Schumacher: "If I had chosen for another top team, which has offered me a contract more than once, I would have won the World Championship two times more than I do now".
This must be Williams offer Michael is discussing. He just tries to make it sound like McLaren one. I trust McLaren denies this bullshit.
Did Schumacher imply 4x WDC at Williams or McLaren?
Started by
RaggedEdge
, Mar 06 2000 21:38
52 replies to this topic
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#2
Czesc
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Posted 06 March 2000 - 21:44
Only at Williams he could have gotten the undisputed #1 seat, which, it seems, is the only way Schumi can work.
Or maybe he just thinks he's so much better than MH that he would've certainly beat him even with equal status (or actually with a lesser status since Mika has always been Ron's godson).
Or maybe he just thinks he's so much better than MH that he would've certainly beat him even with equal status (or actually with a lesser status since Mika has always been Ron's godson).
#3
Todd
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Posted 06 March 2000 - 22:31
RaggedEdge,
McLaren has approached him repeatedly. If you want to pretend that it isn't a question of RD being concerned that Michael is the one who could beat the Newey-Illmor-Hanky combination, just blame it on Mercedes. You KNOW that they've wanted Michael to drive their F1 car since before they had a contract to supply McLaren.
------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd
McLaren has approached him repeatedly. If you want to pretend that it isn't a question of RD being concerned that Michael is the one who could beat the Newey-Illmor-Hanky combination, just blame it on Mercedes. You KNOW that they've wanted Michael to drive their F1 car since before they had a contract to supply McLaren.
------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd
#4
RaggedEdge
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Posted 06 March 2000 - 23:04
Todd,
Michael knows that only with Williams drive in 1996-97 would he have got convincing change of winning two more WDCs.
Besides, Schumacher broke his leg in 1999 so even theoretically he could have won only one WDC at McLaren. This I think is pretty strong proof that Williams offers were what he was discussing about.
Now that Frank will never use Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve again, he could as well admit that they tried to get Schumi.
[This message has been edited by RaggedEdge (edited 03-06-2000).]
Michael knows that only with Williams drive in 1996-97 would he have got convincing change of winning two more WDCs.
Besides, Schumacher broke his leg in 1999 so even theoretically he could have won only one WDC at McLaren. This I think is pretty strong proof that Williams offers were what he was discussing about.
Now that Frank will never use Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve again, he could as well admit that they tried to get Schumi.
[This message has been edited by RaggedEdge (edited 03-06-2000).]
#5
Makarias
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Posted 06 March 2000 - 23:14
Theoretically speaking, I wouldn't have the slightest idea what would have happened if Michael had been driving for Williams and/or McLaren... I'm pretty convinced though, that he wouldn't have broken his leg in a Ferrari... Being obsessed with what might have been is not a great way to live your life, this goes for all of us.
Now that I've said this, why not join my points prediction competition? It's at
http://www.atlasf1.c...TML/006689.html
, and you know that if you don't participate, you'll go on all year long speculating about how well you would have done, becoming a royal pain in the arse for the whole BB!
Now that I've said this, why not join my points prediction competition? It's at
http://www.atlasf1.c...TML/006689.html
, and you know that if you don't participate, you'll go on all year long speculating about how well you would have done, becoming a royal pain in the arse for the whole BB!
#6
Jecko
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- 3,499 posts
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Posted 06 March 2000 - 23:18
Hey Ragged,
Do you ever post anything else besides the same old Shuey bashing topics?
Do you ever post anything else besides the same old Shuey bashing topics?
#7
The RedBaron
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- 6,593 posts
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Posted 06 March 2000 - 23:25
When it is put to Michael Schumacher that 2000 is surely the year he must bring the holy grail back to Ferrari, he replies: "It's
been the right time to win the title for the last three years."
He continues: "If you look at each of those years and see what Ferrari has achieved, it's extraordinary. We started every year
with an uncompetive car, and we fought for the championship.
All I can say is we tried our best. Remember, it's a sporting contest and you cannot predict the outcome."
The question is really asking if Michael Schumacher is wasting his career with the sport's most famous and bestfunded team.
The partnership is now entering its fifth year, so is the failure to secure a single drivers' crown evidence of an ego-trip gone
wrong? Between the lines of the answer is the suggestion of why, from Michael Schumacher's perspective, the question is
an invalid one.
Michael is what behavioural scientists would term a classic firefighter. Ensuring there was no blaze to put out is anathema
to him. He loves to fight, conquer and basks in the recognition this brings. Combine that with this talent and you can begin to
appreciate why he seems so content with his lot.
Cynics might sneer at such an idea, and point instead to the size of his pay cheque. Remember, though, that he's now
sufficiently wealthy for salary scales to be of abstract interest only. Besides, it's a cheque that both Mercedes and BMW
would be happy to match if recent rumours of a bidding war for his services are to be believed.
Ask his manager, Willi Weber, why his charge hasn't simply plugged himself into a McLaren programme then gone on to rewrite the history books and the answer is illuminating.
"He is a driver that could have won 17 races out of 16 in such a situation," he laughs. "If he jumped into the McLaren he
would be the best driver in the best car and I think he would realise immediately that he could win every race. That's no
motivation for him."
"His challenge is to try to take a team and achieve things that it isn't able to at the moment. He gets a fantastic feeling when he does something that should not be possible,
like we've seen many times in his races. Sure, it would be nice for him to win all the races, but he wouldn't get the same
satisfaction out of that."
"Nothing has ever been easy in his career, that's the way he's made it, always fighting until the last moment. It's been
hard on my nerves. That time he won the first title, I asked,'why can't you be like the other drivers and just win in a
straightforward way?' Everything is always so dramatic."
"What he is trying to do at Ferrari is what he has already done at Benetton. He took that team, built it up and gave it
a success it hadn't known before. Everything was there for him to continue and try to take a third consecutive title, but
he didn't want to do that. He wanted to start again with a new challenge."
Such a task didn't come any tougher than Ferrari, the biggest underachiever in the F1 pit lane. A morass of political in-fighting
and misguided corporate interference had been blamed for its lack of ultimate success since the late 1970's. What a glorious failure, though, its history and passionate striving striking a romantic chord, no matter how misdirected. Senna wanted to end his driving days at Ferrari.
Still, some are mystified as to why such an operation would appeal to Schumacher, a man with a very vague knownledge of the sport's history prior to his joining it. The man who,
after being followed across the line to victory by team-mate Irvine at Monaco last year, said: "I think this might be
Ferrari's first one-two." His place in history is not what turns him on. So why Maranello?
Simply, it has the biggest profile by far of any team. It formed a brilliant dramatic backdrop for his deeds. In such a place the beam of his heroics could be cast brighter and wider than anywhere else, the man in the red fire engine rushing to put out the fire.
Michael, though, is not the lone warrior Senna was. He's the ultimate team player, as long as that team is totally devoted
to him. On the surface, Ferrari did not meet this description too well, but he joined in a stronger position of power than
anyone ever had. Luca Montezemolo granted him the freedom of the city as well as full access to its bank vaults, so Schuey
transferred his close family, Ross Brawn and, in due course,Rory Byrne, to his new castle.
------------------
been the right time to win the title for the last three years."
He continues: "If you look at each of those years and see what Ferrari has achieved, it's extraordinary. We started every year
with an uncompetive car, and we fought for the championship.
All I can say is we tried our best. Remember, it's a sporting contest and you cannot predict the outcome."
The question is really asking if Michael Schumacher is wasting his career with the sport's most famous and bestfunded team.
The partnership is now entering its fifth year, so is the failure to secure a single drivers' crown evidence of an ego-trip gone
wrong? Between the lines of the answer is the suggestion of why, from Michael Schumacher's perspective, the question is
an invalid one.
Michael is what behavioural scientists would term a classic firefighter. Ensuring there was no blaze to put out is anathema
to him. He loves to fight, conquer and basks in the recognition this brings. Combine that with this talent and you can begin to
appreciate why he seems so content with his lot.
Cynics might sneer at such an idea, and point instead to the size of his pay cheque. Remember, though, that he's now
sufficiently wealthy for salary scales to be of abstract interest only. Besides, it's a cheque that both Mercedes and BMW
would be happy to match if recent rumours of a bidding war for his services are to be believed.
Ask his manager, Willi Weber, why his charge hasn't simply plugged himself into a McLaren programme then gone on to rewrite the history books and the answer is illuminating.
"He is a driver that could have won 17 races out of 16 in such a situation," he laughs. "If he jumped into the McLaren he
would be the best driver in the best car and I think he would realise immediately that he could win every race. That's no
motivation for him."
"His challenge is to try to take a team and achieve things that it isn't able to at the moment. He gets a fantastic feeling when he does something that should not be possible,
like we've seen many times in his races. Sure, it would be nice for him to win all the races, but he wouldn't get the same
satisfaction out of that."
"Nothing has ever been easy in his career, that's the way he's made it, always fighting until the last moment. It's been
hard on my nerves. That time he won the first title, I asked,'why can't you be like the other drivers and just win in a
straightforward way?' Everything is always so dramatic."
"What he is trying to do at Ferrari is what he has already done at Benetton. He took that team, built it up and gave it
a success it hadn't known before. Everything was there for him to continue and try to take a third consecutive title, but
he didn't want to do that. He wanted to start again with a new challenge."
Such a task didn't come any tougher than Ferrari, the biggest underachiever in the F1 pit lane. A morass of political in-fighting
and misguided corporate interference had been blamed for its lack of ultimate success since the late 1970's. What a glorious failure, though, its history and passionate striving striking a romantic chord, no matter how misdirected. Senna wanted to end his driving days at Ferrari.
Still, some are mystified as to why such an operation would appeal to Schumacher, a man with a very vague knownledge of the sport's history prior to his joining it. The man who,
after being followed across the line to victory by team-mate Irvine at Monaco last year, said: "I think this might be
Ferrari's first one-two." His place in history is not what turns him on. So why Maranello?
Simply, it has the biggest profile by far of any team. It formed a brilliant dramatic backdrop for his deeds. In such a place the beam of his heroics could be cast brighter and wider than anywhere else, the man in the red fire engine rushing to put out the fire.
Michael, though, is not the lone warrior Senna was. He's the ultimate team player, as long as that team is totally devoted
to him. On the surface, Ferrari did not meet this description too well, but he joined in a stronger position of power than
anyone ever had. Luca Montezemolo granted him the freedom of the city as well as full access to its bank vaults, so Schuey
transferred his close family, Ross Brawn and, in due course,Rory Byrne, to his new castle.
------------------
#8
RaggedEdge
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Posted 06 March 2000 - 23:26
Jecko,
I tend to agree with Schumacher, if he implies that he could have won the 1996 and 1997 WDC titles with Williams.
Is this bashing?
I find Schumacher's statement interesting, that he should leave the team name out. I am just trying to clarify this. Is that insulting to you or Schumacher?
I tend to agree with Schumacher, if he implies that he could have won the 1996 and 1997 WDC titles with Williams.
Is this bashing?
I find Schumacher's statement interesting, that he should leave the team name out. I am just trying to clarify this. Is that insulting to you or Schumacher?
#9
Todd
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- 18,936 posts
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Posted 06 March 2000 - 23:35
This must be Williams offer Michael is discussing. He just tries to make it sound like McLaren one. I trust McLaren denies this bullshit.
Is this bashing?
I find Schumacher's statement interesting, that he should leave the team name out. I am just trying to clarify this. Is that insulting to you or Schumacher?
You accused him of being misleading when you said "he just tries to make it sound like McLaren." That is bashing. So is calling his statement "bullshit." You also exposed the silly lengths you go to in order to attack Schumacher when you said he wouldn't have won the WDC in a McLaren in '99 because of his broken leg. Can you at least admit that you used a ridiculous lack of logic when you made that remark?
------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd
#10
RaggedEdge
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Posted 06 March 2000 - 23:47
Todd,
OK, so you are sure then Michael was discussing McLaren offer. Why the hell be cagey about it? Just tell it to the world.
.. Unless my interpretation is correct and he was sure about Williams offers and his potential to scoop 2 WDCs with them, but has no solid ground to claim that about McLaren?
OK, so you are sure then Michael was discussing McLaren offer. Why the hell be cagey about it? Just tell it to the world.
.. Unless my interpretation is correct and he was sure about Williams offers and his potential to scoop 2 WDCs with them, but has no solid ground to claim that about McLaren?
#11
The RedBaron
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- 6,593 posts
- Joined: April 99
Member
Posted 06 March 2000 - 23:57
Mercedes gave MS the break to start his racing caree, and its no secret that one day they would like him to drive for them again.
Regardless of what MS says or gets up to, have you ever seen Norbert Haug publically slate Michael....I don't think so. My gut feeling is that MS will end his career with Mercedes at some point. DC's position at Maclaren is vunerable -look at his record.
Regardless of what MS says or gets up to, have you ever seen Norbert Haug publically slate Michael....I don't think so. My gut feeling is that MS will end his career with Mercedes at some point. DC's position at Maclaren is vunerable -look at his record.
#12
JJP
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- 379 posts
- Joined: April 99
Member
Posted 07 March 2000 - 00:11
The things I love about Willi Weber are his modesty and impartial views about Michael. NOT!.
#13
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 00:13
Todd,
In any case, there are far far more uncertainties about Michael winning 2 WDCs with McLaren 1998-99 than there are uncertainties about him winning 2 WDCs in Williams 1996-97, don't you agree?
Schumi was out of six races (or is it seven?) in 1999 season because of broken leg. Implying that he would have won the 1999 WDC in McLaren is not that far removed from Mika claiming that he would have won the 1993 WDC in Williams, as he was offered, but instead only raced three times that year in McLaren.
Without making this a judgement call over Michael's ability to judge his potential to win WDC in hypothetical situations, I am still interested whether of you think Michael was talking about Williams or Mclaren ?
Surely he was talking AT LEAST about Williams, right?
In any case, there are far far more uncertainties about Michael winning 2 WDCs with McLaren 1998-99 than there are uncertainties about him winning 2 WDCs in Williams 1996-97, don't you agree?
Schumi was out of six races (or is it seven?) in 1999 season because of broken leg. Implying that he would have won the 1999 WDC in McLaren is not that far removed from Mika claiming that he would have won the 1993 WDC in Williams, as he was offered, but instead only raced three times that year in McLaren.
Without making this a judgement call over Michael's ability to judge his potential to win WDC in hypothetical situations, I am still interested whether of you think Michael was talking about Williams or Mclaren ?
Surely he was talking AT LEAST about Williams, right?
#14
Makarias
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 00:21
The RedBaron is back! Welcome back, Baron!
#15
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 00:26
I must clarify one point here - surely Mercedes would absolutely love to have Michael in McLaren, and surely have tried to influence McLaren to take him on board.
This would be a great unification. A Mika/Michael or Michael/Mika pairing would be great battle.
As it is very clear that it would be great battle, surely Michael is bright enough not to claim that he would have won it twice in 1998-99. On the other hand, in Damon Hill vs Michael Schumacher 1996-97 fight, there are much less uncertainties involved. At least I think so.
Plus having hypothetically won with Williams in 1996 and 1997, hypothetically Schumi could have convinced Renault to go on in F1, giving Schumi hypothetically more chances for WDC.
Hypothetically joining McLaren in 1998 would have required 100% success rate against Mika, which is too much to claim for anybody else but Willi Weber. Hypothetically Michael could of course have assumed that Mika would have driven a Minardi in those years, though.
This is very much in line with one of my very much non-Schumi bashing topics which claimed that Michael would have been 4 times WDC had he joined Williams in 1996. The topic was called "Michael Schumacher - Easy Ride or Challenge?"
[This message has been edited by RaggedEdge (edited 03-06-2000).]
This would be a great unification. A Mika/Michael or Michael/Mika pairing would be great battle.
As it is very clear that it would be great battle, surely Michael is bright enough not to claim that he would have won it twice in 1998-99. On the other hand, in Damon Hill vs Michael Schumacher 1996-97 fight, there are much less uncertainties involved. At least I think so.
Plus having hypothetically won with Williams in 1996 and 1997, hypothetically Schumi could have convinced Renault to go on in F1, giving Schumi hypothetically more chances for WDC.
Hypothetically joining McLaren in 1998 would have required 100% success rate against Mika, which is too much to claim for anybody else but Willi Weber. Hypothetically Michael could of course have assumed that Mika would have driven a Minardi in those years, though.
This is very much in line with one of my very much non-Schumi bashing topics which claimed that Michael would have been 4 times WDC had he joined Williams in 1996. The topic was called "Michael Schumacher - Easy Ride or Challenge?"
[This message has been edited by RaggedEdge (edited 03-06-2000).]
#16
Todd
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 00:28
Schumi was out of six races (or is it seven?) in 1999 season because of broken leg.
I can't believe you still haven't recognized that he wouldn't have missed the 6 races following Silverstone if he had been in a McLaren. If this is a recent quote, then I think you can assume he was talking about McLaren. This is the end of my participation in this discussion. While Schumacher's remarks may come off as arrogant, there is a factual basis for his comments if he is talking about McLaren as they did offer him the ride and all the money plus there would not have been an external challenge to McLaren without Michael at another team.
------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd
#17
mono-posto
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 00:35
RedBaron,
I liked your post alot, but one small point. Michael is not totally lost to the history of the sport. That comment about Monaco '99 being the'first Ferrari 1-2' has been taken out of context more times than I can think of. He was of course referring to the first Monaco 1-2 in which he was very much correct in saying.
Thanks
------------------
"If I had to live my life over again, I'd be a plumber."
-Albert Einstien
I liked your post alot, but one small point. Michael is not totally lost to the history of the sport. That comment about Monaco '99 being the'first Ferrari 1-2' has been taken out of context more times than I can think of. He was of course referring to the first Monaco 1-2 in which he was very much correct in saying.
Thanks
------------------
"If I had to live my life over again, I'd be a plumber."
-Albert Einstien
#18
Jecko
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- 3,499 posts
- Joined: January 99
Member
Posted 07 March 2000 - 00:45
The whole point Ragged I was making was proved by Todd. Anytime there is a thread written by you one can easily presume that it will be a shuey bash in some shape or form. Your defense of this argument was rather laughable, but if you insist that your comments aren't Shuey bashing then go right ahead.
#19
RaggedEdge
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- Joined: November 98
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 00:49
It does not sound like Michael's style to write off Mika's driving abilities since he has refused to do that earlier. That does not sound right to me.
On the other hand, he has written off Damon and Jacques in the past, so I am still convinced Michael referred to Williams. Perhaps a journalist will ask him to clarify this in Melbourne.
On the other hand, he has written off Damon and Jacques in the past, so I am still convinced Michael referred to Williams. Perhaps a journalist will ask him to clarify this in Melbourne.
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#20
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 00:55
Jecko and Todd, in hypothetical world, Michael paired with Mika in McLaren would not hypothetically broken his leg in 1999 and would hypothetically have had an excellent possibility to challenge for WDC in both 1998 and 1999. Happy now?
another top team to me is very clearly Williams, why else not say McLaren?
I would have won is very strong statement and does not easily fit into my understanding of Michael's respect towards Mika but easily fits to my understanding about Michael's respect towards Damon and Jacques.
another top team to me is very clearly Williams, why else not say McLaren?
I would have won is very strong statement and does not easily fit into my understanding of Michael's respect towards Mika but easily fits to my understanding about Michael's respect towards Damon and Jacques.
#21
The RedBaron
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 01:34
Hi Makarias, yes i'm back but maybe not to the same extent as in 1999. I've switched jobs since then and I don't seem to have anytime during the day to be able to visit Atlas 
. My contributions will have to wait
for the night time.
I'm more optimistic about Michael then in the last 3 years, I really do believe he will
crack it this time barring injuries.
His main rivals for the WCC will be Mika, HHF and Rubens. Watch Rubens however he could spring a surprise this season.
. My contributions will have to waitfor the night time.
I'm more optimistic about Michael then in the last 3 years, I really do believe he will
crack it this time barring injuries.
His main rivals for the WCC will be Mika, HHF and Rubens. Watch Rubens however he could spring a surprise this season.
#22
The RedBaron
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 01:37
You might be right about that Mono-Posto, I can't believe he could have missed that point.
#23
The RedBaron
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 01:43
Haha Ragged Edge - still in the thick of things eh, I've come back after 5 months and your still writing anti-Schuey propoganda.....oh well somethings never change. Look forward to jausting with you ;)
#24
The Swerve
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 01:54
I had to defend this BB the other day to some other F1 fans when they were slagging it off.
The comments made basically went along the lines of that they believed not being a Schumacher fan at Atlas F1 was akin to blasphemy. They said that it was impossible to post anything that is slightly critical or even anything a tiny bit negative about him at all without getting flamed.
Obviously I defended our beloved board.....
The comments made basically went along the lines of that they believed not being a Schumacher fan at Atlas F1 was akin to blasphemy. They said that it was impossible to post anything that is slightly critical or even anything a tiny bit negative about him at all without getting flamed.
Obviously I defended our beloved board.....
#25
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 01:58
RedBaron, welcome back, although I strongly object against you implying that I write anti-Michael propaganda, more like pro-Mika propaganda, if any.
If Michael will have a dominating season in the best car in 2000, so be it. We will know soon enough. Perhaps he will be a 3x WDC in the real world.
If Michael will have a dominating season in the best car in 2000, so be it. We will know soon enough. Perhaps he will be a 3x WDC in the real world.
#26
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 02:05
The Swerve, you have a point there.
I think it is tiring and boring having to justify one's motives. It is better to discuss facts or opinions than having to reply to personal attacks claiming some malicious intent behind simple discussion.
Jecko and Todd, how would you react that if every time I reply to your topics or comments, I would also add the repetative and non-productive question of "why you are writing that comment from your obvious Schumi-fanatic point of view?"
Get a life.
I think it is tiring and boring having to justify one's motives. It is better to discuss facts or opinions than having to reply to personal attacks claiming some malicious intent behind simple discussion.
Jecko and Todd, how would you react that if every time I reply to your topics or comments, I would also add the repetative and non-productive question of "why you are writing that comment from your obvious Schumi-fanatic point of view?"
Get a life.
#27
magnum
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 02:14
Monoposto $ RedBAron, I seem to recall that the Schumacher blunder about a 1-2 was not said after Monaco, it was said after winning in France. So ur comments are bizarre ... as for the quote that started this whole thread, maybe it is due to Schumacher finally realising that he will never become, or even get close to, the record books in terms if being number one, xoupled with the fact (and realisation on Schumacher's part)that Hakkinen may just be about to elevate himself into the most successful driver of their generation. For a man with Schumi's undoubted driving talents, coupled with his largess in regards his arrogance and ego,this must be a bitter pill to swallow. So speculating on what could have been is a route long taken by sportsmen and women ... "I could have been a contender, Charlie, 'stead of ano-good bum."
#28
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 02:21
Since Todd is not aware of the source and timing of this Schumacher quote, it was from http://www.autorace.com
Sorry about not sourcing it.
[This message has been edited by RaggedEdge (edited 03-06-2000).]
Sorry about not sourcing it.
[This message has been edited by RaggedEdge (edited 03-06-2000).]
#29
MrAerodynamicist
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- 14,226 posts
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 02:27
Now while Hill is definitely not up for another go, I was always under the impression that the Team still had a sweat spot for Jaxs. Don't forget, he left for BAR. He didn't get non-resigned as for Hill, Mansell, etcNow that Frank will never use Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve again, he could as well admit that they tried to get Schumi.
------------------
MrA
All hail King Jaxs
"Have you wondered, that perhaps, all the world's lunatics are in one place?"
#30
kenny
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- 2,030 posts
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 02:31
IF...IF...IF
it is all bulsh*t.
You cannot know what would have happened.
This is a stupid topic...sorry for the one who started this.
;)
it is all bulsh*t.
You cannot know what would have happened.
This is a stupid topic...sorry for the one who started this.
;)
#31
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 02:39
kenny, you mean Schumacher?
MrA, yeah, maybe Jacques will return - you are right to say he made the decision to leave Williams.
MrA, yeah, maybe Jacques will return - you are right to say he made the decision to leave Williams.
#32
Rich
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 02:53
RaggedEdge, maybe I'm missing the point here, but what does it matter which team he's referring to? And why would McLaren deny a quote that doesn't even mention them?
#33
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 03:04
Rich,
Of course it matters which team he is referring to. What if Jacques came up with a statement saying, well I would have won another WDC if I had taken one of my offers in a "top team". Wouldn't that have been pretty loose statement?
On personal level (from my criminal Mika-oriented point of view) the statement is insulting if Michael means McLaren, but not so if he means (as I believe) Williams.
Of course it matters which team he is referring to. What if Jacques came up with a statement saying, well I would have won another WDC if I had taken one of my offers in a "top team". Wouldn't that have been pretty loose statement?
On personal level (from my criminal Mika-oriented point of view) the statement is insulting if Michael means McLaren, but not so if he means (as I believe) Williams.
#34
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 03:23
Rich, for your another question, thats the (sort of point) - since Michael is not referring to McLaren but implying that he is, McLaren should clear that they are not the team Michael is referring to. It knock Michael a bit, which cannot be bad from their point of view.
I think it is quite clear Michael will finish his career at Ferrari retiring as that famous "honorary FIAT ambassador". Why should Mercedes pursue him?
I think it is quite clear Michael will finish his career at Ferrari retiring as that famous "honorary FIAT ambassador". Why should Mercedes pursue him?
#35
magnum
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 03:31
AAAARGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!You mean Schumacher will NEVER leave Ferrari - even when he RETIRES??? Sweet motherofgawd!
#36
bigblue
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 04:14
I've said it before and will likely say it again
"IF my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle"
"IF my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle"
#37
Rich
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 04:42
RaggedEdge, I think McLaren would be the last to deny that they've offered MS a drive. Why should they care if he thinks he could have won another two WDC's in their car? It's a compliment to them, they have no reason to correct him. McLaren have no reason to feel insulted, although Mika maybe does. But Mika's feelings aren't McLaren's top priority. I'm sure he can look after himself quite well.
In answer to your question, I wouldn't find a similar comment from JV insulting at all, provided it was common knowledge that he'd been offered a seat. If McLaren had chased JV, and he now came out in public and said 'I could have won another WDC if I'd taken McLaren's offer', would you find it insulting? I wouldn't.
Why should Mercedes pursue Michael? Well, for the same reason Ford did - he's the best. Isn't that obvious?
In answer to your question, I wouldn't find a similar comment from JV insulting at all, provided it was common knowledge that he'd been offered a seat. If McLaren had chased JV, and he now came out in public and said 'I could have won another WDC if I'd taken McLaren's offer', would you find it insulting? I wouldn't.
Why should Mercedes pursue Michael? Well, for the same reason Ford did - he's the best. Isn't that obvious?
#38
Montre-AL
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 04:43
Gee I didn't plan on tuning my violin so early this season. So Schumacher is bemoaning his putative titles! The ones that got away - poor baby! Wait a minute wouldn't that have made him a Newey champion?;)
#39
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 05:21
Rich, there was no "could" in Michael's statemetn, it was "would".
That kind of certainty cannot be applied to McLaren, since Ferrari was so close to them in 1998-99. "would"-kind of certainty only applies to Williams 1996-97, if even there.
Anyway, I hope someone challenges Michael to clarify his statement.
That kind of certainty cannot be applied to McLaren, since Ferrari was so close to them in 1998-99. "would"-kind of certainty only applies to Williams 1996-97, if even there.
Anyway, I hope someone challenges Michael to clarify his statement.
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#40
RaggedEdge
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 05:45
Rich, if you think Michael's statement is some sort of compliment to McLaren, it is also an insult to Ferrari.
On the other hand, since Michael refers to Williams, it is not such an insult, since Ferrari was not counting on winning titles in 1996-97 anyway.
If the team is:
A) McLaren - Michael is arrogant in claiming that he would have beaten Mika twice in a same car with absolute certainty, plus it is an insult to Ferrari, impying that it was some sort of dog, which it clearly was not, being 2nd and 1st in WCC in 1998-99.
B) Williams - Michael is a bit cocky, but not excessively so, since paired with Hill in Williams would have been a pretty sure ticket for 1996-97 WDCs. Not much insult to Ferrari, since they were on developing mode anyway.
Surely the only rational explanataion is B??
On the other hand, since Michael refers to Williams, it is not such an insult, since Ferrari was not counting on winning titles in 1996-97 anyway.
If the team is:
A) McLaren - Michael is arrogant in claiming that he would have beaten Mika twice in a same car with absolute certainty, plus it is an insult to Ferrari, impying that it was some sort of dog, which it clearly was not, being 2nd and 1st in WCC in 1998-99.
B) Williams - Michael is a bit cocky, but not excessively so, since paired with Hill in Williams would have been a pretty sure ticket for 1996-97 WDCs. Not much insult to Ferrari, since they were on developing mode anyway.
Surely the only rational explanataion is B??
#41
AD
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 07:47
MS did get an offer from McLaren. After MS extended his contract with Ferrari in early 1998, at the next GP Norbert Haug admitted during either the Thursday or Friday press conference that they made an offer to MS. That's the truth.
#42
Rich
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 08:43
RaggedEdge, 'could' or 'would' is just semantics, it's only Michael's opinion anyway, not hard fact. In my opinion, he'd have had an easier time against Mika than Damon. Damon was used to having great team-mates. He performed pretty well against Prost, and was at least scoring points while Ayrton was falling off the track in early 94. I don't think MS v DH at Williams would have been the walkover you anticipate, particularly given Frank Williams' insistence on equal treatment for drivers.
On the other hand, we aren't sure exactly when Michael would have joined McLaren, if it is indeed them that he is referring to. If it was in 96, then I have little doubt MS would have taken both the 98 and 99 WDC's. Mika had an easy time building his confidence and speed. He only had DC as a team-mate, a guy who was willing to move over twice to give Mika his first two GP wins. I think those two victories were absolutely crucial to Mika's improvement curve. I doubt Michael would have given those wins to him under the circumstances. Michael also has a way of making a team gravitate towards him and his needs. If Mika, so soon after his accident, had been part of a team that was squarely behind Michael, I'm not so sure he would have improved to the level he is at today. On the contrary, he may well have become disillusioned, lacking in self-confidence, and could have even moved elsewhere. Although Ron Dennis also claims to give drivers equal treatment, I think it only applies when he rates the two drivers as fairly equal. There's little doubt he gave Senna number one status. I see no reason why he wouldn't have done the same for Michael. In 96, MS was 2-time WDC, Mika was a driver fighting back from a potentially career-ending accident. It's not a stretch to suggest Ron would have swung more resources Michael's way.
Whichever team MS was referring to, I don't see that it's radically important. You'd probably find half the drivers on the grid claiming they could have won the WDC in the 98/9 Mac or the 96/7 Williams. I think you're placing way too much importance on what MS says. They're only his opinions, nothing more. So what if he thinks he could beat Mika or anybody else in the same car? That's not news to anybody. Prost, Senna, Lauda, Mansell and a whole bunch of other drivers all thought that way.
On the other hand, we aren't sure exactly when Michael would have joined McLaren, if it is indeed them that he is referring to. If it was in 96, then I have little doubt MS would have taken both the 98 and 99 WDC's. Mika had an easy time building his confidence and speed. He only had DC as a team-mate, a guy who was willing to move over twice to give Mika his first two GP wins. I think those two victories were absolutely crucial to Mika's improvement curve. I doubt Michael would have given those wins to him under the circumstances. Michael also has a way of making a team gravitate towards him and his needs. If Mika, so soon after his accident, had been part of a team that was squarely behind Michael, I'm not so sure he would have improved to the level he is at today. On the contrary, he may well have become disillusioned, lacking in self-confidence, and could have even moved elsewhere. Although Ron Dennis also claims to give drivers equal treatment, I think it only applies when he rates the two drivers as fairly equal. There's little doubt he gave Senna number one status. I see no reason why he wouldn't have done the same for Michael. In 96, MS was 2-time WDC, Mika was a driver fighting back from a potentially career-ending accident. It's not a stretch to suggest Ron would have swung more resources Michael's way.
Whichever team MS was referring to, I don't see that it's radically important. You'd probably find half the drivers on the grid claiming they could have won the WDC in the 98/9 Mac or the 96/7 Williams. I think you're placing way too much importance on what MS says. They're only his opinions, nothing more. So what if he thinks he could beat Mika or anybody else in the same car? That's not news to anybody. Prost, Senna, Lauda, Mansell and a whole bunch of other drivers all thought that way.
#43
man from martinlaakso
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 15:08
If Michael meant Williams in 1996 and 1997, then he had right. He probably would have won the title twice more.
If he meant McLaren in 1998 and in 1999, then he would also have won, if his teammate would have been Coulthard. If he would have had Mika as his partner, then the question would have been pretty much open. Mika had been in McLaren so long, that he knew the team and the car better. It would have been a hard battle, but I don't think, that Michael would have won it. His driving style is not the best possible one, when the car is a McLaren.
If he meant McLaren in 1998 and in 1999, then he would also have won, if his teammate would have been Coulthard. If he would have had Mika as his partner, then the question would have been pretty much open. Mika had been in McLaren so long, that he knew the team and the car better. It would have been a hard battle, but I don't think, that Michael would have won it. His driving style is not the best possible one, when the car is a McLaren.
#44
Sean L
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 15:38
I agree Rich.
Although I don't think it matters which drive he was referring to.
Whether he would have 0, 1 or 2 WDC's with Williams in 96/97 OR 0, 1 or 2 with the 98/99 MacLaren, nobody knows.
He is giving himself a 50% win ratio in the last 4 years. Is that such a stretch?
Although I don't think it matters which drive he was referring to.
Whether he would have 0, 1 or 2 WDC's with Williams in 96/97 OR 0, 1 or 2 with the 98/99 MacLaren, nobody knows.
He is giving himself a 50% win ratio in the last 4 years. Is that such a stretch?
#45
Mobile_Chicane
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 15:52
Not at Williams or McLaren. If he would have accepted the Benetton offer for 1996-97 instead of going to ferrari he would most likely be 4 times wdc now.
#46
speedy
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 16:36
Makarias,
I enjoyed your comment:
" Being obsessed with what might have been is not a great way to live your life, this goes for all of us. "
There's a seed of truth in that. There are cold facts which can not be bent and then there is the wonderful world of "would have done this and that" where one can escape the cold facts.
I enjoyed your comment:
" Being obsessed with what might have been is not a great way to live your life, this goes for all of us. "
There's a seed of truth in that. There are cold facts which can not be bent and then there is the wonderful world of "would have done this and that" where one can escape the cold facts.
#47
Samurai
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 19:16
Right-o!
all this sounds like some more hot air emitting from SChumacher's big mouth.
He blew enough great chances in '97, '98, and '99. I think one of the other WDCs like Mika, JV or Damon would have been able to capitalize on at least one year in the same seat.
SChumacher should just stop whining and be happy with the one WDC he was gifted with in '95.
all this sounds like some more hot air emitting from SChumacher's big mouth.
He blew enough great chances in '97, '98, and '99. I think one of the other WDCs like Mika, JV or Damon would have been able to capitalize on at least one year in the same seat.
SChumacher should just stop whining and be happy with the one WDC he was gifted with in '95.
#48
Samurai
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 08:11
I think JV saying he missed out on 2 WDCs because he wasn't at Ferrari for '98 and '99 would have more truth to it.
#49
Jecko
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Posted 07 March 2000 - 23:21
Samurai,
He barely won in a dominant Williams. By what stretch of the imagination would he have won in a slower Ferrari?
He barely won in a dominant Williams. By what stretch of the imagination would he have won in a slower Ferrari?
#50
Moritz
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Posted 08 March 2000 - 00:11
Raggededge, how come you cant see whats obvius to anyone?
If Michael and Mika had been in the same car the last two years, Mika wouldnt be the guy with the crown.
Also, isnt public knowledge that Michael has been offered both Williams and MClaren drives, either way he would in all likelyhood have been atleast 4x WDC.
If Michael and Mika had been in the same car the last two years, Mika wouldnt be the guy with the crown.
Also, isnt public knowledge that Michael has been offered both Williams and MClaren drives, either way he would in all likelyhood have been atleast 4x WDC.
