Is McLaren's multi series approach the future of Motorsports?

With the current discussion of Daniel Ricciardo going on, the latest F1 tests of Herta and Pato, the signing of reigning Indycar champion Palou from Ganassi and the decision that has to be taken if Rosenqvist will jump from Indycar to Formula E, McLaren seems to be a racing outfit that is in a position where it possibly can reshuffle its drivers from one series to another.

Which is a very interesting thougt and, as the title describes, a possible way in Motorsports in general for the future.

There currently are McLaren teams in:

Formula One

Indycar

Formula E

Extreme E

And it is evaluating its possible factory entry on Le Mans and IMSA as well.

Making it the team that is the most active in various kinds of top level Motorsports.

With many drivers signed, it might be a possibility to switch drivers over to different series to keep them entertained and keep the value of the race team in a specific series up. And who knows, maybe in 5 years time drivers will be signing for McLaren and not for a racing series at all.

Imagine Ricciardo switching to Indycar? That would boost the image and support of its Indycar outfit, and Indycar in general, immediately.

Or imagine reigning Indycar champion Palou entering their Formula One outfit? That would boost the interest of American people into Formula One as well.

And, as an example, if Norris is being pulled away by Mercedes to replace Hamilton in the near future, should he retire, then there is no problem for McLaren. They have got other drivers in other racing series who can take over as they have regularly tested a recent Formula One car.

Or how about interchanging sponsors between series. For example, signing a big sponsor in Formula One that also gets its presence at the Indy 500?

I think Zak Brown knocked this one out of the park. Its a completely new approach in the modern day and age and it might mount to something that is becoming an institution in Motorracing. Only time will tell if this is the case or not. But I think it is worth a seperate thread on it. Im curious to see if I am the only one who is quite amazed with the possibilities McLaren has created for itself.

It certainly covers all the bases and I can't see sponsors being unhappy with that. Also, and don't ask me to articulate it because it's purely based on a gut feeling, but Zak Brown is the closest thing we're going to have to Mr. E after Mr. E. Having team fingers in different series' pies isn't wholly new, but having a stable of drivers who can and/or want to interchange between them might be, and I have no problem with that. I've always preferred 'drivers' rather than 'Formula 1 pilots' if that makes sense. Take us back to competing in multiple series a year I say.

What, you mean like Red Bull have been doing since the start? Or manufacturers like Porsche?

But no. Driving contracts are very specific about what series you race in. Very few people are going to sign a generic McLaren 'studio' contract and not know where they're going. I think all the McLaren contracts are very very specific about what you drive and who you do sponsor promotions for and all the rest of it. And I don't see this concept of signing for the 'brand' not the series expanding. 

Would it not be better for McLaren to focus on trying to win one series instead of been a little bit **** at everything? Apart from Lando Norris there isn't one driver on their books that looks like they could challenge the current crop of top tier drivers, it looks the same with their engineering staff. 

It's the Red Bull/City Football Group model.  Time will tell if it makes sense.  I find it very, very interesting, but while it works really well for the race team; other than the F1 team, it doesn't work so well for the automotive side.  That might change in future as technical rules change and perhaps McLaren are able to start to make those components, but for now it's interesting, but I don't know if it's really viable long-term.

Is it new? Apart from size, there’s no real difference between McLaren and Ferrari, Porsche, etc., and they’ve competed in multiple categories for forever.

Categories yes. But a full on factory effort in pretty much all top tier motorsports series, that has not been done by Ferrari, Porsche and its likes in recent memory.

What, you mean like Red Bull have been doing since the start? Or manufacturers like Porsche?

But no. Driving contracts are very specific about what series you race in. Very few people are going to sign a generic McLaren 'studio' contract and not know where they're going. I think all the McLaren contracts are very very specific about what you drive and who you do sponsor promotions for and all the rest of it. And I don't see this concept of signing for the 'brand' not the series expanding.

Edited by Beri, 14 July 2022 - 14:02.

I suppose what Zak Brown is doing is taking quite an old approach and applying it to areas of the sport where it has perhaps not been the norm in more recent decades. 

As I was suggesting in the Palou SHOCK thread, I think the disparate nature of the driver salary that can be won in each series is an interesting problem. You'll have all the drivers under your banner probably wanting to make their way into the F1 side, where you can earn more from running for points and maybe occasionally scraping a podium on a good day than you can winning an IndyCar title. Which is a bit ridiculous, in all honesty. 

So what is Zak Brown's aim here? Does he want to run his drivers with the F1 team as the pinnacle and have them scrap over F1 seats and maybe promote/demote a la the Red Bull Driver Program? Or does he want to level the playing field across the championships such that they can all command very lucrative salaries? 

I think a really cool aim which would unlock many, many opportunities for the sport as a whole would be trying to create a team/driver culture whereby winning an IndyCar title, an F1 title and an FE title is seen as being just as good if not better than winning three F1 titles. It's perhaps very hard to do that as one man and one team alone. 

Edited by Ben1445, 14 July 2022 - 14:08.

Would it not be better for McLaren to focus on trying to win one series instead of been a little bit **** at everything? Apart from Lando Norris there isn't one driver on their books that looks like they could challenge the current crop of top tier drivers, it looks the same with their engineering staff.

I think that it would be interesting to see the cost of the Red Bull Driver program vs the non-F1 McLaren racing budget.  I think they might be fairly comparable, but McLaren get a way to develop engineering talent as well, and probably get a larger amount of commercial return from racing in high-level non-F1 series than Red Bull gets from handing out bundles of money to a large fleet of drivers who will never make it to F1 across a range of series.

I suppose what Zak Brown is doing is taking quite an old approach and applying it to areas of the sport where it has perhaps not been the norm in more recent decades. 

 

As I was suggesting in the Palou SHOCK thread, I think the disparate nature of the driver salary that can be won in each series is an interesting problem. You'll have all the drivers under your banner probably wanting to make their way into the F1 side, where you can earn more from running for points and maybe occasionally scraping a podium on a good day than you can winning an IndyCar title. Which is a bit ridiculous, in all honesty. 

 

So what is Zak Brown's aim here? Does he want to run his drivers with the F1 team as the pinnacle and have them scrap over F1 seats and maybe promote/demote a la the Red Bull Driver Program? Or does he want to level the playing field across the championships such that they can all command very lucrative salaries? 

 

I think a really cool aim which would unlock many, many opportunities for the sport as a whole would be trying to create a team/driver culture whereby winning an IndyCar title, an F1 title and an FE title is seen as being just as good if not better than winning three F1 titles. It's perhaps very hard to do that as one man and one team alone. 

I think he just wants the best drivers he can for all series, but he can cross-pollinate a little to sweeten the offers.

You don't sign for McLaren Indycar on the vague potential of an F1 experience. You will want it spelled out in your contract. Otherwise your "F1 promise" is driving a 97 McLaren Mercedes up the hill a Goodwood. Which would be ****ing awesome, but isn't running FP1 at your home grand prix. 

Likewise you wouldn't sign for the F1 team if there was a threat that if the winds shifted you'd be farmed out to French GT4 and a customer team.

I think he just wants the best drivers he can for all series, but he can cross-pollinate a little to sweeten the offers.

 

You don't sign for McLaren Indycar on the vague potential of an F1 experience. You will want it spelled out in your contract. Otherwise your "F1 promise" is driving a 97 McLaren Mercedes up the hill a Goodwood. Which would be ****ing awesome, but isn't running FP1 at your home grand prix. 

 

Likewise you wouldn't sign for the F1 team if there was a threat that if the winds shifted you'd be farmed out to French GT4 and a customer team.

This.

I can see some veerrrryyy disappointed drivers a few years down the line, if the enticement is greater than the eventual reality.

It may to an extent be the new thing, but I have a gut feeling that without wins and championships it can come crashing down, and they not just last year borrow hundreds of millions secured against the who McLaren megaplex?

Edited by LolaB0860, 14 July 2022 - 14:45.

If you're a star F1 driver why would you sign for this ****.

With things as they are today? You wouldn't. 

If the money and the prestige was spread out a little more equally through the various categories of the sport? You might. 

We can discuss both the situation today and theoretical aims for the future here. 

With things as they are today? You wouldn't. 

 

If the money and the prestige was spread out a little more equally through the various categories of the sport? You might. 

So at least 10 years from now if you're very very very optimistic about other categories?

Now you're capped on what you can spend on F1, the wealthier teams will find themselves with additional capital they an invest in other series moreso than in the past. 

Jack of all trades, master of none.

So at least 10 years from now if you're very very very optimistic about other categories?

Yeah, if you like. That's exactly why I said it is probably very hard to do that as one man and one team alone. 

Midweek Motorsport had (I think) NASCAR driver Parker Kligerman on the show a couple of weeks ago and he was saying that he thinks there's been more of a post-pandemic wave of thinking in which motorsport realises that it is all one sport and that championships working with one another is the best path to success instead of competing against each other. That's the mood shift that needs to be nurtured across the board if such an extensive, cross-championship approach were to really make sense. 

I think the working together approach is ultimately the right one. I think one championship (F1) sucking up all the money in the sport leaves you with a top heavy and unstable ecosystem. That can't change overnight, but cost capping was a start. It unlocked the Ferrari LMH project for starters. 

Edited by Ben1445, 14 July 2022 - 15:20.

Those who say they should focus solely on F1 miss the point that the diversification was made possible by the cost cap - it's not taking people or time away from F1.

Those who say they should focus solely on F1 miss the point that the diversification was made possible by the cost cap - it's not taking people or time away from F1.

You need to pay for all of it, if there are no success there will be less sponsors, or at least lower sponsor income - They may thrive for years, until and if they fail all is good.

A lot of the Indycar sponsors seem to have branched out and now are visible on the F1 car, so it may be that Zak has found it much more effective as a way to introduce sponsors at a lower threshold, and then encourage them to move up as they see a return.

Edited by Spillage, 14 July 2022 - 17:31.

Red Bull kinda already do this with youths to a degree, its nothing really new as such.

Edited by pup, 14 July 2022 - 19:31.

Andretti has run multiple disciplines for a while now.  Nothing new.  So have Penske and Ganassi.  If anything ol’ Zak is late to the party.

I think the focus on McLaren branding is unique.  Penske and Ganassi are quite content to be the background figure providing the services to the brands that want a first class race team without trying to put one together themselves.  So, this is slightly different in that sense.

This.

I can see some veerrrryyy disappointed drivers a few years down the line, if the enticement is greater than the eventual reality.

Estimated McLaren racing annual budget allocation

F1 99%
Formula E 0,4%
Indycar 0,3%
Zak Brown's United Autosports side projects 0,1%
All the rest 0,2%

So probably not

So you reckon that McLaren's annual budget for Indycar is about $700k a year? Seem a little light! 

It just makes good business sense and I think that this is the sole driving factor behind this. If you're pitching to a sponsor these days, it's not just about a logo on the side of a F1 or Indy car (and in fairness hasn't been for some time). The CSR considerations these days are huge, so as well as trumpeting all the F1 hybrid technology, carbon neutral fuel etc., etc., if you can throw in a couple of electric series as well it makes it much more palatable, so expect the level of cross-branding among different series to increase exponentially in the future. However, with regards Palou et al I'm as clueless as to what the plan is as everyone else.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

It's an interesting notion, indeed. It appears that the F1 budget cap has, at least in some part, enabled motorsport organisations to diversify.

A few thoughts:

• It's nothing new, indeed. Until roughly the mid-1970s Ferrari had factory efforts in F1 and sportscars/Le Mans. And Williams had what was effectively a factory team in BTCC plus a Le Mans car in the latter half of the 1990s.
• McLaren having a "factory team" in the four categories is debatable, though. There are even arguments that their F1 team is a privateer, not a factory effort, never mind the spec series they enter, i.e. IndyCar and Formula E (I'm not familiar with the Extreme E tech set-up).
• As stated above, Red Bull's Junior programma is something different again: it's basically about drivers climbing the Karting and Formula 4-3-2-1 ladder, with the best eventually arriving at RBR. Its actual success may be questioned, however, with (top of mind) only Vettel going all the way to the WDC from the programme. (I'm not counting Verstappen here — a little arbitrary, of course — but my reasoning is that the Belgian-born driver was picked up late in his sole F3 seasons, and graduated to F1 almost instantly.)
• I do applaud both Red Bull and McLaren for their respective strategies, though, and I'd like to see more teams diversify to IndyCar and/or WEC.

This.

I can see some veerrrryyy disappointed drivers a few years down the line, if the enticement is greater than the eventual reality.

McLaren still have separate companies and separate managements and all separate.

It should be under one house, how in one house, I mean in what company structure, is the issue I think.

Can McLaren smoothly swap drivers from indy to F1 if it so wishes? Is F1 McLaren contract valid to move drivers to US? I mean I don't know, but I think it is not automatic...

 

It's an interesting notion, indeed. It appears that the F1 budget cap has, at least in some part, enabled motorsport organisations to diversify.

 

A few thoughts:

 

• It's nothing new, indeed. Until roughly the mid-1970s Ferrari had factory efforts in F1 and sportscars/Le Mans. And Williams had what was effectively a factory team in BTCC plus a Le Mans car in the latter half of the 1990s.
• McLaren having a "factory team" in the four categories is debatable, though. There are even arguments that their F1 team is a privateer, not a factory effort, never mind the spec series they enter, i.e. IndyCar and Formula E (I'm not familiar with the Extreme E tech set-up).
• As stated above, Red Bull's Junior programma is something different again: it's basically about drivers climbing the Karting and Formula 4-3-2-1 ladder, with the best eventually arriving at RBR. Its actual success may be questioned, however, with (top of mind) only Vettel going all the way to the WDC from the programme. (I'm not counting Verstappen here — a little arbitrary, of course — but my reasoning is that the Belgian-born driver was picked up late in his sole F3 seasons, and graduated to F1 almost instantly.)
• I do applaud both Red Bull and McLaren for their respective strategies, though, and I'd like to see more teams diversify to IndyCar and/or WEC.

 

Agree with everything that you say, apart from the idea that McLaren F1 are not a 'factory team', unless one holds that 'factory team' is defined as a racing team that designs and builds its own ICEs and PUs. Even then it starts to get semantic, as Daimler AG, the company that own Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains, are now only minority shareholders in Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1, the constructor and entrant; Mercedes F1 do not produce their own PUs, they buy them from an independent supplier (although Merc F1 obviously do enjoy certain advantages in their relationship with the supplier).

Among the 'customer' teams in F1, McLaren do more of their own design and manufacturing work on their cars than any other team does on their own cars, and McLaren do it in a big 'factory'.

To me, it establishes McLaren as maybe THE premier RACING organization globally.  If they indeed also enter GTP/Hypercar for IMSA/WEC, it will be hard to argue that there is any other entity that is more engaged in worldwide auto racing.  Even without sports cars, you can already argue that.  And I find that pretty awesome.  Kinda reminds me of the fictional Vaillante team, which I always thought was very cool in entering all sorts of global motorsports events and series with a pool of drivers that makes appearances here and there.

"Is oftentimes better than master of one."

People seem to always forget the last part of the proverb.

The trouble with proverbs is that there's always another one counselling you to do the exact opposite.

"Too many cooks spoil the broth" / "Many hands make light work" : WHICH IS IT

It is hardly new.   In its earliest days, McLaren was racing in F1, F2, Can-Am and whatever Indycars was called then.  

As long as each operation is kept separate financially and not allowed to compromise the other units in financial or staffing matters, I see no problem.

Agree with everything that you say, apart from the idea that McLaren F1 are not a 'factory team', unless one holds that 'factory team' is defined as a racing team that designs and builds its own ICEs and PUs. Even then it starts to get semantic, as Daimler AG, the company that own Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains, are now only minority shareholders in Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1, the constructor and entrant; Mercedes F1 do not produce their own PUs, they buy them from an independent supplier (although Merc F1 obviously do enjoy certain advantages in their relationship with the supplier).

Among the 'customer' teams in F1, McLaren do more of their own design and manufacturing work on their cars than any other team does on their own cars, and McLaren do it in a big 'factory'.

Yes, I tend to agree. It's not as clear cut as it might have been in the past.

I mean: McLaren–Honda were effectively a factory team, as were Williams–BMW. McLaren–Mercedes were the de facto works effort for two decades.

The current Mercedes team can be argued both ways, just as you say. 

So it's complicated. I would think that on the current grid, Ferrari are a clear-cut factory team, Alpine–Renault maybe, Mercedes only from a certain point of view, and possibly Red Bull–RBPT.

To me, it establishes McLaren as maybe THE premier RACING organization globally.  If they indeed also enter GTP/Hypercar for IMSA/WEC, it will be hard to argue that there is any other entity that is more engaged in worldwide auto racing.  Even without sports cars, you can already argue that.  And I find that pretty awesome.  Kinda reminds me of the fictional Vaillante team, which I always thought was very cool in entering all sorts of global motorsports events and series with a pool of drivers that makes appearances here and there.

And, yet, what have they won recently? Compared to a company like Porsche?

So you reckon that McLaren's annual budget for Indycar is about $700k a year? Seem a little light!

Edited by LolaB0860, 15 July 2022 - 13:39.

It's a couple of millions but still absolute pocket change in comparison to F1, cannot even compare. They have old spec car with no development (dampers are cheap, the new hybrid engines keep getting delayed) and the team is co-run / cow-owned with Sam Schmidt Motorsports. Had they established the team from scratch it would've requires a little bit more to get going but even still, apples and oranges. Lunch catering and physioteraphy service costs for Norris and Ricciardo may be comparable for full ICS season...

And, yet, what have they won recently? Compared to a company like Porsche?

Well, they have recently scored wins and podiums in F1 and IndyCar - that's nothing to sneeze at.  And they just only entered XE and will enter FE - I would expect them to do the same in each of those 2 categories as well.

Top teams in IndyCar spend about 8 million US Dollars per year on one car. Which makes the outfit of Ganassi likely to spend over 32 million per season on its outfit.

McLaren is no top team (yet). But I'd reckon they are north of 25 million a season as well.

That's no peanuts like your describe it to be.

Edited by LolaB0860, 15 July 2022 - 19:05.

10% isn't pennies, and if McLaren are noted within the paddock for excessive spending (which they are), then trying to claim it's a just a rounding error to them seems out of place given the level of importance they seem to put on it.  It's the only place they can actually hide F1-related spending, as the 2022 F1 rules meant they now have to use roughly the same suspension set-up in both series (and with dampers being the only open area of development in Indycar, that makes for a very useful savings for the F1 program).