BBC footage of 1950 GP d'Europe - some parts previously lost? (merged)

BBC website has a video of supposedly previously unseen footage from the first GP to count for a Driver's Championship, presumably to mark the latest Silverstone British GP 70 years after that event.  I know I've seen some clips before, for example, Farina shaking hands with the King after the race, but the circuit map showing multiple Royal Boxes, and the footage of the Royal Family entering one is new to me.

https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/52641917

Edited by cpbell, 30 July 2020 - 18:56.

As Newsreel wasn't broadcast on Sundays, that film was presumably first - and last? - shown in its entirety on Monday May 15th 1950 at 8pm. Much of BBC Television's schedule on that day was taken up with cricket from The Oval - Surrey v the West Indians - with commentary by 'Johnners' and Jim Swanton. There was also basketball from the Empire Pool and Sports Arena, featuring none other than the Harlem Globetrotters in an exhibition game against the American All Stars.

As Newsreel wasn't broadcast on Sundays, that film was presumably first - and last? - shown in its entirety on Monday May 15th 1950 at 8pm. Much of BBC Television's schedule on that day was taken up with cricket from The Oval - Surrey v the West Indians - with commentary by 'Johnners' and Jim Swanton. There was also basketball from the Empire Pool and Sports Arena, featuring none other than the Harlem Globetrotters in an exhibition game against the American All Stars.

I must admit I didn't anticipate Johnners and E W Swanton to be mentioned in this thread! 

Not much interest yet, it seems (not that I'm moaning )  Maybe the subject is mainstream and there's nothing really new in this footage in the sense that it doesn't provide any information that wasn't already available?

Not much interest yet, it seems (not that I'm moaning )  Maybe the subject is mainstream and there's nothing really new in this footage in the sense that it doesn't provide any information that wasn't already available?

Quite the contrary! I have not seen this footage before (well at least some of it). Thanks for posting this!

Quite the contrary! I have not seen this footage before (well at least some of it). Thanks for posting this!

Thanks! 

This is a nice piece of film put out by the Beeb. I have seen the start sequence and possibly some of the action shots before but a lot of this is new to me. Even the royal footage is different to what has been shown previously.  Nice to see Reg Parnell beaming in the background in one shot. I wonder what other racing footage the BBC has hidden away in its archives ?

(I bet Silverstone would like to have that size crown on Sunday

Not much interest yet, it seems (not that I'm moaning ) 

We just wanted to keep you hanging on. There's definitely footage in there that I haven't seen before. Silverstone's idea of a royal box (built to the standard of their toilets) is better illustrated here than elsewhere too. Watching them mount the scaffold reminded me I used to be a republican, when I could be bothered about such things.

One gem is the opportunity to hear Farina's voice. Don't recall hearing it before.
 

Im sure the footage we're more used to seeing is Pathé's. The startline shots are from a slightly different angle - I get the impression that the Pathé cameraman was probably either on top of the pits or shooting his film from the top of a ladder, whereas the BBC man was at ground level. Makes an interesting comparison:

The Movietone man was a little further away at ground level and if you look carefully, I think you can actually spot the BBC's camera panning across as the cars leave the grid - and at the end you can also hear Farina speaka da Inglese!

http://www.aparchive...page=1&b=f0589e

Oh, and for an extra point, what's the error in the Movietone commentary?

Oh, and for an extra point, what's the error in the Movietone commentary?

I take it we're not thinking of the  prediction that the BRM would be able to compete with the foreign entrants, the reference to Silverstone being one of the quickest circuits in Europe (I suppose it was if you ignored Reims, Spa and Monza ) or the mispronounciation of "Fagioli"?

 

 

One gem is the opportunity to hear Farina's voice. Don't recall hearing it before.
 

I thought it was surprisingly high and thin, actually.

I take it we're not thinking of the  prediction that the BRM would be able to compete with the foreign entrants, the reference to Silverstone being one of the quickest circuits in Europe (I suppose it was if you ignored Reims, Spa and Monza ) or the mispronounciation of "Fagioli"?

Nope, none of those. A genuine error of fact, which was mentioned in another context and another thread very recently.

Nope, none of those. A genuine error of fact, which was mentioned in another context and another thread very recently.

How many countries were represented? 

I've definitely not seen that footage before. Thank you for posting it. 

Oh, and for an extra point, what's the error in the Movietone commentary?

Nope, none of those. A genuine error of fact, which was mentioned in another context and another thread very recently.

"The first Grand Prix to be watched by a reigning sovereign"?  or
"Juan Fangio, the former bus driver"  ?

Edited by D-Type, 31 July 2020 - 18:31.

"The first Grand Prix to be watched by a reigning sovereign"
"Juan Fangio, the former bus driver"

- 

Movietone's report didn't claim that he was the first to attend a GP, just that it was his first time at a race.  It was Pathe that made that claim regarding Fangio.

Movietone's report didn't claim that he was the first to attend a GP, just that it was his first time at a race.

Keep thinking on those lines ... as I said, the evidence is right here somewhere.

Keep thinking on those lines ... as I said, the evidence is right here somewhere.

I'm confused - how can the error be in the Movietone film when it was Pathe that made it?

I think I have seen parts of this before, either inserted into a documentary or there's a shorter version of this newsreel circulating. But it's not the more familiar Pathe footage.

I think I have seen parts of this before, either inserted into a documentary or there's a shorter version of this newsreel circulating. But it's not the more familiar Pathe footage.

I've definitely seen clips of it before, including the chap in his car waiting to get to the circuit, but it seems that the whole film, including voiceover, probably hasn't been shown since 1950.

I'm confused - how can the error be in the Movietone film when it was Pathe that made it?

I've sussed it out - we have three newsreels here
Post #1 has the BBC one
Post #2 has two:The Pathe one if you click on the picture and the Movietone one if you click on the link.  They appear to use the same footage with different commentaries but the Pathe one has been edited to a shorter length - 2'54" vs 3'09"

Apologies if this is repeat but I only just found this BBC recording 

https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/52641917

Apologies if this is repeat but I only just found this BBC recording 

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/52641917

See my original post.  

See my original post.

Threads have been merged I think - some posts can look unfairly silly when that happens!

Thanks!

Possibly worthy of inclusion here. Unless I'm greatly mistaken there's a sizeable cockup printed on this.

Stephen

It is a shame that the 1st and 2nd British Grand Prix are rarely acknowledged.  They are also ignored by the F1 website which proudly shows a timeline for the Italian GP, from 1922 but can't be bothered to mention the two British GP's held at Brooklands.

It is a shame that the 1st and 2nd British Grand Prix are rarely acknowledged.  They are also ignored by the F1 website which proudly shows a timeline for the Italian GP, from 1922 but can't be bothered to mention the two British GP's held at Brooklands.

Do they include the 1948 race on the website?
I believe all three races were titled "RAC Grand Prix" not "British Grand Prix".  The first two in accordance with the custom of the time, ie similar to the Grand Prix de l'ACF", and declaring it had the full support of the National Club.  But the 1948 race was the opposite.  Times had changed and the "British Grand Prix" was considered the more important title and because the RAC were worried about how the race would be supported and received and didn't want to call it "The British GP" in case it proved a flop.

Edited by D-Type, 24 August 2020 - 19:15.

The 1926 and 1927 races were officially the first and second Royal Automobile Club Grands Prix - mimicking the French, whose race was (at the time) called the Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France.

The Silverstone race in 1948 was called the RAC International Grand Prix.

The first 'RAC British Grand Prix' was the 1949 event.

You have to bear in mind that the RAC was on the horns of a dilemma at this time. The RAC Tourist Trophy had always been Britain's Grande Épreuve on the AIACR International Calendar. Grandes Épreuves were the framework on which the calendar was constructed; these were fixed and announced at the CSI's first calendar meeting in mid-September. There was a second level known as Épreuves à Priorité - GEs and EPs were so arranged as to never clash with each other; the rest of the calendar was constructed around them and announced after the official AGM during the Paris Salon the following month. In most years during the 1930s the TT and the Indianapolis 500 were the only GEs not run to the prevailing International Formula - and in 1938 the TT was the sole exception (it would also have been in 1939, had Hitler not intervened). Confusingly for our European cousins the continental press - especially the German press - often insisted on calling the TT the Grand Prix of Great Britain. You can also find references there to a United States GP, always actually meaning the 500.

In 1947, 1948 and 1949 the RAC had reserved dates for the TT as their Grande Épreuve, but in all three years they had been compelled to cancel it due to the lack of a suitable circuit. The 1950 TT was run but was not the British Grande Épreuve. When you consult the official lists of Grandes Épreuves, you find that amongst them is the Grand Prix d'Europe which was - at the time - a purely honorific title. In practice this title was always given to one of the existing Grandes Épreuves, but at least in theory it could perhaps have been conferred on any other event chosen by the CSI. But - and this is an important point - no country could host more than one Grande Épreuve. So, when the Silverstone race was announced as the Grand Prix d'Europe for 1950, that effectively forced the RAC's hand; from 1950 onwards the RAC British Grand Prix became the British Grande Épreuve, supplanting the Tourist Trophy.

I hesitate to correct you, but the first time that the RAC Tourist Trophy was run post-war was at Dundrod in September 1950.

Despite your assertion above, there was no 1949 race.

Amended ...

The 1926 and 1927 races were officially the first and second Royal Automobile Club Grands Prix - mimicking the French, whose race was (at the time) called the Grand Prix de l'Automobile Club de France.

 

The Silverstone race in 1948 was called the RAC International Grand Prix.

 

The first 'RAC British Grand Prix' was the 1949 event.

 

You have to bear in mind that the RAC was on the horns of a dilemma at this time. The RAC Tourist Trophy had always been Britain's Grande Épreuve on the AIACR International Calendar. Grandes Épreuves were the framework on which the calendar was constructed; these were fixed and announced at the CSI's first calendar meeting in mid-September. There was a second level known as Épreuves à Priorité - GEs and EPs were so arranged as to never clash with each other; the rest of the calendar was constructed around them and announced after the official AGM during the Paris Salon the following month. In most years during the 1930s the TT and the Indianapolis 500 were the only GEs not run to the prevailing International Formula - and in 1938 the TT was the sole exception (it would also have been in 1939, had Hitler not intervened). Confusingly for our European cousins the continental press - especially the German press - often insisted on calling the TT the Grand Prix of Great Britain. You can also find references there to a United States GP, always actually meaning the 500.

 

In 1947, 1948 and 1949 the RAC had reserved dates for the TT as their Grande Épreuve, but in all three years they had been compelled to cancel it due to the lack of a suitable circuit. The 1950 TT was run but was not the British Grande Épreuve. When you consult the official lists of Grandes Épreuves, you find that amongst them is the Grand Prix d'Europe which was - at the time - a purely honorific title. In practice this title was always given to one of the existing Grandes Épreuves, but at least in theory it could perhaps have been conferred on any other event chosen by the CSI. But - and this is an important point - no country could host more than one Grande Épreuve. So, when the Silverstone race was announced as the Grand Prix d'Europe for 1950, that effectively forced the RAC's hand; from 1950 onwards the RAC British Grand Prix became the British Grande Épreuve, supplanting the Tourist Trophy.

Thanks for that - I never realised that the TT was classed as a GE.

Early in the original clip there are scenes of jams on the roads around Silverstone.  It says that Bira abandoned his car to avoid the jams, then shows him getting into another car.  I'm not sure how that helped him avoid the jams but does anyone recognise the town where it happened?

Early in the original clip there are scenes of jams on the roads around Silverstone.  It says that Bira abandoned his car to avoid the jams, then shows him getting into another car.  I'm not sure how that helped him avoid the jams but does anyone recognise the town where it happened?

I presume it was Towcester.

I presume it was Towcester.

Could be right. Having played around with Street View, I think the building visible on the other side of the road behind the car Bira gets into could be Lloyds Bank