Christian Danner at 1986 Canadian Grand Prix

With lots of talk at last Sunday's Italian Grand Prix about Nyck de Vries driving for two different Grand Prix teams over the weekend. Aston Martin in first free practice and Williams in race, and about who was the last driver to achieve this before him.

Most appear to think it was Harald Ertl at 1978 Italian GP, who failed to pre-qualify an Ensign N177 car, and also failed to qualify an ATS HS1 car.

Christian Danner was due to drive for the Arrows team at 1978 Canadian Grand Prix, but contractual dispute meant that he he raced an Osella FA1F car in race. Autocourse Annual in chassis log suggests that Danner did go out in practice in an Arrows A8 car, Its words state briefly!.

Danner is not shown in official times for qualifying 1 or 2 session, so if it did happen then it would have been in free practice 1.

Does any one have proof that Christian Danner did drive the Arrows car in free practice ?

It certainly wasn't in 1978. 88 maybe? 

1986. 

 

Autocourse report states that he didn't get to drive the car. 

 

There was no Free Practice at that time. All sessions counted for grid positions. 

Edited by opplock, 12 September 2022 - 08:01.

Rolf Stommelen at the German GP 1976.

Edited by ReWind, 12 September 2022 - 08:28.

1986. 

 

Autocourse report states that he didn't get to drive the car. 

 

There was no Free Practice at that time. All sessions counted for grid positions. 

My embarrassing mistake it was 1986 Canadian Grand Prix.

I accept that only two official qualifying sessions (as I stated) but other practice sessions did take place on Friday and Saturday morning, these were named strangley 'Untimed Practice' but they were timed by Olivetti/Longines. In Autocourse Annual, Canadian GP, page 240 (Entries and Practice Times) at foot of statistics it reads "Friday morning, Saturday morning and Sunday morning sessions not officially recorded" although they do publish the Sunday morning times (also known as warm up session). I do have the British GP Untimed sheets issued by Olivetti/Longines so can see that drivers were timed during these periods..

 

With regards to if Christian Danner practiced the Arrows car at Montreal I looked in Autocourse Annual, page 228 'Chassis Log Book' and in section on Arrows car it reads

Chassis A8-2 "for Danner at Montreal (Briefly!)"

Autosport reported that Danner got to the end of the pit lane in the Arrows during the first untimed session on the Friday. By implication, therefore, (although not actually stated) he wasn’t allowed out on track.

Motoring News said that the driver change needed to be officially finalised by 18.00 on the evening before the first qualifying session, but Osella didn’t arrive in time to sign the relevant form.

Going somewhat off topic here... I wondered how many times a driver competitively drove for two different teams/constructors during the same WC Grand Prix event.

I am only listing times were a driver was entered or 'supposed' to drive one car and went one to drive another. As It was not uncommon for a driver to do a few practice laps in a 'rivals'  car in the 50's and 60's.

I'm doing this from memory so I might have missed some obvious ones but below is a list of the ones that came to mind. 

 

51 07 29 - Nürburgring - Paul Pietsch - Practice Enrico Plate's 4CLT - Race Alfetta 159

58 08 03 - Boavista - Cliff Allison - Practice Lotus 16 - Race Maserati 250F 

61 07 15 - Aintree - Stirling Moss - Race Lotus 18/21 - Race Ferguson P99   * both cars entered by Rob Walker

63 05 26 - Monaco - Jack Brabham - Practice Brabham BT3 - Race Lotus 25

66 07 03 - Reims - Jo Bonnier - Practice Cooper T77-ATS - Race Brabham BT22

68 11 03 - Mexico City - Jo Bonnier - Practice McLaren M5A - Race Honda RA301

78 09 10 - Monza - Harald Ertl - Pre Qualifying Ensign N177 - Qualifying - ATS HS1

 

Jackie Stewart also did this a few times in 1970 driving either his March 701 and Tyrrell 001 either in practice or the race.

Edited by Jahn1234567890, 12 September 2022 - 18:58.

Moss raced the Lotus and Ferguson at Aintree, not Silverstone.

Moss raced the Lotus and Ferguson at Aintree, not Silverstone.

 

I fixed it in my 'list'. Sloppy from my part.. That's the danger of doing this from memory...

Then there was Stuart Allison at Porto in 1958.  He was entered in a Lotus, but he either crashed it or it broke down - I forget which.  He then transferred to a spare Centro Sud Maserati 250F.

Edited by D-Type, 12 September 2022 - 12:14.

Autosport reported that Danner got to the end of the pit lane in the Arrows during the first untimed session on the Friday. By implication, therefore, (although not actually stated) he wasn’t allowed out on track.

Motoring News said that the driver change needed to be officially finalised by 18.00 on the evening before the first qualifying session, but Osella didn’t arrive in time to sign the relevant form.

Thanks Tim.

Privately via a friend who has been in touch with Christian Danner, confirms by email, that he did not drive on circuit, he sat in car, with new seat made, but not allowed on circuit. 

Then there was Stuart Allison at Porto in 1958.  He was entered in a Lotus, but he either crashed it or it broke down - I forget which.  He then transferred to a spare Centro Sud Maserati 250F.

I have not come across a Grand Prix driver called Stuart Allison.

I think you mean Cliff Allison.

Probably best to contact Chris direct:   office@christian-danner.net.    0049 8801 914984

 

Most approachable, perfect English, (and, dare I say it, best looking) of the German drivers.

 

78 09 10 - Monza - Harald Ertl - Pre Qualifying Ensign N177 - Qualifying - ATS HS1

 

 

 

Pre-Qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix was held on 3rd September, one week before the GP meeting so it does not really class as two cars in one GP weekend

Pre-Qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix was held on 3rd September, one week before the GP meeting so it does not really class as two cars in one GP weekend

 

Then no Friday pre-qualifying counts either because Friday isn't on the GP weekend. 

There is a photograph of Danner sitting in the # 17 Arrows in the Montréal pits in "Grand Prix International" magazine no. 105, p. 47.

Then there was Stuart Allison at Porto in 1958.  He was entered in a Lotus, but he either crashed it or it broke down - I forget which.  He then transferred to a spare Centro Sud Maserati 250F.

 

Thank you - This is one I had forgotten about. Allison wrecked his Lotus 16 and drove one of the vacant 250F's from Centro Sud. I have added this one to the list. If I remember correctly Troy Ruttman was supposed to drive but did not show up. Or something along those lines.

 

 

Pre-Qualifying for the Italian Grand Prix was held on 3rd September, one week before the GP meeting so it does not really class as two cars in one GP weekend

 

Thank you for pointing this out. I was aware of this regarding Pre-Qualifying at Monza. To avoid confusion I have changed the word to event. Weekend is a confusing term to use for this anyway as not all GP's were held over a 'weekend' as it is done nowadays.

Edited by Jahn1234567890, 12 September 2022 - 19:05.

I have not come across a Grand Prix driver called Stuart Allison.

I think you mean Cliff Allison.

Whoops!  Stuart Allison was a rally driver.

There is a photograph of Danner sitting in the # 17 Arrows in the Montréal pits in "Grand Prix International" magazine no. 105, p. 47.

The car was pushed back to the box and Christian got out saying "Looks like I have to drive the Osella"..

Graham Hill drove a Brabham in first practice for the 1969 British GP as his Lotus hadn't turned up. The Brabham was spare as Jack had broken his ankle in testing so Ickx was the sole works entry. I think Hill was originally entered in a Lotus 63 which he may have driven in another practice session. He then 'borrowed back' the Lotus 49 that Chapman had sold to Jo Bonnier for the race. Bonnier entered the race in the 63 as an Ecurie Bonnier entry.

If Nyck de Vries indeed is going to test for Alpine as well, he will have tested for four different F1-teams in one year: Mercedes, Williams, Aston Martin and Alpine. From memory, I can't remember a driver doing likewise. Perhaps this is better for the crazy stat-thread...

There was a lot of shuffling at Monaco in the 50s.

 

In 1955 , André Simon started practice in his Maserati but was co-opted into the Mercedes-Benz team after Hans Hermann's accident.  At the same race Uhlenhaut drove both a Mercedes and Moss's Maserati in practice.  

 

Two years later, the Ferraris didn't turn up for first practice and neither did Brabham and Leston who were entered in Coopers so Peter Collins did a few laps in both cars.

 

In 1958, Moss, apparently annoyed that Vanwall wouldn't let him drive the car he wanted, did a few laps in Rob Walker's Cooper.

 

In 1959, Moss briefly tried a BRM.