Carlos Sainz Jr believes Turn 2 in Sochi "shouldn't exist"

"Unfortunately in Turn 2, I had someone on the inside, and I ran a bit wide," Sainz said.

"By the time I decided to go around the bollard, I went around the bollard with a very, very narrow angle, and I misjudged my entry speed around the bollard and hit the wall pretty heavily.

"A misjudgement by my side, a mistake. I still think that corner shouldn't exist. It's not a very nice corner to drive around, and it generates these kind of situation. But I just misjudged it.

"It's still a corner that is not well designed. You saw today in the race just how many people are missing that apex, and having to go around the bollards, destroying the bollards, it's clearly not a great corner."

 

Daniel Ricciardo was also hit with a five-second time penalty during the race for failing to follow the bollards, while Haas driver Romain Grosjean destroyed one of them as he passed through the escape route, causing a virtual safety car.

 

https://www.autospor...ist-after-crash

https://www.autospor...ist-after-crash

I say he should extend that to Turn 1 and all the way up to Turn 18.

Edited by OvDrone, 27 September 2020 - 18:13.

I say he should extend that to Turn 1 all the way up to Turn 19.

I agree with him.  It's easy to dismiss him because he looked a little stupid today, but we had very serious accidents in the past due to these bollards.  Clearly this is a big safety issue, and ironically it exists because of "safe" tarmac runoffs.

Hmmm Carlos......Sochi shouldn't exist.....

I'll be honest here and say part of the reason I started this thread is thinking about the issue of turn two in the rather metaphysical way his turn of phrase suggests.

More prosaically and seriously, it doesn't seem like they've quite got it right there and his goofy looking accident shouldn't cloud that.

What I said in the track limits thread.

Turn 2 at Sochi is a disaster because the bollard arrangement didn't work at all.

 

It was too open so a driver like Verstappen could just bail out without any attempt to make the corner, and not lose anything.

 

It was also too open so a driver like Sainz would attempt to race through it and smack the wall, so it was too dangerous.

 

It was too out of the way for drivers making genuine small mistakes and cutting the corner, meaning for drivers like Ricciardo it made no difference and resulted in a time penalty, or for drivers like Grosjean it forced the driver to go off and try to make an angle that wasn't possible to get through.

 

I think this is a good example of where a full redesign of the corner and its associated runoff would be the best thing. Having that little left hand kink on the exit just makes it too tempting a shortcut, or too easy to make a small mistake and end up with a worse penalty than it would have been if it had just been grass.

The crash was definitely Sainz' fault but the corner is crap too. I agree that the track is crap too, with turn 2 and the bollards being one of many things wrong with it. 

Hmmm Carlos......Sochi shouldn't exist.....

This!

I'll be honest here and say part of the reason I started this thread is thinking about the issue of turn two in the rather metaphysical way his turn of phrase suggests.

 

It's how I read it first as well. And in both cases, he has a point.

If you want some metaphysics with your racing driver just think to Lewis Hamilton. His hand tattoos say a lot.

What I said in the track limits thread.

It was also too open so that a driver could potentially fall foul of the rule without even being aware of having done so.  Is it fair for a driver to be forced to make a split second call to take a self imposed (and as we saw potentially highly risky/dangerous) detour round the bollards, whilst not even sure that they had been in breach?  

The bollards were clearly designed for those who realised they had made a misjudgement and bailed out of the corner early - to prevent them or making it difficult to bomb straight across the corner.  Not for those who struggled and very narrowly failed to make the corner properly in a way which was little different to those coming over the chicane at Spa (can't recall the name) or similar.

Judging by the way he drove it, he believes it doesn't.

Edited by sportyskells, 27 September 2020 - 18:46.

Whatever. His mistake was colossal and it may have cost McLaren the third place in WCC.

Yeah, I thinks taxes are not very nice, they should not exist too.

I agree with him.  It's easy to dismiss him because he looked a little stupid today, but we had very serious accidents in the past due to these bollards.  Clearly this is a big safety issue, and ironically it exists because of "safe" tarmac runoffs.

The bollards are not the problem, the problem is drivers trying to go through them too fast. Or completely ignoring them.

The question is what to do with drivers who so blatantly and so often ignore the rules. Such reckless driving outside the track as we saw today should not be acceptable. The FIA is much too lenient with penalties.

put a wall or gravel trap there. problem solved

I agree with him.  It's easy to dismiss him because he looked a little stupid today, but we had very serious accidents in the past due to these bollards.  Clearly this is a big safety issue, and ironically it exists because of "safe" tarmac runoffs.

Right, if it was grass they wouldn't be thinking "oh I'm going to lock a wheel, I'll straighten up and keep my momentum". They don't seem to have these problems in T2 at Melbourne. 

It was also too open so that a driver could potentially fall foul of the rule without even being aware of having done so.  Is it fair for a driver to be forced to make a split second call to take a self imposed (and as we saw potentially highly risky/dangerous) detour round the bollards, whilst not even sure that they had been in breach?  

Are you suggesting that drivers don't know when they are 5 or 6 metres off the actual track?  If so, then perhaps they shouldn't be allowed in racing cars.

The bollards are not the problem, the problem is drivers trying to go through them too fast. Or completely ignoring them.

 

The question is what to do with drivers who so blatantly and so often ignore the rules. Such reckless driving outside the track as we saw today should not be acceptable. The FIA is much too lenient with penalties.

Thank you.  The voice of reason.  Drivers go off largely of their own volition by trying to take the corner too fast.  Then they screw up trying to re-enter the track at racing speed.  Nobody's fault but their own.  Carlos, you screwed up.  Admit it and move on.   

One solution is to require drivers in this situation to come to a full-stop and wait for permission to re-join.  Mysteriously, the problem would never then occur...

Whatever. His mistake was colossal and it may have cost McLaren the third place in WCC.

McLaren team, the bad strategy calls and their pitstop blunders have cost him far more points

1. Put tarmac runoff everywhere, because safety

2. Put (sausage) kerbs/bollards everywhere that launch cars to the air, break suspensions, and cut tires, because you too incompetent to enforce track limits

3. End result is even more dangerous than grass or gravel

Splendid job by the FIA, as usual

Edited by DaddyCool, 27 September 2020 - 19:49.

Short of a major redesign of the corner, I guess it would only take a gravel trap or similar in a configuration like this to fix the problem.

Keep the firing line clear and have an escape road round that back which would actually force drivers to slow down if they want to overshoot and rejoin.

Somehow the FIA made it possible to pretty much floor it through the escape road past the concrete wall, provided you go at it from the right angle. 

That's insane, it's supposed to slow you down and it invites incidents like these.

It doesn't excuse Sainz in any way as it's overly stupid to crash out like this, however the root cause I think was the stupid design of the escape road.

Are you suggesting that drivers don't know when they are 5 or 6 metres off the actual track?  If so, then perhaps they shouldn't be allowed in racing cars.

 

 

No, I'm saying that the rule cannot distinguish between a driver who is 5 or six metres off the track and one who is 5mm (only detected by sensors) off the track.  It allows no distinction between a driver who makes no effort at all to take the corner properly and one who does but fails by minute margins (and might not be aware of it).

The interesting thing is that Verstappen had the skill to go through the tiniest of gaps at full chat.

Sainz got it marginally wrong.

Grosjean got it hopelessly wrong.

But I'm astounded there's no talk of punishment for Sainz.  That was grotesque.  He could have torpedoed half the pack. 

An interesting excuse.

It's not my fault for missing the corner and then driving into a wall attempting to rejoin. It's the corner's fault for existing!

that's not quite what he said. He acknowledged that it was his mistake. This however doesnt mean that the corner (and the way the FIA decided to police it there) deserves to be let off the hook.

Sainz made a huge mistake torpedoing the barrier. I think his comments are worthless here.

Sochi has an unusual start line straight with good draft available at the start. 

Turn 2 and 3 combination provides an interesting switchback and turn 4 is an unusual corner/straight with a hard braking zone to turn 5. I think its a brilliant sequence of corners.

The interesting thing is that Verstappen had the skill to go through the tiniest of gaps at full chat.

Sainz got it marginally wrong.

Grosjean got it hopelessly wrong.

But I'm astounded there's no talk of punishment for Sainz. That was grotesque. He could have torpedoed half the pack.

Edited by smitten, 27 September 2020 - 20:48.

Carlos Sainz has been racing here since 2013 and he chooses the day he crashes into turn 2 before he announces to the world it shouldn’t exist? Hard to give his comments any credibility. Ferrari must see something many of us don’t. 

My solution in two steps:
1) put a concrete wall on the outside of turn 2
2) never go back racing at that place.

It's pretty obvious to me that he just means it shouldn't exist in its current design, and imho he's right.

It's pretty s**t.

that's not quite what he said. He acknowledged that it was his mistake. This however doesnt mean that the corner (and the way the FIA decided to police it there) deserves to be let off the hook.

I just don't see anything wrong here. You are a race car driver. Make the corner that is in front of you, or don't. It's your decision and it's the reason you have the job....not me. If you come in too hot to negotiate a corner, and then proceed to drive like a clown afterwards, that's on you.

Edited by ARTGP, 27 September 2020 - 21:51.

It's pretty obvious to me that he just means it shouldn't exist in its current design, and imho he's right.

 

It's pretty s**t.

A corner is a corner and the driver is responsible for negotiating the turns before him.  If he can't manage that, the consequences are on him.

A corner is a corner and the driver is responsible for negotiating the turns before him.  If he can't manage that, the consequences are on him.

Oh I agree they all have to drive the track that's there and the accident is on him. That doesn't change or invalidate my opinion and a lot of other people's opinion that it's a terribly designed corner.

And I might have missed it but I didn't see where he shrugged off responsibility for the accident. He admitted more than once that he got it wrong.

Oh I agree they all have to drive the track that's there and the accident is on him. That doesn't change or invalidate my opinion and a lot of other people's opinion that it's a terribly designed corner.

 

And I might have missed it but I didn't see where he shrugged off responsibility for the accident. He admitted more than once that he got it wrong.

There are plenty of terribly designed corners in F1.  Most final corners in Formula 1 are god awful and prevent racing on the main straight. 

I doubt Sainz would have had much to say about it, if he didn't have such a silly acident.

that's not quite what he said. He acknowledged that it was his mistake. This however doesnt mean that the corner (and the way the FIA decided to police it there) deserves to be let off the hook.

Yeah even early in the weekend it was pretty obvious that the bollard/gate solution was dangerous. And for drivers who missed that sausage kerb farther down the road, like RIC and GRO, it was much too far over to the left to be able to alter course quickly enough to get there safely, as one demonstrated by not even making the attempt, and the other demonstrated by attempting and failing, because it was damn near impossible. It was very poorly thought out, seemingly with video game logic, where physics don't apply.

There are plenty of terribly designed corners in F1.  Most final corners in Formula 1 are god awful and prevent racing on the main straight. 

 

I doubt Sainz would have had much to say about it, if he didn't have such a silly acident.

OK? Other bad corners existing doesn't invalid anyone's opinion that this corner is s**t. I'm sure if almost any driver had an incident at any corner they thought was poorly designed and didn't belong, and then a mic was stuck in their face as it inevitably would be, they might express an opinion on the corner. 

I just don't see what he said here that's so controversial. Is he not allowed an opinion on the corner, just because he got it wrong?

Yep, pretty much it. Reminds me a little bit of the tunnel exit at Monte Carlo or of Monza’s first chicane. It’s not the circuit’s fault if you made a (really stupid) steering error.

Now, if you want to speak about circuit faults, we can speak about Monte Carlo’s big bump just before the Casino hairpin. That bump is been there like forever, in the middle of the track; I seem to remember it there even in the 90s. Everybody avoids it and yet nobody does anything to elliminate it. Is it some sort of historical landmark or something?

It's the crown of an intersection with a side street. 

A corner is a corner and the driver is responsible for negotiating the turns before him.  If he can't manage that, the consequences are on him.

But if umpteen sausage kerbs and various lines and bollards and polystyrene blocks are required to ensure no advantage is gained when a driver has an off (with very mixed results!) then it's probably worth them having a look at the design of T1/T2 along with the run-off area.  It's teh same thing every year. 

Why was a solid concrete wall left unprotected?  There was plenty of protection along the wall, except the final 10 metres where Sainz hit it.  So much for track safety.

Why was a solid concrete wall left unprotected?  There was plenty of protection along the wall, except the final 10 metres where Sainz hit it.  So much for track safety.

Yeah and I can't remember what part of the track, but I noticed quite a bit of exposed concrete wall earlier in the weekend.

Short of a major redesign of the corner, I guess it would only take a gravel trap or similar in a configuration like this to fix the problem.

 

 

Keep the firing line clear and have an escape road round that back which would actually force drivers to slow down if they want to overshoot and rejoin.

Perfect.  Do it, Sochi!

Keep the gravel close to the wall to force an acute enough angle that it's impossible to gain an advantage.

Aston Martin GT driver Nicki Thiim doesn't hide what he thinks of the whole thing (he finds it hilarious)...

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