Do you want to buy an historic Indy car?

Well, now is your chance since 39 of them from the Newman-Haas team are being sold. Link.

All righty then, pending Powerball coming through for me with tonight's drawing, AKA The Sure Thing, I put Sotheby's on SpeedDial.

Just looked thru the list.... oh dear!

Would be fun to see what some of the memorabilia will go for.  One of the helmets or the signed Road America poster would be very tempting if they didn't go for crazy money.

Need to win in Eurojackpot soon, then one of the newer ones will be my future track toy.

Mansells championship winning car. Lets see what my accountant thinks about this "investment"..

Is there any info as to why this collection is being sold and sold in one tranche?

This must be a current historic Indycar owner's nightmare - 39 cars hitting he market at once

Nonetheless it should provide a good valuation benchmark for historic Indy cars of the later generation .

BTW an English language question for the experts here - if I write about " historics" as a group is it with a Capital H or not please?

'H' or 'h' to personal taste, dependent upon context, I feel.  

In any case, it would also largely depend upon what degree of importance or significance one attaches to 'them'.  Are they important to you and to like-minded enthusiasts, or are 'we' in such a minority that such cars are just obsolete, by-gone, technologically surpassed, regulation-expired irrelevancies?

DCN 

This must be a current historic Indycar owner's nightmare - 39 cars hitting he market at once

 

Nonetheless it should provide a good valuation benchmark for historic Indy cars of the later generation .

 

BTW an English language question for the experts here - if I write about " historics" as a group is it with a Capital H or not please?

It is surely most unwise financially to flood the market like this.  Most of these cars will go for substantially less than they might had they been drip-fed onto the market.   It will knock back the value of all such cars which is I guess setting a new (not necessarily welcome) benchmark.  

As for the English question, it is IMO with a small 'h' unless it was the title of a series or something specific like that (eg Historic Masters' Series).  But I do not claim to be an expert.

Edited by BRG, 14 August 2022 - 09:19.

Indycars?????

For some of the American Purists among us, the lot is rather disappointing

From what I can work out, there are not that many cars within the lot that have actually raced in the 500

At least not among the cars of which the racing careers are described already.

Edit:

On second thoughts, there are more cars with some 500 pedigry after all. But some cars are in `strange` shape.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 14 August 2022 - 10:05.

This must be a current historic Indycar owner's nightmare - 39 cars hitting he market at once

 

Nonetheless it should provide a good valuation benchmark for historic Indy cars of the later generation .

 

Well, Indy Cars aren´t valued all that high at least in Europe. They are too big and heavy to be really competitive in racing such as BOSS GP so there is no market for them. Probably only for a few enthusiasts for demo runs or trackdays.

I own a Lola T93/00 bought as a roller for FF1600 money and thats what most of the cars offered at the auction will probably raise except the ones with Mansell and Andretti history.

Thanks for sharing the link to that auction as the detail photos of Mansells T93/00 are very helpful for my project.

Red 5 would make a great talking point in my living room. For a start, I doubt people could walk around it easily and the cats would probably crap in the tub. 

Some serious cars there. 

Red five standing by (living room).

For anyone who wants to get a complete collection of every post 1982 Lola, this is a chance to find an example of almost all of them, even from the rarest ones, the earlier cars

But curiously, one other, very significant type of Lola is missing within the collection:  No 1987 type T87/00  !!!

Red 5 comes with a workshop manual .. was this for the car or the driver ?   

Is there any info as to why this collection is being sold and sold in one tranche?

Good question - I suspect this is for the liquidation of the Carl Haas estate  Does anybody know for certain?

He died in 2016. but it's plausible the estate might have taken 6 years to go through probate, and perhaps his family/heirs did not want the financial burden of storing and maintaining dozens of historic racing cars. 

Edited by Emery0323, 14 August 2022 - 16:48.

On second thoughts, there are more cars with some 500 pedigry after all. But some cars are in `strange` shape.

A big chunk of the inventory is post-500 entries so that makes sense. 

What disappoints me is how some of them are completely stripped(ie no electronics) and I don't see the point in driving one of these things without their correct bits. It's not really an Indycar if you put a Judd and some Avons on it, it's just a Formula Something. Equally I'm surprised the 2002 title winner comes with a Toyota engine(minus pop-off valve) given the lease deals of the time. But perhaps it has no internals. The Mansell car with the Cosworth and the pop-off valve and dash is interesting. 

You'd have to really investigate which chassis you're getting, the history, and the current running spec. Which you would at these prices. I'm guessing 40-100k depending on how much someone has their heart set on a particular car. The random turn of the century Lola-Fords won't go for much, the Swifts even less, the Mansell/Mario cars might get a premium. Perhaps an enterprising McDonald's franchise owner will pick up some of the Bourdais sleds for their corporate office.

The weird one for me was the 89 car in 97-ish colors. I think most of the others are correct chassis-to-livery.

Good question - I suspect this is for the liquidation of the Carl Haas estate  Does anybody know for certain?

 

He died in 2016. but it's plausible the estate might have taken 6 years to go through probate, and perhaps his family/heirs did not want the financial burden of storing and maintaining dozens of historic racing cars. 

Big guess but I'm assuming Mrs Haas and/or the children(were there any?). This isn't team inventory so I doubt any of these have been run, they've been in the private collection along with the signed helmets and championship trophies. Several of the cars have had their engines and electronics pulled and replaced with frames for show car duty. 

Good question - I suspect this is for the liquidation of the Carl Haas estate  Does anybody know for certain?

 

He died in 2016. but it's plausible the estate might have taken 6 years to go through probate, and perhaps his family/heirs did not want the financial burden of storing and maintaining dozens of historic racing cars. 

That, and if there are multiple beneficiaries, few, if any, are going to be interested in receiving an Indy car, or worse, 1.5 Indy cars, as their share of the estate.

That, and if there are multiple beneficiaries, few, if any, are going to be interested in receiving an Indy car, or worse, 1.5 Indy cars, as their share of the estate.

Moreover, as others have said up-thread,  the really valuable ones will likely be the ones with the Mario Andretti or Nigel Mansell history, maybe Michael Andretti history too.  They're the ones likely to generate bidding wars, the others will likely generate much less interest

The obituary for Carl Haas I found only mentions his wife, Bernadette, but no children.   Maybe there are other heirs or extended family.

https://www.nytimes....dies-at-87.html

It's interesting that Nigel Mansell sold off some of his collection recently, the 1991 Williams FW14 and the 1989 Ferrari F189. 

Maybe he's got space and cash to buy his CART championship winner now?

Edited by Emery0323, 15 August 2022 - 03:58.

The Sterling going rate for once genuinely raced obsolescent Formula 1 cars, less engine, probably less gearbox too but otherwise rigged as show cars and externally looking complete, seems to be anything between £12-£15,000 and £30-40,000 dependent upon associated driver and race result history.  Points-scoring cars sell better than non-scorers, podium-finish cars rather better still, and pole, fastest-lap and/or race winning-chassis generally best of all. The long-term possibility of also acquiring a suitable engine/gearbox/power unit/drivetrain could also enhance perceived market value.

But with recent hybrid designs that is vanishingly unlikely.  The moment a modern-era car is switched off and its power unit stilled at the end of its last outing is really the moment of death.  The power unit most often returns to the supplier - and is itself consigned to the scrapper, or is internally stripped of anything regarded as having a residual value and itself becomes a display item.

The more attractive of the 'lesser' show cars would be those assembled around a chassis whose history included some particularly memorable, contemporarily much publicised, single performance or incident - would-be owners buying into possession of that particular 'landmark' car. 

At the bottom end of the scale, within the era of moulded composite chassis, one has to be wary of those tubs built solely for promotional 'show car' display purposes and therefore never really raced, practised, tested...nor even ever run under their own power.

As ever, when buying such an engineless old significant-class racing car -  it's very much a case of caveat emptor, 'buyer beware', which is really better expressed (much less dramatically but far more sensibly) as simply 'buyer be wary'.  Just do your homework.

And I very much agree, it seems not to be in the notional vendor's interests (truly dim unless force majeure applies) to offer so very many broadly similar cars at one time, even as individual Lots.  The real market out there is extremely restricted and this is more than a flood, it threatens to prove an obliteration. 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 15 August 2022 - 06:05.

A big chunk of the inventory is post-500 entries so that makes sense. 

What disappoints me is how some of them are completely stripped(ie no electronics) and I don't see the point in driving one of these things without their correct bits. It's not really an Indycar if you put a Judd and some Avons on it, it's just a Formula Something. Equally I'm surprised the 2002 title winner comes with a Toyota engine(minus pop-off valve) given the lease deals of the time. But perhaps it has no internals. The Mansell car with the Cosworth and the pop-off valve and dash is interesting. 

 

You'd have to really investigate which chassis you're getting, the history, and the current running spec. Which you would at these prices. I'm guessing 40-100k depending on how much someone has their heart set on a particular car. The random turn of the century Lola-Fords won't go for much, the Swifts even less, the Mansell/Mario cars might get a premium. Perhaps an enterprising McDonald's franchise owner will pick up some of the Bourdais sleds for their corporate office.

 

The weird one for me was the 89 car in 97-ish colors. I think most of the others are correct chassis-to-livery.

a T9000 in 1995 colors and finned ?????

To your list of gems I would like to add at least 2 more.

the 1983 and 1984  T700 and T800.

I know that there has been, maybe still is, at least one collector of older Lola cars who collected examples of all types. there were only 3 T700s and 5 T800s built so for the collectors of the Lola brand, a rare opportunity to get one of the rarest models they might been searching for. And the '84 is one of only 2 T800's ever that started a 500.

The Sterling going rate for once genuinely raced obsolescent Formula 1 cars, less engine, probably less gearbox too but otherwise rigged as show cars and externally looking complete, seems to be anything between £12-£15,000 and £30-40,000 dependent upon associated driver and race result history.  Points-scoring cars sell better than non-scorers, podium-finish cars rather better still, and pole, fastest-lap and/or race winning-chassis generally best of all. The long-term possibility of also acquiring a suitable engine/gearbox/power unit/drivetrain could also enhance perceived market value.

 

But with recent hybrid designs that is vanishingly unlikely.  The moment a modern-era car is switched off and its power unit stilled at the end of its last outing is really the moment of death.  The power unit most often returns to the supplier - and is itself consigned to the scrapper, or is internally stripped of anything regarded as having a residual value and itself becomes a display item.

 

The more attractive of the 'lesser' show cars would be those assembled around a chassis whose history included some particularly memorable, contemporarily much publicised, single performance or incident - would-be owners buying into possession of that particular 'landmark' car. 

 

At the bottom end of the scale, within the era of moulded composite chassis, one has to be wary of those tubs built solely for promotional 'show car' display purposes and therefore never really raced, practised, tested...nor even ever run under their own power.

 

As ever, when buying such an engineless old significant-class racing car -  it's very much a case of caveat emptor, 'buyer beware', which is really better expressed (much less dramatically but far more sensibly) as simply 'buyer be wary'.  Just do your homework.

 

And I very much agree, it seems not to be in the notional vendor's interests (truly dim unless force majeure applies) to offer so very many broadly similar cars at one time, even as individual Lots.  The real market out there is extremely restricted and this is more than a flood, it threatens to prove an obliteration. 

 

DCN

Having probated more than a few estates in my days as a lawyer, there are a number of reasons why this sale is happening as it is.  These cars must take up an enormous amount of space to store.  They have to be maintained, safeguarded and insured.   The storage facility is costing money for utilities, taxes, maintenance, and insurance.  All of which costs a lot of money to provide for non-productive assets, money that is not going to the beneficiaries.  Since there are no surviving children, I assume that the beneficiaries are either a number of more distant relatives, friends, or some charitable foundation.  Either way, the beneficiaries are going to want nice, simple, easy to protect and value, cold hard cash.  And, soon.  As I said in my earlier post, no one is going to want 1 and 1/2 Lolas as their share of the estate.  While I would agree that unloading this many cars all at once could depress the market, at least it depresses the market for all the cars, so everyone gets equal treatment, while avoiding the ongoing expense of storing this collection.  Also this avoids the risks to the estate administrators of selling the cars off piecemeal and being subject to claims of malfeasance by beneficiaries claiming they sold thus and such car at a low point in the market, or held onto some cars too long while draining the estate of the funds needed to house, maintain, insure, etc., the cars as they are slowly fed into the market.   Corporate fiduciaries, as the Haas estate probably has, are inherently nervous about any asset that is not a nice simple bank account.  On top of all of that, whatever court is overseeing the estate is going to want to see the estate closed in some reasonably short period of time.

Well, Indy Cars aren´t valued all that high at least in Europe. They are too big and heavy to be really competitive in racing such as BOSS GP so there is no market for them. Probably only for a few enthusiasts for demo runs or trackdays.

Oh my goodness - such a contrast in the previous two posts!  

In my view any decent auction house (do you sense my partiality?) would itself take responsibility to accommodate such a large collection of estate-settlement cars for disposal over time, and would itself offer no more than two to four of the more important, better-history/better-condition ones at a time, while seeking speedy private-agreement disposal of the less appealing ones.  What price 'Corporate fiduciaries', eh?   And what effective price to the core client?

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 15 August 2022 - 15:54.

Pretend you are either of these two beneficiaries, or the tax authorities:

1.Haas' nephew:  "Uncle Carl wanted me to have the money to (buy a house) (pay off my student loans), when can I have my money?"

   Fiduciary:  "How would you like a Lola?"

2.  University of North Carolina Foundation:  "We've just hired a professor to fill the Carl Haas Chair of Cigar Tobacco Cultivation, when can we have our money?"

    Fiduciary:  "How would you like a Swift?"

3.  Internal Revenue Service Estate Tax Division:  "Pay us or else we whack you with penalties for late payment!"

    Fiduciary:   "How about two Lolas, a Swift, both Panoz, the XK120, and Nigel's steering wheel?"

That's why the big sale.

Edited by Tom Glowacki, 17 August 2022 - 01:04.

Sometimes you just get bored of stuff. I have some old Lancias in the garage that I'm never going to do anything with. I'm not giving them away but if someone wants to throw some money my way you can have 'em.

I don't have a garage but if anybody wants to throw some money my way, feel free...

Do any of the rich wankers in BOSS GP really care how competitive their machines are? Not exactly a serious motor racing series is it?

I mentioned the BOSS GP as  it´s the only series you could race an IndyCar in Europe, no idea of the situation in the US.

No idea of the motivation of the BOSS GP drivers either regarding the choice of their race cars. Didn´t they mostly run GP2 and Formula Nissan/Renault 3.5 cars? Not exactly the choice when you want to make an impression with the history of your car but not bad when you want to drive a high powered Formula car plus you have the benefit of finding spare parts easy.

Regarding the folk you mention,.. well, I guess they were always around.

I mentioned the BOSS GP as  it´s the only series you could race an IndyCar in Europe, no idea of the situation in the US.

No idea of the motivation of the BOSS GP drivers either regarding the choice of their race cars. Didn´t they mostly run GP2 and Formula Nissan/Renault 3.5 cars? Not exactly the choice when you want to make an impression with the history of your car but not bad when you want to drive a high powered Formula car plus you have the benefit of finding spare parts easy.

 

Regarding the folk you mention,.. well, I guess they were always around.

Well that’s what I’m getting at. They run just about whatever that can get their hands on.

Actually looking into it, the series has three classes, and old Indycars are common, so some could find a bit of use there. Also surprised to learn that actual racing driver Rinus Veekay did a few races alongside his US F2000 and Pro Mazda seasons in 2017/18. But I guess it shows the level of rich hobbyist involved that he came 2nd overall in a GP2 car while competing in only half the races in 2017.

'H' or 'h' to personal taste, dependent upon context, I feel.  

 

In any case, it would also largely depend upon what degree of importance or significance one attaches to 'them'.  Are they important to you and to like-minded enthusiasts, or are 'we' in such a minority that such cars are just obsolete, by-gone, technologically surpassed, regulation-expired irrelevancies?

 

DCN 

So as in ''Shrapnel'' or ''shrapnel'' to personal taste, dependent on context, I assume.

Edited by Red Socks, 16 August 2022 - 09:28.

I imagine there are several beneficiaries, and they've collectively decided to offload all the cars at once. Assuming this *is* the entirety of Carl's collection. 

As has already been pointed out, in situ it's a wonderful collection but it is costing money. Must take a huge storage facility which may be rented or mortgaged and probably incurs some sort of property tax..... Security staff. Sufficient staff to at least keep the cars and building reasonably clean. Insurance...electricity and probably half a dozen ongoing expenses we don't know about. It is indeed likely that a specialist lawyer and auction house will have explained various options available for selling the cars and perhaps it's taken this long for various entities to agree on the course of action. They may not get the very best dollar price, but they're going to get a good amount of money quickly which can then be spent or invested more conventionally. 

It's understood by all concerned that should I die before the spousal units, my record collection becomes a funeral fund.

Carl Haas Imports still exists they could just be stacked in the corner. A lot of these have had their guts ripped out and frames installed so they can be show cars. They're not being kept in climate controlled pods or having their engines run monthly to keep them in fine fettle. One of the cars actually looked a bit dirty.

Yes, I'm thinking the only cost incurred by this collection would be storage costs and not much else. As has been stated, most of them are engineless/gearboxless, so it's not as if they employ a mechanic to keep them in running order. Put it like this, I'd willingly store one or two of them in my garage for them...

Get the tub and use it for your home office. Nice reclining seat. Replace the gearshift with a trackpad and you're golden.

How bout a Race Sim cockpit???  

Well that’s what I’m getting at. They run just about whatever that can get their hands on.

 

Actually looking into it, the series has three classes, and old Indycars are common, so some could find a bit of use there. Also surprised to learn that actual racing driver Rinus Veekay did a few races alongside his US F2000 and Pro Mazda seasons in 2017/18. But I guess it shows the level of rich hobbyist involved that he came 2nd overall in a GP2 car while competing in only half the races in 2017.

I wouldn´t want to dismiss all that rich folk as w.....s, some of them are very likeable persons others not so but that´s the case in general, isn´t it?

For sure the limiting factor in most of the cars is located between the steering wheel and the pedals but isn´t that the case in all of the non professional racing series? And who wants to blame them for it as they do that as a hobby and don´t drive their cars on a regular basis which you had to do, to build up the confidence to get the best out of you and the car.

The target of your offending comment might be the folk who´d chosen motorsport als their current playing field to impress their entourage but that is mostly short lived.

Being rich doesn´t mean you are not a hard core racing enthusiast, I´m happy for everyone who is sharing his passion showing and presenting these wonderful cars we otherwise only would see in a museum.

Edited by funformula, 16 August 2022 - 14:46.

I wouldn´t want to dismiss all that rich folk as w.....s, some of them are very likeable persons others not so but that´s the case in general, isn´t it?

For sure the limiting factor in most of the cars is located between the steering wheel and the pedals but isn´t that the case in all of the non professional racing series? And who wants to blame them for it as they do that as a hobby and don´t drive their cars on a regular basis which you had to do, to build up the confidence to get the best out of you and the car.

The target of your offending comment might be the folk who´d chosen motorsport als their current playing field to impress their entourage but that is mostly short lived.

Being rich doesn´t mean you are not a hard core racing enthusiast, I´m happy for everyone who is sharing his passion showing and presenting these wonderful cars we otherwise only would see in a museum.

Go back to the original comment. It wasn’t that these cars wouldn’t be competitive in BOSS so nobody would be interested in buying one. My response is that they’re hobbyists that aren’t that fussed as long as they’re having fun in a powerful single seater.

Oh my goodness - such a contrast in the previous two posts!


DCN

Edited by jonpollak, 20 September 2022 - 23:04.

Re show car values.  In earlier post above I airily declared:

The Sterling going rate for once genuinely raced obsolescent Formula 1 cars, less engine, probably less gearbox too but otherwise rigged as show cars and externally looking complete, seems to be anything between £12-£15,000 and £30-40,000 dependent upon associated driver and race result history.  Points-scoring cars sell better than non-scorers, podium-finish cars rather better still, and pole, fastest-lap and/or race winning-chassis generally best of all. The long-term possibility of also acquiring a suitable engine/gearbox/power unit/drivetrain could also enhance perceived market value.

Just to put me firmly in my place - because the market itself always decides spot values - Bonhams' Goodwood Revival Sale saw the 2015 Force India VJM08 Formula 1 car in engineless display condition sell for £78,200 including buyer's premium, while its sister 2011 Force India VJM04 F1 display car went for £69,000.  The VJM08 was ex-Pérez, the VJM04 ex-Hulkenberg - which perhaps explains much of the difference in prices realised.

DCN

Sometimes you just get bored of stuff. I have some old Lancias in the garage that I'm never going to do anything with. I'm not giving them away but if someone wants to throw some money my way you can have 'em.

Someone should tell Martin Buckley (Classic & Sportscar) about this !!!

I've often wondered about the size of the "gentlemen" drivers of cars that were built for the likes of Moss and Clark. Plus of course, we all wear fireproof suits which adds to our bulk!  I was at the Algarve Classic a few years ago and they were literally shoehorning the driver into a Lotus 24. I am not sure what his exit speed would be!

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 23 September 2022 - 16:05.

I was at Indy the last year AJ Foyt drove (1992). To this day I cannot understand how on Earth he squeezed in to that Lola. The cockpit opening just seemed to be brim full of Foyt.

Hey Nigel,

Didn't you pay any attention to him in 1993?

How AJ ruined what should have been Rick's Day in the sun at the Speedway after his retirement and how all of that was of no importance any longer or on anybody's mind since AJ squeezed himself in a T9300 for his farewell lap and out of the blue announced his retirement as Indycar driver and made any eent of pole day that happened thereafter insignificant?

Even then, it could be worse: Imagine if Foyt had wanted to take a ride in the 1990 March-Porsche of his stepson  John Andretti!

 Imagine if Foyt had wanted to take a ride in the 1990 March-Porsche of his stepson  John Andretti!

Stepson? Not that I am aware. That implies that Foyt married Andretti's mother, which would have been news to Aldo.