139 replies to this topic

[Most Fastest]

Often haralded by the press as the greatest designer in the last 25 years (IMO that title is fullt deserved by South African R. Byrne, who won titles with two teams like Newey, but one of them being a smaller new comer to F1, Bennetton, in addition to just building more winning cars...that simple), it was believed that McLaren's fortune almost entirely rested in his hands.

Yet, Kimi never won a title with his cars and Montoya's career was cut short. Finally, Red Bull succeeded where Jaguar failed (ironically, it is the same team....) and Newey moved on to Red Bull.

Now, Red Bull did in fact improve since newey arrived, but it is hard to understand how much it's the result of Newey's designs and how much is the river of cash from Red Bull, which allowed to improve EVERY area of the team. In addition, the cars seem to suffer, at least last season, a full Newey design, from the same cronic unreliability which had caused Kimi so much heartbreak.

On the other hand, it was also believed McLaren would suffer terribly and possibly go the way of Williams once they lost Newey. Instead, the McLarens not only stayed in front, but finally overcome Newey's cars cronic fragility and became last year the most reliable car of the entire F1 grid, better than almighty Ferrari.

So, my question to all of you.....is this just a coincidence or is Newey in fact overrated and there are, given the same resources, several designers in F1 capable of proudcing just as good F1 cars as he is? is he the best designer in F1 in the past 25 years or is he the most hyped designer in F1 in the past 25 years?

[WOOT]

he's overrated. he's cars are fast but too fragile. he sees no compromise.

[Imperial]

He was the perfect genius in the era when a man of his genius could create championship winning cars.

That was drawing to a close a decade ago however. It's a different era now.

Ten years is a very very long time in motorsport design. I think it's simply a matter of it being a different era now and Adrian's designs just don't work as good as other designers'.

[Fatgadget]

Specific ingridients have to be in place for a delicious meal. By this I mean.. Newey,Herd,Williams,Mansell-1980s.
Byrne,Brawn,Todt.Schumacher.Stepny,Ferrari early 2000s .All of those mentioned in another combination ..Forget it.
Look what happened to John Banard or Harvey Postelworth and now Adrian Newy.Same as what will happen to Ross Brawn.

Excellent thread BTW

[Melbourne Park]

Pre wind tunnel, I reckon he was the best. Now its more a polishing exercise - although BMW are showing that CFD can push the envelope even further into aero add ons.

[shaggy]

Originally posted by Most Fastest
Often haralded by the press as the greatest designer in the last 25 years ..... it was believed that McLaren's fortune almost entirely rested in his hands.

.... In addition, the cars seem to suffer, at least last season, a full Newey design, from the same cronic unreliability which had caused Kimi so much heartbreak.

... it was also believed McLaren would suffer terribly .... but finally overcome Newey's cars cronic fragility

there are, given the same resources, several designers in F1 capable of proudcing just as good F1 cars as he is?

Thee are a lot of sentences in your post that should be prefixed with an IMO.
The good things about Newey, you attribute to cash. The bad things you attribute to his design. You appear to discount the contribution and knowledge he left behind at MC. You appear to diminish what his departure caused Williams.

Now, just because he may be regarded as the best, it does not mean that the others are not at his same level. "First among equals."
MC certainly regard him quite high since they did everything possible to keep him there. Maybe MC knows something ;)

shaggy

[Most Fastest]

Originally posted by shaggy


Thee are a lot of sentences in your post that should be prefixed with an IMO.
The good things about Newey, you attribute to cash. The bad things you attribute to his design. You appear to discount the contribution and knowledge he left behind at MC. You appear to diminish what his departure caused Williams.

Now, just because he may be regarded as the best, it does not mean that the others are not at his same level. "First among equals."
MC certainly regard him quite high since they did everything possible to keep him there. Maybe MC knows something ;)

shaggy

No, no, no, don't change what i said please, you are entirely making up your own version of it.

"it is hard to understand how much it's the result of Newey's designs and how much is the river of cash". What part of "hard to understand" you don't understand? it could be newey, it could be the cash, it could be both. THAT is the real meaning. Interestingly, you changed it entirely.

"You appear to diminish what his departure caused Williams." No I didn't at all. I actually spent an entire sentence to stress EXACTLY that point: "it was also believed McLaren would suffer terribly and possibly go the way of Williams once they lost Newey".

Next time before attacking one of my posts, you might do me the favor of reading it first.

[PassWind]

Whatever floats ya boat, he ain't too bad for a overrated car designer apparently and I am so looking forward to your RB5.

[Most Fastest]

My RB5? I don't design cars and if i had to order one, I would call Rory

[PassWind]

Originally posted by Most Fastest
Often haralded by the press as the greatest designer in the last 25 years (IMO that title is fullt deserved by South African R. Byrne, who won titles with two teams like Newey, but one of them being a smaller new comer to F1, Bennetton, in addition to just building more winning cars...that simple), it was believed that McLaren's fortune almost entirely rested in his hands.

If this is your supposition can you provide links to the exact Media statements that claim Newey as the greatest in the last 25 years or is this just your summation based on the want to amplify a point that is not well supported?

Yet, Kimi never won a title with his cars and Montoya's career was cut short. Finally, Red Bull succeeded where Jaguar failed (ironically, it is the same team....) and Newey moved on to Red Bull.

Kimi didn't win a Title in any other car before he went to Ferrari, so what is the relevance of Kimi to the equation, a crystal ball assumption he was going to win if he drove a car designed by anyone other than Newey?

Now, Red Bull did in fact improve since newey arrived, but it is hard to understand how much it's the result of Newey's designs and how much is the river of cash from Red Bull, which allowed to improve EVERY area of the team. In addition, the cars seem to suffer, at least last season, a full Newey design, from the same cronic unreliability which had caused Kimi so much heartbreak.

On the other hand, it was also believed McLaren would suffer terribly and possibly go the way of Williams once they lost Newey. Instead, the McLarens not only stayed in front, but finally overcome Newey's cars cronic fragility and became last year the most reliable car of the entire F1 grid, better than almighty Ferrari.

Would you consider resorting to cheating, stealing another manufacturers design in order to get a clue and being disqualified from the WCC with a 100 million Dollar fine as a raging success?

So, my question to all of you.....is this just a coincidence or is Newey in fact overrated and there are, given the same resources, several designers in F1 capable of proudcing just as good F1 cars as he is? is he the best designer in F1 in the past 25 years or is he the most hyped designer in F1 in the past 25 years?

In answer to your question its just a coincidence that you came to this conclusion to support an opinion you may have and as I don't believe you are a peer, car designer or a person with subject matter expertise to provide any sort of technical appraisal. In addition you have reached a conclusion to support a pre-determined position you have, you haven't provided notes, and I doubt you would be able to produce the technical analysis of each of the McLaren failures that squarely blame Newey's design philosophy as the culprit.

[Atreiu]

Maybe the new aero rules for 2009 might bring things closer to what he likes, and then he'll be a genius all over again. I don't think he's overhyped, it took Schumacher + Ross + Todt + Byrne + full Bridgestone commitment + etc to beat him, and that came only half a decade of the tightest and most dedicated partnership ever.

[Most Fastest]

Originally posted by PassWind


If this is your supposition can you provide links to the exact Media statements that claim Newey as the greatest in the last 25 years or is this just your summation based on the want to amplify a point that is not well supported?






Kimi didn't win a Title in any other car before he went to Ferrari, so what is the relevance of Kimi to the equation, a crystal ball assumption he was going to win if he drove a car designed by anyone other than Newey?






Would you consider resorting to cheating, stealing another manufacturers design in order to get a clue and being disqualified from the WCC with a 100 million Dollar fine as a raging success?






In answer to your question its just a coincidence that you came to this conclusion to support an opinion you may have and as I don't believe you are a peer, car designer or a person with subject matter expertise to provide any sort of technical appraisal. In addition you have reached a conclusion to support a pre-determined position you have, you haven't provided notes, and I doubt you would be able to produce the technical analysis of each of the McLaren failures that squarely blame Newey's design philosophy as the culprit.

Are you always this angry?

[Ferrim]

Originally posted by Atreiu
Maybe the new aero rules for 2009 might bring things closer to what he likes, and then he'll be a genius all over again. I don't think he's overhyped, it took Schumacher + Ross + Todt + Byrne + full Bridgestone commitment + etc to beat the combined efforts of the whole Williams team, and then of the whole McLaren team, which included him, and that came only half a decade of the tightest and most dedicated partnership ever.

Fixed.

[Most Fastest]

Now, after having addressed your ridiculous and uncalled for dose of aggression, let's address the points that made you, oh, so indignant!!!!

ok, breath, exhale, breath.....exhale. OOOOMMMM...OOOMMM, relax, relax, it's just F1, nobody slept with your girlfriend, relax......

here we go:
"If this is your supposition can you provide links to the exact Media statements that claim Newey as the greatest in the last 25 years blah, blah, blah, or you amplify blah, blah, blah????"

Adrian Newey - Simply The best
http://www.grandprix...ft/ft00339.html

Newey stays with mcLaren - 3rd paragraph "a man regarded as the best designer in the sport"
http://www.grandprix...ns/ns04342.html

Newey says 'No' to Ferrari - 2nd paragraph "40-year old Newey is commonly regarded as the best designer in his field"
http://www.ferrariow...999/110599.html

Newey 'more important than Schumi' - "top Formula 1 designer Adrian Newey will be joining the team"; ""Given the choice of Adrian Newey or Michael Schumacher, I'd go for Adrian every time,"
http://motoring.iafr...aone/532064.htm

Took about 2 minutes to find these, I can go on and on and on. Enough evidence of the media saying exactly what I said they were saying??????????? now relax, breath, exhale, relax, breath, exhale.

"Kimi didn't win a Title in any other car before he went to Ferrari, so what is the relevance of Kimi to the equation"

Yeah, before he drove a Sauber and NO driver ever won with a Sauber. The relevance of Kimi was that he was NOT the weak link, as soon as he got a car that could finish more often than not, the famed 'car breaker' became the 2007 WDC...... that's all. If you would chill instead of getting a nervous breakdown, you would have understood this elementary point.

"Would you consider resorting to cheating, stealing another manufacturers design in order to get a clue and being disqualified from the WCC with a 100 million Dollar fine as a raging success?"

Did I say that cheating was a success? why do you have to turn your aggression into an extrapolation of bullshit I didn't mean and didn't even refer to??? I wasn't discussing the morals of the 2007 season, McLaren got what they deserved, they cheated and their points were taken away (despite lunatics like RicardoF1 who believe McLaren is the 2007 WCC winner...self explanatory, really). But that wasn't my point at all. The 2007 car was already designed by the time McLaren started utilizing Ferrari intelligence. Sure, their performance suddenly improved in Malaysia and they improved, after switching tires, faster than any other team and now we know why, because yes, like you say, they cheated. But that doesn't change the fact the car was BOTH fast and reliable. Sure, it would have taken them another 3-4 months to sort it all out without Ferrari info and by then the season would have been lost (get it, RicardoF1???), but the fact remains the car without Newey was both FAST and RELIABLE. So, in THAT respect, yes, 2007 was a SMASHING sucess, too bad their corrupt behavior wasted this accomplishment.

Regarding the last delirating point or series of, since you go off in way too many tangents of anger to follow you, regarding me not being a designer or engineer with F1 experience.....that is why I asked the forum for theor OPINION rather than giving any conclusion, I left both possibilities open, and just as I don't have F1 experience to say whether Newey is hyped, similarly you don't have F1 experience to say the opposite.

Now, breath, inhale, exhale.......

[KWSN - DSM]

I have no doubt that Newey is a very talented designer, but I think that his obsession with 'packaging' is what have made his more resent designs 'fragile', he appear to refuse to accept that the tolerances are overstepped too often with his designs, and being of the stature he is, there is no one to reign him in.

He has made some designs which are innovative, ground breaking, but not as many championships as he should have.

If Red Bull had someone in place, who could hold him just a little of his 'packaging' Red Bull would be better of, the car this season seem at least as good as Renault, so next season when they are also piloted with higher talent drivers, they will make yet another step forward.

I am just not sure that there is any person, whom Newey would accept as being one to hold him back.

Nothing came of it, but it is symptomatic that it was Red Bull who was questioned in regard their front end not being strong enough, it may be exactly as what Red Bull explained 'human error', still was a Newey design it happened to.

It is also true that a great designer, need the full package if you have Brawn, Todt and Schumacher for 10 seasons, then you better win some races. But I am with Byrne as the better designer the past 20 seasons.

[Crazy Canuck]

Great aerodynamisist but a TERRIBLE car designer. It seems that he needs to be balanced by an engineer who is strong on the mechanical side of design. When ever he has designed a car by himself it's been too radical, too unreliable.

CC

[sopa]

I agree that Newey is overrated.

Let's put it this way. Nobody praises Aldo Costa for constructing a good car. Nobody has praised Willy Rampf for constructing a good car. But their cars are fighting for top positions! Why no-one ever mentiones them? : Oh and I guess many people even don't know, who is McLaren's current chief desinger.

On the contrary, if Newey's car gets into the points, he is praised as the biggest designer genius on Earth and gets the whole accolade of success.

This is a rude unjustice.

[Most Fastest]

Originally posted by sopa
I agree that Newey is overrated.

Let's put it this way. Nobody praises Aldo Costa for constructing a good car. Nobody has praised Willy Rampf for constructing a good car. But their cars are fighting for top positions! Why no-one ever mentiones them? : Oh and I guess many people even don't know, who is McLaren's current chief desinger.

On the contrary, if Newey's car gets into the points, he is praised as the biggest designer genius on Earth and gets the whole accolade of success.

This is a rude unjustice.

Carefull, PassWind might get pissed off for your statements and ask you for a list of links to verify your statements......

[PassWind]

Originally posted by Most Fastest
Now, after having addressed your ridiculous and uncalled for dose of aggression, let's address the points that made you, oh, so indignant!!!!

ok, breath, exhale, breath.....exhale. OOOOMMMM...OOOMMM, relax, relax, it's just F1, nobody slept with your girlfriend, relax......

here we go:
"If this is your supposition can you provide links to the exact Media statements that claim Newey as the greatest in the last 25 years blah, blah, blah, or you amplify blah, blah, blah????"

Adrian Newey - Simply The best
http://www.grandprix...ft/ft00339.html

Newey stays with mcLaren - 3rd paragraph "a man regarded as the best designer in the sport"
http://www.grandprix...ns/ns04342.html

Newey says 'No' to Ferrari - 2nd paragraph "40-year old Newey is commonly regarded as the best designer in his field"
http://www.ferrariow...999/110599.html

Newey 'more important than Schumi' - "top Formula 1 designer Adrian Newey will be joining the team"; ""Given the choice of Adrian Newey or Michael Schumacher, I'd go for Adrian every time,"
http://motoring.iafr...aone/532064.htm

Took about 2 minutes to find these, I can go on and on and on. Enough evidence of the media saying exactly what I said they were saying??????????? now relax, breath, exhale, relax, breath, exhale.

"Kimi didn't win a Title in any other car before he went to Ferrari, so what is the relevance of Kimi to the equation"

Yeah, before he drove a Sauber and NO driver ever won with a Sauber. The relevance of Kimi was that he was NOT the weak link, as soon as he got a car that could finish more often than not, the famed 'car breaker' became the 2007 WDC...... that's all. If you would chill instead of getting a nervous breakdown, you would have understood this elementary point.

"Would you consider resorting to cheating, stealing another manufacturers design in order to get a clue and being disqualified from the WCC with a 100 million Dollar fine as a raging success?"

Did I say that cheating was a success? why do you have to turn your aggression into an extrapolation of bullshit I didn't mean and didn't even refer to??? I wasn't discussing the morals of the 2007 season, McLaren got what they deserved, they cheated and their points were taken away (despite lunatics like RicardoF1 who believe McLaren is the 2007 WCC winner...self explanatory, really). But that wasn't my point at all. The 2007 car was already designed by the time McLaren started utilizing Ferrari intelligence. Sure, their performance suddenly improved in Malaysia and they improved, after switching tires, faster than any other team and now we know why, because yes, like you say, they cheated. But that doesn't change the fact the car was BOTH fast and reliable. Sure, it would have taken them another 3-4 months to sort it all out without Ferrari info and by then the season would have been lost (get it, RicardoF1???), but the fact remains the car without Newey was both FAST and RELIABLE. So, in THAT respect, yes, 2007 was a SMASHING sucess, too bad their corrupt behavior wasted this accomplishment.

Regarding the last delirating point or series of, since you go off in way too many tangents of anger to follow you, regarding me not being a designer or engineer with F1 experience.....that is why I asked the forum for theor OPINION rather than giving any conclusion, I left both possibilities open, and just as I don't have F1 experience to say whether Newey is hyped, similarly you don't have F1 experience to say the opposite.

Now, breath, inhale, exhale.......

Not one of your news articles says that Newey is the best F1 designer in the last 25 years, that three of the articles are written just after HIS cars won 6 of 7, and Rory's had what?????

What would your opinion of been then of the two, exactly the opposite of what it is now, now that we see you cannot not even cross reference what you wrote with anything that you have actually read, because it was obvious that your Google skills suck.

No 2007 wasn't a smashing success WITHOUT NEWEY THEY HAD TO CHEAT, exploiting two teams worth of engineers is hardly convincing us that now Newey is gone its all good. I am not RicardoF1 for what its worth so if you think its a conspiracy that one person is totally in disagreement with you well its not, it may be many, and the reason is that you lack it.

[FPV GTHO]

I think Newey is still highly talented, but agree with an earlier sentiment that he works best with someone else, be that Patrick Head, Geoff Willis etc. I'm quietly optimistic he'll come up with a good design for the 2009 aero regs. He seemed to get McLarens aero concept for 2005 pretty much nailed first time, i dont think theyve really had to shake up their aero since then like Ferrari (06), Renault (06), Williams (06), Red Bull (07), Toyota (08), Honda (07, 08) and BMW (08) all have. Toyota too, with Gascoyne at the helm, had a good 2005. I think situations like that a single figure can still have a big influence.

[Al.]

I agree that certainly these days the team is more significant than any one designer.
Whether that was always the case I don't know. In terms of the 1980s John Barnard was attributed much of McLarens success (1984-86) but after he left for Ferrari Murray/Oatley didin't do too badly at McLaren. What help reinforce Barnards credentials was the turnaround at Ferrari 1989/1990.

1990s was all about Newey at Williams and then McLaren. Beyond that Brawn/Byrne at Ferrari into the 00s.

For Newey I remember Patrick Head being interviewed after McLarens titles in 1998/99 and pointing out although very talented, he knew when to move on. His departure at Williams coincided with the departure of Renault, which also contributed to the Williams fall from grace and his arrival at McLaren was Mercedes 4th season at at the team and an emergence as a force.

For me I was always impressed that in Newey cars, Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen all became World Champion. Of that group only Prost won other titles in other teams with other designers at the helm.
In contrast Bryne WC cars were all driven by Michael Schumacher at Benetton and then Ferrari.
So how much is Byne's success down to Schui and verse versa.
I think it is a bit of both. Some of those titles I don't think could have been won by anyone other than Schui, and some of those titles would have been won whoever was in the car.

What we now see is that like McLaren in the 1980s with the departure of Barnard, and McLaren last year with the departure of Newey and Ferrari last year with the depature of Brawn/Byrne is that they have put in place a structure of talented people to continue success.
But that is the nature of the teams at the top. Since 1979 and Scheckters WDC in a Ferrari, and the exception of Piquet in 1981 & 83 in a Brabbham, all the other WDC have been won by drivers in a Williams 7, McLaren 9, (Bennetton/Renault) 4 and Ferrari 6.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Al.
I agree that certainly these days the team is more significant than any one designer.
Whether that was always the case I don't know. In terms of the 1980s John Barnard was attributed much of McLarens success (1984-86) but after he left for Ferrari Murray/Oatley didin't do too badly at McLaren. What help reinforce Barnards credentials was the turnaround at Ferrari 1989/1990.

1990s was all about Newey at Williams and then McLaren. Beyond that Brawn/Byrne at Ferrari into the 00s.

For Newey I remember Patrick Head being interviewed after McLarens titles in 1998/99 and pointing out although very talented, he knew when to move on. His departure at Williams coincided with the departure of Renault, which also contributed to the Williams fall from grace and his arrival at McLaren was Mercedes 4th season at at the team and an emergence as a force.

For me I was always impressed that in Newey cars, Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen all became World Champion. Of that group only Prost won other titles in other teams with other designers at the helm.
In contrast Bryne WC cars were all driven by Michael Schumacher at Benetton and then Ferrari.
So how much is Byne's success down to Schui and verse versa.
I think it is a bit of both. Some of those titles I don't think could have been won by anyone other than Schui, and some of those titles would have been won whoever was in the car.

What we now see is that like McLaren in the 1980s with the departure of Barnard, and McLaren last year with the departure of Newey and Ferrari last year with the depature of Brawn/Byrne is that they have put in place a structure of talented people to continue success.
But that is the nature of the teams at the top. Since 1979 and Scheckters WDC in a Ferrari, and the exception of Piquet in 1981 & 83 in a Brabbham, all the other WDC have been won by drivers in a Williams 7, McLaren 9, (Bennetton/Renault) 4 and Ferrari 6.

Good post.

Think that you nail the structure part of the teams in question very well, and that it is obvious that the whole package have to be there for a team to succeed. I am a believe in drivers making a real difference, meaning that the best compliment the philosiphy of the design, and I will not hold it against a designer, that his cars only win when the best drivers are driving them, that is after all the nature of F1.

Were the two Brabhams not both penned by Murray? Another of the great designers?

I think that Barnhard's 'downfall' was his insistence of being based in the UK, instead of at the Ferrari works, all the parts have to work together, and being apart from the rest of the team can not be the way to go.

The evolvement of the teams, and he sheer size of the teams not, and the immense resources thrown at every little detail, mean that we will see fewer and fewer star designers, however I think that we still see that a 'marquee' designer makes a difference, and would use Gascoyne as an example, where Toyota never really have recovered from getting rid of him, but Spyker and now Force India is making markedly moves up the grid, so I do see him as being a difference. Honda have to an extent fallen in the same trap, not having the right man to come up with a base design that were useable. Honda have seen this, and moved for Brawn, and I expect that they will latest 2010 be fighting for wins on a regular basis.

The thread is about Newey, and I stand by what I posted earlier. He needs to be reigned in, but there is currently no one at Red Bull who can do that. In addition I personally do not think that the drivers are the right ones for Red Bull. Coulthard seem to be past his sell date by now, and Webber is a very good qualifier, but I honestly do not think that he this long in to his career, should still be seen as anything special.

If Red Bull went with Vettel only next season (meaning leave Bourdais at Toro Rosso), then they should hold on to Webber, for continuety and a measuring stick for Vettel.

Looking at the list of WDC drivers, I think that both Hill and Villeneuve were the weaker of them, and especially Villeneuve in retrospect now seem to have been graced by the car and not the other way around. And it is notable that apart from when Ralf and Montoya had a Super season, then Williams did loses the plot a little, and are only now battling back for real, and the one thing they have not had in their package have been a name designer. So the designer is still an important part.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by Al.

For me I was always impressed that in Newey cars, Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Hakkinen all became World Champion. Of that group only Prost won other titles in other teams with other designers at the helm.
In contrast Bryne WC cars were all driven by Michael Schumacher at Benetton and then Ferrari.
So how much is Byne's success down to Schui and verse versa.
I think it is a bit of both. Some of those titles I don't think could have been won by anyone other than Schui, and some of those titles would have been won whoever was in the car.

I agree this is the reason why people thought Newey was a better designer than Byrne. There was an era when almost any driver who stepped into his cars could win. Then he went to McLaren and turned them into winners as well. So I don't think he was overhyped, I think he had his era when he was indeed the best. Not any more though and I think that is because of the change of the times and maybe he ran out of ideas. In his last years with McLaren he wasn't that impressive at all and there were several occasions when he took the wrong direction.

In my mind he was more innovative than Byrne, but also took more risks and sometimes that brought him big success, sometimes big failure. Byrne may not be as innovative, but he was more consistent instead.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Al.

In contrast Bryne WC cars were all driven by Michael Schumacher at Benetton and then Ferrari.
So how much is Byne's success down to Schui and verse versa.
I think it is a bit of both. Some of those titles I don't think could have been won by anyone other than Schui, and some of those titles would have been won whoever was in the car.

I think Byrne was the classic intuitive aero designer, his world championships in model gliders attested to his first hand skill. It was Ferrari who first got the full time aero tunnel process into action. That IMO marked the shift away from the competitive advantage of the individual key designer .

[lustigson]

I made a comparisson between Newey and Byrne, a few years ago. At the time I made it, Byrne was actually more succesful than Newey, in both titles, wins and pionts, IIRC.

However, you're entirely correct to say that no one person builds a winning car — it's a team effort.

I'll see if I can find the comparisson later, and update it to include the last couple of seasons.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


Good post.

Think that you nail the structure part of the teams in question very well, and that it is obvious that the whole package have to be there for a team to succeed. I am a believe in drivers making a real difference, meaning that the best compliment the philosiphy of the design, and I will not hold it against a designer, that his cars only win when the best drivers are driving them, that is after all the nature of F1.

Were the two Brabhams not both penned by Murray? Another of the great designers?

I think that Barnhard's 'downfall' was his insistence of being based in the UK, instead of at the Ferrari works, all the parts have to work together, and being apart from the rest of the team can not be the way to go.

The evolvement of the teams, and he sheer size of the teams not, and the immense resources thrown at every little detail, mean that we will see fewer and fewer star designers, however I think that we still see that a 'marquee' designer makes a difference, and would use Gascoyne as an example, where Toyota never really have recovered from getting rid of him, but Spyker and now Force India is making markedly moves up the grid, so I do see him as being a difference. Honda have to an extent fallen in the same trap, not having the right man to come up with a base design that were useable. Honda have seen this, and moved for Brawn, and I expect that they will latest 2010 be fighting for wins on a regular basis.

The thread is about Newey, and I stand by what I posted earlier. He needs to be reigned in, but there is currently no one at Red Bull who can do that. In addition I personally do not think that the drivers are the right ones for Red Bull. Coulthard seem to be past his sell date by now, and Webber is a very good qualifier, but I honestly do not think that he this long in to his career, should still be seen as anything special.

If Red Bull went with Vettel only next season (meaning leave Bourdais at Toro Rosso), then they should hold on to Webber, for continuety and a measuring stick for Vettel.

Looking at the list of WDC drivers, I think that both Hill and Villeneuve were the weaker of them, and especially Villeneuve in retrospect now seem to have been graced by the car and not the other way around. And it is notable that apart from when Ralf and Montoya had a Super season, then Williams did loses the plot a little, and are only now battling back for real, and the one thing they have not had in their package have been a name designer. So the designer is still an important part.

I don't agree with any of this.

I'll just comment on Toyota. They look very strong this year. They are much better than they were when Gascoyne was there.

[Oho]

Quite frankly fro a long time I have thought Nevey had to be hyped just to explain why given mediocrities like Hill, Villeneuve and Häkkinen were able to challenge Michael Schumacher.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by Fatgadget
Excellent thread BTW

Until it predictably turned into another classic Atlas F1 BB 'Mclaren Vs Ferrari', 'Anyone Vs Schumacher', 'my dad is bigger than your dad' argument... :

Poor Max Mosely - I found the 'Max Mosely Part 2' thread to be the most entertaining on here in years. I thought it was due to the content that Max had inspired but now I wonder if it's because it's almost the only thread on here that doesn't contain threadbare 'discussion' about Mclaren, Ferrari, Schumacher, Alonso or Hamilton.....

[Gecko]

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
He needs to be reigned in, but there is currently no one at Red Bull who can do that.

Actually, Geoff Willis is precisely the man who is at Red Bull to take care of that. I expect them to move up during the season, not down.

It is pretty obvious why the modern era does not favour a star designer anymore. F1 design has been an exercise in refinement for a long while now, simply because the regulations are that strict. This allows teams with great facilities and an army of engineers to make the better final steps towards the top than those sporting a brilliant head designer. When F1 was still evolving with fresh ideas from one year to the next, it was the perfect time for star designers to shine. I don't think a group of designers actually made a leading designer obsolete, it is more down to the state of F1.

Where a star designer does come handy is picking up a team that is lagging badly due to some fundamental issues in the car's design. This is what Newey already did with Red Bull, and this is what Gascoyne is doing at Force India currently. But the final step to regular podiums takes a lot of people and a lot of investment in order to optimize the basic ideas.

It will be interesting to see what happens next season. The rulebook gets some serious revisions and fresh ideas will be needed. I would not be surprised if precisely the teams that have a strong lead designer are the ones to make the biggest initial jump.

[Tcas]

Originally posted by Most Fastest
Often haralded by the press as the greatest designer in the last 25 years (IMO that title is fullt deserved by South African R. Byrne, who won titles with two teams like Newey, but one of them being a smaller new comer to F1, Bennetton, in addition to just building more winning cars...that simple), it was believed that McLaren's fortune almost entirely rested in his hands.

How many titles and races did Byrne win without the best driver of his generation at the wheel? And how many has Newey? That right there is all the evidence you need that Newey was always a class above Byrne and anyone, at least until computers and wind tunnels have taken over in recent years. Newey was so dominant in the 90s it allowed average drivers to be faster than Schumacher and win titles.

Originally posted by Most Fastest

Now, Red Bull did in fact improve since newey arrived, but it is hard to understand how much it's the result of Newey's designs and how much is the river of cash from Red Bull, which allowed to improve EVERY area of the team. In addition, the cars seem to suffer, at least last season, a full Newey design, from the same cronic unreliability which had caused Kimi so much heartbreak.

Newey has been head designer since the late 80s. Red Bull is only a small part of his career. Now computers have replaced his genius.

Originally posted by Most Fastest

So, my question to all of you.....is this just a coincidence or is Newey in fact overrated and there are, given the same resources, several designers in F1 capable of proudcing just as good F1 cars as he is? is he the best designer in F1 in the past 25 years or is he the most hyped designer in F1 in the past 25 years?

Many designers have had the same resources in the top teams yet have failed to win single races. Look at Williams and Mclaren before and after he joined them. Its no coincidence they all became instant race winners with him.


Lets look at Neweys record.

Starts 296
Wins 100
Poles 119
Fastest laps 119
Podiums 246
WC 6
WCC 6

Thats without ever having the best driver of any era. Compare it to Byrne straight up and then remove Schumacher from Byrnes numbers.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Tcas
Thats without ever having the best driver of any era. Compare it to Byrne straight up and then remove Schumacher from Byrnes numbers.

Hence the 'team effort' statements above.

[Tcas]

Originally posted by lustigson

Hence the 'team effort' statements above.

What happened to Byrnes 'team' in 96/97 when Schumacher left? That really showed how good he was without Schumacher. Not very good.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Tcas
What happened to Byrnes 'team' in 96/97 when Schumacher left? That really showed how good he was without Schumacher. Not very good.

You're right, of course, but the same goes for Schumacher's 1996 and 2005 seasons at Ferrari. It's not just down to a designer, or a driver, or a cleaner in the factory: it's a team effort.

On Benetton's '96/'97 seasons specifically: I guess that Schumacher's departure seriously influenced morale at the team. A morale that the German again built up at Ferrari, during the same seasons.

[Tcas]

Originally posted by lustigson

You're right, of course, but the same goes for Schumacher's 1996 and 2005 seasons at Ferrari. It's not just down to a designer, or a driver, or a cleaner in the factory: it's a team effort.

On Benetton's '96/'97 seasons specifically: I guess that Schumacher's departure seriously influenced morale at the team. A morale that the German again built up at Ferrari, during the same seasons.

So your saying the reason benetton went from two WCs and 18 wins in two years to nothing was because of team morale?

[yr]

Originally posted by Al.


For Newey I remember Patrick Head being interviewed after McLarens titles in 1998/99 and pointing out although very talented, he knew when to move on. His departure at Williams coincided with the departure of Renault, which also contributed to the Williams fall from grace and his arrival at McLaren was Mercedes 4th season at at the team and an emergence as a force.

Neweys timing to swich team was perfect, IMO that one move alone has build his reputation almost completely.

People just like to hype inviduals like there was no tomorrow, it´s just part of the human nature. In F1 designers get most attention after drivers thus those two are the most hyped too. Michael gets away for winning with Byrne cars only because "who else won with Byrne cars?", that´s a two way street though, because "with what other cars Michael drove to WDC?". I believe they needed each other as well as they needed Brawn too, who was there when every single one of MS´s WDCs were won.

A good example of this "one man makes the difference" is Alonso. At the end of last year there were lots of people who kept reminding us that Renault droped the ball as soon as Alonso left while Mac started to improve. Well look at Renault and Alonso now, the miracle didnt happen instead Renault is even worse than last year.

Again: One man doesnt win anything alone in F1, it takes several brilliant people in key places and hundreds of very skilled and professional people in team to win the championships.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Tcas
So your saying the reason benetton went from two WCs and 18 wins in two years to nothing was because of team morale?

No, of course not. Firstly, Schumacher was quite a bit better than Berger and Alesi. Afteral, he scored more than double the points of team-mate Herbert. But second, his departure must have influenced morale, because even Herbert won two Grands Prix in '95, while neither Berger nor Alesi managed victory in '96. And that wasn't all down to the drivers, because both won a GP in '94 and '95 respectively, and it wasn't the Renault engine either, because the French took the '96 and '97 titles.

Long story short: team effort.;)

[FPV GTHO]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park

I'll just comment on Toyota. They look very strong this year. They are much better than they were when Gascoyne was there.

Gascoyne was only there to see one car from start to finish, the TF105. That just so happens to be their most successful car to date. Had he not been overruled in going to the Bridgestones in '06 and subsequently fired who knows how strong they'd be now.

[yr]

Originally posted by Tcas


What happened to Byrnes 'team' in 96/97 when Schumacher left? That really showed how good he was without Schumacher. Not very good.

What happened to Renault team in 07/08 when Alonso left? Wait, Alonso came back in 08 but things didn´t return to title-challenger level. Guess why? could it be that its a team sport where one man doesnt make the difference. Teams could get it all wrong, like Renault got it with their 07 car and are still suffering because of that. Could it be that Benetton also got it wrong in 96/97... with or without Schumi.

BTW why do you think Schumi wanted to have Byrne in Ferrari? IIRC Byrne was on his way to gardening leave, but Schumi and Brawn (Todt too) managed to convince him to sign in Ferrari. You try to downplay Byrnes efforts in Schumis titles, yet Schumi wanted drive specifically his cars, I wonder why?

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I don't agree with any of this.

I'll just comment on Toyota. They look very strong this year. They are much better than they were when Gascoyne was there.

Not agreeing is your porogative, you think that Toyota will score 88 points or better this season?

You think that Toyota will be a real force in any races this season?

You think that Toyota will take 5 podiums this season?

I disagree with that part. Toyota have been nowhere near their best performances when Gascoyne was the top dog designer there. And they assuredly are not this season either.

[shonguiz]

He's overrated as hell as all the the other star designer, he's a brillant engineer, no doubt about that, but an F1 car is made by hundred of peple and not one signle.

[former champ]

Williams Renault 1991-1997 and McLaren Mercedes late 1997-2000 is all the proof one needs. He was brilliant at what he did, anyone downplaying his contribution hasn't a clue. Also remember the Leyton House March back in the late 80's/early 90's? From what I remember not a bad bit of kit and Newey again was involved.

While it allowed the likes of Hill, Hakkinen and Villeneuve to have shots at World titles in top cars, lets not forget that it wasn't solely down to Newey. All were still great drivers, especially when you consider what the likes of Coulthard and Frentzen did in Newey cars. They did still have to race it.......

[Tcas]

Originally posted by lustigson


No, of course not. Firstly, Schumacher was quite a bit better than Berger and Alesi. Afteral, he scored more than double the points of team-mate Herbert. But second, his departure must have influenced morale, because even Herbert won two Grands Prix in '95, while neither Berger nor Alesi managed victory in '96. And that wasn't all down to the drivers, because both won a GP in '94 and '95 respectively, and it wasn't the Renault engine either, because the French took the '96 and '97 titles.
Long story short: team effort.;)

No good using Herbert as evidence of anything because the only reason he won those races was because the leaders took themselves out while he was half a lap behind.

[Tcas]

Originally posted by yr


What happened to Renault team in 07/08 when Alonso left? Wait, Alonso came back in 08 but things didn´t return to title-challenger level. Guess why? could it be that its a team sport where one man doesnt make the difference. Teams could get it all wrong, like Renault got it with their 07 car and are still suffering because of that. Could it be that Benetton also got it wrong in 96/97... with or without Schumi.

Your trying to use one single situation as an absolute rule, when this situation is not directly comparable to the rest. Since Alonso left Renault there have been regulation changes which have obviously hurt Renault so in this instance one driver alone cant make the difference. Doesnt mean thats an absolute rule as your trying to demonstrate. There were no regulation changes in 96/97 either. Whats Byrne ever done without Schumacher?

Originally posted by yr

BTW why do you think Schumi wanted to have Byrne in Ferrari? IIRC Byrne was on his way to gardening leave, but Schumi and Brawn (Todt too) managed to convince him to sign in Ferrari. You try to downplay Byrnes efforts in Schumis titles, yet Schumi wanted drive specifically his cars, I wonder why?

Because bryne was still good and good enough for Schumacher. Doesnt mean he was ever a patch on Newey.

[Chiara]

Originally posted by Tcas

Doesnt mean he was ever a patch on Newey.

Of course not, thats why Rory Byrne's cars won a total of 108 F1 Grand prix (7 WCC), while Adrian Newey's won a grand total of 83 (6 WCC). Knocked that Rory Byrne right into a cocked hat didn't he?

[rookie]

Originally posted by former champ
Williams Renault 1991-1997 and McLaren Mercedes late 1997-2000 is all the proof one needs. He was brilliant at what he did, anyone downplaying his contribution hasn't a clue. Also remember the Leyton House March back in the late 80's/early 90's? From what I remember not a bad bit of kit and Newey again was involved.

Agree.

He has a good record of adapting to big change in regulations better (96 Williams, 98 Mac, 05 Mac)than his peers which could show that he is pretty special when it comes to design, but as others have pointed the goal posts have shifted, with CFD, massive design teams etc and it's hard for one person to have as big effect any more....that said i think he is taking red bull in the right direction.

[former champ]

Originally posted by rookie


Agree.

He has a good record of adapting to big change in regulations better (96 Williams, 98 Mac, 05 Mac)than his peers which could show that he is pretty special when it comes to design, but as others have pointed the goal posts have shifted, with CFD, massive design teams etc and it's hard for one person to have as big effect any more....that said i think he is taking red bull in the right direction.

coudn't agree more. Well said.

[Atreiu]

Originally posted by Ferrim


Fixed.

You mean fixed for those who are poor at reading and intepreting, and my point still stands.

[Group B]

Originally posted by Imperial
He was the perfect genius in the era when a man of his genius could create championship winning cars.

That was drawing to a close a decade ago however. It's a different era now.

Ten years is a very very long time in motorsport design. I think it's simply a matter of it being a different era now and Adrian's designs just don't work as good as other designers'.

I tend to agree; he was the man c1992-2000, but designs, tools, methods, ideas, regs, opponents, etc have all changed since then.

[Tcas]

Originally posted by Chiara


Of course not, thats why Rory Byrne's cars won a total of 108 F1 Grand prix (7 WCC), while Adrian Newey's won a grand total of 83 (6 WCC). Knocked that Rory Byrne right into a cocked hat didn't he?

Neweys have won 100, not sure if Byrnes have won 106, sounds a bit large but the point is he always had arguably the best driver of all time driving his, while Newey never did. That is a major point there. For starters his cars had the performance advantage of Schumacher and secondly they never had to race against him, like the other teams. When they raced against him in 96/97 they won only 1 race.

[BMW_F1]

he was caught out of guard when new technologies started to appear and his skill set became outdated.
he was good in the 90's but not so good / more bad than good in this century.