly' here...but as yet I have heard nothing contrary to any of the above...

 

DCN

There was an article in a French magazine about Mr Routledge's arrest at Techno Classica in Essen April 2019.

https://newsdancienn...ns-la-tourmente

A summary is on this forum, second last post : https://www.pistonhe...h=0&f=&t=371735

Coys under Routledge had a terrible reputation for not settling with clients after a sale, and all other related issues.

There was also a rumour late last year about a legal issue concerning an attempted transfer of speeding points.....

I guess he will escape this too if he remains in Canada.

I saw part of it on SBS the other night. Much taken with a bucket of salt BUT the downright lunacy of running those cars so fast on a cambered highway,, and more so with cross winds.

Though I suspect beaches would probably be more dangerous.

It does point out how Hitler spent plenty on making German prowess. 

Money that A. would have been spent better elsewhere B. more than what the manufacturers would have otherwise spent. IF in Auto Unions case at all.

 

 

Money that A. would have been spent better elsewhere

 I'm thankful that they did spend huge amounts on motor racing. I have no idea of relative costs but alternative uses for those funds included building more aircraft, tanks and UBoats.        

Money on race cars did not necessarily mean less money for other things. Instead, they built all those weapons without really caring about money. That is why they needed to occupy other countries, otherwise the economy would have been totally bancrupt in 1940. Without a war, tanks and U-boats do not generate very much return on investment. So one of the first things to do was always to plunder the national treasure.

Nazi economy hat its own way of logic or un-logic, it is hard to understand this by modern thinking.

Being a rather horrible day outside, I googled Chris Routledge and got hours of interesting reading!  The issues with Coys (under various variations of name) go back 16 years. 

Three questions occur, a) Why people with valuable cars to sell don't do some due diligence in whom they trust their car to and b) How Coys have kept going c) How Chris Routledge has remained a free man?