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Tazio Nuvolari - was he the greatest?

Started by Hans Etzrodt , Jul 31 2001 17:06

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204 replies to this topic

#1 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 17:06

The little man from Mantua - The greatest who has ever lived? Posted Image

Sixty-six years ago on 28 July 1935, he seized his greatest victory. The little man from Mantua appears to be crushed by the burden of the colossal laurel wreath. After fighting down his adversaries for 501 kilometers, he displays an exhausted smile to receive the Führer’s trophy, awarded by NSKK Korpsführer Adolf Hühnlein, head of the German ONS. I wonder how he ever explained to his Führer that the trophy went to an Ausländer, who had beaten the best of what the Fatherland had to offer, crushing nine superior Silver Arrows with a car lacking 100 horses to his strongest foes.

It was said that Nuvolari’s presence alone assured that the race would remain honest. I believe that. And so it was.

#2 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 17:13

The little man from Mantua - The greatest who has ever lived?

Yes, he was. :up:

#3 ry6

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 18:15

Patrick, Let's make that "OF COURSE he was."

That's not original from me, but I believe it having tried to read as much about Nuvolari as I can.

I seem to think "Of course he was" was the end of an article I once read called "The Farmer's son."

#4 Erd

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 18:27

I heard he won a race with no stearing wheel on his car at Monza....apparently steared the race with his spanner that teams left on the stearing wheel for removal of the stearing wheel in a crash.

#5 Michael Müller

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 21:16

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
The little man from Mantua - The greatest who has ever lived?

Yes, he was!

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 21:47

I think my feelings on this have been made perfectly clear before now - of course he was!!! Any doubters should check out:

www.tazionuvolari.it

(I really must stop recommending this site ... hell no, why should I?? It's a great site!!!)

#7 Roger Clark

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 22:16

Originally posted by ry6

I seem to think "Of course he was" was the end of an article I once read called "The Farmer's son."

The article was by Cyril Posthumus. It also contains the following

"The number of outright victories gained by a driver a far from being the sole criterion of greatness, which in motor racing means much more: the ability to go very fast and remain on the road, for instance; the ability to drive with your head as well as your hands and feet; to fight, and to go on fighting, no matter how hopeless the odds may seem; and to do all these thingsjust a little better than your rivals, without wearing your tyres down to the breker strip or blowing up your engine.."

#8 William Hunt

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 23:12

I also consider him as one of the greatest . But then how can we compare him to Nazarro, Fangio , Moss, Clark, Ickx or Senna. They lived in different era's and therefore can't really be compared. But anyone who thinks he was the greatest can vote for him in my F1 survey , he is off course in the '30s era.
RESPECT to TAZIO . WILLIAM.

#9 Jerry

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 23:29

All things considered, I feel he is the all-time greatest. Record aside, when you look at the variety of cars that he drove and his adaptability, I feel you have to consider him the best.

If Dr. Porsche, the designer of the awesome Auto Union called him the best, that is good enough for me. Who better could understand how difficult it was just to drive that car, not to mention win with it. And by a guy so small he had to look out the sides to see where he was going! :up:

#10 Gary Davies

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Posted 31 July 2001 - 23:59

Motor Sport think he was!

And BTW, have we yet seen a definitive record of what he sat on ... was it oranges, lemons, potatoes or all three?

Vanwall

#11 Yves

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Posted 01 August 2001 - 13:07

What a question :eek:

No question : he is the ONLY greatest

Erd, even the great Tazio didn't achieve that because it's impossible

(of course impossible because himself didn't ;) ). He only finished 7th I think ! :

http://www.tazionuvo....it/brezz46.jpg

ry6, could you please share your Nuvolari's bibliography with us ?

I'm very anxious about Coppola's movie project of Tazio's life

In fact, I'm very afraid this could be some other "Driven" sh...

Y.

#12 Toine

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Posted 01 August 2001 - 13:18

Good afternoon

Where have you read about the Coppola project?

Thx:)

Toine

#13 William Hunt

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Posted 01 August 2001 - 13:27

If U guys all think that Tazio Nuvolari was the greatest , well then vote for him in my Ambitious F1 Survey . I'm investigating the most popular drivers in each era. Max. 12 drivers per era may be chosen.

A bit surprisingly it is not Nuvolari or Caraciola but BERND ROSEMEYER who is currently leading the '30s survey era.
U guys can still change this if U participate in the survey (that will be published in this forum off course) and vote for Tazio !

Greetings to Everybody at this marvelous Forum.
WILLIAM (from Belgium)

PS : Your favourite drivers can be mailed to :
william.hunt@pandora.be
or just put in my private message box or put in the survey thread.

#14 Yves

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Posted 01 August 2001 - 14:15

Toine,

I'm unabled to get my source back

Just remember I discussed this recently with somebody but who ???

Not very serious, I know

#15 Toine

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Posted 01 August 2001 - 14:19

It's weird about Coppola being interested in Nuvolari... he thinks about Stallone...? lol ;)
It's ridiculous.

#16 mhferrari

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Posted 01 August 2001 - 14:21

The little man from Mantua - The greatest who has ever lived?

Yes, indeed he was!

#17 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 01 August 2001 - 21:51

The two greatest who ever lived?
Posted Image

Faces and body language tell their story of these relentless fighters. Tazio proudly accepts congratulations from the defeated Rosemeyer. Shown here at Budapest in 1936, what could the dejected German have told the victorious Nuvolari when he shook his hand following their heated battle? Both were bold daredevils, flamboyant and charismatic. Fierce adversaries on the track, they were really good friends and had a great liking to each other.

Bernd Rosemeyer, a natural talent, only raced for three years from 1935 to 1937, winning three out of 13 Grandes Épreuves. He was a charismatic, well-liked daredevil of enormous popularity; a phenomenon that beat established giants like Caracciola and Nuvolari on pure ability and speed. In only his second year racing cars, and Grand Prix cars for that matter, he became European Champion, the equal to the present day World Champion. The German's meteoric rise to fame ended January 1938 in a tragic 270 mph crash at a record attempt.

#18 William Hunt

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Posted 01 August 2001 - 22:08

What about Achille Varzi , Jean-Pierre Wimille, Felice Nazarro or Louis Chiron ? They are legendary as well.

#19 Mickey

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Posted 02 August 2001 - 10:04

Hmmm, I didn't hear anything about Coppola's film on Nuvolari, so I did a little search on it. I haven't found much, nothing in English, but some news in French and Spanish only.

From http://www.dailyf1.c.../june/11c.shtml
(why didn't DailyF1 put this in the English version of the site??? :mad:

)

Coppola va faire un film sur Nuvolari (11/06 - 15h30 UTC+2 )
Par Daniel Thys

La présence de Nicolas Cage n'est pas passée inaperçue ce week-end à Montréal. Mais que venait-il faire là? S'est-il pris d'une passion subite pour la F1? Non, pas vraiment, sa présence cache autre chose de bien plus passionnant pour nous.
En effet, nous apprenons que Francis Ford Coppola est sur le point de commencer le tournage d'un film sur l'une des plus grandes légendes du sport automobile: Tazio Nuvolari. La productrice de ce film ne serait autre que Cora Reutemann, la fille de Carlos Reutemann. En fait, c'est une véritable histoire de familles puisque Nicolas Cage est le neveu de Francis Ford Coppola. Son vrai nom est d'ailleurs Nicolas Coppola.
Tazio Nuvolari (1891-1953) commença sa carrière, en 1920 et c'est en 1950, qu'il raccroche son casque définitivement. C'est en 1930, que Nuvolari remporta sa première grande victoire : les Mille Miles au volant d'une Alfa Romeo. Il continua sa carrière aux commandes de Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Auto Union ou encore Cisitalia et Ferrari.
Le fait que ce soit Francis Coppola qui est pressenti pour réaliser ce film peut nous laisser espérer que ce sera un film de grande qualité.

Which roughly translates to:

Coppola to make a film about Nuvolari (11/06 - 15h30 UTC+2 )
By Daniel Thys

The presence of Nicolas Cage has not gone unnoticed this weekend in Montreal. But what was he doing there? Is it the passion for F1? No, not really, his presence yelds something much more exciting for us.
In fact, we have learnt that Francis Ford Coppola is on the verge of starting shooting a film on one of the greatest legends of motorsport: Tazio Nuvolari. The producer of this film will be none other than Cora Reutemann, daughter of Carlos Reutemann. In fact, there is a particular family history as Nicolas Cage is the nephew (?) of Francis Ford Coppola. His real name is actually Nicholas Coppola.
Tazio Nuvolari (1891-1953) [Mickey - isn't it 1892?] began his carreer in 1920, and hung up his helmet for the last time in 1950. It was in 1930 that Nuvolari got his first major victory: the Mille Miglia driving an Alfa Romeo. He continued his carreer driving for Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Auto Union, Cisitalia and Ferrari.
The fact that it's Francis Coppola who is about (?) to create the film makes us hope that it will be of great quality.

I apologize about the (?) but French ain't my mother language (and neither is English :lol:

)

Damn, I'm looking forward to this film! Hope this is true

There are a couple more sources here:
http://ar.clarin.com...14/d-278719.htm
http://www.f1-niouse.../minardix22.htm

#20 Yves

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Posted 02 August 2001 - 10:26

It's clear that juging at the unit of objective matter, results, championship, victories percentage etc ... Tazio is perhaps not the greatest but he inheritate this "title" for many more subjective and I think for myself good reasons :

- He has so many times been victorious against the logic
- For quite all the other "challengers" to this unofficial "title", come to mind one great victory. For Tazio I all the time immediately remember many ...
- His private life has been a tragedy by its own (He loose his two sons dramatically).
- He has been so many time injuried and each time come back before being totally healthy.
- The original anecdotes during his career are so numerous and so ... special.
I cannot resist to list a few ones :
- When once more accidented at Solitude (motocycle), a german (or italian ?) paper annouced his death.
- His victory to Targa Florio with lights off during the night when he was poursuiing the leader (Varzi I think ?)
- One of if not the most famous duel in GP for ever with once more Varzi at Monaco (1933 ?) Any way, the longest if not the most famous ;) : 98 laps ?
- At Donington if I remember well, he has also an accident when a hirch (good word ? "un cerf" on french) crossed the track...
- And his last race is also for me the most tragical by itself : think about it : If you have seen this in a movie without knowing Tazio's history, what would you think about it ? You said probably : "Totally unrealistic", or scenarist deliria ?

I really understand that it's the most interesting caracter as a racing car driver for a movie following Hollywood criteria :eek:

Hans, all this is not to put on the "debit" of Rosemeyer or anyone else balance but, for the drivers he has been opposed to, on their credit : One of the biggest achievement in Tazio's career is the fact he has driven during one of the richest period of motor sport.

Y.

#21 Yves

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Posted 02 August 2001 - 10:32

Thanks Mickey,

In fact you retrieve my original source ;) and this is a site I visit daily

I need to do a memory checkup ;)

Y.

#22 Toine

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Posted 02 August 2001 - 10:41

Thanx Mickey

I don't really trust Hollywood... but i guess they gonna get THE cars for the movie?

C U

Toine

#23 Mickey

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Posted 02 August 2001 - 10:48

Originally posted by Yves
Originally posteb by Erd
I heard he won a race with no stearing wheel on his car at Monza....apparently steared the race with his spanner that teams left on the stearing wheel for removal of the stearing wheel in a crash.
Erd, even the great Tazio didn't achieve that because it's impossible (of course impossible because himself didn't ;) ). He only finished 7th I think !

I think the correct result is here

From http://www.tazionuvo....it/bio2_uk.htm
In Turin, on September 3rd, he started the Coppa Brezzi driving a Cisitalia D46. He was in the lead at the end of the first lap. On the second one he passed in front of the pit area waving the steering wheel which had come off in his hands. He did another lap driving the steering column but then he had to stop for the inevitable repairs. He started again and ended the race ranking 13th. The story went around the world and added popularity to his already formidable myth.

#24 David J Jones

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Posted 03 August 2001 - 15:27

Hans

Yes I believe that Nuvolari was the greatest of all time and also that Rosemeyer is second to him in the all time ratings. Schumi, though, is fast approaching their standards.

What a shame that Auto-Union preferred Varzi to Nuvolari. I believe had they chosen Nuvolari they would have had the dominant team rather than Mercedes.

Instead they had to wait until mid 1938 before he raced for them

#25 Yves

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Posted 03 August 2001 - 15:58

Rosemeyer has been without any doubt a "flamboyant" champion and it's a shame that he loose his life in an attempt that seems so stupid at our modern eyes...
But as successfull his career has been, it was a too short period to really compare to Tazio's life...

One other driver has been as fast as quickly as Berndt : Guy Moll
But his career has been shorter and for that reason he cannot be listed with the greatest of all time

#26 David J Jones

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Posted 04 August 2001 - 07:06

Even though Rosemeyer's career was regrettably short he was head and shoulders above those around him.
It is this charismatic thing and one other fact that makes him stand out over time.

That fact? He was brilliant at the Nurburgring. It is a pity that racing or testing does not take place there as it is a common yardstick which can be applied over time. Even allowing for the changes it was still a challenge. To win there in my view marks an individual for consideration for inclusion in the 'hall of the greats'

I would love to see Schumi take on the challenge of the proper Nurburgring as I believe he would rank quite highly against others.

Only a couple of my private top ten never won there. All those who did won well.

#27 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 05 August 2001 - 18:41

Originally posted by Vanwall
.....have we yet seen a definitive record of what he sat on ... was it oranges, lemons, potatoes or all three?.....

When he needed to raise his body, Nuvolari used a cushion, only about two inches thick.

He may have been a little man but he was a giant amongst champions and was highly respected by his adversaries.

#28 Yves

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Posted 06 August 2001 - 10:51

Concerning the Nürbürgring, I fully agree with you, David : the old ring has really been the most selective track in the world... and such races are really missing in this modern time.
And I also not put in my list any driver that has miserably failed there.
Concerning Rosemeyer, I also agree with you but I just said we cannot compare his short career, as brillliant it has been, to the "long" Tazio's one : it's not fair ;)

Y.

#29 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 07 August 2001 - 09:35

This thread started out showing Nuvolari at the 1935 German GP where he drove an absolutely splendid race. However, it actually was more a race lost by von Brauchitsch than a race won by Nuvolari who had inherited the lead on the last lap. But regardless, Nuvolari fully deserved his victory, having had the misfortune to loose a lot of time in his pits, which had set him back so far. But in the following year, Nuvolari performed even better than 1935 at the Nürburgring.

The 1936 Penya Rhin GP was not a Grande Épreuve but there were Caracciola and Chiron on Mercedes-Benz, Rosemeyer und Delius (Varzi went on strike in Barcelona, remember?) with Auto Unions, Nuvolari, Farina and Brivio with Alfas, Wimille on the sole Bugatti, Etancelin on Maserati; everything was set for a good race. Although there were only 11 cars at the start, the race developed into a tough battle for the lead between Nuvolari and Caracciola. The Alfa had 370 hp und the Mercedes had at least 100 more. The race went only over about 303 km but after these two giants battled for 2 ¾ hours, Tazio passed the finish just seven seconds ahead of Caracciola. This was a tremendous achievement, often overlooked. Yes, Nuvolari had luck on his side because near the end of the race his tires were totally used up.

During the 1936 season, Nuvolari, driving the underpowered Alfa, vanquished the Germans three times. Who else could have pulled off such an inconceivable feat? Nuvolari was a very bold driver who always went after the impossible. And let me say it again, Nuvolari's presence in an event was always the guarantee that the race would remain honest. Granted, he did not look after his car, as Caracciola did for example, but he squeezed everything out of his machines, he was merciless. This is the reason why Nuvolari also lost several races where he drove the car into the ground.

#30 Yves

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Posted 07 August 2001 - 11:00

The only driver of the "modern" period I think about to oppose to Tazio's is Stirling Moss.
And Stirling Moss has also been very good not to say more at the Nürbürgring.
Do you think that his reputation will stay in the history equal to Tazio ?

Y.

#31 David J Jones

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Posted 07 August 2001 - 12:56

My personal view would be not to rate Moss alongside Nuvolari as the driver of 'modern times'

I would have to rate all of the modern multiple world champions ahead of Moss and perhaps some of the single time champions. I saw most of them in action with the exception of Fangio and Ascari. The latter two I personally rate in my private top 6.

The multiple champions include

J Clark
G Hill
J Stewart
A Senna
N Lauda
E Fittipaldi

I am not sure about Piquet or Prost though.

Nuvolari and Rosemeyer are the tops though in that order. I find I cannot disbar a driver merely because he died at an early stage in his career.
I wonder how Bernd would have performed in the Type D Auto-Union perhaps alongside Tazio in 38/39?

#32 Yves

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Posted 07 August 2001 - 13:22

I was doing the parallel between Tazio and Stirling on two points they have in common :

- Both missed the regular official championship of their time
- Both have great victories against the mecanical logic (an both at Nürbürgring which is a must ;) ).

And also both have been successfull in all flavour of motor sport : they just need 4 wheels and an engine to make great things

#33 David J Jones

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 10:43

Regarding the Moss Nurburgring victory in 1961.

It must be remembered that Moss was aided by the Dunlop wet weather tyres he was using. These had previously been used by Innes Ireland when he won at Solitude prior to the Nurburgring race.

So in my book Tazio and Bernd rule at 1&2. It is no coincidence but I feel each was the master of the Auto-Union and each was a former motor-cyclist. I am not sure but Tazio must have won the predecessor of the European Championship? I will have to check sometime because my understanding was that he was a true champion and respected by all.

I must admit to having been a Hawthorn man though and despite his winning a World Championship I would not consider him in my top 15. Because of his championship win I would place him ahead of Moss though in any list............ but then I am somewhat biased.

#34 Don Capps

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 16:45

I was doing the parallel between Tazio and Stirling on two points they have in common :

- Both missed the regular official championship of their time

Well, sorta half correct: in 1933, Tazio Nuvolari was the best placed driver in the CSI/AIACR's rather bizarre European Championship for the season. Alfa Romeo (Alfa Corse) was the "Champion" but that was the result of it being the recipient of the points earned (well, actually not earned) as the constructor entrant for the marque/team. Nuvolari was a "private entrant" that season and while fininshing second he was actually the first "individual" in the Championship...

The CSI rarely made things simple then or later....

However, were I an entrant for any type of car, Nuvolari would be my number one choice for a seat on the team. After that it gets a bit tougher.....

Personally, I find that I really could care less about the WDC as a "significant" factor in evaluating a driver. Moss is leagues ahead of Hawthorn despite the latter's WDC: and I like Mike! He was always pleasant on the occasions I had the true pleasure to meet him. WDC or not, Rosberg would still be on my "short list."

#35 TazioN

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 17:21

Nuvolari was the greatest driver ever. He had character, personality, defiance, all the traits that have been missing from F1 since Senna died.

#36 David J Jones

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 18:43

Don

Thanks for confirming the detail about Nuvolari for 1933. I am glad it turned out like that because I could not face having to readdress my personal list without Nuvolari at its head.

I am sorry we disagree about JMH and Moss but I have to stick to my qualification for entry as a driver being a CSI, European or WDC.
I was not fortunate enough to see JMF, JMH or PJC drive live (I could only watch on TV in those days if I was lucky) so I cannot make a true comparison.

However I am able to make a comparison in respect of another of my favourites CAS Brooks who was I feel as fast as Moss - a gentleman - and an artist. I do not believe either there was much between between Brooks and JMH or PJC. What a Ferrari team they would have made!
It is a pity that CAS has not written his memoirs as I believe he could throw an interesting light on how we view the drivers of those days. I feel this by reading between the lines in various articles I have read about him over the last 4 or 5 years.
His drive on that tragic day we lost PJC was outstanding - I have had a quick look the details I can get at - and the performance appears more impressive than Fangio's in 57.

I would dearly love to be able to include him in my list but he never made WDC so I can't.
Mansell is not in my top ten (but he is in the top 20) and he is the most successful British driver of all time. Ahead of him and in my top ten are Clark, Hill and Stewart so I am not going on races won.

As anyone can guess I am not a Moss man and never will be now. Sometimes I wish JMH had the health to continue on after 58 so this never ending argument could have been settled.

#37 Don Capps

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 20:02

I would dearly love to be able to include him in my list but he never made WDC so I can't.

David,

I am truly sorry, but I could never fathom doing something like this. Senna was a WDC, but he will never, never, never, never ever make any personal list of mine that is postive.

However, to each his own. It is your List and use whatever criteria you please and tell the rest of us to buzz off.... :lol:

Tazio Nuvolari, Gilles Villeneuve, Keke Rosberg, Bill Vukovich, Jimmy Bryan, Lloyd Ruby, A.J. Foyt, Tim Flock, Phil Hill, Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, Alberto Ascari, Maurice Trintignant, Jose Froilan Gonzalez, Dan Gurney, Eric Carlsson, Fred Lorenzen, John Surtees, Mike Hailwood, Curtis Turner, David Pearson, Bernd Rosemeyer, Louis Chiron, David Bruce-Brown -- these are my sorts of guys.

The WDC -- or any other Championship for that matter -- is not the Alpha & Omega to me. Nice, but not essential. Did not being WDC in 1956 mean that Peter Collins was not successful? Or Stirling Moss in 1958? Or that Nuvolari did not win the revised CSI Euro Championship means he should be considered Not Worthy? In my opinion, certainly not. As is obvious, I tend to be "inclusive" versus "exclusive" in my often jaundiced view of the world.

I do agree with you about Tony Brooks being a True Gent and Artist. He is so under-rated and was such a great driver. It is mind-boggling to realize how young he was when he walked away from the sport. Had he stayed at BRM for the 1962, I have always felt that he would delivered the WDC/WCC to Bourne rather than G.N. Hill.

#38 David J Jones

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Posted 09 August 2001 - 20:32

Don

I agree with your comments - my list is my list- your list is yours evryones is their own.

In many ways I think we share the same basic feelings - something you only get from being around at the time - eg Brooks, Clark, Hill Stewart, Fittipaldi etc

I agree about Senna but I am not as harsh as you as I have him in my list reluctantly at 10. I am though harsh about Prost he just does not rate in my top 20 despite 4 WDCs. So that is not all I go by.

I agree about 1956 but had PJC known what was about to happen to Moss, Musso in the final stages of the Monza race would he have done what he did? I still do not think I would rate him in the top 20 even so.
I can't agree about 1958 that Moss was unlucky because on consistent driving results JMH had outscored him.
I fully endorse what you say about CAS Brooks.

ps
Knowing that I was a Hawthorn man would you expect me rate Moss above him? Mike got very little acknowledgement for what he achieved at the time and gets even less now.
Also I love an unequal struggle which why I just love the 1939 saga! Controversial issues are great!
Who was the spy in the German High Command ?(1942-45)....

#39 Yves

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Posted 10 August 2001 - 08:43

Don,

Thanks for the precisions on 1933 european championship

I'm very surprise that you put Pétoulet in a such highly rated list :eek:

I always think he was a very subtil driver but his palmares is a little bit short, isn't it ?

Y.

#40 Don Capps

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Posted 10 August 2001 - 13:53

Trintignant is one of those folks that has always struck me as being unappreciated, especially today. He and Harry Schell were two of my favorites in the mid-50s, in great part due to just my liking them as both drivers and as people. Trintignant could always be counted on to bring the car home and not do anything dumb, and yet be faster than most realized. Another one of strictly personal deals. It is not all elbows and wheelspin with me.

#41 oldtimer

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 00:50

It's good to see Don waxing nostalgic in so many threads.

Thanks Hans for the shot of the two greatest. Somehow, I just can't think of seeing two current drivers exchanging so much respect.

Somehow Tony Brooks crept into this thread. Now I am a great admirer of Tony, and greatly enjoyed what he brought to the sport, but I can't think of a greater contrast than his and Nuvolari's style. 'Chalk from cheese' as they say in England.

An earlier post spoke of Brooks being nearly as fast as Moss. Well, I reckon he was faster, but only up to the point when the wheel-winding started. Wheel-winding was not his stuff, let alone the antics of TN.

#42 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 08:36

Originally posted by Don Capps

Well, sorta half correct: in 1933, Tazio Nuvolari was the best placed driver in the CSI/AIACR's rather bizarre European Championship for the season. Alfa Romeo (Alfa Corse) was the "Champion" but that was the result of it being the recipient of the points earned (well, actually not earned) as the constructor entrant for the marque/team. Nuvolari was a "private entrant" that season and while fininshing second he was actually the first "individual" in the Championship...

I don't fully understand this paragraph. Firstly Nuvolari drove for Alfa Corse (or Scuderia Ferrari as it was everywhereexcept the entry forms) until he fell out ith Ferrari before the Belgian Grand Prix. Secondly, the champpppionship was surely for entrants, not drivers. To say that Nuvolari ws the first individual is true in the sense that he was the first private entrant, but meaningless in the context of drivers' championships.

#43 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 08:59

Roger,
The 1932 European Championship was a bit unusual insofar as it was for manufacturers and single drivers, both competing with each other for points. Only the best placed car of a factory team counted, regardless of who was driving. Alfa Romeo won with 3 points, with Tazio Nuvolari second (4) as the European Champion of the drivers, followed by Borzacchini (8), Caracciola (10), Dreyfus (14) and Officine Maserati in sixth place with 15 points.

#44 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 10:03

Hans,

I assume that 1932 is a typing error and you mean 1933.

Was "European Champion of the drivers" an official title? If so it was presumably only open to private entrants. It's interesting to see Borzacchini in the list as he drove for Ferrari in the early part of the season and, I believe, a works entered Maserati for most of the latter part. I also always believed that Nuvolari's Maserati was works entered in the latter part of the season.

how did the scoring system work? Usually in those lowest wins championships you got a number (10?) if you didn't enter. What happend if a private entrant drove for a team in some races?

It's also interesting to see Caracciola in the list as he didn't race at all in 1933. Presumably this is 10 points for entered but did not finish at Monaco.

I have to admit I'm in the dark on this as I don't even know which races counted for the championship.

#45 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 12:16

Some time ago, I had just written the basic information on my List Guidelines at Leif's home page at http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/. If there should be some demand, of which I am not really sure, I could possibly write a more elaborate story about the 1932 European Championship.

#46 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 14:17

I would certainly like to know more if you've got the time Hans, but are we talking about 1932 or 1933?

#47 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 17:58

When I went over the last few posts I noticed the reason for your confusion. I never heard of a European Championship in grand prix racing for 1933 or in 1934 for that matter. I have never seen documentation to support such a claim that a GP championship was held, except for the European Mountain Climb Championship in 1933.

#48 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 18:24

Yes, that does rather explain things! I can only claim that it was Mr Capps who sent me off down this blind alley.

#49 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 12 August 2001 - 08:22

The following is an extract from Grand Prix Racing, Facts and Figures by George Monkhouse and Roland King-Farlow, G.T. Foulis, 1964. I can only recommend this book to anybody interested in early grand prix racing and if you don’t have it, go and get it. It was considered the bible and still is a very important book nowadays. These books are still around, easily found and affordable. George Monkhouse who was there, covering part of the latter races in the thirties and met all the drivers, wrote:

".....The very sight of Nuvolari has for some reason which I cannot explain always sent "tingles down my spine," perhaps it was just his dynamic personality, but I know that I was not alone in this feeling. He is a wiry, dapper, little man with the most purposeful chin. His racing get-up was always colourful, a bright scarf, a red or blue helmet, giving relief to the sombre brown sleeveless leather jerkin in which he usually drove if the day was cold or wet. In fine weather he donned a bright yellow pullover and white helmet, but wet or fine, round his neck he always wore his lucky charm, ironically enough, a golden tortoise. To see Nuvolari in his hey-day, chin out, sitting well back in the driving seat, his outstretched hairy brown arms flashing in the sun as he made his blood-red Alfa perform seemingly impossible antics, not once, but corner after corner, lap after lap, the tyres screaming, and the crowd yelling themselves hoarse, was quite fantastic. There was something soul-stirring about Tazio Nuvolari, for wherever he drove, thousands of spectators, whatever their nationality, "squeezed" for him, hoping against hope that he would achieve the impossible, nor did he often disappoint them. He died in Mantua on 10th August, 1953."

#50 Don Capps

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Posted 12 August 2001 - 16:09

Thanks, Roger. With friends like you.... :lol:

Mea Culpa, it was a typo. I really need get my eyes checked again.... and better coordination twix brain & fingers. :blush:

Hans is correct about the only "Euro" championship we know about for 1933 being the mountain championship.

And I hope Hans will do an in-depth on the 19331/1932 CSI EC's since they are as fascinating as they are baffling.

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