It has been 7 years since we brought this up on this BB. I tried to reply the original thread but it been archived. I have been seriously considering building an Extreme 360 after realising that I may be unable to reasonably is afford the real thing. Also I thought this project would be interesting for me. The problem I am having is that the 406 Coupe ias a donor car is really expensive in South Africa and I would really prefer to have something rear engined. There are several MR2 based replicas available, which may in the end be more cost effective to the 406, but the final result is not as good - and more importantly, its a 60hour job without much of the techinal stimulation that I would be wanting.
OK enough about me. Any of you built a kit car? Please share your experiences
Kit Cars
Started by
Christiaan
, Mar 30 2008 21:54
192 replies to this topic
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#2
phantom II
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- 1,784 posts
- Joined: September 05
Member
Posted 31 March 2008 - 00:52
Where have you been? I was in your country in January. There are several Kit Car companies in SA that export to the US. Superformance in Port Elizabeth and Backdraft in Durban. www.backdraftracing.com
There are others like CAV in Cape Town who build BDRs GT 40s for them. These company's products range from Cobras to Daytona Coupes to GT 40s and 7s. Superformance also builds the Noble cars and numerous other cars in white.
Shelby cars are built @ SPF including the Polish made aluminum body versions. They are actually Kirkham kits made at an old MiG factory in Poland.
Backdraft uses 3 series BMW suspension parts including rear axles and differential. Superformance has its own double A arm two tube chassis.
Superformance's Daytona Coupe is designed by Peter Brock. The designer of the original one.
You had better have a lot of start up capital if you wish to sell overseas because your kits will be on the water for 5 weeks to the US and maybe two months to the customer if there are no hurricanes. You will have to have funds for at least 16 kits and pack 8 into a 40ft container at a time, sent at 4 week intervals. The shipping costs will be $6 or 7000/container without the cost of the steel support structure inside each container. Another $3000. The dealer will want $7000 over the landed cost if you car retails for $40 000 or more. The distributor must be registered as an agent of service of process for your company in the US. He must also be a licensed motor manufacturer and in some states, they are two separate entities.
A turn key car may require yet a 3rd company. Each will require a separate liability insurance policy. Expect positive cash flow to begin in 2 years if you sell each shipment immediately. Fewer cars than what I have stated will not be economically viable.
I think SA requires foreign funds before you can ship your containers and I don't know what beurocracy you will have to go thru that side to get things established.
Do your sums carefully. Marketing costs must be included in the wholesale price. Do you know if your local market is big enough for your car?
I would visit the companies I mentioned and maybe they can build it for you if they think it is a viable product. Run the idea by them before you start.
Replicas are far less risky than original designs but there is no fun building a replica. You can't have any self respect if you build a replica.
Fords derivatives are the most popular replicas. There are nearly 200 Cobra manufactures in the world and over 4000 are sold in the US each year. Factory 5 USA sells the most Cobra kits because he is a whiz at production innovation and he has meticulous control of costs. It would behoove you to see 3 completely different ways to design and build what essentially ends up being the same Cobra replica.
If the car is a replica, it only requires smog controls of that time period no matter what year the engine is. A scratch design requires smog controls for the engine model year. Only 7 states have the SEMA model specialty car registration requirements. Other states may be difficult to register the car and insurance companies freak out at such cars. Some states allow regisdstration of the donar car that the used parts come from and must include the engine which has the number.
Best is to just sell the design to an established manufacturer in order to wear just one hat. The fun part is creating a working prototype, the rest is not fun for the unsuspecting dreamer.
I build cars for myself only so I don't have to worry about production costs. I build them to comply with DOT section 49 including simulated frontal and side impact crash tests and current smog laws just for the hell of it.
People ask me to build one for them sometimes. They tellme that they can buy a new Ferrari for that price. So I say, "**** off already you prick, build your own damned car," is my usual come back.
Unless you build your own car, you have no idea what it entails and neither does anybody else.
Everybody dreams of building an exotic mid engined supercar, but I know 3 guys who went broke doing so. I knew what I was getting into before I started. I'm building another one now as we speak. Each time it gets better and easier. I may even build an electric one and become a communist.
I used to manufacture smaller products such as scooters and generators and 4 wheelers in very high volumes in China. No matter which way I looked at it, a car didn't make any sense for a business model. Low volume is way too risky for me. Build a car and see if you can generate interest in the market you wish to be in. You must have a car in that market that which can be released to the press. If they love it, you're in. The UK may be easier for you than the US.
Go ahead, just build a car for the hell of it and fix all the problems that you encounter. It will be a blast. Take the next step at your discretion when it is time. Try a high performance electric car.
Your first production car will cost 5 times more than your first prototype excluding testing and development costs of pre-production models. The prototype will cost $100 000 and one year of your time with you doing most of the work.
Get Kit Car Builder magazine and talk to the guys I mentioned above to see how it is done. www.kitcarclub.com Good luck.
There are others like CAV in Cape Town who build BDRs GT 40s for them. These company's products range from Cobras to Daytona Coupes to GT 40s and 7s. Superformance also builds the Noble cars and numerous other cars in white.
Shelby cars are built @ SPF including the Polish made aluminum body versions. They are actually Kirkham kits made at an old MiG factory in Poland.
Backdraft uses 3 series BMW suspension parts including rear axles and differential. Superformance has its own double A arm two tube chassis.
Superformance's Daytona Coupe is designed by Peter Brock. The designer of the original one.
You had better have a lot of start up capital if you wish to sell overseas because your kits will be on the water for 5 weeks to the US and maybe two months to the customer if there are no hurricanes. You will have to have funds for at least 16 kits and pack 8 into a 40ft container at a time, sent at 4 week intervals. The shipping costs will be $6 or 7000/container without the cost of the steel support structure inside each container. Another $3000. The dealer will want $7000 over the landed cost if you car retails for $40 000 or more. The distributor must be registered as an agent of service of process for your company in the US. He must also be a licensed motor manufacturer and in some states, they are two separate entities.
A turn key car may require yet a 3rd company. Each will require a separate liability insurance policy. Expect positive cash flow to begin in 2 years if you sell each shipment immediately. Fewer cars than what I have stated will not be economically viable.
I think SA requires foreign funds before you can ship your containers and I don't know what beurocracy you will have to go thru that side to get things established.
Do your sums carefully. Marketing costs must be included in the wholesale price. Do you know if your local market is big enough for your car?
I would visit the companies I mentioned and maybe they can build it for you if they think it is a viable product. Run the idea by them before you start.
Replicas are far less risky than original designs but there is no fun building a replica. You can't have any self respect if you build a replica.
Fords derivatives are the most popular replicas. There are nearly 200 Cobra manufactures in the world and over 4000 are sold in the US each year. Factory 5 USA sells the most Cobra kits because he is a whiz at production innovation and he has meticulous control of costs. It would behoove you to see 3 completely different ways to design and build what essentially ends up being the same Cobra replica.
If the car is a replica, it only requires smog controls of that time period no matter what year the engine is. A scratch design requires smog controls for the engine model year. Only 7 states have the SEMA model specialty car registration requirements. Other states may be difficult to register the car and insurance companies freak out at such cars. Some states allow regisdstration of the donar car that the used parts come from and must include the engine which has the number.
Best is to just sell the design to an established manufacturer in order to wear just one hat. The fun part is creating a working prototype, the rest is not fun for the unsuspecting dreamer.
I build cars for myself only so I don't have to worry about production costs. I build them to comply with DOT section 49 including simulated frontal and side impact crash tests and current smog laws just for the hell of it.
People ask me to build one for them sometimes. They tellme that they can buy a new Ferrari for that price. So I say, "**** off already you prick, build your own damned car," is my usual come back.
Unless you build your own car, you have no idea what it entails and neither does anybody else.
Everybody dreams of building an exotic mid engined supercar, but I know 3 guys who went broke doing so. I knew what I was getting into before I started. I'm building another one now as we speak. Each time it gets better and easier. I may even build an electric one and become a communist.
I used to manufacture smaller products such as scooters and generators and 4 wheelers in very high volumes in China. No matter which way I looked at it, a car didn't make any sense for a business model. Low volume is way too risky for me. Build a car and see if you can generate interest in the market you wish to be in. You must have a car in that market that which can be released to the press. If they love it, you're in. The UK may be easier for you than the US.
Go ahead, just build a car for the hell of it and fix all the problems that you encounter. It will be a blast. Take the next step at your discretion when it is time. Try a high performance electric car.
Your first production car will cost 5 times more than your first prototype excluding testing and development costs of pre-production models. The prototype will cost $100 000 and one year of your time with you doing most of the work.
Get Kit Car Builder magazine and talk to the guys I mentioned above to see how it is done. www.kitcarclub.com Good luck.
Originally posted by Christiaan
It has been 7 years since we brought this up on this BB. I tried to reply the original thread but it been archived. I have been seriously considering building an Extreme 360 after realising that I may be unable to reasonably is afford the real thing. Also I thought this project would be interesting for me. The problem I am having is that the 406 Coupe ias a donor car is really expensive in South Africa and I would really prefer to have something rear engined. There are several MR2 based replicas available, which may in the end be more cost effective to the 406, but the final result is not as good - and more importantly, its a 60hour job without much of the techinal stimulation that I would be wanting.
OK enough about me. Any of you built a kit car? Please share your experiences
#3
dead_eye
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- 50 posts
- Joined: November 06
Member
Posted 31 March 2008 - 12:35
phantom- i think hes talking about building a kit car for his own use not designing and producing cars to sell
ive built an ultima gtr for a friend, a westfield and 2 low end seven replicas aswell. From personal experience always buy the best kit you can the ultima was sooooo easy to build i was astonished with the level of fit and quality being equal to big name sports car manufacturer anyday of the week. the cheap 7 replicas on the other hand were a nightmare with poorly fitting parts, parts left out (oh sorry did we forget to tell you the alternator needs remounting and theres nowere to put it) that sort of thing.
converting a car youve already got could be easier or it could be a nightmare depending on the build of the car nd how easy it comes to bits and rust etc. Personally i would speak to an insurance company and see if they had a bare chassis up for sale and start from the ground up.
Incidentally i know a guy that wanted a bmw m3 but couldnt afford it, so he got a chassis off of an insurance company and built the car up bit by bit like a kit car leaving all the bits he didnt want off and keeping all the bits he did. He ended up with a 500bhp weekend weapon for peanuts compared to the cost of buying a good m3 and then stripping it all out etc. maybe the same could work for you?
ive built an ultima gtr for a friend, a westfield and 2 low end seven replicas aswell. From personal experience always buy the best kit you can the ultima was sooooo easy to build i was astonished with the level of fit and quality being equal to big name sports car manufacturer anyday of the week. the cheap 7 replicas on the other hand were a nightmare with poorly fitting parts, parts left out (oh sorry did we forget to tell you the alternator needs remounting and theres nowere to put it) that sort of thing.
converting a car youve already got could be easier or it could be a nightmare depending on the build of the car nd how easy it comes to bits and rust etc. Personally i would speak to an insurance company and see if they had a bare chassis up for sale and start from the ground up.
Incidentally i know a guy that wanted a bmw m3 but couldnt afford it, so he got a chassis off of an insurance company and built the car up bit by bit like a kit car leaving all the bits he didnt want off and keeping all the bits he did. He ended up with a 500bhp weekend weapon for peanuts compared to the cost of buying a good m3 and then stripping it all out etc. maybe the same could work for you?
#4
phantom II
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- 1,784 posts
- Joined: September 05
Member
Posted 31 March 2008 - 13:45
A one off car is a far cry from a kit car. Christiaan's thread's subject is 'Kit Cars'. Until he clarifies what he wants, I must assume that he means production.
It was no accident that the Ultima was easy to build. A one off car is far less compromised. Gordon Murray has a book on how to proceed with a production 'prototype'. He lays down 8 design objectives for each car he designs and fights to compromise any of them. Weight, rigidity, and low Cof G are the main ones. That is why the huge difference in cost of the prototype and the first production car. The BMW M8 designers didn't know if the car would sell. The difference between 5000 units per year and 30 000 was $250million and $800 million in industrialization costs. They didn't even meet production numbers for the 5000 units/year they chose. A $60 000 car was brought to the market for $130 000 and BMW lost on every one.
You may use 5 different Heims sizes in the protype and one in the production car. If you comply with crash test criteria, the structure may loose bending and torsional requirements for suspension hard points. It is a good idea to make a prototype keeping in mind the possibility of production. I do this, because I have brought so may products into production in the past.
You will have to design the parts that make the parts. Good quality moulds and jigs, to commensurate with volume, is not cheap. One clamp will cost $70, not to talk about flat tables. Before you begin, do you have access to CAD and 3D modeling programs. How much shop equipment do you have? How about the skills required to produce a full size clay model let alone the 1/4 scale concepts? Where will you treat the parts for corrosion prevention? Where will you paint the car and the parts?
Most of what you do will be outsourced so the data pack that you send to pipe benders, laser/hydro profilers and other machine shops has to be exact and compatible with their CNC machines. The higher the volume, the more expensive the industrialization becomes. You have to reduce the labor intensity so you have to go to RTM moulds instead of hand laid methods of construction and computer sequenced welding apparatus. A fiberglass mould will produce less than 100 parts and the last 25 will be out of spec. The whole design will be compromised if you buy existing OEM parts. If you decide to make your own, such as , seats, exhaust, radiator, gas tank, suspension parts, uprights, etc, you are looking at additional development costs. There are things that despite all your efforts, simply won't work out. You may have to try a bunch of springs and shocks that don't jive with your calculations. I never have gotten shocks right yet. An ARB will make you revise spring and shock rates all over again. Will the steering ratio cause undue effort for the driver? Power steering will not allow you to meet the weight design objective, and so on.
If you make your own pedal box, will the brake pedal travel enable you to heal and toe properly, considering the different cylinder diameters of the master and slave cylinders. Will the line pressure be sufficient for the front discs? How about pedal effort? Will the bias valve be within adjustable parameters. The fulcrum of the brake pedal may not give the leverage you want. Going to power brakes changes the whole equation and adds weight.
Actually, solving all of the above problems is part of the enjoyment but you had better have the resources to do it. One more thing, the name you choose for it has to be researched and registered as you will have to do with your trade mark. I have just touched the tip of the iceberg here..
It was no accident that the Ultima was easy to build. A one off car is far less compromised. Gordon Murray has a book on how to proceed with a production 'prototype'. He lays down 8 design objectives for each car he designs and fights to compromise any of them. Weight, rigidity, and low Cof G are the main ones. That is why the huge difference in cost of the prototype and the first production car. The BMW M8 designers didn't know if the car would sell. The difference between 5000 units per year and 30 000 was $250million and $800 million in industrialization costs. They didn't even meet production numbers for the 5000 units/year they chose. A $60 000 car was brought to the market for $130 000 and BMW lost on every one.
You may use 5 different Heims sizes in the protype and one in the production car. If you comply with crash test criteria, the structure may loose bending and torsional requirements for suspension hard points. It is a good idea to make a prototype keeping in mind the possibility of production. I do this, because I have brought so may products into production in the past.
You will have to design the parts that make the parts. Good quality moulds and jigs, to commensurate with volume, is not cheap. One clamp will cost $70, not to talk about flat tables. Before you begin, do you have access to CAD and 3D modeling programs. How much shop equipment do you have? How about the skills required to produce a full size clay model let alone the 1/4 scale concepts? Where will you treat the parts for corrosion prevention? Where will you paint the car and the parts?
Most of what you do will be outsourced so the data pack that you send to pipe benders, laser/hydro profilers and other machine shops has to be exact and compatible with their CNC machines. The higher the volume, the more expensive the industrialization becomes. You have to reduce the labor intensity so you have to go to RTM moulds instead of hand laid methods of construction and computer sequenced welding apparatus. A fiberglass mould will produce less than 100 parts and the last 25 will be out of spec. The whole design will be compromised if you buy existing OEM parts. If you decide to make your own, such as , seats, exhaust, radiator, gas tank, suspension parts, uprights, etc, you are looking at additional development costs. There are things that despite all your efforts, simply won't work out. You may have to try a bunch of springs and shocks that don't jive with your calculations. I never have gotten shocks right yet. An ARB will make you revise spring and shock rates all over again. Will the steering ratio cause undue effort for the driver? Power steering will not allow you to meet the weight design objective, and so on.
If you make your own pedal box, will the brake pedal travel enable you to heal and toe properly, considering the different cylinder diameters of the master and slave cylinders. Will the line pressure be sufficient for the front discs? How about pedal effort? Will the bias valve be within adjustable parameters. The fulcrum of the brake pedal may not give the leverage you want. Going to power brakes changes the whole equation and adds weight.
Actually, solving all of the above problems is part of the enjoyment but you had better have the resources to do it. One more thing, the name you choose for it has to be researched and registered as you will have to do with your trade mark. I have just touched the tip of the iceberg here..
Originally posted by dead_eye
phantom- i think hes talking about building a kit car for his own use not designing and producing cars to sell
ive built an ultima gtr for a friend, a westfield and 2 low end seven replicas aswell. From personal experience always buy the best kit you can the ultima was sooooo easy to build i was astonished with the level of fit and quality being equal to big name sports car manufacturer anyday of the week. the cheap 7 replicas on the other hand were a nightmare with poorly fitting parts, parts left out (oh sorry did we forget to tell you the alternator needs remounting and theres nowere to put it) that sort of thing.
converting a car youve already got could be easier or it could be a nightmare depending on the build of the car nd how easy it comes to bits and rust etc. Personally i would speak to an insurance company and see if they had a bare chassis up for sale and start from the ground up.
Incidentally i know a guy that wanted a bmw m3 but couldnt afford it, so he got a chassis off of an insurance company and built the car up bit by bit like a kit car leaving all the bits he didnt want off and keeping all the bits he did. He ended up with a 500bhp weekend weapon for peanuts compared to the cost of buying a good m3 and then stripping it all out etc. maybe the same could work for you?
#5
ray b
-
- 2,969 posts
- Joined: January 01
Member
Posted 31 March 2008 - 16:20
I would suggest a FIERO
as they are cheap and eazy to find
the motor is in the right place to start with but under powered with 140 hp stock
but a lot of other GM motors are eazy proven swaps to get the power UP
eazy swaps inc the stock line of bigger v6s in the 60 deg family up to the new 3900 with 240 hp
they just bolt in and require wireing in a new CPU for the motor
everything from DOHC + turbo 4,Q4 or newer ecotec bolt in with a trans swap
to stock supercharged v6s [ 3800S3 ] minor mods produce 300+hp
to good old chevy V8s with carbs to FI to full race tuned with a kit adpter plate for the trans
all have been swapped in
my car has a caddy NorthStar DOHC 4v V8 with 300hp alloy motor
it is a basic bolt in with minor grinding needed to fit the stock trans with custom flywheel
now the el-tric's are a bit of work on the N* and that could be your teck bit
aftermarket CPU or a hacked chevy LS1 unit can be used as the caddy CPU is a nitemare with a stick
the rest of the car is eazy to up grade with tube A-arms and coilovers kits
13 '' vett brakes can be used with adpters or benbo's if you want to spend the bucks
while I didnot do a body swap there are a lot of custom and F or L car body kits
even a semi factory 308 call a Mera that was sold thru the dealers back in the 80's
the 308 does not require a frame strech unlike the bigger F or L cars to look right
I like my car stock but fast but to each their own!
I donot know if the 360 body is made for the Fiero
some links to N* Fiero swaps
http://www.fiero.nl/...TML/087315.html
http://www.fiero.nl/...TML/086234.html
http://www.fiero.nl/...L/088691-2.html
mera pic
http://www.hawaiian5...ra/IMG_3732.JPG
http://www.hawaiian50.com/mera/
as they are cheap and eazy to find
the motor is in the right place to start with but under powered with 140 hp stock
but a lot of other GM motors are eazy proven swaps to get the power UP
eazy swaps inc the stock line of bigger v6s in the 60 deg family up to the new 3900 with 240 hp
they just bolt in and require wireing in a new CPU for the motor
everything from DOHC + turbo 4,Q4 or newer ecotec bolt in with a trans swap
to stock supercharged v6s [ 3800S3 ] minor mods produce 300+hp
to good old chevy V8s with carbs to FI to full race tuned with a kit adpter plate for the trans
all have been swapped in
my car has a caddy NorthStar DOHC 4v V8 with 300hp alloy motor
it is a basic bolt in with minor grinding needed to fit the stock trans with custom flywheel
now the el-tric's are a bit of work on the N* and that could be your teck bit
aftermarket CPU or a hacked chevy LS1 unit can be used as the caddy CPU is a nitemare with a stick
the rest of the car is eazy to up grade with tube A-arms and coilovers kits
13 '' vett brakes can be used with adpters or benbo's if you want to spend the bucks
while I didnot do a body swap there are a lot of custom and F or L car body kits
even a semi factory 308 call a Mera that was sold thru the dealers back in the 80's
the 308 does not require a frame strech unlike the bigger F or L cars to look right
I like my car stock but fast but to each their own!
I donot know if the 360 body is made for the Fiero
some links to N* Fiero swaps
http://www.fiero.nl/...TML/087315.html
http://www.fiero.nl/...TML/086234.html
http://www.fiero.nl/...L/088691-2.html
mera pic
http://www.hawaiian5...ra/IMG_3732.JPG
http://www.hawaiian50.com/mera/
#6
robroy
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- 200 posts
- Joined: January 07
Member
Posted 31 March 2008 - 17:42
Originally posted by Christiaan
It has been 7 years since we brought this up on this BB. I tried to reply the original thread but it been archived. I have been seriously considering building an Extreme 360 after realising that I may be unable to reasonably is afford the real thing. Also I thought this project would be interesting for me. The problem I am having is that the 406 Coupe ias a donor car is really expensive in South Africa and I would really prefer to have something rear engined. There are several MR2 based replicas available, which may in the end be more cost effective to the 406, but the final result is not as good - and more importantly, its a 60hour job without much of the techinal stimulation that I would be wanting.
OK enough about me. Any of you built a kit car? Please share your experiences
I saw some Extreme 360s at a kit car show last year(UK). If aesthetics are your main consideration they are very realistic and have good proportions (with the exception of the tiny brakes on some). If you want it to look right don't forget to budget a few extra thousand pounds for big brakes. Could be very practical with all that space for shopping in the back!
The 355s based on MR2s looked too small, but most were at least well proportioned and looked like they'd be more fun to drive than the Extreme 360. The Fieros were less realistic. I don't think these type of kits offer much mechanical input when building, more a load of bodywork and paint.
Heres an idea of some of the work involved with the Extreme 360 (warning: very irritating music...)
If you want more technical stuff to do and you want to stick to a replica, you'll have to go for separate chassis style replicas like the GT40s or Cobras. Actually, the Hawk Stratos replica is very accurate too.
Supercar replicas aren't quite my cup of tea, but I have built a few space framed seven type kits and would strongly recommend building a kit car. With the more expensive kits you get good build manuals, good fit and you can decide which parts you want to make yourself and which to buy in. The more work that you do yourself, the more enjoyable the end result. Also, unlike rebuilding old cars, there's no rust or dirt do deal with.
#7
phantom II
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- 1,784 posts
- Joined: September 05
Member
Posted 31 March 2008 - 17:57
The Ferrari body kits don't see light of day in the US anymore. Ferrari gets quite nasty protecting its copywritten designs. I'm surprised that Ferrari allows this there. Ferrari objected to the fake Daytona Spider in Miami Vice and after lengthy court discussions it was decided that Ferrari would build a brand new specially built Testa Rosa Spider for the TV show instead. Ferrari went after a manufacturer of a F50 and made the owner destroy all moulds and inventory. A few were sold and still exist. An authorized 57 Testa Rosa and a 250 GTO are assembled in Florida. The aluminum bodies are made in Italy and allparts are from Ferrari.They aint cheap.
You can always modify a front engine car to make it a rear engined car.
I have done a feasibility study on a Corvette chassis and created a McLaren F1 body for it. This is quite an easy project.
I welded a 99 Mitsubishi Eclipse body onto the Corvette C5 chassis which was easier than fabricating the McLaren roof structure. This way, all the glass and wiper system and upholstery can be retained. Maybe you can do the same sort of thing with 406 Coupe.
What technical stimulation do you want? Create your own body kit for a MR2.
You can always modify a front engine car to make it a rear engined car.
I have done a feasibility study on a Corvette chassis and created a McLaren F1 body for it. This is quite an easy project.
I welded a 99 Mitsubishi Eclipse body onto the Corvette C5 chassis which was easier than fabricating the McLaren roof structure. This way, all the glass and wiper system and upholstery can be retained. Maybe you can do the same sort of thing with 406 Coupe.
What technical stimulation do you want? Create your own body kit for a MR2.
Originally posted by Christiaan
It has been 7 years since we brought this up on this BB. I tried to reply the original thread but it been archived. I have been seriously considering building an Extreme 360 after realising that I may be unable to reasonably is afford the real thing. Also I thought this project would be interesting for me. The problem I am having is that the 406 Coupe ias a donor car is really expensive in South Africa and I would really prefer to have something rear engined. There are several MR2 based replicas available, which may in the end be more cost effective to the 406, but the final result is not as good - and more importantly, its a 60hour job without much of the techinal stimulation that I would be wanting.
OK enough about me. Any of you built a kit car? Please share your experiences
#8
dead_eye
-
- 50 posts
- Joined: November 06
Member
Posted 31 March 2008 - 19:03
phantom- what hes talking about IS a kit car as in the car comes in bits and you build it, theres no prototyping etc jst the build and the tuning. hes after a car for himself why would he want to go into production?
#9
phantom II
-
- 1,784 posts
- Joined: September 05
Member
Posted 31 March 2008 - 23:02
Quote: "OK enough about me. Any of you built a kit car? Please share your experiences"
He didn't specify what type of 'experiences' did he? I'm encouraging him to think outside the box and broaden his horizons. Why would you want a FWD Ferrari? Robroy suggests kits that provide chassis. They are simple to make from scratch and it will provide much more satisfaction. While he is about it, some of his friends would want one also, so design accordingly. It will cost less than an inappropriate donor car. He wants rear wheel drive remember? Why involve himself with a piece of junk. Just build a car around a junk yard V6 transaxle, that's all. He can do it on the cheap and take several years doing it. That's why I suggested he visit the local guys who are in the business to get some ideas. He is an intelligent and resourceful guy and he may not have thought of alternatives. I'm trying to save him from gross embarrassment and ridicule whilst being very polite. Maybe he just wants the car to get pussy, I don't know? OK, so I went off at abit of a tangent, but it is usefull information none the less.
He didn't specify what type of 'experiences' did he? I'm encouraging him to think outside the box and broaden his horizons. Why would you want a FWD Ferrari? Robroy suggests kits that provide chassis. They are simple to make from scratch and it will provide much more satisfaction. While he is about it, some of his friends would want one also, so design accordingly. It will cost less than an inappropriate donor car. He wants rear wheel drive remember? Why involve himself with a piece of junk. Just build a car around a junk yard V6 transaxle, that's all. He can do it on the cheap and take several years doing it. That's why I suggested he visit the local guys who are in the business to get some ideas. He is an intelligent and resourceful guy and he may not have thought of alternatives. I'm trying to save him from gross embarrassment and ridicule whilst being very polite. Maybe he just wants the car to get pussy, I don't know? OK, so I went off at abit of a tangent, but it is usefull information none the less.
Originally posted by dead_eye
phantom- what hes talking about IS a kit car as in the car comes in bits and you build it, theres no prototyping etc jst the build and the tuning. hes after a car for himself why would he want to go into production?
#11
robroy
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- 200 posts
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Member
Posted 04 April 2008 - 19:00
Here's a Toyota MR-S based 360 replica:
http://www.maxpower.....asp?asset=1770
I think phantom makes a valid point that you'll probably get 'funny' comments from people if you build a Ferrari replica. I prefer dead eyes idea of rebuilding a real one:
http://autosource.biz/Ad/430.htm
Also, how to rebuild a 360:
http://www.specializ...ject-360-06.htm
Would be two or three times the price of an accurate replica though.
http://www.maxpower.....asp?asset=1770
I think phantom makes a valid point that you'll probably get 'funny' comments from people if you build a Ferrari replica. I prefer dead eyes idea of rebuilding a real one:
http://autosource.biz/Ad/430.htm
Also, how to rebuild a 360:
http://www.specializ...ject-360-06.htm
Would be two or three times the price of an accurate replica though.
#12
Christiaan
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Posted 04 April 2008 - 20:49
Well after deleting the unsavoury posts I will respond to you. Phantom, thank you very much for the input, however I wanted to buy something off the shelf and put it together for myself. I would very much appreciatte your expertise on chassis building because I do want to buy the kit from Extreme (and wouldn't mind a FWD Ferrari) however the cost of the donor car - the 406 Coupe - is too high to justify something I will create for fun, and not as an everyday car. The car will be a "one-off" from an off-the-shelf kit. I hope that clarifies everything.
My Challenge
I want to buy a 360 Kit from Extreme in the UK in the next couple of weeks - soon as I can see what chassis to put it on. The kit will cost me the equivalent of about R70k, but a 406Coupe is upwards of R90k. I have been liasing with the manufacturer of the kit for suitable alternatives.
One solution
Ideally I would like to find a good and cost effective spaceframe. A spaceframe is perfect because then I can have a RWD car and have prepare something I can use purely for weekend fun at Zwaartkops. I had spoken to DAV about supplying a chassis which I would then have to modify to my specs. CAVs car costs almost R600k for the components alone. The chassis is very pricey. Bailey Edwards has a GT40 chassis which retails (before assembly) for just under R70k - so for that I'd rather get a 406. It makes no sense for me to outlay R140k before I even start a build (especially in bullish stock market like here;)) seeing as over the build period I can expect to double or triple that amount.
Today I went to motorbooks looking for chassis construction literature - an even hoping to find chassis plans for sale. It would be even better for me if I could get plans that are done by an expert. I would like to take this thing on the track, so I would want to use a tested design. I couldn't find anything. After hours (and I mean hours) of surfing I didn't come up with much either.
Another Solution
I thought perhaps I could use a chassis from another old car (or truck) and modify it to mount an engine at the back. This would indeed be cheap, and would allow me to a frame build around the chassis to attach all the body parts. The challenge here is that I don't know where to start looking. I know that most trucks available in SA pre 1995 come with the kind of frame with the right amount of strength for carrying an engine in the rear. The Mazda series also seem to have the right wheelbase and can be lowered without upsetting steering geometry. The problem is the rear suspension - which is typically leafspring. Also I would need to find a suitable engine/gearbox combo with a neatly packaged rear diff. I am not all an expert in this area so am still seeking advice
Yet Another Solution
Go for the MR2 conversion. The catalogues make them look uber impressive as they shoot the car from attractive angles. I had a look at one that was on sale on Ebay, and the proportions look soooo wrong. So no - this is not a solution
Final Solution
Start from scratch - an option I have been considering. Building a true one off. Phantom, do you know anybody who I can give drawings to and can create fibreglass panels for me? I imagine it would be impossible to find someone at a reasonable price (ironically in Zimbabwe I had someone do it for me very cheaply - may he rest in peace) with good quality. I found a company in Pretoria who can do it in carbon fibre for about R6000 per square metre. That works out to about R100,000 just for the body work, which I think I'd be willing to pay if I knew that whatever chassis I was putting it on would be bullet proof and I could use the car everyday.
Hummmm
Anyway - as I had said to everybody - Tell me your experiences (if any)
My Challenge
I want to buy a 360 Kit from Extreme in the UK in the next couple of weeks - soon as I can see what chassis to put it on. The kit will cost me the equivalent of about R70k, but a 406Coupe is upwards of R90k. I have been liasing with the manufacturer of the kit for suitable alternatives.
One solution
Ideally I would like to find a good and cost effective spaceframe. A spaceframe is perfect because then I can have a RWD car and have prepare something I can use purely for weekend fun at Zwaartkops. I had spoken to DAV about supplying a chassis which I would then have to modify to my specs. CAVs car costs almost R600k for the components alone. The chassis is very pricey. Bailey Edwards has a GT40 chassis which retails (before assembly) for just under R70k - so for that I'd rather get a 406. It makes no sense for me to outlay R140k before I even start a build (especially in bullish stock market like here;)) seeing as over the build period I can expect to double or triple that amount.
Today I went to motorbooks looking for chassis construction literature - an even hoping to find chassis plans for sale. It would be even better for me if I could get plans that are done by an expert. I would like to take this thing on the track, so I would want to use a tested design. I couldn't find anything. After hours (and I mean hours) of surfing I didn't come up with much either.
Another Solution
I thought perhaps I could use a chassis from another old car (or truck) and modify it to mount an engine at the back. This would indeed be cheap, and would allow me to a frame build around the chassis to attach all the body parts. The challenge here is that I don't know where to start looking. I know that most trucks available in SA pre 1995 come with the kind of frame with the right amount of strength for carrying an engine in the rear. The Mazda series also seem to have the right wheelbase and can be lowered without upsetting steering geometry. The problem is the rear suspension - which is typically leafspring. Also I would need to find a suitable engine/gearbox combo with a neatly packaged rear diff. I am not all an expert in this area so am still seeking advice
Yet Another Solution
Go for the MR2 conversion. The catalogues make them look uber impressive as they shoot the car from attractive angles. I had a look at one that was on sale on Ebay, and the proportions look soooo wrong. So no - this is not a solution
Final Solution
Start from scratch - an option I have been considering. Building a true one off. Phantom, do you know anybody who I can give drawings to and can create fibreglass panels for me? I imagine it would be impossible to find someone at a reasonable price (ironically in Zimbabwe I had someone do it for me very cheaply - may he rest in peace) with good quality. I found a company in Pretoria who can do it in carbon fibre for about R6000 per square metre. That works out to about R100,000 just for the body work, which I think I'd be willing to pay if I knew that whatever chassis I was putting it on would be bullet proof and I could use the car everyday.
Hummmm
Anyway - as I had said to everybody - Tell me your experiences (if any)
#13
zac510
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- 1,713 posts
- Joined: January 04
Member
Posted 04 April 2008 - 20:59
What about the 7-replica kits that are built from donor Mx-5/Miatas. Might they have the right amount of technical challenge at moderate budget you need?
#14
robroy
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- 200 posts
- Joined: January 07
Member
Posted 04 April 2008 - 22:20
Originally posted by Christiaan
Another Solution
I thought perhaps I could use a chassis from another old car (or truck) and modify it to mount an engine at the back. This would indeed be cheap, and would allow me to a frame build around the chassis to attach all the body parts. The challenge here is that I don't know where to start looking. I know that most trucks available in SA pre 1995 come with the kind of frame with the right amount of strength for carrying an engine in the rear. The Mazda series also seem to have the right wheelbase and can be lowered without upsetting steering geometry. The problem is the rear suspension - which is typically leafspring. Also I would need to find a suitable engine/gearbox combo with a neatly packaged rear diff. I am not all an expert in this area so am still seeking advice
[
Might I point you in the way of a Lotus Esprit chassis?
I believe Lotus used a similar backbone chassis for the Esprit, Elan and Europa. These are very versatile and readily available new and galvanised or dirt cheap second hand. The Esprit has a similar width and I believe the chassis could quite easily be stretched by 150mm or so to match the 360 wheelbase. This should give you excellent handling and plenty of engine/gearbox options with V6's, V8's and Renault or Porsche transaxles possible.
#15
cheapracer
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- 10,388 posts
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Posted 05 April 2008 - 04:54
Phantom 11, fantastic stuff and hits right to home for me as I am now about at 60% stage for my PRODUCTION car.
This is my first production car prototype and the differences between it and building just a one off, racing cars or specials of which I have built or been involved in, are astounding.
Needless to say I am over time and budget, lol! (in between the tears!).
Using the Eclipse body is the sort of thing I am doing, not quite so elaborate but on the same theme and the big tip for anyone contemplating even a one off is to find a source car first. or example, if you want to build a mid engined car look for wiring looms and electrics from small carry vans because they are in the right place and wiring looms are important things.
Its 90% thinking about planning, the layout and sourcing, the rest is just manual labour and a lot of running around.
This is my first production car prototype and the differences between it and building just a one off, racing cars or specials of which I have built or been involved in, are astounding.
Needless to say I am over time and budget, lol! (in between the tears!).
Using the Eclipse body is the sort of thing I am doing, not quite so elaborate but on the same theme and the big tip for anyone contemplating even a one off is to find a source car first. or example, if you want to build a mid engined car look for wiring looms and electrics from small carry vans because they are in the right place and wiring looms are important things.
Its 90% thinking about planning, the layout and sourcing, the rest is just manual labour and a lot of running around.
#16
cheapracer
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- 10,388 posts
- Joined: May 07
Member
Posted 05 April 2008 - 05:18
Originally posted by Christiaan
My Challenge
I
Another Solution
I thought perhaps I could use a chassis from another old car (or truck) and modify it to mount an engine at the back. This would indeed be cheap, and would allow me to a frame build around the chassis to attach all the body parts. The challenge here is that I don't know where to start looking. I know that most trucks available in SA pre 1995 come with the kind of frame with the right amount of strength for carrying an engine in the rear. The Mazda series also seem to have the right wheelbase and can be lowered without upsetting steering geometry. The problem is the rear suspension - which is typically leafspring. Also I would need to find a suitable engine/gearbox combo with a neatly packaged rear diff. I am not all an expert in this area so am still seeking advice
Final Solution
Start from scratch - an option I have been considering. Building a true one off. Phantom, do you know anybody who I can give drawings to and can create fibreglass panels for me? Hummmm
(if any)
You sound like you want (rear) mid engine just for the sake of having mid engine. Most drivers will have more fun/success in a mid - front engine layout, they are much easier to push near the limit and slide around without suprises. The Van chassis is an attractive start for a FMid engine special as it already is FMid engined and a home made 5 link leaf rear axle works very well especially when it doesnt have production car restrictions. You may have to adapt rack and pinion steering as most are recirculating ball (not all) and rear disc setup, but these 2 are just options atleast you can drive it for a bit and contemplate them later. I myself have contemplated a small convertible built upon a small carry van chassis.
I'm suprised there isnt more body kits for series 1 Mazda RX7's around.
I can do your fibreglass stuff no problems, my partners make electric Tourist Shuffle buses, Golf and Police carts etc. and I have a fibreglass company at my disposal - but I'm a Continent away :-)
(and 1 friend is developing a 4 axis water cutter for an American Co. so that will be handy later to cut bucks from a CAD drawing, go to Phoenix Race cars and see how they did their F1000 buck with this process)
Oh and 1 more thing, if I was going to build a one off track day, Sunday mountain etc car tomorrow, I would be starting at the Campagna TRex website for lots of ideas. http://www.go-t-rex.com/
.
#17
Christiaan
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Posted 05 April 2008 - 07:23
Originally posted by zac510
What about the 7-replica kits that are built from donor Mx-5/Miatas. Might they have the right amount of technical challenge at moderate budget you need?
I suppose South Africa is a different place. MX5s are still relatively pricey here. A 1990 model will set you back R55k, that about USD 8k. There is a locally available Lotus type kit that comes just below USD 3k. However for me to get a permission slip from my wife, and most of the funding, I needed to make something more aesthetically pleasing (go figure
) so even the GT40 didn't meet her steep requirements.Originally posted by robroy
Might I point you in the way of a Lotus Esprit chassis?
Sounds like a great option, however after a quick internet search I found that car is not available here, and if I were to find one it would likely be very pricey. While we are on the subject of Esprits, here is a spyshot of the 2008 model. Looks like a Gallardo.
Originally posted by cheapracer
You sound like you want (rear) mid engine just for the sake of having mid engine. Most drivers will have more fun/success in a mid - front engine layout, they are much easier to push near the limit and slide around without suprises]
By mid - front engine layout I assume you mean FMR layout? If so I am inclined to agree with you on that. Am not sure which vans one would use tho? Do you know what layout the old VW Combi had?
#18
se7en_24
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- 21,466 posts
- Joined: March 01
Member
Posted 05 April 2008 - 08:17
I've seen the 406 Ferrari 'kit car' on eBay here and it looked pretty shoddy really. It's not really a kit car is it, more a bodykit that makes a Peugeot 406 look a bit like a Ferrari.
Currently I'm building a Locost 7 (Stuart Taylor chassis - http://www.ariesmotorsport.co.uk ) which is pretty fun, hopefully will have it done by next summer. It will be powered by a 1.8 Ford Zetec engine.
But ask yourself, do you really want to drive around in a 406 in drag?
EDIT: There is a huge debate about this replica here (I think you can guess which side of the fence I'm on ;)
http://www.pistonhea...30&t=257644&i=0
Currently I'm building a Locost 7 (Stuart Taylor chassis - http://www.ariesmotorsport.co.uk ) which is pretty fun, hopefully will have it done by next summer. It will be powered by a 1.8 Ford Zetec engine.
But ask yourself, do you really want to drive around in a 406 in drag?
EDIT: There is a huge debate about this replica here (I think you can guess which side of the fence I'm on ;)
http://www.pistonhea...30&t=257644&i=0
#19
Christiaan
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Tech Forum Host
Posted 05 April 2008 - 09:47
Not live in a 406 in drag, race in a 406 in drag over the weekends - very different concepts.
The Locost thing on the second website you gave has always been my preferred option. It costs 6 times less and is probably more fun to drive. There is even a racing series about 20km from where I stay. But the wife didnt like it at all! (long story)
The Locost thing on the second website you gave has always been my preferred option. It costs 6 times less and is probably more fun to drive. There is even a racing series about 20km from where I stay. But the wife didnt like it at all! (long story)
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#20
se7en_24
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Posted 05 April 2008 - 09:57
I'm lucky that my other half really liked the picture of a Caterham I sent her and I got the green light ;). I think she's changed her mind a bit now I'm forever in the garageOriginally posted by Christiaan
Not live in a 406 in drag, race in a 406 in drag over the weekends - very different concepts.
The Locost thing on the second website you gave has always been my preferred option. It costs 6 times less and is probably more fun to drive. There is even a racing series about 20km from where I stay. But the wife didnt like it at all! (long story)
.There is a good link of the build process of that 406 in the thread. It does look quite interesting to build but I just can't bring myself to like the final concept of a front engine, 4 seated 360 with a plastic engine in the rear. As you can see on that thread though there are a lot of people do like the idea, it is a very polarising kit in that regard. I'd be interested to see your progress though if you do go for it!
#21
Christiaan
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Posted 05 April 2008 - 10:12
Thats another thing - my boss bought a 7 replica, and his wife and my wife are friends. He used to spend too much time in the garagegarage coz the thing always broke down and was high maintenance. He bought turnkey GT40 which hardly breaks down and was loved by the wifey. I want to race in the same class as he races. They are all a bunch of amatures and its a lovely social scene which I can enjoy with my wife
#22
phantom II
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Posted 06 April 2008 - 22:17
I really don't know if I should be helping a guy who wants to build a FWD Ferrari.
There are a number of reputations at stake here, especially yours as the host of this once fine Technical BB. What about the Tifosi, have you thought of them? 
The MR2 is the best way to go for a base chassis. Failing that, I would create a renault R5 type vehicle with one of the FWD shitboxes you have there. Stick a big V6 tranaxle in the back of a Ford Fiesta. Yeah.
Or as suggested before, you can buy the F360 body, but build your own chassis. You will learn a lot. It is not difficult. Just copy some successful ones like these below.
The Lotus Elise chassis looks like the first picture. Just move your Peugeot tansaxle from the front to the back. Get creative when you mount it to the rear bulkhead. Plenty people will help you once you begin. Its all sheet metal. Just bend it to these proportions, after packaging your transaxle, seats, gas tank, radiator, etc. You can stand by while the guy with the machine bends and cuts all the pieces to your drawings made from a full-size cardboard mock up. It won't even take long. Weld the standard shelf extruded pieces and bond the flat pieces with 3M 2216. The front suspension can come from some existing car. Check out the complete 3 series suspension under the Backdraft Cobra. Buy some nice 5 point seats and create an interior. Get your ever loving bride do that to keep her in line. I'm already providing counseling to Fat Boy and McGuire but I draw the limit on marital difficulties. FWD Ferrari? Jees.
A wiring harness is no problem. The transaxle comes with its own harness and computer, supplying power is not rocket science. I don't know of any harness builders there, but Street and Performance and Howells this side of the ocean will make up anything. I don't think they know what a Peugeot is though. What is a Peugeot?
This is the Lotus Elan mentioned somewhere. You have to get creative to mount the body. A bit more difficult but certainly worth looking at.
This chassis is easier than it looks. A bunch of boxes glued together. There is a paper on the first 'Desmo' thread about sandwich boards. You can buy flat 1/2 " balsa wood boards and laminate them in fiberglass with two layers of no.12 weave each side. No matter how you build it it will be strong. ( See ZR 1 thread for balsa wood CF laminate floor boards.)
You can do it in carbon fiber but you will need access to more stuff and it costs more. I stuck a massive outboard motor on my boat on a fiber glass bulkhead.(Stern) It still works after 15 years. If it breaks, just make it thicker. Backyard engineering is back yard R & D also.
This is a round tube space frame that is very stiff and handles a LS3 with ease. The design needs some computerized pipe bending and sequenced welding procedures but you can check your design with any AutoCAD program for stress and strain and placement of xtubes.
This chassis can be checked with a tuning fork and triangulate to at least 70htz. Sheet metal can be used to save weight in strategic locations. That section over the gearbox has the same bending strength as tubes.
There is talk of measuring twist or tosional rigidity. For shits and giggles, you can do it on all 3 chassis for a reference, which ever you choose. If I could, I would use leaf springs like on the Corvette and take loads toward the center of the chassis. (See ZR 1 thread.) I laugh when the aftermarket sells coil/overs to Corvette guys. I would tie 3 corners down and jack it at the hub with a jack mounted on a scale. I would measure deflection at several points. Between the lower A arm mount points and where the spring is loaded. As I said, the closer to the center line of the frame the better. Maybe your next car.
There are a number of reputations at stake here, especially yours as the host of this once fine Technical BB. What about the Tifosi, have you thought of them? The MR2 is the best way to go for a base chassis. Failing that, I would create a renault R5 type vehicle with one of the FWD shitboxes you have there. Stick a big V6 tranaxle in the back of a Ford Fiesta. Yeah.
Or as suggested before, you can buy the F360 body, but build your own chassis. You will learn a lot. It is not difficult. Just copy some successful ones like these below.
The Lotus Elise chassis looks like the first picture. Just move your Peugeot tansaxle from the front to the back. Get creative when you mount it to the rear bulkhead. Plenty people will help you once you begin. Its all sheet metal. Just bend it to these proportions, after packaging your transaxle, seats, gas tank, radiator, etc. You can stand by while the guy with the machine bends and cuts all the pieces to your drawings made from a full-size cardboard mock up. It won't even take long. Weld the standard shelf extruded pieces and bond the flat pieces with 3M 2216. The front suspension can come from some existing car. Check out the complete 3 series suspension under the Backdraft Cobra. Buy some nice 5 point seats and create an interior. Get your ever loving bride do that to keep her in line. I'm already providing counseling to Fat Boy and McGuire but I draw the limit on marital difficulties. FWD Ferrari?
Jees.A wiring harness is no problem. The transaxle comes with its own harness and computer, supplying power is not rocket science. I don't know of any harness builders there, but Street and Performance and Howells this side of the ocean will make up anything. I don't think they know what a Peugeot is though. What is a Peugeot?
This is the Lotus Elan mentioned somewhere. You have to get creative to mount the body. A bit more difficult but certainly worth looking at.
This chassis is easier than it looks. A bunch of boxes glued together. There is a paper on the first 'Desmo' thread about sandwich boards. You can buy flat 1/2 " balsa wood boards and laminate them in fiberglass with two layers of no.12 weave each side. No matter how you build it it will be strong. ( See ZR 1 thread for balsa wood CF laminate floor boards.)
You can do it in carbon fiber but you will need access to more stuff and it costs more. I stuck a massive outboard motor on my boat on a fiber glass bulkhead.(Stern) It still works after 15 years. If it breaks, just make it thicker. Backyard engineering is back yard R & D also.
This is a round tube space frame that is very stiff and handles a LS3 with ease. The design needs some computerized pipe bending and sequenced welding procedures but you can check your design with any AutoCAD program for stress and strain and placement of xtubes.
This chassis can be checked with a tuning fork and triangulate to at least 70htz. Sheet metal can be used to save weight in strategic locations. That section over the gearbox has the same bending strength as tubes.
There is talk of measuring twist or tosional rigidity. For shits and giggles, you can do it on all 3 chassis for a reference, which ever you choose. If I could, I would use leaf springs like on the Corvette and take loads toward the center of the chassis. (See ZR 1 thread.) I laugh when the aftermarket sells coil/overs to Corvette guys. I would tie 3 corners down and jack it at the hub with a jack mounted on a scale. I would measure deflection at several points. Between the lower A arm mount points and where the spring is loaded. As I said, the closer to the center line of the frame the better. Maybe your next car.
Originally posted by Christiaan
Well after deleting the unsavoury posts I will respond to you. Phantom, thank you very much for the input, however I wanted to buy something off the shelf and put it together for myself. I would very much appreciatte your expertise on chassis building because I do want to buy the kit from Extreme (and wouldn't mind a FWD Ferrari) however the cost of the donor car - the 406 Coupe - is too high to justify something I will create for fun, and not as an everyday car. The car will be a "one-off" from an off-the-shelf kit. I hope that clarifies everything.
My Challenge
I want to buy a 360 Kit from Extreme in the UK in the next couple of weeks - soon as I can see what chassis to put it on. The kit will cost me the equivalent of about R70k, but a 406Coupe is upwards of R90k. I have been liasing with the manufacturer of the kit for suitable alternatives.
One solution
Ideally I would like to find a good and cost effective spaceframe. A spaceframe is perfect because then I can have a RWD car and have prepare something I can use purely for weekend fun at Zwaartkops. I had spoken to DAV about supplying a chassis which I would then have to modify to my specs. CAVs car costs almost R600k for the components alone. The chassis is very pricey. Bailey Edwards has a GT40 chassis which retails (before assembly) for just under R70k - so for that I'd rather get a 406. It makes no sense for me to outlay R140k before I even start a build (especially in bullish stock market like here;)) seeing as over the build period I can expect to double or triple that amount.
Today I went to motorbooks looking for chassis construction literature - an even hoping to find chassis plans for sale. It would be even better for me if I could get plans that are done by an expert. I would like to take this thing on the track, so I would want to use a tested design. I couldn't find anything. After hours (and I mean hours) of surfing I didn't come up with much either.
Another Solution
I thought perhaps I could use a chassis from another old car (or truck) and modify it to mount an engine at the back. This would indeed be cheap, and would allow me to a frame build around the chassis to attach all the body parts. The challenge here is that I don't know where to start looking. I know that most trucks available in SA pre 1995 come with the kind of frame with the right amount of strength for carrying an engine in the rear. The Mazda series also seem to have the right wheelbase and can be lowered without upsetting steering geometry. The problem is the rear suspension - which is typically leafspring. Also I would need to find a suitable engine/gearbox combo with a neatly packaged rear diff. I am not all an expert in this area so am still seeking advice
Yet Another Solution
Go for the MR2 conversion. The catalogues make them look uber impressive as they shoot the car from attractive angles. I had a look at one that was on sale on Ebay, and the proportions look soooo wrong. So no - this is not a solution
Final Solution
Start from scratch - an option I have been considering. Building a true one off. Phantom, do you know anybody who I can give drawings to and can create fibreglass panels for me? I imagine it would be impossible to find someone at a reasonable price (ironically in Zimbabwe I had someone do it for me very cheaply - may he rest in peace) with good quality. I found a company in Pretoria who can do it in carbon fibre for about R6000 per square metre. That works out to about R100,000 just for the body work, which I think I'd be willing to pay if I knew that whatever chassis I was putting it on would be bullet proof and I could use the car everyday.
Hummmm
Anyway - as I had said to everybody - Tell me your experiences (if any)
#23
McGuire
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- 9,218 posts
- Joined: October 03
Member
Posted 06 April 2008 - 22:53
From the looks of it, that F360 body kit is not suitable for scratch-building a car around. It's just a set of skins. The inner structure and associated engineering are the difficult parts by far. Glass, shuts, hinges, latches, shuts, weather seals, HVAC... With a kit car or scratchbuilt, when you go for a closed car and all-weather use you increase the difficulty by an order of magnitude, roughly speaking. The benefit of a kit car is these items are worked out or at least reasonably faked.
I suppose if I were in your shoes I would turn the process around 180 degrees: get out a clean sheet of paper and write down the attributes you seek in your homebuilt (including cost!) and identify just why you want to build the car and what you are going to use it for. A program mission statement, in other words. Up-front analysis, as the automakers call it. Then start comparing the various kits and homebuilts and see which cars best hit your target.
The short, boring and totally true answer: If you want to build a car just so you can have built your own car, pick one of the many Lotus 7-type creations, or if you want something a little upmarket from there, a Cobra. There are very good reasons these cars are so wildly popular as kits and homebuilts -- their designs really lend themselves to home construction.
I suppose if I were in your shoes I would turn the process around 180 degrees: get out a clean sheet of paper and write down the attributes you seek in your homebuilt (including cost!) and identify just why you want to build the car and what you are going to use it for. A program mission statement, in other words. Up-front analysis, as the automakers call it. Then start comparing the various kits and homebuilts and see which cars best hit your target.
The short, boring and totally true answer: If you want to build a car just so you can have built your own car, pick one of the many Lotus 7-type creations, or if you want something a little upmarket from there, a Cobra. There are very good reasons these cars are so wildly popular as kits and homebuilts -- their designs really lend themselves to home construction.
#24
phantom II
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Posted 07 April 2008 - 00:01
I have just had my 63 Split window Vette Fuelie restored. The entire one piece body is self supporting. The outer skin is the hardest part to create. The support structure and mount points are a breeze to make. It would be easy on the 1st and 3rd chassis I have drawn. As far as the glass and stuff, I'd find a wrecked car that has a suitable shaped roof and door proportions and place it on my chassis. Maybe even his Peugeot donor will do. The Mitsubishi body on my mid engine Vette chassis was done for that reason. The whole hood of a C4 is one piece with two mount points. Did you see those 2nd gen Trans-Am car bodies?
Or find some one who is painting a 360 and ask him if you can take a quick one layer mould of the roof and pillars. Buy the glass or make it out of plastic.
But you are right about weather proofing and ventilation, that takes some doing. You can't have everything. Well, his wife might want everything, that could be a problem. They don't live in Michigan, you know?
What were you doing when Jim Clark died?
Or find some one who is painting a 360 and ask him if you can take a quick one layer mould of the roof and pillars. Buy the glass or make it out of plastic.
But you are right about weather proofing and ventilation, that takes some doing. You can't have everything. Well, his wife might want everything, that could be a problem. They don't live in Michigan, you know?
What were you doing when Jim Clark died?
Originally posted by McGuire
From the looks of it, that F360 body kit is not suitable for scratch-building a car around. It's just a set of skins. The inner structure and associated engineering are the difficult parts by far. Glass, shuts, hinges, latches, shuts, weather seals, HVAC... With a kit car or scratchbuilt, when you go for a closed car and all-weather use you increase the difficulty by an order of magnitude, roughly speaking. The benefit of a kit car is these items are worked out or at least reasonably faked.
I suppose if I were in your shoes I would turn the process around 180 degrees: get out a clean sheet of paper and write down the attributes you seek in your homebuilt (including cost!) and identify just why you want to build the car and what you are going to use it for. A program mission statement, in other words. Up-front analysis, as the automakers call it. Then start comparing the various kits and homebuilts and see which cars best hit your target.
The short, boring and totally true answer: If you want to build a car just so you can have built your own car, pick one of the many Lotus 7-type creations, or if you want something a little upmarket from there, a Cobra. There are very good reasons these cars are so wildly popular as kits and homebuilts -- their designs really lend themselves to home construction.
#25
Christiaan
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Posted 07 April 2008 - 11:49
Phantom, now ur talking my language. I want to build my own chassis but lack the expertise. It seems though that all of this may have been for nothing - as Damian from Extreme Cars seems to be in hiding. No doubt you sent your hounds on him ;)
McGuire - before Damian disappeared, I was talking to him about doing it with my own frame, and he led me to an American guy was building the Lamborghini Murc on a hotrod frame but intended to put all sorts of support struts on it.
Now, lets move away from this 360 business (I will work it out in time) and lets move back to the OG question. Hands up those who own or have built, or are building a kit car?
McGuire - before Damian disappeared, I was talking to him about doing it with my own frame, and he led me to an American guy was building the Lamborghini Murc on a hotrod frame but intended to put all sorts of support struts on it.
Now, lets move away from this 360 business (I will work it out in time) and lets move back to the OG question. Hands up those who own or have built, or are building a kit car?
#26
phantom II
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Posted 07 April 2008 - 23:51
The biggest problem in wiring is to get the OEM plugs and connectors. What type of rear lamps and side turn signal and headlamps are you using? Here they require DOT markings and placements, therefore OEM units. You will have to get OEM plugs. I've got Ford rear lamps so I got a loom from the junk yard but I don't know what I'd do for production. You may want to visit a trade show. What wiper washer system do you use? A production harness is done on a color coordinated table with little pictures of the plugs painted on it and little clamps to hold down the wires. If you use all GM parts, like, steering column, instrument panel, gearbox, engine, then Street and Performance can make a really nice harness with clear labels and mounting tabs, with all GM part number plugs, which you can't buy at the dealer. Under the dash are no wires, just tapes. It includes ECM wiring and plugs and one plug to the IP which works everything from OBD3 and the gas gauge. The engine warning light, tach, Tech II and PC cluster plug in, fuse box, etc. One plug into the steering column will work: turn signals,cruise control, wiper/washer ignition switch, starter, flashers, horn,lights, high and low beam. The whole steering column with tilt costs $400 bucks. You will never be able to make it for that let alone wire it. OEM in some cases may be more expensive but may save a bundle in labor.
Separate instruments like in Cobras are labor intensive and for old school types.
Buy a really good fuse box and run wires to all the usual stuff. Careful the quality of the wires because cheap ones will corrode. Spare no bucks on wiring, because rewiring is a real pain.
Separate instruments like in Cobras are labor intensive and for old school types.
Buy a really good fuse box and run wires to all the usual stuff. Careful the quality of the wires because cheap ones will corrode. Spare no bucks on wiring, because rewiring is a real pain.
Originally posted by cheapracer
Phantom 11, fantastic stuff and hits right to home for me as I am now about at 60% stage for my PRODUCTION car.
This is my first production car prototype and the differences between it and building just a one off, racing cars or specials of which I have built or been involved in, are astounding.
Needless to say I am over time and budget, lol! (in between the tears!).
Using the Eclipse body is the sort of thing I am doing, not quite so elaborate but on the same theme and the big tip for anyone contemplating even a one off is to find a source car first. or example, if you want to build a mid engined car look for wiring looms and electrics from small carry vans because they are in the right place and wiring looms are important things.
Its 90% thinking about planning, the layout and sourcing, the rest is just manual labour and a lot of running around.
#27
NRoshier
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#28
phantom II
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Posted 08 April 2008 - 12:15
www.sportscarfactory.com These people build a Jag XJR 13 on a chassis built by Fran Hall at Race Car Replicas who use it for their own 917, Ferrari P4 and Lola
www.race-car-replicas.com It is like the Lotus Elise chassis and you just can do better than this.
www.race-car-replicas.com It is like the Lotus Elise chassis and you just can do better than this.
#29
Christiaan
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#30
McGuire
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Posted 09 April 2008 - 00:26
Originally posted by phantom II
If you use all GM parts, like, steering column, instrument panel, gearbox, engine, then Street and Performance can make a really nice harness with clear labels and mounting tabs, with all GM part number plugs, which you can't buy at the dealer.
You can order any part for any GM car that is still in production, from a bare frame to a lock washer, at your local GM dealer. (It's the law, sort of.) The trick is in knowing what you are doing, or getting a counter person who knows what he/she is doing.
For example, all the connectors, terminals, weather seals, and retainers (and special crimpers) for GM wiring harnesses are available through GMSPO or Delphi (formerly Packard Wire). And the wire too, in any gauge and color they make. When you go to the dealer parts counter ask to see the Packard or Delphi electrical catalog. If he doesn't know what you are talking about you drew a rookie counterman.
#31
phantom II
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Posted 09 April 2008 - 00:37
Wrong. Been there done that. They will sell the whole harness, but not one single empty plug for say a Pontiac GTO fuel pump or Instrument cluster plug, etc. You can get most of the engine plugs, such as air and IC, etc,but try the wiper moter. I got the best counter, hot rod constructor, guy in the world.
Originally posted by McGuire
You can order any part for any GM car that is still in production, from a bare frame to a lock washer, at your local GM dealer. (It's the law, sort of.) The trick is in knowing what you are doing, or getting a counter person who knows what he/she is doing.
For example, all the connectors, terminals, weather seals, and retainers (and special crimpers) for GM wiring harnesses are available through GMSPO or Delphi (formerly Packard Wire). And the wire too, in any gauge and color they make. When you go to the dealer parts counter ask to see the Packard or Delphi electrical catalog. If he doesn't know what you are talking about you drew a rookie counterman.
#32
McGuire
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Posted 09 April 2008 - 02:18
Originally posted by phantom II
Wrong. Been there done that. They will sell the whole harness, but not one single empty plug for say a Pontiac GTO fuel pump or Instrument cluster plug, etc. You can get most of the engine plugs, such as air and IC, etc,but try the wiper moter. I got the best counter, hot rod constructor, guy in the world.
Go here
http://www.ttiinc.co...way_delphi.html
see the link at the upper right that says "Global Connection System Catalog"? Click on it and download. It will take a bit. It's a big catalog, 400 pages.
When you find your connector or terminal note the part number, print out the page with the illustration and pin map and take it to your GM dealer and order the part. Some Delphi numbers are also GM part numbers but some are not. If it doesn't cross and ID in the dealer parts system, give them the number and catalog page and ask for a "special processing request order."
You're welcome.
#33
phantom II
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Posted 09 April 2008 - 12:11
Thanks, I'll check it out. Sorry I was so flippant. Its much easier for Howells or Street and Performance to do it though.Their work is so beautiful. I don't enjoy wiring, but it is quite amazing to see things come to life. Its like being Frankenstein. The neatest thing is to make your own gas gauge sender unit and place it in your own gas tank and watch it work while you add gas. This is happiness but all the events leading up to that moment are not.
Originally posted by McGuire
Go here
http://www.ttiinc.co...way_delphi.html
see the link at the upper right that says "Global Connection System Catalog"? Click on it and download. It will take a bit. It's a big catalog, 400 pages.
When you find your connector or terminal note the part number, print out the page with the illustration and pin map and take it to your GM dealer and order the part. Some Delphi numbers are also GM part numbers but some are not. If it doesn't cross and ID in the dealer parts system, give them the number and catalog page and ask for a "special processing request order."
You're welcome.
#34
cheapracer
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Posted 10 April 2008 - 06:20
Originally posted by phantom II
I don't enjoy wiring, but it is quite amazing to see things come to life. Its like being Frankenstein. The neatest thing is to make your own gas gauge sender unit and place it in your own gas tank and watch it work while you add gas. This is happiness but all the events leading up to that moment are not.
Thats why the right donor vehicle is important. Time spent there will save you 10 fold later. I just cut out the sender area out of the donor tank, add it to my new tank buck, send it off to the 'glasser and presto, no sender or wiring hassles.
The great thing about van wiring harnesses is that they start (or end?) at the steering column/instruments, go down and forward then under the floor back to the engine, gearbox, tank etc. leaving ample length for many projects and very suitable for mid engine projects. Also the van harnesses aren't as complicated as many cars are.
Christaan, stay away from the "lightweight" locost kit cars if you value your legs/life. Usually folded aluminium you can't believe how thin/weak/dangerous they are in the event of a prang. Theres also a 'locost' webring as well, Google it.
White Pointer Fibreglass in Australia has an alternative older style Italian sports car body for a Locost, http://www.whitepoin...m.au/bella.html looks better in real life than the pictures.
#35
robroy
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Posted 13 April 2008 - 12:33
Originally posted by Christiaan
Now, lets move away from this 360 business (I will work it out in time) and lets move back to the OG question. Hands up those who own or have built, or are building a kit car?
Me me me!
Here's my last Westfield, the most reliable car I've ever owned or built. 8,000 hard charging miles in two years and didn't break down once. I prefer to have as little trim as possible and certainly no chrome:
For more of a challenge I'm building this now. This is the panelled space frame chassis originally designed for a bike engine and chain drive:
I've had to make my own mounts, hydraulic clutch, gearchange mechanism, ducted cooling system, dry sump system, brackets, pedals etc. All work well except for the pedals that need a redesign. I've also just taught myself how (not) to paint and can't drive it at the moment as I'm tyring to fit some Kawasaki ZX6 throttle bodies with a megasquirt ecu to the old Lancia engine. The good (or bad) thing about kit or home made cars is that they can always have something else done to them if the need arises. You can also learn what you want when you want.
Another positive thing about kit cars is supporting small local and family run businesses instead of the man. A good thing if you think big business is baaaa baaa baaad like me.
My next project will be all mine except suspension and hubs, with my own spaceframe chassis. At least it was until I read about sandwich boards - thanks phantom II.
There must be more people here with kit cars or home made cars? Perhaps everyone's too busy building real racing cars?
#36
Greg Locock
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Posted 13 April 2008 - 15:04
" A good thing if you think big business is baaaa baaa baaad like me."
Yeah, mom and pop Kawasaki (and their 29000 little helpers) turn out a nice little handcrafted engine don't they. K's turnover last year was 15 billion dollars. You really are sticking it to the man aren't you?
Sounds like a fun project, have you got any photos with the bodywork off.
Yeah, mom and pop Kawasaki (and their 29000 little helpers) turn out a nice little handcrafted engine don't they. K's turnover last year was 15 billion dollars. You really are sticking it to the man aren't you?
Sounds like a fun project, have you got any photos with the bodywork off.
#37
McGuire
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Posted 13 April 2008 - 15:50
Originally posted by Christiaan
Hands up those who own or have built, or are building a kit car?
Separating this from professional projects (which operate at a totally different level that is not close to relevant here) I have done two Cobras along with the usual hot rods, race cars etc. Home garage building is a lot of fun and very satisfying if you have the time.
In the way of tips.... first time out, the home-builder is often tempted to build his car once. Big mistake -- never build a car once. All high-end pro-built cars are built at least twice. What I mean: from the start of the project you must take the approach that when you are all done, you are then going to blow the car completely apart again so you can paint, detail, finish, and refine everything. Then you perform the final assembly.
There are several advantages to this approach beyond avoiding the usual assembly scratches etc: First it will encourage patience: no sense cutting corners and throwing things together if you know it is coming right back apart again anyway. Next, you will give a lot more thought to how things fit together, their means of attachment etc, order and reason to everything. You want that final assembly to go smooth as butter, a simple bolt-together job, right? If it does, that means you did a proper job first time around.
The result is a much better engineered car overall, and one that will hold up longer, be far more suitable to repairs and modifications, and be a lot more fun to work on and to look at. I have seen a lot of homebuilts and the once-built cars are usually easy to spot.
#38
robroy
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Posted 13 April 2008 - 18:52
Originally posted by Greg Locock
" A good thing if you think big business is baaaa baaa baaad like me."
Yeah, mom and pop Kawasaki (and their 29000 little helpers) turn out a nice little handcrafted engine don't they. K's turnover last year was 15 billion dollars. You really are sticking it to the man aren't you?
Sounds like a fun project, have you got any photos with the bodywork off.
I don't really think all big business is bad. I do prefer to use smaller companies when I shop though. I know its not much, but every bit helps. Most of my money went to a friendly chap near Leeds who runs a small kit car building company. The used Kawasaki throttle bodies were £80 from a crashed bike scrapyard on e-bay and are going on my Lancia engine. Both companies I'd be happy to fund anyway because I appreciate their engineering.
Here are a few pics from various times, with bits incomplete....
Please don't mention polished engineering! (I had to replace my suspension bolts with longer ones for the SVA test inspector so that at least two threads went through the nyloc)
#39
robroy
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Posted 13 April 2008 - 19:21
Originally posted by McGuire
Separating this from professional projects (which operate at a totally different level that is not close to relevant here) I have done two Cobras along with the usual hot rods, race cars etc. Home garage building is a lot of fun and very satisfying if you have the time.
In the way of tips.... first time out, the home-builder is often tempted to build his car once. Big mistake -- never build a car once. All high-end pro-built cars are built at least twice. What I mean: from the start of the project you must take the approach that when you are all done, you are then going to blow the car completely apart again so you can paint, detail, finish, and refine everything. Then you perform the final assembly.
There are several advantages to this approach beyond avoiding the usual assembly scratches etc: First it will encourage patience: no sense cutting corners and throwing things together if you know it is coming right back apart again anyway. Next, you will give a lot more thought to how things fit together, their means of attachment etc, order and reason to everything. You want that final assembly to go smooth as butter, a simple bolt-together job, right? If it does, that means you did a proper job first time around.
The result is a much better engineered car overall, and one that will hold up longer, be far more suitable to repairs and modifications, and be a lot more fun to work on and to look at. I have seen a lot of homebuilts and the once-built cars are usually easy to spot.
Good advice that I've taken a lot of time to learn!
I agree that even the best home made cars are a world away from professional race car builds. The standard of build and quality of the race cars and parts at a recent autosport show was pretty inspiring.
You can normally tell who the real engineers at kit car shows are within seconds of looking at their engine bays. Seeing these normally push me on to try and raise my rather easy going standards.
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#40
Christiaan
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 22:59
gr8 advise McGuire
#41
se7en_24
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Posted 14 April 2008 - 23:20
If they are so irrelevant then why mention them other than to make your e-penis a bit bigger?Originally posted by McGuire
Separating this from professional projects (which operate at a totally different level that is not close to relevant here)
#42
phantom II
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 00:25
Most kits these days are a one time build. It is all painted and everything. Depends on your own personnel work ethic and pride if it turns out looking like a pile of S.H.one T.
A scratch built car is impossible to build one time unless you want a hack job. I drove my hack job around for a couple of years. Some shops specialize in concepts for the big boys but they use pretty sophisticated computers to make it possible to do it once. To build your own body will require 3 or four moulds or at least 3 modifications to the original moulds and much chassis hacking until you get the design right. So two chassis and 3 bodies should do it but only the hack job is fun to make.
A few of my friends have built kit airplanes where just about everything had to be made. They were built better than professionals could do. Professional means nothing.
I was at Sun n Fun for the EAA Southern convention last week and prizes are given to best home built planes. Chip Foose would be worried.
A scratch built car is impossible to build one time unless you want a hack job. I drove my hack job around for a couple of years. Some shops specialize in concepts for the big boys but they use pretty sophisticated computers to make it possible to do it once. To build your own body will require 3 or four moulds or at least 3 modifications to the original moulds and much chassis hacking until you get the design right. So two chassis and 3 bodies should do it but only the hack job is fun to make.
A few of my friends have built kit airplanes where just about everything had to be made. They were built better than professionals could do. Professional means nothing.
I was at Sun n Fun for the EAA Southern convention last week and prizes are given to best home built planes. Chip Foose would be worried.
Originally posted by se7en_24
If they are so irrelevant then why mention them other than to make your e-penis a bit bigger?
#43
Canuck
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 01:29
I made it a habit to see what the other bike builders were up to when I was in business. It gave me no end of amusement to see parts with still-wet clear coat being assembled to something for the very first time, only to discover their super-wazoo fresh-from-the-chromer's air cleaner rubbed against the bottom of the gas tank. Never mind the outfit that publicly admitted to using hydraulic tubing for frames because "it's so much easier to bend". 
Somewhere I have a picture of one of those frames (in chrome of course) with the forks, front wheel, fender and frame neck laying in the dirt having only the brake and throttle cable connecting it to the rest of the frame. Their reasoning was the owner, while turning around in a residential alley, hit a retaining wall head-on, thereby justifying shearing the front end clean off. To his credit, he's in business and I'm not.
Somewhere I have a picture of one of those frames (in chrome of course) with the forks, front wheel, fender and frame neck laying in the dirt having only the brake and throttle cable connecting it to the rest of the frame. Their reasoning was the owner, while turning around in a residential alley, hit a retaining wall head-on, thereby justifying shearing the front end clean off. To his credit, he's in business and I'm not.
#44
McGuire
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Posted 15 April 2008 - 06:57
Originally posted by phantom II
A few of my friends have built kit airplanes where just about everything had to be made. They were built better than professionals could do. Professional means nothing.
Depends what you mean by professional. If we are talking about cars, yes and no. How many home-builders can injection-mold a full-width tail lamp assembly? Or form safety glass? CNC a set of eight control arms or a full-sized clay straight from a math file? Fabricate a working LCD panel? Here in the Detroit area, the world I live in, there are a dozen shops that really can build whole cars from scratch. Any car, and they can do the whole thing in four to ten weeks. They build the concept cars and prototypes for the OEs, among other things.
So when we are talking about kit cars, homebuilts, and similar projects we are talking about a completely different level of difficulty -- a considerably lower one, with all due respect. First we are building cars that deliberately avoid complexities: Cobras, Lotus 7s, stuff along those lines. And we are going to borrow as many existing parts from production cars as we can. We can obtain a very high level of fit and finish with this approach, and a very satisfying final result, but we are not really competing with the true professionals. In homebuilts a good design avoids all the difficult construction issues.
#45
robroy
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Posted 18 April 2008 - 18:36
Originally posted by phantom II
This chassis is easier than it looks. A bunch of boxes glued together. There is a paper on the first 'Desmo' thread about sandwich boards. You can buy flat 1/2 " balsa wood boards and laminate them in fiberglass with two layers of no.12 weave each side. No matter how you build it it will be strong. ( See ZR 1 thread for balsa wood CF laminate floor boards.)
You can do it in carbon fiber but you will need access to more stuff and it costs more. I stuck a massive outboard motor on my boat on a fiber glass bulkhead.(Stern) It still works after 15 years. If it breaks, just make it thicker. Backyard engineering is back yard R & D also.
Excuse me phantom II, or anyone else. Do you know of any good websites on this type of chassis construction using fibreglass?
I've read the interesting paper, and checked the web and only found limited information on boat sites, and my McBeath composites book only mentions the subject.
#46
Greg Locock
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Posted 18 April 2008 - 21:25
I'd go and talk to a boat builder. "My" quarter tonner is 28 years old and was made by this method.
Just recently we had a huge gale in the boatyard and a bunch of other boats on trolleys which were not properly secured were blown along into it. The steel trolleys punched holes in the hull about the size of my fist, but the hull form itself is OK.
Just recently we had a huge gale in the boatyard and a bunch of other boats on trolleys which were not properly secured were blown along into it. The steel trolleys punched holes in the hull about the size of my fist, but the hull form itself is OK.
#47
ray b
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Posted 19 April 2008 - 03:05
I donot like end grain balsa for a long lasting F/G core
IT ROTS at least in boats esp on deck cores
Airex or Kleg cell foam cores doNOT rot
while the foam cores can cost more
I think they are a better long term core
IT ROTS at least in boats esp on deck cores
Airex or Kleg cell foam cores doNOT rot
while the foam cores can cost more
I think they are a better long term core
#48
Greg Locock
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Posted 20 April 2008 - 00:39
Good point about the rotting, but we did replace the deck 4 years ago, the core was some blue foam, and it was in a very sorry state. Admittedly the deck gets a lot of abuse, and this boat was built on Chapmanesque lines.
I replaced it with an elaborate egg crate design design made from plywood, which was scarcely any heavier and an awful lot stiffer (3 times by my estimate), albeit at the cost of being much deeper, although that space under the deck is of no use anyway.
The balsa cores haven't rotted yet, but I should add that the boat is only in the water when we are racing, the rest of the time it is on a stand.
I replaced it with an elaborate egg crate design design made from plywood, which was scarcely any heavier and an awful lot stiffer (3 times by my estimate), albeit at the cost of being much deeper, although that space under the deck is of no use anyway.
The balsa cores haven't rotted yet, but I should add that the boat is only in the water when we are racing, the rest of the time it is on a stand.
#49
cheapracer
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Posted 20 April 2008 - 10:36
Greg - possible to give some more info on your rgg crate design? What filled the airspace? rough dimensions, weight carried?
Thanks :-)
Thanks :-)
#50
robroy
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Posted 20 April 2008 - 11:33
Thanks Greg and Ray.
I live near the Essex coast and a few boatyards so may take a trip there soon and find someone friendly for construction and core advice.
With regards your damage, do you simply cut a square out and bond in replacement core and reglass the damaged zone?
Out of interest do you have any experience of the Chapman boats. What were they like compared to the competition of the time?
I live near the Essex coast and a few boatyards so may take a trip there soon and find someone friendly for construction and core advice.
With regards your damage, do you simply cut a square out and bond in replacement core and reglass the damaged zone?
Out of interest do you have any experience of the Chapman boats. What were they like compared to the competition of the time?
