Mick Schumacher: The road to F1 (Split)

Piastri would be hired mainly because of his talent, the titles he won and the speed he showed. Latifi was not hired because of that, neither is it the reason why Zhou, Schumacher & Stroll have their seat. That's the main difference and why some are pay drivers and some are not considered to be so

Schumacher did win F3 and F2 championships....

Schumacher did win F3 and F2 championships....

Yeah I don't know why people group Schumacher in as a pay driver that won nothing in the junior categories. Regardless of his current performances in F1, he more than deserved an F1 opportunity based off the titles he won in F2/3.

Schumacher did win F3 and F2 championships....

with the very best car after a very poor first season, F3 title possibly by cheating, F2 title with a lot of luck

with the very best car after a very poor first season, F3 title possibly by cheating, F2 title with a lot of luck

How do you mean? I didn't follow Mick's junior career very closely.

How do you mean? I didn't follow Mick's junior career very closely.

The wheels fall of Willams Hunt on occasion when he write about Mick Schumacher.

How do you mean? I didn't follow Mick's junior career very closely.

a driver who was for 1,5 years around 8th-12th place suddenly suddenly started winning almost every remaining race, yeah that's not suspicious at all. Something like this never happened before. he was 12th overall when his winning streak started.
 

OK. Maybe he met a gentleman at the crossroads?

 

Mick Schumacher has as much and more merit to being a F1 than any driver on the current grid.

That's nonsense. He was worthy of a shot in F1, but it's not working out. He's too slow and crashing too much. In fact, I'd say he's probably the 2nd worst driver on the grid now (ahead of Latifi). If he doesn't improve soon and manages to remain on the grid for 2023, it's likely due to his surname.

Was Mick really the deserved F2 champion?

- Average start position: 6th best  (7.9)  (behind: Ilott, Lundgaard, Zhou, Tsunoda & Drogovich)

- Qualifying pace: 7th best   (behind Ilott, Tsunoda, Zhou, Drugovich, Daruvala & Lundgaard)

- Rolling pace  (race pace):  4th best   (behind Ilott, Schwartzmann & Tsunoda. Equal with Ticktum).

For a champion it is strange he didn't feature in the top 3 of either category.

- He was first in the sprint race points total (with reversed top 10) but not in the feature race points total (Tsunoda first there)

 

Edited by William Hunt, 11 June 2022 - 09:24.

Was Mick really the deserved F2 champion?

- Average start position: 6th best (7.9) (behind: Ilott, Lundgaard, Zhou, Tsunoda & Drogovich)
- Qualifying pace: 7th best (behind Ilott, Tsunoda, Zhou, Drugovich, Daruvala & Lundgaard)
- Rolling pace (race pace): 4th best (behind Ilott, Schwartzmann & Tsunoda. Equal with Ticktum).

For a champion it is strange he didn't feature in the top 3 of either category.

- He was first in the sprint race points total (with reversed top 10) but not in the feature race points total (Tsunoda first there)

Edited by noikeee, 11 June 2022 - 12:58.

Do your really think I would post those stats if they weren't real?
https://formulascout...-f2-title/72698

And if F3 or F2 a driver who was 1.5 alway driving around place 8 to 12th and was lying 12th overall, having never won, to suddenly won almost every remainign race and jump from 12th to 1st just because he 'suddenly clicked' no that just doesn't happen except it did that year and by coiincidence just with a driver with a very famous lat name, it was so odd and unusual.

Edited by William Hunt, 11 June 2022 - 13:58.

From his performances of Schumacher in his championship-winning F2 season I recall the most notable thing were his starts. 

Edited by Bleu, 11 June 2022 - 15:36.

Mick did well to win the F2 championship, but he never looked properly fast, which appears to be his main problem in F1. If he had another few tenths in raw pace, all would probably be fine.

Schumacher won F3 & F2 mostly thanks to prefefential treatment behind the scenes - there are plenty of ways to do it. He isn't even decent F1 driver, he is plain terrible, but it pays off to have 'the son of great Michael" on the grid. Prema did similar with Stroll a few years earlier - the link here. 

He has got almost 3 million followers on Instagram - compare with other drivers. What has he achieved in F1? Nothing.

Edited by rocque, 11 June 2022 - 18:10.

It was not just team orders that favoured Stroll in F4 & F3. He had F1 mechanics and F1 engineers, hired from Williams, working on his F3 car and in the F3 days prior to the fusion with GP3 F3 was not a spec series at all so you can bet his car was not the same equipment as other drives had that year Stroll won the title. On top of that Stroll Senior bought himself in to Prema when his son drove for them only to sell his shares again directly after his son went to Williams in F1. Not saying Stroll was a bad driver, he wasn't al all but he had a massive advantage over his competitors. His F3 team mates were said to have a team order clause in their contract, there was a case when Stroll's team mate Nick Cassidy moved over for him. Team orders are very uncommon in F3: they are normally never used in feeder series.

Edited by William Hunt, 11 June 2022 - 18:45.

Was Mick really the deserved F2 champion?

 

- Average start position: 6th best  (7.9)  (behind: Ilott, Lundgaard, Zhou, Tsunoda & Drogovich)

- Qualifying pace: 7th best   (behind Ilott, Tsunoda, Zhou, Drugovich, Daruvala & Lundgaard)

- Rolling pace  (race pace):  4th best   (behind Ilott, Schwartzmann & Tsunoda. Equal with Ticktum).

 

For a champion it is strange he didn't feature in the top 3 of either category.

 

- He was first in the sprint race points total (with reversed top 10) but not in the feature race points total (Tsunoda first there)

 

Okay now do points total.

I am pretty disappointed in Mick so far but after being trashed in the Haas technical thread and in the Haas team fight thread now you guys made a 3rd thread where the same people are giving the exact same takes they've given in the other 2 threads. Feels a but much no? 

Do your really think I would post those stats if they weren't real?
https://formulascout...-f2-title/72698

 

And if F3 or F2 a driver who was 1.5 alway driving around place 8 to 12th and was lying 12th overall, having never won, to suddenly won almost every remainign race and jump from 12th to 1st just because he 'suddenly clicked' no that just doesn't happen except it did that year and by coiincidence just with a driver with a very famous lat name, it was so odd and unusual.

I generally appreciate your input but when you go into unproven conspiracy theory territory you lose me. I'm fairly sure Prema didn't install Hamilton's 2021 spicy engine in either of Mick's F3 or F2 championship winning cars. He won because once he found his footing he was consistently at the top while others were either winning or finishing 10th. 

Edited by Scaboo22, 11 June 2022 - 20:39.

Do your really think I would post those stats if they weren't real?
https://formulascout...-f2-title/72698

 

And if F3 or F2 a driver who was 1.5 alway driving around place 8 to 12th and was lying 12th overall, having never won, to suddenly won almost every remainign race and jump from 12th to 1st just because he 'suddenly clicked' no that just doesn't happen except it did that year and by coiincidence just with a driver with a very famous lat name, it was so odd and unusual.

We can all post something real.

Mick Schumacher 2018 European F3 Champion

Mick Schumacher 2020 Formula 2 Champion

That is real.

Let' just look at statistics and probability on his F3 seasons:

In 2017 he had an average finishing postion of 9.7  so that means he finished 9th or 10th (and closer to 10th) on average. His best result was one third place (on 30 races) and his second best a 6th place.

His Prema team mates were Maximilian Gunther, Callum Ilott & Guanyu Zhou.

These were how they finished in the standings (the title was won by Lando Norris for Carlin that year):

3. Maximilian Gunther  (Ger) 383 points
4. Callum Ilott  (GB)  344 pts
8.  Guanyu Zhou  (China)  148 pts
12.  Mick Schumacher  (Ger)  94 pts.

Doesn't exactly scream future F1 star does it? After all Lando Norris was a rookie that year too and he won the title in a weaker team with 441 pts.

In 2018 Guanyu Zhou stays as Mick's team mate. The other 3 drivers that join Prema are Ralf Aron and F3 rookes Marcus Armstrong & Robert Schwartzman.

The championship is again 30 races. After 14 races Mick is the lowest (5th) placed of all Prema drivers. Zhou & Armstrong have already won and Aron even won 3 races so far (but he's more experienced as the others).
Mick's average is better as the previous year: it's 8.0 now. 

Then in race 15 at Spa, exactly halfway the 30 races, he wins his first race (actually afer pushing Guanyu Zhou, who was on pole, off track).

In the final 16 races of that year he finishes 8 times 1st, 3 times 2nd nd 1 time 3rd. So that's 12 podia out of 16 races for a driver who was 12th overall before and only managed 1 3rd the whole previous year.

His average finishing position in the final 16 races of 2018 was 2.42 however that included 1 race in which he was 12th, if we discount that race his average finish was 1.69 over 15 races.

So he went from finishing on average 9-10th (9.7) in 2017 to 8th on average in the first half of 2018 to a finishing average of 1st-2nd in the second half.

In that second half of 2018 Dan Ticktum, yes I know he has a big mouth and behaves like an idiot often, started openly saying 'The FIA should open up his engine and check it out because it's not normal that a driver who could never follow me starts to win everything and now nobody can follow him'.

As a driver I would never have said such things but I'm not a driver so I can say that I agree with him. The stats showed such an anomaly that imho this only could have happened with an unfair advantage that was given to him.
 

If you want to believe a miracle happened that year: fine, I can't prove otherwise and I'm fine with you believing that. But I don't believe in fairytales.

I don't believe that such a spectacular turn around in results, which is unique in the history of single seater feeder series (except a case in F3000 where a driver who didn't qualify won the next 4 races), is possible.
And this anomaly 'accidently' happened to someone with the name Schumacher.... which makes it even more weird.

F3 wasn't even a spec series yet in those days which made it a lot easier to do something. I'm sure Stroll had special parts on his car considering he had F1 engineers taking care of his car. That probably even was legal since it was not a spec series.

Edited by William Hunt, 11 June 2022 - 22:37.

If you can’t prove it, you can’t say it.

It is a defamatory allegation for which you and this forum risk being sued.

Let' just look at statistics and probability on his F3 seasons:

 

 

No let's just look at the facts.

Jesus.

Schumacher 100% deserves to be in F1 based on his junior career which was impressive if not meteoric.
Schumacher is 100% having a deeply s**t season.

Earned his spot, but never going to frighten the top end of the grid.

How long does the former ring true whilst the latter continues?

Well you can’t change the past, can you.

If you can’t prove it, you can’t say it.

 

It is a defamatory allegation for which you and this forum risk being sued.

Try and sue me. I happen to hold a degree in law. I didn't say he did cheat. I said I believed he did  but can't prove it for sure. In other words I voice an opinion, that I back up with stats, I did not wite that my opinion is a fact or the truth. I'm allowed to have an opinion. I did not claim it is the truth.Ticktum actually went much further with his claims on social media and he didn't even get sued.

The stats show an anomaly which is unique in the history of single seaters (apart from that case in F3000 which was at the time believed to be caused by a 'special fuel additive'). That alone is suspicious.

Funny how people say all the time that Stroll won his F3 title with an unfair advantage and nobody cares if you say that but if you say it about Schumacher then suddenly people start threatening you or behave pretty agressive to your suggestion.

By the way: I believe Schumacher Senior cheated to a title too: with traction control on his Benetton. I didn't say it's a fact, just that it is my opinion that I think he did that. No fan ever got sued for calling Schumacher Senior a cheater btw.

PS: I do think Mick won his F2 title fairly. He fought & worked hard for that. But he wasn't the quickest driver that year.

Edited by William Hunt, 11 June 2022 - 21:54.

Try and sue me. I happen to hold a degree in law. I didn't say he did cheat. I said I believed he did  but can't prove it for sure. In other words I voice an opinion, that I back up with stats, I did not wite that my opinion is a fact or the truth. I'm allowed to have an opinion. I did not claim it is the truth.Ticktum actually went much further with his claims on social media and he didn't even get sued.

 

The stats show an anomaly which is unique in the history of single seaters (apart from that case in F3000 which was at the time believed to be caused by a 'special fuel additive'). That alone is suspicious.

 

Funny how people say all the time that Stroll won his F3 title with an unfair advantage and nobody cares if you say that but if you say it about Schumacher then suddenly people start threatening you or behave pretty agressive to your suggestion.

By the way: I believe Schumacher Senior cheated to a title too: with traction control on his Benetton. I didn't say it's a fact, just that it is my opinion that I think he did that. No fan ever got sued for calling Schumacher Senior a cheater btw.

Amazing how you can make yourself sound pompous and ignorant of the facts you argue at the same time.

I think just letting your words stand will be better.

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 11 June 2022 - 22:02.

I always thought Dan Ticktums claims of foul play would ring truer if (1 he wasn't a bit of a ***) 2 if he was actually constantly running 2nd to Schumacher, but his second half of the season he was behind a bunch of guys.

Also, Robert Shwartzman stepped up in performance at the same time as Schumacher, did he also cheat? 

I think it's more likely that Schumacher is a confidence type driver, he finally got the confidence from that win and never looked back.

in F2 he wasn't outright the quickest, but he was consistent, so I guess in some ways it's not surprising that he's struggling now, maybe it'll work out, but maybe not, I wouldn't be surprised if he's in the Le Mans Ferrari in 2023

About cheat, have a look at the Grosjean vs Hulkenberg year in GP2, one of them became way less performant from a point.

Nothing strange about the stats of Hülkenberg & Grosjean.

However there was a strange case in F3000 in 1991 when Emanuele Naspetti didn't qualify, then scored a pole and won 4 races in a row. In the paddock teams were accusing his team, Forti Corse, of using illegal fuel additives.
However: F3000 was a multi chassis championship. That year Reynard was clearly the dominant chassis. Christian Fittipaldi & Alessandro Zanardi, who finished 1 & 2 in the tables and ahead of Naspetti, also used that Reynard.
Forti had started the season on a Lola chassis, that was not working well at all that year, and the change of form happened exactly when they changed to Reynard.

In any case: the FIA applied stricter fuel and fuel addiditve rules the next year and they checked it better to make sure those rumours wouldn't circulate again. And Naspetti won at Pau in '92: in a car that was checked to have legal fuel. Do I think he cheated? No, I think it had more to do with the switch to Reynard + Naspetti already in his 3rd season then.

Edited by William Hunt, 11 June 2022 - 22:43.

Nothing strange about the stats, perhaps, but if you know people in that paddock, they know.
Stuff like that, it always come out.
Always, one day or another.

We’ve already split this topic out. Are we going to have to split out another topic for F3000 fuel irregularities, or are you going to keep discussion on topic?

I always thought Dan Ticktums claims of foul play would ring truer if (1 he wasn't a bit of a ***) 2 if he was actually constantly running 2nd to Schumacher, but his second half of the season he was behind a bunch of guys.
 
Also, Robert Shwartzman stepped up in performance at the same time as Schumacher, did he also cheat? 
 
I think it's more likely that Schumacher is a confidence type driver, he finally got the confidence from that win and never looked back.
 
in F2 he wasn't outright the quickest, but he was consistent, so I guess in some ways it's not surprising that he's struggling now, maybe it'll work out, but maybe not, I wouldn't be surprised if he's in the Le Mans Ferrari in 2023

Thank you for writing pretty much the post I was about to write!

I don't have any inside information but I did watch all of Schumacher's F3 and F2 races and I don't think there was anything suspicious about his (and Prema's) progress in F3. Schumacher did go on a winning streak three rounds after his first win at Spa (of all places) but that was at the Nürburgring where it's impossible to pass and at the Red Bull Ring where it's pretty much impossible to pass a fast car. And like you said, his teammate Shwartzman also stepped up at the same time.

Try and sue me. I happen to hold a degree in law. I didn't say he did cheat. I said I believed he did  but can't prove it for sure. In other words I voice an opinion, that I back up with stats,

Can't get around that.  "He is a thief" = defamatory.  "I think he is a thief" = infers a fact that he is a thief, therefore is not an opinion, but a veiled statement of fact.  Lord Oaksey in Turner v MGM [1950]:

It is true, as counsel for the appellant pointed out, that a statement which is plainly one of fact cannot be transformed into a statement of opinion merely by prefacing it with the words “in our judgment”

 

What one can say is that it is curious that Schumacher, after a year and a half of eff all in F3, suddenly became unbeatable, at the same time as a) one team-mate also did the same and b) the others suddenly dropped from the top; that one other driver called it out; that the media reported that other driver calling it out; and the media were remarkably low-key about what should have been a gigantic feel-good story.

How can  suspicion of potential cheating, or suggesting a driver had an unfair advantage, even be discusssed if you aren't allowed to talk about it ensign14? 

What about people who suggested Ferrari was cheating with the fuel flow in 2020? It turned out to be true. Should they have been forced to remain silent too?

Again people don't mind if you accuse Stroll of having had an unfair advantage in F3 but when you say this about Schumacher they tell you to shut up and even make threats to you about sueing you.... Somebody started threatening me on this thread, don't think he would have done that if it was about Stroll.

Edited by William Hunt, 12 June 2022 - 07:33.

Someone is making a fool of himself in here.

How can  suspicion of potential cheating, or suggesting a driver had an unfair advantage, even be discusssed if you aren't allowed to talk about it ensign14? 

What about people who suggested Ferrari was cheating with the fuel flow in 2020? It turned out to be true. Should they have been forced to remain silent too?

You are.   Just not in terms that fall foul of the tort of defamation.  So one can talk about the circumstances and ask questions how it could suddenly happen.

So we're not allowed to talk about Benetton using traction control for Schumacher in the '90s too? Or about Michael cheating when he crashed in to Villeneuve & Hill so he could win a title?

Because it's Schumacher and so we're not allowed to say that his son's F3 title looks suspicious with strange pattern change in his results? 

Edited by William Hunt, 12 June 2022 - 07:47.

Food for thought, is it 'cheating' what Schumacher tried to do in 1997, or just insanely unsporting and deserving of a DSQ for the deliberate crash

Well if people really think it's defamation what I wrote, and I perfectly understand that they feel this way with what I said. I do get that people feel uneasy about the topic and they do have a point if I don't prove it with black on white evidence (which is impossible).

I'm okay with my posts and this thread to be deleted because it causes negativity and tension between people and that is not my intention. I don't enjoy people fighting with each other you know. 

I've said what I've had to say about that title, I'm not going to change my opinion about it and neither will others.

I do would appreciate it if people could show other examples of drivers suddenly winning almost every race after 1.5 years of underperforming. if they can: that would change my mind that it's possible he won it fairly.

Edited by William Hunt, 12 June 2022 - 08:15.

So we're not allowed to talk about Benetton using traction control for Schumacher in the '90s too? Or about Michael cheating when he crashed in to Villeneuve & Hill so he could win a title?
Because it's Schumacher and so we're not allowed to say that his son's F3 title looks suspicious with strange pattern change in his results?

Edited by messy, 12 June 2022 - 08:16.

So we're not allowed to talk about Benetton using traction control for Schumacher in the '90s too? Or about Michael cheating when he crashed in to Villeneuve & Hill so he could win a title?

Because it's Schumacher and so we're not allowed to say that his son's F3 title looks suspicious with strange pattern change in his results? 

Very difficult for a corporation to sue, so no chance of being done for "Benetton cheated" in 1994.  Not least because there is one verifiable fact; they had illegal software on their cars.  And truth is a defence.

Which also applies to Schumacher's repeated cheating to cheat titles.

The pattern of results , his finishing pattern jumping from average 10th to average 8th to suddenly average of 1st and 2nd is a verifiable fact Ensign.

You can discuss if such a pattern is common, has happened before (I can only remember one case: Naspetti F3000 but he switched chassis) and if it's likely to happen (again)?

Show me other patterns to show it's common or an anomaly.
If it's an anomaly it's suspicious and that's my whole point.

I'm going to stop discussing this now because frankly I'm fed up with people attacking me as a person instead of my argument. Try to show that my argument is flawed by showing similar patterns and I might agree with you.

Edited by William Hunt, 12 June 2022 - 08:38.

the name Stroll should not even be mentioned in this topic, Lance had a superior junior record compared SCH jr

The pattern of results , his finishing pattern jumping from average 10th to average 8th to suddenly average of 1st and 2nd is a verifiable fact Ensign.

Yes, so one can ask why he had such an improvement.  What one cannot do without proof is say "therefore he was cheating".  Not least because Shwartzmann showed something similar.  Wouldn't surprise me if Prema had found a fundamental problem with a couple of chassis and swapped them over between drivers.

and won karting titles, whereas SCH won a local karting event in his hometown of Kerpen.

No: both Stroll & Mick were very competitive in karting.

Schumacher actually was 2nd in both the Junior European & World championship. He did drive for the best team (Tony Kart factory team) though and small detail: the Junior category is for drivers aged 12 to 14 years old (11 even if you become 12 later that month) but back in the KF days it was allowed to stay aged 15 (don't know if that still is allowed today in the FIA category, don't think so).

But drivers normally go to a higher category as soon as they're old enough so that's quite rare. Well: Mick scored those two runner-up titles when he was already 15 (birthday March 1999, it was in 2014) against 12 to 14 year olds. Puts things a bit  in perspective.

However: in previous years, mostly in the German championships (which were competitive) he did show a lot of speed at younger age already.

Now one thing that's often not mentioned is that it's so much easier to climb up in autosport with a billionaire dad or famous name. You always get the best kart or car, the best team, never have to worry about money.

Stroll had F1 engineers working on his F3 car Statman: that is not common or normal you know. Stroll's dad bought himself in to Prema at the time just like Mazepin's dad did at Hitech.

Mick's arch rival in karting was David Beckmann. Beckmann also comes from a rich family with a family owned company. But not as rich as Stroll and his name is  not as famous as Mick's dad is. Look at how different their carreers ended up. I would say they were similar in talent and potential.

Edited by William Hunt, 12 June 2022 - 08:54.

About cheat, have a look at the Grosjean vs Hulkenberg year in GP2, one of them became way less performant from a point.

Hulkenberg was never such an error-prone and inconsistent driver like Schumacher. He was the star, because he earned it.

He remained within ART’s embrace for 2009, with his reserve role at Williams extended for another year… but once more things began modestly. “There were a couple of podium finishes early on,” says Vasseur, “but Grosjean made a flying start and had quite a big points lead after a few races. Again, we sat down to discuss things and Nico reassured us that there was no need to worry. He was certain he could make up the difference and soon afterwards we went to the Nurburgring, where he won both races a turning point that reflected his self-belief.”

https://www.motorspo...horse-and-groom

F2 & Schumacher:

2019: 12th in the standings, one lucky win at Hungaroring due to reversed grid and only 53 points

2020: Only two wins in feature races, he had never scored pole position, he had slight advantage over second Ilott (19 points) and Tsunoda (20 points) - the latter one was a rookie. The field was rather weak (Mazepin 5th in the standings, Zhou 6th).

When you consider F1 performance, Mazepin and Zhou are just paydrivers. Tsunoda was terrible last year, but now is way better than Schumacher. 

I mean...the guy drove Prema cars all of his junior Formula careers and this is the result?! I guess lifting on daddy's name can get you far, but at some point...

 

And now he's being exposed. About to become the winner of the last 2 editions of the F1 World Destructors Championship.

 

If Gunther is smart, he throws him out and find a talented driver for that seat.

Exactly 

Edited by rocque, 12 June 2022 - 08:57.

So we're not allowed to talk about Benetton using traction control for Schumacher in the '90s too? Or about Michael cheating when he crashed in to Villeneuve & Hill so he could win a title?
Because it's Schumacher and so we're not allowed to say that his son's F3 title looks suspicious with strange pattern change in his results?