Hamilton / Verstappen - (Lap 37 Turn 1 Battle)

I would like to know and see the opinions of others forum members about this incident.

For me, it was pretty clear that the move Verstappen did to defend or we could say try to regain that position, was a Interlagos 2.0 move.

Edited by Boxerevo, 06 December 2021 - 04:12.

Yes, Max moves around a lot under brakes.

Yes, it's apparently acceptable.

No, it shouldn't be. 

There's a lot of driving standards crap to sort out over the break, this included. 

I haven't watched the race but wasn't Max asked to hand this place back?

The fact his own team told him to give up the spot means this is an easy argument to resolve. 

I'd hope. 

The fact his own team told him to give up the spot means this is an easy argument to resolve. 

 

I'd hope. 

But the "same" move in Brazil was ok.

How we will get consistency about these moves? Is this really let them race?

And if the guy on the outside try to do the turn, who is the main responsible for the crash?

The same move in Brazil was not OK as well. The FIA should have stamped it out then (or 15 years earlier), but I hope the stewards keep doling out penalties going forward.

If the guy outside tries to make the turn and crashes, it is the inside guy's fault.

His action at the first restart was much worse as this imho. Here it seemed to me that Max lost traction on his rear right tyre because he was braking too late and in particular also an effect of braking whilst turning in to an apex. Max is not a late braker: that's not his driving style, yet in this case he is clearly braking later as Lewis because Lewis car was ahead of him when Lewis started to brake so Max decided to brake later as Lewis to defend but because of that he couldn't possibly make the apex anymore and he was starting to lose traction on his rear tyres, almost hitting or maybe even slightly hitting Lewis car as a result. So for me it's a clear driving error from Max: he couldn't safely make the apex anymore but it's nowhere as bad as what he did on that restart.

Edited by William Hunt, 06 December 2021 - 04:50.

I find it to be shambolic racecraft - and I don't blame Max as such because there hasn't been strict enough policing. If, based on precedent, he thinks he can get away with blocking passes by appearing to be alongside or ahead by overshooting the corner with no more than a half-hearted intention to keep the car on the road, forcing the other car to take evading action in also leaving the track, then he'll do it.

It is funny that he complains about the penalty also on the basis of both cars leaving the track when the whole reason Lewis also went off track is because  there'd have been a potentially race-ending collision if he hadn't. Top grade rubbish in the presser post-race, no doubt.

It's up to the powers that be to start clamping down on brutish and unfair racing tactics.

Verstappen nowhere near the apex.....oh, wait.....is that even a thing any more?

Notice how he takes the run off correctly here, whereas at the first restart he deliberately bundled over the kerb and cut in front of Hamilton to hinder him, which wasn't even investigated.

That was far worse than the incident in the OP IMO..

Edited by cpbell, 06 December 2021 - 11:20.

Verstappen nowhere near the apex.....oh, wait.....is that even a thing any more?

Good point!

If there were meaningful runoffs, rather than acres of Tarmac, braking too late to make the corner yourself would mean taking yourself out of the race as well. Problem solved.

Notice how he takes the run off correctly here, whereas at the first restart he deliberately bundled over the kerb and cut in front of Hamilton to hinder him, which wasn't even investigated.

Edited by TomNokoe, 06 December 2021 - 11:29.

Precisely. The first image above shows two separate incidents, both of which warranted action: firstly, leaving the track and gaining an advantage; secondly, unsafely rejoining the circuit. The first could have been resolved through swapping positions, but the second deserved a separate penalty.

Edited by Muppetmad, 06 December 2021 - 11:31.

Lol





And the first one was at much slower speed, with him in full control throughout.

This was correctly punished with 5 sec. Which only brings more question marks on Brasil!

The one after the first restart should have been 5 sec as well, but Massi preferred the bargaining… his radios with Red Bull are a shame for the sport.

The third one was punished with 10 sec.

So we have a driver who: 

- Had three penalties for dangerous wheel to wheel driving in the last race 

- Crashed in the last Q3

- Ignored yellow flags in the previous Q3

- Had another dangerous W2W two races ago (should have been punished if the same criteria was applied)

-Was shown a black and white flag for dangerous driving (waving) two races ago

This makes it 6 infringements in the last 3 races, plus the Q crash. Yet his team is telling him all is OK, he is doing great and no need to change his behaviour. And Max himself doesn’t seem to accept any blame. He also doesn’t seem to accept he can be overtaken by the outside, or at all. 

If Max provokes a title deciding accident in the last race, will anyone be surprised?

How can we expect him to grow as a driver and reveal his huge potential in a clean and sportsman way if he is encouraged to continue on the “dark side” by his own team, his mentors, his father?

I would like to know and see the opinions of others forum members about this incident.

 

 

 

 

For me, it was pretty clear that the move Verstappen did to defend or we could say try to regain that position, was a Interlagos 2.0 move.

 

 

It actually reminds me of Monza lap 1 (turn 4/5), difference being the gravel pit.

If you believe Hamilton wouldnt have done the exact same thing if the roles had been reversed you are delusional.

Edited by Kao18, 06 December 2021 - 11:36.

Obviously the same as what he did in Brazil. For a top level driver he makes a lot of mistakes. Almost as if they're not mistakes.

Verstappen nowhere near the apex.....oh, wait.....is that even a thing any more?

If you're talking about 1st corner apex then he's much closer than LH on the first restart. You can draw lines if you want.

As much as I don't like this kind of defending it is unfortunately de facto standard in F1 now. Especially for drivers who are bringing views and excitement to the sport. He did get deserved penalty for it, but I am not sure if it will ever be enough.

I have no issues with this as long as the position is given back afterwards. This isn't like Brazil where he came from way back on a tight line into a high speed corner. Here he was almost completely alongside going into the braking zone of a slow corner and just broke a tiny bit too late. It's really the move on the restart where he tried to go around the outside, then cut the track and rejoined unsafely that was the bad one. Dropping back to third probably wasn't enough punishment for that one

This was correctly punished with 5 sec. Which only brings more question marks on Brasil!

 

The one after the first restart should have been 5 sec as well, but Massi preferred the bargaining… his radios with Red Bull are a shame for the sport.

The third one was punished with 10 sec.

 

So we have a driver who: 

- Had three penalties for dangerous wheel to wheel driving in the last race 

- Crashed in the last Q3

- Ignored yellow flags in the previous Q3

- Had another dangerous W2W two races ago (should have been punished if the same criteria was applied)

-Was shown a black and white flag for dangerous driving (waving) two races ago

 

This makes it 6 infringements in the last 3 races, plus the Q crash. Yet his team is telling him all is OK, he is doing great and no need to change his behaviour. And Max himself doesn’t seem to accept any blame. He also doesn’t seem to accept he can be overtaken by the outside, or at all. 

 

If Max provokes a title deciding accident in the last race, will anyone be surprised?

 

How can we expect him to grow as a driver and reveal his huge potential in a clean and sportsman way if he is encouraged to continue on the “dark side” by his own team, his mentors, his father?

How many reprimands has he got? If he hasn't received any for yesterday's terrible antics then there is something seriously wrong with this sport.

It actually reminds me of Monza lap 1 (turn 4/5), difference being the gravel pit.

 

If you believe Hamilton wouldnt have done the exact same thing if the roles had been reversed you are delusional.

Max does that move regularly, Lewis never does it. You are delusional.

Max doesn't have the quickest car any more so he'll try anything and then just hope he doesn't get punished. Arguably that's worth a punt, because he's rarely been punished for questionable behaviour throughout his career.

Lewis better hope for a Mercedes front row lockout next weekend and that they both scamper off. If they are anywhere near each other on track we all know exactly what max will do.

It actually reminds me of Monza lap 1 (turn 4/5), difference being the gravel pit.

If you believe Hamilton wouldnt have done the exact same thing if the roles had been reversed you are delusional.

He keot the place by going off the track so it was right that he was penalised after failing to give the place back. Not particularly remarkable though, it happens a lot.

 Not particularly remarkable though, it happens a lot.

But somewhat thematically with Verstappen's 'defending'

He keot the place by going off the track so it was right that he was penalised after failing to give the place back. Not particularly remarkable though, it happens a lot.

And yet he did the exact same thing in Brazil and wasn't penalised.

For me this incident was the one that got swept under the carpet and required more attention by the stewards as Max seems to be getting away with it on a regular basis. The intent is there to see, to defend his position by any means possible. Drivers have been penalised for much less but he has a carte blanche to do what he wants. I'm glad he was finally called out yesterday for it by Martin Brundle who I feel was being a little too kind to him until recently.

And yet he did the exact same thing in Brazil and wasn't penalised.

Yeah, they should have ordered him to give the place up in Brazil too.

As a a one-off I'd put it down to hard racing that spilled over, but it's too much of a repeat pattern that it seems to be the adopted tactic to not pay heed to the track at all whilst attempting to pass or maintain position.

This was correctly punished with 5 sec. Which only brings more question marks on Brasil!

 

The one after the first restart should have been 5 sec as well, but Massi preferred the bargaining… his radios with Red Bull are a shame for the sport.

The third one was punished with 10 sec.

 

So we have a driver who: 

- Had three penalties for dangerous wheel to wheel driving in the last race 

- Crashed in the last Q3

- Ignored yellow flags in the previous Q3

- Had another dangerous W2W two races ago (should have been punished if the same criteria was applied)

-Was shown a black and white flag for dangerous driving (waving) two races ago

 

This makes it 6 infringements in the last 3 races, plus the Q crash. Yet his team is telling him all is OK, he is doing great and no need to change his behaviour. And Max himself doesn’t seem to accept any blame. He also doesn’t seem to accept he can be overtaken by the outside, or at all. 

 

If Max provokes a title deciding accident in the last race, will anyone be surprised?

 

How can we expect him to grow as a driver and reveal his huge potential in a clean and sportsman way if he is encouraged to continue on the “dark side” by his own team, his mentors, his father?

 

Have you noticed Horners comments: ‘Sector 1 is more driver focused and the sector 2 and 3 is more about the engine. Anyone can drive in a straight line’

Edited by Freo, 06 December 2021 - 11:46.

Have you noticed Horners comments: ‘Sector 1 is more driver focused and the sector 2 and 3 is more about the engine. Anyone can drive in a straight line’

Lol that was funny. Sector 1 is more downforce and mechanical grip focussed. Anyone can drive quicker around there with stickier tyres and more downforce.

If any other driver did all this things already discussed in a race in the middle of the season he would've been dsq. By not interfering in the title fight, the stewards, Masi, Fia whatever are actually interfering.

Well, quite. Choosing not to act sufficiently is itself a form of interference.

happens when you design parking lots without grass and/or gravel

Have you noticed Horners comments: ‘Sector 1 is more driver focused and the sector 2 and 3 is more about the engine. Anyone can drive in a straight line’

Very poor from Horner, especially after the almighty beating they got in Qatar.

It vindicates that they got the Brazil decision wrong.  Something that they stubornly refused to concede back then despite having the opportunity to correct it when Mercedes appealed due to new evidence.

The fact that now the move is not OK just gives you a little insight into the FIA race director/stewardship mentality.

Lol that was funny. Sector 1 is more downforce and mechanical grip focussed. Anyone can drive quicker around there with stickier tyres and more downforce.

Ha- that was a weirdly tetchy exchange post-race by Horner.  The Red Bull was fastest thourgh S1 in quali; Max by 0.021 over his teammate.  His teammate lost more in the 'anybody can drive straight' sections (should we question parity of engines between Red Bull teammates then?), and Max also binned it in one of those sectors that according to the wisdom of Horner, should be dismissed.

TBF to Max, the FIA told him it was perfectly ok as he did the exact same thing in brazil and it wasn't deemed worthy of investigation.

Ha- that was a weirdly tetchy exchange post-race by Horner. The Red Bull was fastest thourgh S1 in quali; Max by 0.021 over his teammate. His teammate lost more in the 'anybody can drive straight' sections (should we question parity of engines between Red Bull teammates then?), and Max also binned it in one of those sectors that according to the wisdom of Horner, should be dismissed.

Honestly, I'm looking forward to Max vs Leclerc title fights. Let's hope next year both Ferrari and Red Bull deliver them top cars because I expect their unyielding style will result in endless drama

If Ferrari are back on the pace next year (and it becomes a three way fight) then Max's strategy of constantly getting into trouble won't work as well, because he'll be diluting his own points twice as often as his competitors (assuming he runs them both off the road should they dare to overtake him).

happens when you design parking lots without grass and/or gravel

With the way Max was driving yesterday, I doubt it would have been different with Grass/Gravel in this case I fear...

If anything would have just increased his odds that Lewis would have risked a crash. 

I dont want to blame design in this instance. 

I'd like to have seen if Max would have still outbraked himself if there was a gravel trap there. It seems he'd rather crash off the track than allow an overtake.