57 replies to this topic

[Jones Foyer]

Hello all, I am doing some research for a digital model I am building of the Honda RA270 prototype car built in late 1963. I was able to discern from the few photos I has that it was running Dunlop R-5's (6.50-15's in back, maybe 5.50-15's in front). The only clear sidewall shot I have I can see that the lettering for the logo is in a block type which must have changed to the more familiar serif italic type. Does anyone have any good photos of the sidewall of this tire? I have really good tread reference.

Also, did they apply the green dot on these tires, or did they do that later?

Thanks for any help!

[rbm]

If no one come back on this I'll try to remember to dig out one of my 5.50x15 R5 from 1961/62 and photograph it for you - but it woun't be 'till next weekend.

[RS2000]

R6 was "green spot" (and "white spot"?) but R5 a bit before my time I'm afraid.

[Rosemayer]

The green spot tires were for rain only the white were for dry.


http://www.stuckey.c.../evolution.aspx

[RS2000]

Green spot was in regular rally use (some dry smoooth gravel as well as tarmac all conditions) by BMC works team etc.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by RS2000
Green spot was in regular rally use (some dry smoooth gravel as well as tarmac all conditions) by BMC works team etc.

Someone with a handle bar moustache once told me that Aussie Minis were the first sedans to use racing tyres at Bathurst

[Jones Foyer]

Originally posted by rbm
If no one come back on this I'll try to remember to dig out one of my 5.50x15 R5 from 1961/62 and photograph it for you - but it woun't be 'till next weekend.

Wonderful info from everyone. That would be fantastic if you could take a pic. A direct side shot of the sidewall would be very helpful!

[PS30-SB]

Originally posted by Jones Foyer
.........the Honda RA270 prototype car built in late 1963. I was able to discern from the few photos I has that it was running Dunlop R-5's (6.50-15's in back, maybe 5.50-15's in front)........

Would they have been Japanese made Dunlops by 1963? Just a few years later they certainly would have been......

[Jones Foyer]

Originally posted by PS30-SB


Would they have been Japanese made Dunlops by 1963? Just a few years later they certainly would have been......

I never would have guessed, but that is certainly possible. The wheels they used as well were Dunlop stamped steel it appears. Maybe they ordered the whole set.

The car they used as reference was a Cooper T51 they purchased earlier, so it is entirely possible they scavenged the parts off of it.

[Dave Wright]

Originally posted by Jones Foyer


The car they used as reference was a Cooper T51 they purchased earlier, so it is entirely possible they scavenged the parts off of it.

Sounds possible - the R5 was obsolete in late 1963, replaced by the R6. The D12 compound (green spot) tyre was originally intended as the wet compound but was in regular use for dry races in F1 by 1963. I'm not sure when the green spot was actually introduced to indicate compound. It was in use on 1963 R6s but I'm not sure about earlier R5s.

[rbm]

not great pictures but anyway:


http://farm4.static....032bab768_b.jpg

http://farm4.static....24edc0730_b.jpg

[ry6]

From memory, in the 1950's Pirelli for the Italian teams and Continental for Mercedes Benz seemed to dominate in the tyre stakes. There was also a name like Engelbert? for Ferrari later on but then Dunlop seemed to 'rule the roost' in Grand Prix racing from the late 1950's and up to say 1965 or so?

(Did Vanwall used Avon?)

I have never given much thought to the 1950-1960 era regarding the advantage (if much) of tyres with a competitive advantage. Did the race tyre suppliers do much in the way of research back then? Was there much choice in compounds?

As a matter of interest many of the Southern African race drivers of the pre-1962 era raced their 'specials' on Michelin X road tyres - with which they were very impressed. (Cost and availability of race tyres being the constraint)

Up to say 1962 the tyres on the international formula one cars seemd to be 'tall' and narrow as opposed to the lower profiles to follow.

I remember that circa 1964 tyres became wider and more squat. In wonder we described the new type of racing tyre as 'wide as a man's back' (OK we didn't say which man.)This seemed to co-incide with the move from 1.5 litres to 3 litre formula.

Am I correct in thinking that in general teams were free to choose as regards tyres went and could switch suppliers?

I have used Springbok Grand Prix as a dating reference for tyre development from 1965 only because the first GP of the season was the South African.

The following naive exerpt from Springbok Grand Prix on the 1965 January South African GP - "Most interesting aspect of practice was the 'tyre war'. Several drivers were trying out new Goodyear 'doughnuts'. Their rivals Dunlop also had officials, who were walking about the pits helping drivers select correct tyre pressures. Main feature about the tyres was their width. They were wider and more squat than ever before and several drivers commented that this helped a great deal in bettering lap times. American Dan Gurney was signed to race on Goodyears, as were the Willment team, but practically everyone else were on the well tried and proven Dunlops."

(Gurney drove a Brabham so it would appear that Jack Brabham used Dunlops?)

More quotes from "Springbok"

1965 December Rand Grand Prix first aware - "It was interesting to see representatives from the rival tyre firms, Dunlop, Goodyear and Firestone, buzzing about the pits. Firestone was the latest tyre firm to break into the 'rubber war'...."

In the January 1966 South African Grand Prix - "the 'tyre war' was in full swing" For this race Goodyear had entered the fray, but most runners were on Dunlop R7 white spots and some used Firestones.

1967 January SAGP - "The tyre war was the keenest ever". Firestone seemed to have become the most popular and claimed the cars running on their GP R 125 improved their times by half a second a lap."

1968 SAGP - In this race Stewart was the only Dulop runner among 15 Firestone users and 7 Goodyear users.

Can anyone offer anything on a) tyre choice b) compounds etc

[Dave Wright]

Originally posted by ry6
[B]From memory, in the 1950's Pirelli for the Italian teams and Continental for Mercedes Benz seemed to dominate in the tyre stakes. There was also a name like Engelbert? for Ferrari later on but then Dunlop seemed to 'rule the roost' in Grand Prix racing from the late 1950's and up to say 1965 or so?

(Did Vanwall used Avon?)

Vanwall used Pirelli in 1956 and 1957, and switched to Dunlop in 1958.

Am I correct in thinking that in general teams were free to choose as regards tyres went and could switch suppliers?

I think it depended on the contract. In 1955 for example, Ferrari were tied to Englebert and couln't run the D50s at Monza because the Englebert wasn't suitable and the tie to Englebert wouldn't let them use Pirelli.

The following naive exerpt from Springbok Grand Prix on the 1965 January South African GP - "Most interesting aspect of practice was the 'tyre war'. Several drivers were trying out new Goodyear 'doughnuts'. Their rivals Dunlop also had officials, who were walking about the pits helping drivers select correct tyre pressures. Main feature about the tyres was their width. They were wider and more squat than ever before and several drivers commented that this helped a great deal in bettering lap times. American Dan Gurney was signed to race on Goodyears, as were the Willment team, but practically everyone else were on the well tried and proven Dunlops."

(Gurney drove a Brabham so it would appear that Jack Brabham used Dunlops?)

I'm pretty certain the Brabham team was tied to Goodyear in 1965 so Jack used them as well as Dan.

But sometimes arrangements were more flexible. For example in 66, Ferrari were nominally Firestone shod but the they also ran Dunlop if they wanted (such as at Spa which was wet). BRM were nominally Dunlop shod in 66 but again they ran Goodyear as well.

[RogerFrench]

"Corners by Dunlop" became popular in the late 50s, '58 I think. Wheel, tyre and, maybe, brake combination. They pretty well had a monopoly for several years thereafter.
1964 was when I noticed tyres getting wider - vide Lotus 33 vs 25.

The Dunlop wheels, by the way, were probably cast alloy, not steel I'm guessing.

[Jones Foyer]

Originally posted by rbm
not great pictures but anyway:


http://farm4.static....032bab768_b.jpg

http://farm4.static....24edc0730_b.jpg

Wonderful! I couldn't see the character of the font from the picture I have, but that is the right one. Interesting!

[Jones Foyer]

RA270
This is the wheel and tire package I am trying to recreate. Pictures of this car are very scarce as it was never run publicly. The wheel is stamped and I'm pretty sure in another photo i have that it says "Dunlop" on the wheel though I might be mistaken. They are similar, but a size smaller than the stamped wheels that were run on the
RA271.

[rbm]

will colour the text with chalk and re-photograph, or just copy down what all the text says.

[Jones Foyer]

Originally posted by rbm
will colour the text with chalk and re-photograph, or just copy down what all the text says.

Oh, No need to trouble yourself. I think I am all set!

[RSTUCKEY]

We carry a full range of Dunlop Vintage and Historic race tyres, R5, R6, R7 etc.
These are made in the original moulds and the R5 does have an earlier 'block' style font.
I have taken some pics but not sure how to send to you. Perhaps you can contact me.
I understand that the Green Spot compound (and identification) was introduced with the R5 pattern.
Regards,
Russell Stuckey

[ry6]

I am sure that I have a photo of Tony Brooks somewhere that shows an Avon badge on his overall.

It was when he was driving for Vanwall I think.

Is it not possible that Vanwall then used Avon - or some of its drivers? Would the drivers in the teams of that time be able to use a tyre of choice - that is say Moss using Dunlop, Brooks Avon?

[D-Type]

Originally posted by ry6
I am sure that I have a photo of Tony Brooks somewhere that shows an Avon badge on his overall.

It was when he was driving for Vanwall I think.

Is it not possible that Vanwall then used Avon - or some of its drivers? Would the drivers in the teams of that time be able to use a tyre of choice - that is say Moss using Dunlop, Brooks Avon?

Aston Martin used Avons, Tony Brooks was still driving for Aston Martin in 1957-58 when he was driving for Vanwall ...

[Sharman]

Early Minis had problems with the centres pulling out and the first competition wheels supplied by BMC Comps were stamped MG. Who made them is anybody's guess

[RS2000]

Originally posted by Sharman
Early Minis had problems with the centres pulling out and the first competition wheels supplied by BMC Comps were stamped MG. Who made them is anybody's guess

According to Brian Moylan's book the stamping was carried out on new production strengthened wheels at Abingdon, and only those wheels were passed by scrutineers in the UK for a time. I guess the normal supplier made them (Rubery Owen?).
This had all boiled over before my time and no one was checking by then. All std Mini wheels had been made to the strengthend spec for some time and the Cooper S had introduced a different design of wheel, both std 3.5J and Gp2 homologated 4.5J. I cannot recall why but I needed a few std Mini wheels and got some from J. A. Pearce nearby in Southall as they converted std wheels to 4.5J, both std type and Cooper S. I never did use them and sold them to someone in the local motor club, only for the centres to pull out on an autotest...

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by RSTUCKEY
We carry a full range of Dunlop Vintage and Historic race tyres, R5, R6, R7 etc.
These are made in the original moulds and the R5 does have an earlier 'block' style font.
I have taken some pics but not sure how to send to you. Perhaps you can contact me.
I understand that the Green Spot compound (and identification) was introduced with the R5 pattern.
Regards,
Russell Stuckey

Welcome Russell...it would help if you let people know you are in Melbourne(?) Australia

Cheers, Mick

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Sharman
Early Minis had problems with the centres pulling out and the first competition wheels supplied by BMC Comps were stamped MG. Who made them is anybody's guess

I think you may be refering to the early hub-to-rim rivetted examples...

[Doug Nye]

Dunlop 7.00L-13 rear, 1964.

DCN

[rbm]

I assume that the R5 tread pattern changed in period?

I have the set mentioned earlier and they are slightly different that the modern set on my Cooper 500, or are the modern R5's not quite the same?

[Doug Nye]

Does my memory betray me (again) or did not the R5 tread pattern comprise the interlinked wine glass curves, R6 the 'WWW' interlink? I think that's right. My Dunlop feature in 'Autosport' '68 would be one source of confirmation.

DCN

[RSTUCKEY]

I have published a brief history of the evolution of DUNLOP race tyres at http://www.stuckey.c.../evolution.aspx
Hope this helps,
Russell Stuckey (Melbourne Australia)

[seldo]

Originally posted by RSTUCKEY
I have published a brief history of the evolution of DUNLOP race tyres at http://www.stuckey.c.../evolution.aspx
Hope this helps,
Russell Stuckey (Melbourne Australia)

Thanks - A good read Russell. Surely you're not still at it are you?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by seldo
Thanks - A good read Russell. Surely you're not still at it are you?

It's amazing who they allow in here, isn't it?

Welcome Russell, maybe you'll introduce yourself in the thread on the top of the page?

[ry6]

After troubles with the centres of the wheels of early Minis "pulling out" (wheel breakage) a wheel stamped "RO11" was fitted to all Minis.

When we wanted wheels to widen for our Minis we scoured the scrapyards for RO11's. They never gave any trouble.

Of course the Cooper S's had a wheel with cooling holes around it. Then you could buy the 'competition' Cooper S wheel - it was 4 and a half inches wide. Even then they weren't prohibitively expensive. That was a whole inch wider than the standard wheel and looked every bit the part!

I digress - BUT those WERE the days.

[275 GTB-4]

Mini racing tyre, as new from the 1960s...I thought Mal said they were R5/6/Green Spot??

[ianselva]

I think that is a CR70 slick that came in for Minis about 1969/70.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by ianselva
I think that is a CR70 slick that came in for Minis about 1969/70.

I think it needs a good few more laps before it becomes a slick!

[paulhooft]

I am looking for an mid 1960's publication by Mickey Thompson about the racing tyre of the Future..
Back in the sixties, I had a dutch translation from the Dutch carmagazine: Auto Visie..
Any help is welcome!
Pch

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton
I think it needs a good few more laps before it becomes a slick!

The atmosphere in Mal's barn would ensure that any attempt to wear the rest of that R6 tread off would require lots of miles of very hard driving!

[Jones Foyer]

Originally posted by RSTUCKEY
We carry a full range of Dunlop Vintage and Historic race tyres, R5, R6, R7 etc.
These are made in the original moulds and the R5 does have an earlier 'block' style font.
I have taken some pics but not sure how to send to you. Perhaps you can contact me.
I understand that the Green Spot compound (and identification) was introduced with the R5 pattern.
Regards,
Russell Stuckey

Oh cool! I'm familiar with your tires! Very nice.

I was able to get good reference from a few books and although the letters aren't so clear, you can see an obvious dot logo and some that look like a "P" in a circle..

Page 90 of Anthony Carter's "Motor Racing Reflections of a Lost Era" for example.

The lettering ended up being not as important as it isn't very clear to see in the final images. I'll post the entire car images later, but here's a teaser:

[macoran]

Originally posted by Jones Foyer
I'll post the entire car images later, but here's a teaser:

That looks very good, can't wait for more !!

[David Kipling]

;)

Dunlop R5's used to crop up in odd corners: here on the rear of a Fiat 600-bodied car raced in England by Rod Dore in the mid 1960's. The car had an Olds Rocket motor running through a Ferrari Superamerica box -- a curious combination explained by the fact that Dore had been a Vanwall race mechanic before he raced stock cars. Incidentally, Rod also raced in New Zealand in a stock car built by Bruce McLaren Motors in Te Atatu.

[Jones Foyer]

Finished! Thanks for the help!

[Alan Cox]

That looks fabulous. And the tyres are brilliant.

[macoran]

Euhm...............WE WANT MORE !!!!!!

fabulous !!

[fines]

Incredible!

[Rosemayer]

Originally posted by seldo

Thanks - A good read Russell. Surely you're not still at it are you?

Anybody look at post 4?

[Jones Foyer]

Originally posted by macoran
Euhm...............WE WANT MORE !!!!!!

fabulous !!

Thanks!



Ronnie Bucknum tested with the familiar ivory white with red sun paint job...

[fines]

These images look so perfect, I wonder... Has anybody ever tried to reproduce one of, say, Maurits Escher's impossible worlds into a computer graphic? Would make for stunning viewing, I'll bet!

[britishtrident]

Originally posted by Sharman
Early Minis had problems with the centres pulling out and the first competition wheels supplied by BMC Comps were stamped MG. Who made them is anybody's guess

Yes the increased the material thickness circa 1964

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by britishtrident
Yes the increased the material thickness circa 1964

and started welding the centres rather than riveting them a little earlier...

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by Jones Foyer
Finished! Thanks for the help!

Brilliant! Could you post some detail pictures, and one with a common object to get an idea of scale/size? Thanks!

Jack