Why is it that drivers from Scotland and Ireland are listed under Great Britain and not their specific nationality? Does it have something to do with licensing of super licenses within the FIA? Why do drivers from Scotland and Ireland have the British National Anthem played when they win? Thanks for entertaining a seemingly simple question.
National Anthems and driver nationality
Started by
MattB
, Sep 25 2000 13:50
15 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#2
baddog
-
- 30,534 posts
- Joined: June 99
Member
Posted 25 September 2000 - 14:02
firstly your question is misstated. it is an equally valid question for english, welsh, scottish or northern irish drivers, not just scottish or irish. in fact a driver from SOUTHERN ireland would get the eire national anthem.
It is because their nationality IS British. thats whats on their passport. The country whos parliament has final authority over their countries, be it england, scotland or whatever, is the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Great Britain consists of england wales and scotland.
People from various countries in the united kingdom have individual national identities, but their legal nationality is unquestionably british. Some might not like it but it is in fact so.
Shaun
It is because their nationality IS British. thats whats on their passport. The country whos parliament has final authority over their countries, be it england, scotland or whatever, is the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Great Britain consists of england wales and scotland.
People from various countries in the united kingdom have individual national identities, but their legal nationality is unquestionably british. Some might not like it but it is in fact so.
Shaun
#3
h2fan
-
- 200 posts
- Joined: April 99
Member
Posted 25 September 2000 - 14:26
Baddog,
You seem to have almost a firm grasp on what the story is with the National Anthems and Nationality, but you are not 100% correct with regards to drivers born in Nothern Ireland (i.e. Eddie Irvine). The fact of the matter is that any person born in the North of Ireland is entitled to an Irish Passport (as well as/or instead of a British one). Some people (especially those of the Catholic/Nationalist persuasion) will avail of this and refer to themselves as Irish and Not British. When Eddie Irvine first appeared on the podium the organisers flew the Irish Flag and Eddie was threathened with all sorts from the Pro-British Loyalists paramilitaries. To the best of my knowledge Eddie is Non-political and requested that a Flag with a Shamrock (the symbol of Ireland) be flown as a neutral gesture, but this was turned down. Eddie is from the North of Ireland which is part of Great Britian which is why a Bristish flag is flown and the British National Anthem is played, however as you can see from his old helmet (the one he had when he droove for Ferrari) he had a Shamrock on it, so he may have been making some sort of point himself.
Rgds,
H2FAN
You seem to have almost a firm grasp on what the story is with the National Anthems and Nationality, but you are not 100% correct with regards to drivers born in Nothern Ireland (i.e. Eddie Irvine). The fact of the matter is that any person born in the North of Ireland is entitled to an Irish Passport (as well as/or instead of a British one). Some people (especially those of the Catholic/Nationalist persuasion) will avail of this and refer to themselves as Irish and Not British. When Eddie Irvine first appeared on the podium the organisers flew the Irish Flag and Eddie was threathened with all sorts from the Pro-British Loyalists paramilitaries. To the best of my knowledge Eddie is Non-political and requested that a Flag with a Shamrock (the symbol of Ireland) be flown as a neutral gesture, but this was turned down. Eddie is from the North of Ireland which is part of Great Britian which is why a Bristish flag is flown and the British National Anthem is played, however as you can see from his old helmet (the one he had when he droove for Ferrari) he had a Shamrock on it, so he may have been making some sort of point himself.
Rgds,
H2FAN
#4
baddog
-
- 30,534 posts
- Joined: June 99
Member
Posted 25 September 2000 - 14:38
h2f
indeed, the ireland situation is complicated by the claim to the north still held by the south, which involves them allowing anyone from NI to apply for an eire passport. In general terms a person from the north is british by default unless they actively seek to change this. I didnt want to get into all that here though as its not I think what sennafan was looking for!
Shaun
indeed, the ireland situation is complicated by the claim to the north still held by the south, which involves them allowing anyone from NI to apply for an eire passport. In general terms a person from the north is british by default unless they actively seek to change this. I didnt want to get into all that here though as its not I think what sennafan was looking for!
Shaun
#5
Doug Gordon
-
- 9 posts
- Joined: March 99
New Member
Posted 25 September 2000 - 15:19
Indeed, in the U.S. we often use the names "England", "Britain", "Great Britain", "British Isles" and "U.K." almost interchangeably. However, to the residents of the Isles there are some definite distinctions! Of course, we also have our own regional differences here that might not be known by visitors from other countries. For example, calling someone from South Carolina a "Yank" might get you the same reaction as calling someone from Scotland "English" :-).
Doug
Doug
#6
mel
-
- 1,853 posts
- Joined: July 99
RC Forum Host
Posted 25 September 2000 - 15:27
Yep. No such thing as a Scottish passport yet. We've got a good anthem though. The queen is half scottish anyway. 
#7
MacFan
-
- 1,616 posts
- Joined: May 00
Member
Posted 25 September 2000 - 15:30
*OFF TOPIC*
I thought she was German like the rest of the royals?
*BACK ON TOPIC*
Flower of Scotland would sound more appropriate than the English anthem when Coulthard wins - the original "God save the King/Queen (delete as applicable)" contains a verse about "quelling rebellious Scots"!
I thought she was German like the rest of the royals?
*BACK ON TOPIC*
Flower of Scotland would sound more appropriate than the English anthem when Coulthard wins - the original "God save the King/Queen (delete as applicable)" contains a verse about "quelling rebellious Scots"!
#8
mel
-
- 1,853 posts
- Joined: July 99
RC Forum Host
Posted 25 September 2000 - 15:48
Off topic - only german on her father's side. the Queen Mum is scottish.
On topic - Flower of Scotland has some pretty rude things about the English in it too!
On topic - Flower of Scotland has some pretty rude things about the English in it too!
#9
MacFan
-
- 1,616 posts
- Joined: May 00
Member
Posted 25 September 2000 - 15:53
Especially the "unofficial" version sung at rugby matches etc ;)
#10
mel
-
- 1,853 posts
- Joined: July 99
RC Forum Host
Posted 25 September 2000 - 16:24
Yeah, that gets pretty 'unofficial' lol
;)
;)
#11
Ali_G
-
- 35,200 posts
- Joined: August 00
Member
Posted 25 September 2000 - 17:33
Baddog: You are not quiet right about Eddie Irvine.
Article 2 Bunreacht na h,Eireann
Any person born on the island of Ireland has his born right to be part of the Irish nation.
That means a person born in the north can hold an Irish passport.
Eddie Irvine holds an Irish passport. Thats official.
Niall
Article 2 Bunreacht na h,Eireann
Any person born on the island of Ireland has his born right to be part of the Irish nation.
That means a person born in the north can hold an Irish passport.
Eddie Irvine holds an Irish passport. Thats official.
Niall
#12
Eric McLoughlin
-
- 1,623 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 25 September 2000 - 23:29
Holding a passport is not a definition of ones legal nationality - ask any British passport holder from a former British colony - many still need residency visas to live in the UK. Anyone born in Northern Ireland is, by default, a citizen of the UK and unless they express a distinct wish to some other nationality, will be defined as such. Obviously, the Irish Republic offers (for political reasons) any Northern Irish person who so wishes the opportunity to hold an Irish passport - in fact, there are many people who are entitled to hold passports of more than one country.
The one time the Irish national anthem has been legitimately played after a GP has been for Jordan following their few wins - although based at Silverstone, they are registered as an Irish team.
Finally, I thought that the article proclaiming the Irish Republic's claim to the territory of Northern Ireland had now been dropped from the Irish Constitution following a referendum a few years ago.
The one time the Irish national anthem has been legitimately played after a GP has been for Jordan following their few wins - although based at Silverstone, they are registered as an Irish team.
Finally, I thought that the article proclaiming the Irish Republic's claim to the territory of Northern Ireland had now been dropped from the Irish Constitution following a referendum a few years ago.
#13
green-blood
-
- 709 posts
- Joined: May 00
Member
Posted 26 September 2000 - 06:43
Tell ya what lads it has very little to do with passports and everything to do with what national association gave them their competition licence. Irvine like it or not British, by law, he also has a British Racing Licence. Full stop. Pity that.
#14
h2fan
-
- 200 posts
- Joined: April 99
Member
Posted 26 September 2000 - 07:12
Eric,
You are correct about the article dropping the constitutional claim to the North by the Irish Republic (although I think the wording has been changed as opposed to the total dropping of the claim, It now reads something along the lines that it will only be claimed by the Republic if the majority of citizens desire to re-united), not exactly those words but you get the idea. However anyone in the Norht can still have an Irish passport if they desire and I'm pretty sure that Eddie Irvine has one. However as pointed out before this is not really the palce to a have a discussion on the whole Northern Irish Nationality thing. Anyway if you listen to Murray Walker he'll always find some way to lay claim to a British victory no matter who wins ;)
Rgds,
H2FAN
You are correct about the article dropping the constitutional claim to the North by the Irish Republic (although I think the wording has been changed as opposed to the total dropping of the claim, It now reads something along the lines that it will only be claimed by the Republic if the majority of citizens desire to re-united), not exactly those words but you get the idea. However anyone in the Norht can still have an Irish passport if they desire and I'm pretty sure that Eddie Irvine has one. However as pointed out before this is not really the palce to a have a discussion on the whole Northern Irish Nationality thing. Anyway if you listen to Murray Walker he'll always find some way to lay claim to a British victory no matter who wins ;)
Rgds,
H2FAN
#15
Dougal
-
- 14 posts
- Joined: February 00
New Member
Posted 26 September 2000 - 12:19
Ireland is one of the few enlightened country's where you can have as many passports from different countrys as you like (especially if you have the odd million or two 'resting' in an account). This whole thread brings to mind two funny incidences:
Funny incident 1
Jordan win there first grand prix in Belguim. The chances were so remote that this would happen, they couldn't find the irish anthem in time to play it, so we got the brittish one instead. EJ sorted that from then on.
Funny incident 2
When Jordan won there second race, Murray Walker proclaimed that we would now hear the Brittish anthem for the Jordan team. Never has 'face', 'egg', and 'on' been so appropriate in the same sentance!
One last thing. I wonder what would happen if you want to a border patrol in deepest Africa, handed in a BRitish passpord, they said, 'ahhh, sorry, we don;t like you here, you can't come in', to which you reply, 'oh, sorry, wrong passport, how about this one instead?'
Funny incident 1
Jordan win there first grand prix in Belguim. The chances were so remote that this would happen, they couldn't find the irish anthem in time to play it, so we got the brittish one instead. EJ sorted that from then on.
Funny incident 2
When Jordan won there second race, Murray Walker proclaimed that we would now hear the Brittish anthem for the Jordan team. Never has 'face', 'egg', and 'on' been so appropriate in the same sentance!
One last thing. I wonder what would happen if you want to a border patrol in deepest Africa, handed in a BRitish passpord, they said, 'ahhh, sorry, we don;t like you here, you can't come in', to which you reply, 'oh, sorry, wrong passport, how about this one instead?'
#16
Ali_G
-
- 35,200 posts
- Joined: August 00
Member
Posted 26 September 2000 - 17:36
Dougal : Couldn't agree with you more about Murray.
Someone said that Ireland has dropped its claimon the north. That is not entirely true.
Its claim a few years ago was that it had a claim to the north. Now the claim is on the people of the north.
Article 2 of Bunreacht na hEireann says
Anyone born on the Island of Ireland has his born right to be part of the Irish Nation.
So technically anyone born in the North of Ireland had dual citizenship as a UK and Ireland resident.
This is also the case in the south.
Since 1922 and the Treaty Britain has still kept strong links with The Republic of Ireland.
1. Ireland is the only country outside the Common Wealth which a person can get a Knighthood from the Queen.
2. you do not need a passport to go from Ireland to the UK.
3. Any Irish person North or South has his right if he or she wishes to get a UK passport. So technically anyone born in the South of Ireland has his right to have dual citizenship aswell.
At the moment the North is a tricky matter. Technically the South have a very ligitamte claim to it. Before 1918 and the Act of Parliament Ireland was whole. Before 1801 Ireland was a seperate country. So technically Britain has less of a claim to the north than the South does.
Niall
Someone said that Ireland has dropped its claimon the north. That is not entirely true.
Its claim a few years ago was that it had a claim to the north. Now the claim is on the people of the north.
Article 2 of Bunreacht na hEireann says
Anyone born on the Island of Ireland has his born right to be part of the Irish Nation.
So technically anyone born in the North of Ireland had dual citizenship as a UK and Ireland resident.
This is also the case in the south.
Since 1922 and the Treaty Britain has still kept strong links with The Republic of Ireland.
1. Ireland is the only country outside the Common Wealth which a person can get a Knighthood from the Queen.
2. you do not need a passport to go from Ireland to the UK.
3. Any Irish person North or South has his right if he or she wishes to get a UK passport. So technically anyone born in the South of Ireland has his right to have dual citizenship aswell.
At the moment the North is a tricky matter. Technically the South have a very ligitamte claim to it. Before 1918 and the Act of Parliament Ireland was whole. Before 1801 Ireland was a seperate country. So technically Britain has less of a claim to the north than the South does.
Niall
