Merc v RB - Which is the fastest car?

Edited by Speedometer, 07 June 2021 - 15:30.

Depends on the track, weather (mostly temperature), and the tires Pirelli have designated for the weekend. Seems to me, similar to the 2007/8 McLaren/Ferrari battles in that respect. As Playboy above has said, Red Bull have had the edge so far.

Depends of the track, temperature and tyres.

Imola, Montecarlo and Baku = Red Bull.

Barcelona and Portimao = Mercedes.

Bahrein = Equal.

Low Temperature = Red Bull.

High Temperature = Mercedes.

Softer Tyres = Red Bull.

Harder Tyres = Mercedes.

Of course I could be wrong but that's how I see the season.

In qualifying Red Bull was quicker in Bahrain (not by much either), Imola probably too, the rest was too close to call (although it looks like Merc had to sacrifice race pace for good Monaco/Baku qualis), so overall advantage to them.

Races are so far more in Mercedes favour. Spain and Portugal outright, Imola probably, Bahrain was 50/50. Baku and Monaco to Red Bull. But the issue is here that those are the most outlier tracks, so probably not very representative, and over the course of the season Merc will likely have the upper hand much more often in races.

So my conclusion is that so far Red Bull had the quicker car, and without misfortune they actually would have a pretty comfy lead due to making less mistakes on race day. But most of their advantage came on less representative tracks, so I expect it to vanish.

What will be very interesting to see is what roles the tyres play: Mercedes was excellent on the hardest tyres. They are not going to be used too often. If the Barcelona/Portimao was down to the fact that this car is amazing on C1 tyres those performance may have actually not been as representative as we thought. Another factor is what happens with the flyaway races: Those are usually in warm conditions, if they get cancelled and replaced by then-cold European venues it would play into Red Bull hands.

Neither is objectively faster in the general sense. It varies from circuit to circuit, which is fantastic.

Neither is objectively faster in the general sense. It varies from circuit to circuit, which is fantastic.

It might vary from circuit to circuit but there is certainly a trend. As is usually the case with these comparisons, an overall picture emerges. We've had enough races now for that picture to emerge.

The trend is that it swings from circuit to circuit, qualifying to race, and tire to tire is it not?  You said above that you felt the RB is trending to performance advantage which seems a bit a contradictory?  Since Monaco/Baku are street circuits and we do not have any more of those on the calendar, we are still only working with the data from Bahrain/ Imola/ Portugal and Spain. and to me neither team was clearly ahead of the other in every type of condition. In those aforementioned races, Mercedes was always better on the harder race tire (even in qualifying), while Red bull was better on the softer tire in qualifying.

If we want to have a discussion of which car has the "peak" performance on low fuel and softest compound available, I give the slight edge to Red Bull. But the overall fastest car needs to be faster than the others over a full race stint, not just qualifying otherwise Ferrari would have bagged the titles in 2019.

Edited by ARTGP, 07 June 2021 - 04:46.

The trend is that it swings from circuit to circuit, qualifying to race, and tire to tire is it not? You said above that you felt the RB is trending to performance advantage which seems a bit a contradictory?

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 07 June 2021 - 05:11.

RB definitely has a wider operating window. It has been quick every weekend. Merc has looked awful past 2 races

Second best car (at worst) = Awful? 

In Monaco you could argue that RB Merc and Ferrari were all 3 closely matched but still, Merc has never been "awful" since 2013.

Red Bull so far but it's still quite track dependent due to the different strengths and weaknesses of each car. It's been quite a long time since we've had this kind of situation, 2012 and 2017 spring to mind.  It's going to come back to Mercedes over the next few races and you'll probably hear a few planks stating Mercedes is still fastest and easily ahead. Truth is you can't realistically hope for two different cars with different design philosophies to be as closely matched over a season as this years Red Bull and Mercedes.

When you factor in the budget cap too and the push for next years new cars it's highly unlikely one team is going to bring something to their car that allows them any real breathing space to the other. This is between Max, Lewis and how well their teams can navigate through each race weekend. I feel like we should all be appreciating this a little more for what it is given there's usually an outright fastest car in most F1 seasons.

Second best car (at worst) = Awful?
In Monaco you could argue that RB Merc and Ferrari were all 3 closely matched but still, Merc has never been "awful" since 2013.

At Imola Mercedes definitely had the faster race package, Hamilton was catching Max pretty easily as soon as he got heat in his tyres and he was flying after that red flag on a dry track. Toto said so as well and if even Toto says Mercedes have the fastest car you can almost guarantee it's true.

So:

Red Bull

Bahrain (based on big qualy gap, race not that clear)

Monaco

Baku

Mercedes

Imola

Portimao

Barcelona

Whether a car could have gone a tenth quicker in qualifying I find not that interesting and telling (except for Monaco), how good the car is in the race is what matters.

It will be close  I am sure but I expect Mercedes will be the car to beat on the coming tracks and weeks at least.

Bahrain RB

Imola IDK

Portugal Mercedes

Spain Mercedes absolutely dominant

Monaco RB

Baku RB

I think people are looking at Hamilton's performance at Monaco, but a Mercedes set up in a way the driver was comfortable with it in Bottas's hands was basically on a par with Red Bull.

In Monaco, Bottas qualy time was close to Verstappen's, but the car was nowhere near in the race, losing ground and chewing its tyres. Had Bottas not suffered the pitstop problem, he would have been overcut by Sainz and probably by Norris.

Bahrain had the Honda's detuned for the race because of vibration issues in FP and Q (components were changed as well). I don't know if those are cleared now? It seemed the ran detuned up until Monaco, because the straightline performance in Spain and Portugal was quite poor from RB and AT. Verstappen didn't even come close to Bottas while he even had DRS. Yet in Baku, they seemed fine to haul the car over the long straight.

Second I think the harder tire range favors Mercedes and the softer ones favor Red Bull. Expect Silverstone, Zandvoort and Suzuka to favor Mercedes at least.

Hamilton is quite lucky he is so close to Verstappen in the standings. With Imola and a 'normal' Baku, he could have been about 30 points adrift.

I think it has been pretty even overall. Though after Barcelona I was convinced Mercedes would run away with it again. Merc at their best tracks have looked clearly more dominant than Red Bull at theirs.

Edited by Jovanotti, 07 June 2021 - 08:28.

After first 4 races I had thought that Mercedes was a slightly quicker car but after what happened in Monaco and Baku it appears that Red Bull has a more consistent package across a variety of tracks and conditions. 

The thing is that we only had a few 'normal' tracks.

Bahrein, Imola and Barcelona.

The others are more peculiar imo. If you factor in the balance problems in Bahrein for Mercedes where they didn't get the floor & set-up right yet, Mercedes looks to be a bit better on 'standard' tracks. 

But it is a clear moving target. If the Red Bull and Mercedes of 7 June 2021 would run again at Imola for instance, the competitive order might be different because of some smaller and bigger aero updates and a better set-up etc. 

but a Mercedes set up in a way the driver was comfortable with it in Bottas's hands was basically on a par with Red Bull.

Not on Sunday it was.

Quali:

Bahrain: Red Bull 

Imola: Red Bull ( Max bottled his quali lap )

Portimao: Mercedes

Spain: Mercedes

Monaco: Similar ( Bottas was very competitive in quali )

Baku: Red Bull ( Great quali from Hamilton and Max didn't have a second run )

Race:

Bahrain: Red Bull ( Red Bull were still faster in race but bad strategy and track limits controversy cost them )

Imola: Mercedes ( I believe Mercedes had the best car in race day, in both wet and dry )

Portimao: Mercedes

Spain: Mercedes

Monaco: Red Bull

Baku: Red Bull

In total:

I would say:

Red Bull: Bahrain, Monaco, Baku

Mercedes: Imola, Portimao, Spain

However, Max had a misfortune with tyre failure in Baku so only leads by 4 points despite being the better driver so far this season.

I fear this thread will get filled with too many biased views based on who they support.

There are of course two aspects to fastest car, ie, fastest in qualifying and/or fastest race car. The most important day to have the fastest car is race day and nowadays the fastest raceday car is the one that is quickest down the straights AND is better on it's tyres. The races so far have provided good indicators and as usual there have been opposing views and the usual 'spin' and to state how the races will pan out from now on is pure speculation. I have always said F1 is all about the car so it should be no suprise that the winning car at any race is the best car that day (**), even Merc fans say it's all about the car when a Red Bull car wins . So far we have had swings between RB and Merc which is very refreshing and has made for a great F1 year so far, I hope it continues.

** Except Bahrain where Hamilton's driving and Merc's strategy won the day and excepting Imola where the fastest car didn't win.

I fear this thread will get filled with too many biased views based on who they support.

The posts sofar don't support your view, they seem pretty balanced.

The posts sofar don't support your view, they seem pretty balanced.

You are right, they do. Nice to see. We'll see if the thread remains so warm, friendly and lacking bias

Edited by rf90, 07 June 2021 - 09:45.

That's another discussion we cannot have on this board (as driver vs driver threads are not allowed when it does not concern team mates). 

towards the end of the season if the championship is still open this was allowed in the past FWIW

On that note it's kinda interesting to me that Max and Lewis are both doing the opposite of what I expected. I expected Lewis to be unspectacular with only a couple of tiny mistakes, especially in qualifying, and Max to be the one that has bigger highlights but more blunders. It's been the other way around so far: not saying that one is better than the other in general (although given the small sample size of race we had blunders do weight much heavier at this stage, so Max has definitely done a better job so far), but it's a interesting observation regardless, even if this may change again.

towards the end of the season if the championship is still open this was allowed in the past FWIW

On that note it's kinda interesting to me that Max and Lewis are both doing the opposite of what I expected. I expected Lewis to be unspectacular with only a couple of tiny mistakes, especially in qualifying, and Max to be the one that has bigger highlights but more blunders. It's been the other way around so far: not saying that one is better than the other in general (although given the small sample size of race we had blunders do weight much heavier at this stage, so Max has definitely done a better job so far), but it's a interesting observation regardless, even if this may change again.

Max did have two quite aggressive starts though.

I think they're probably much of a muchness, looking at the respective performances of Perez and Bottas. Which is brilliant for the title fight. 

My worry is that when we get to a run of more 'traditional' type circuits, that's Mercedes territorry especially based on their Barcelona domination. 

The fastest car is only as fast as a driver can drive it, so the topic of this thread is a moot point IMO. It’s all about the fastest package, that is driver and car, I’d also even add the team and strategists. The RBR is a very fast car at the moment, not only in Max’s hands but now Checo as well. The Merc is not the fastest in VB’s hand but LH is somehow there or thereabouts on race day - he makes the difference.

As of today, I’d put my money on the LH/Merc package as the fastest package with Max very close behind.

The fastest car is only as fast as a driver can drive it, so the topic of this thread is a moot point IMO. It’s all about the fastest package, that is driver and car, I’d also even add the team and strategists. The RBR is a very fast car at the moment, not only in Max’s hands but now Checo as well. The Merc is not the fastest in VB’s hand but LH is somehow there or thereabouts on race day - he makes the difference.

 

As of today, I’d put my money on the LH/Merc package as the fastest package with Max very close behind.

The Merc package was pretty fast in Bottas' hands prior to Monaco and Baku. And reversely, Perez was nowhere to be found before Baku. 

I don't think it's a good idea to base your entire view of the balance of power on 1 race. 

I do wonder if Merc will (or may have started thus) put all focus on Hamilton's car from now on and Bottas will have to make do with what he gets. I assume that will also help in cost-cap terms. Merc I am sure value the WDC more than the WCC this particular year.

I think RB has the faster car - Merc is where RB were last year, chasing the speed each week whereas the RB looks to have it more out of the box.

Don't think there is any way to prove it, it is an opinion - but that's how I perceive it.

I do wonder if Merc will (or may have started thus) put all focus on Hamilton's car from now on and Bottas will have to make do with what he gets. I assume that will also help in cost-cap terms. Merc I am sure value the WDC more than the WCC this particular year.

well, they didnt had a single real upgrade this year, so rather doubful. They seem to attempt to pull through this season without affecting the 2022 development.

Plus they definitely need Bottas up there for strategy options.

well, they didnt had a single real upgrade this year, so rather doubful. They seem to attempt to pull through this season without affecting the 2022 development.

Plus they definitely need Bottas up there for strategy options.

Yes, very true. Mine is only a gut feeling so accept it can be seen as a load of codswallop.

Red Bull so far but it's still quite track dependent due to the different strengths and weaknesses of each car. It's been quite a long time since we've had this kind of situation, 2012 and 2017 spring to mind.  It's going to come back to Mercedes over the next few races and you'll probably hear a few planks stating Mercedes is still fastest and easily ahead. Truth is you can't realistically hope for two different cars with different design philosophies to be as closely matched over a season as this years Red Bull and Mercedes.

 

When you factor in the budget cap too and the push for next years new cars it's highly unlikely one team is going to bring something to their car that allows them any real breathing space to the other. This is between Max, Lewis and how well their teams can navigate through each race weekend. I feel like we should all be appreciating this a little more for what it is given there's usually an outright fastest car in most F1 seasons.

Absolutely this 

Taking a step back it looks to me that Mercedes has regressed more than Red Bull having made inroads. The entire field seems much closer this year, with Ferrari, McLaren and even Aston Martin, Alpine and AlphaTauri genuinely in the mix at times. The gap from Red Bull to the midfield seems comparable to last year, but Mercedes have been reeled in somewhat. It looks like they are still hurting from the loss of rear downforce due to the new floor regulations a little. I think we should all just enjoy this season as much as we can, because with next year's reset it may be the closest racing we see for a good while.

Probably the red bull is quickest all things considered., but its circuit/tyre/temps dependent.

The way I see it, Mercedes just took a little longer to understand their car and unlock its potential at the beginning.  And most of the differences have revolved around how they treat their tyres.  The pattern for me in the early races was Red Bull being able to generate heat into them more quickly, which favoured qualifying, while Merc have shown stronger (and crucially, longer) race pace, which has given them better strategic options.  But after the first couple of races Merc started to close the gap in qualifying, while keeping their long-term tyre advantage.  I think on normal circuits there's not much to choose between them now over a single lap, while I still have concerns over Red Bull's long term tyre wear.

Monaco and Baku were clear outliers for me, especially given that at both circuits Merc experienced huge setup issues. Monaco's harder to tell, I feel, because there didn't seem to be anything wrong with Bottas during qualifyiing, but given that his performances are more variable than Hamilton's it's hard to say for sure which Bottas we saw there.  And although he seemed to use up his tyres quicker there he tends to do so much quicker than Hamilton anyway, so again it's hard to be completely sure.  I'm inclined to call that one equal on that basis - raw speed was there.  

In Baku RB definitely looked the better overall package.  You could easily see where the difference was, too: Merc gained on the long straight while Red Bull were better in the extremely tight sections.  Hamilton being a generally more reliable benchmark than Bottas I'd say that was probably more representative than Monaco.  However, there is the caveat that in qualifying Hamilton still looked plenty quick, even without a slipstream, and RB never matched him throughout qualifying.  As he was behind Perez for much of the race, not completely sure how he would have fared given clear air.  Certainly at the beginning he had a much easier time flying by Leclerc than Max did, but against that his relatively early stop suggests he wasn't managing to conserve the tyres very well (unless they were worried about an undercut?). In any event, the extreme nature of the circuit, in both having the longest straight favouring raw grunt and the arguably tightest section on the calendar, makes it a very different experience to most other tracks so not sure we can use it to gauge future performance.

I suspect (barring updates) that at the next track we will see Merc overtaking Red Bull and regaining their position pre-Monaco.  Although RB looked to have better tyre management here, I'm not convinced that will carry over to the upcoming tracks, especially with the weather getting warmer.  Hope I'm wrong because I feel that's their very big Achilles heel, but my expectation is that they will be chasing Merc for the next few races, not setting the pace.

On tracks which suit their car, RB are clearly ahead. On tracks which suit Merc then they're more or less equal imo. I don't see anything so far to show Merc have been clearly ahead on any of the tracks so far.

In Spain and Portimao they were clearly faster on Sunday,

Depends of the track, temperature and tyres.

 

Imola, Montecarlo and Baku = Red Bull.

 

Barcelona and Portimao = Mercedes.

 

Bahrein = Equal.

 

Low Temperature = Red Bull.

 

High Temperature = Mercedes.

 

Softer Tyres = Red Bull.

 

Harder Tyres = Mercedes.

 

Of course I could be wrong but that's how I see the season.

I generally agree with this, although it seemed like Mercedes were quicker in Imola as it dried out, Hamilton was constantly lapping quicker than Max (of course Max could have been managing).

Overall I would say in qualifying, due to Red Bull getting heat in their tyres more easily, they have been up there everywhere and likely will continue to be over the course of the season. Mercedes seem a bit more hit and miss at circuits without fast/medium speed corners. But both Hamilton and Bottas were up there at Portimao and Barcelona which suits the car.

Harder tyres and fast sweeping corners are perfect for Mercedes, particularly in the race, as we saw with Hamilton's pace in Barcelona.

Looking at the next several races, France should be perfect for Mercedes, they absolutely dominated there in 2019 as well. Red Bull, mainly Max, will likely challenge in qualifying as he has done all season but Mercedes will be firm favourites for the race. Hamilton win likely.

Austria should be a bit more even, I guess it could go either way. Then Silverstone should be advantage Mercedes again, especially with the harder tyre compounds.

In the era of Pirelli tyres, the question most appropriate is which car handles the tyres better? So far Red Bull are better in that department, but as others have pointed out, it is circuit dependent. 

They have been pretty evenly matched over the first 6 races. The pattern I saw was that the Mercedes has been faster on the non-street circuits and this is my expectation for most of the rest of the season. The Mercedes has also been trickier to get into the tyre window, so I hope this gives RBR some chances to stick with them.

The way I saw it

Qualifying:

Bahrain: Red Bull

Imola: Red Bull

Portimao: Mercedes

Spain: Mercedes

Monaco: No idea

Baku: Red Bull

Race pace:

Bahrain: Mercedes

Imola: No idea

Portimao: Mercedes

Spain: Mercedes

Monaco: Red Bull

Baku: Red Bull