58 replies to this topic

[mariner]

As I am a recognisable petrolhead I have been asked a couple of times " why does everybody say BMW's are the best handling cars" . My first, cynical reply is " because they have good engineers AND good marketeers".

My more considered suggestion is " I think BMW have long spent money on big tyres and good dampers".

I say that without any real knowledge of road car ride/handing optimisation but simply from observing that

a) BMW's usually have very generous tyre sizes, until recently the 5 series for example had bigger standard tyres than the equivalent Merc E class. A simple data test of kerb weight/sum of tread width seems to support this.

b) I have noticed in auto factor prices that BMW damper prices are among the highest for OEM parts.


My non expert suspicion is that the quality dampers keep the whels on the road more than cheaper ones and by using wider section tyres the car always operates well down in the linear tyre response range so it seems to handle well, i.e it feels "planted and linear " to 99% of road users.

I appreciate that any tyre gets to the non linear range at the limit but very few road users would ( hopefully) reach that point so my thought is that the low vertical load per footprint area keeps everything linear to the driver and good damping stops excess camber and load change again keeping the overall response clean.

Would the experts like Greg etc. kindly tell me if am saying the wrong thing here.

I suppose the other other point to raise , if my idea is valid, is whether BMW actually have better handling engineers than other manufacturers or whether the real brains in BMW are the marketeers who by getting huge prices for the product in the marketplace can give the engineers twice the budget of a guy like Greg working for a volume builder!!

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Does rear wheel drive not enter into it? Always strikes me as one of the biggest differences when I drive a BMW.

[mariner]

I am not really convinced on that point for two reasons

When Lotus set out to do their one and only front wheel drive car ( the gen 2 Elan) it got rave reviews on handling. True some thought it was a bit bland but all the reviews said its dynamics were outstanding, that suggests that for road cars up to a BHP/weight limit skilled ride/handling enginners can deliver good dynamics either way

Secondly the same people/ road testers who rave about BMW's handling well because of "rear wheel drive and 50/50 weight distribution" also rave about the BMW Mini having " great response because of FWD and a wheel at each corner".

The BMW Mini also has very large tyre sizes versus its weight and compared to its class peers, so I am not sure that it is just the rear wheel drive. Also the the very early BMW 325 had quite small wheels and that went quick but had so quite scary handing.

[Ben]

I think you may have a point. I had a very good pro driver the other day tell me that a tyre had "less grip" when in fact it had less cornering stiffness and more peak grip - it would appear that the difference between grip (friction coefficient) and response isn't clear.

It would be reasonably likely that you're getting more cornering stiffness if you go with wider tyres for a given curb weight.

Ben

[imaginesix]

You seem to be operating on the basis that there is some hard data on the superiority of something so intangible as 'handling'. I for one would like to see the data, or the method you used to conclude that the majority of reviews state their preference for the handling of BMWs over other marques. My own impression is that Porsche gets the lion's share of favourable mentions on that count.

Whatever the 'evidence', it probably boils down to something as simple as the fact that BMW has chosen to maintain a higher-performance image over comparable luxury marques, so they design (at the expense of luxury, economy, utility and so on) and market their cars in such a vein, which plays well with all those reviewers who mostly tend to favour performance over anything else.

IOW it could be just a matter of priorities and compromises.

[McGuire]

I'm not sure it's that BMWs handle better than other cars, though they do tend to handle very well. I think BMW spends a lot of time on making cars that are very satisfying to drive. It's the whole package... handling, ride, steering, control tactiles, seating, ergonomics...many BMW drivers who rave about the "handling" of their cars seldom drive them hard enough to squeal the tires. In a nutshell, it's how the car interacts with the driver to enrich the driving experience.

[Greg Locock]

I should point out that I am not an expert evaluator of cars at all. I only get going when we have some hard numbers to play with (although I do make the drafties laugh when I sit in front of the screen and drive through a graph with an imaginary steering wheel).

I haven't driven many different types of BMW - several 5 series over the years, a couple of X5s, and the Z1.

The Z1 was proof that they don't always get it right. Handling was OK but secondary ride was frankly abysmal. We fixed that up in a week by retuning the engine mounts.

5 series are very nice cars with a reasonable ride/handling balance (think of it as a curve, you usually trade one off against the other). Steering feel is good. They don't frighten Joe Blow when he first drives one when he gets a promotion.

Their electric steering is unique - the epicyclic gearbox arrangement in the column is the best way of doing it for all sorts of reasons. I haven't driven that system.

Their sales figures (they are a volume manufacturer) are such that they will be working directly with the tire manufacturers for each and every model. That is a huge plus.

They tend to stick with a given architecture and refine the hell out of it over a period of decades - I was most surprised when they went to an SLA instead of MacP for the new X5-perhaps they didn't like a cheapo Ford equalling or beating its handling! Actually the X5 is interesting, mostly it is very good but it has two nasty niggles, one is that if you are parking and apply a fair bit of lock and then accelerate, and let go of the wheel. Drivers would expect the steering wheel to centre itself at least as you rise above walking pace. It doesn't it just stays there until you are going quite fast. The other is the phasing of the steering wheel torque vs steering wheel angle in high speed turns. I'm not sure that is a huge concern, but if you wiggle the wheel during the turn it can fell as though the two are out of phase. Our guys thought it was a big deal, so our car doesn't do that. Note that both those issues are related to the front suspension. Anyway those two faults I can live with, the X5 is a terrific car.

I am told that they don't evaluate their cars against other brands, they just drive BMWs. That is self confidence.

Finally BMWs bodyshells tend to be a bit stiffer than most cars, there is no magic to this, their bodies are heavy. That gives them a good foundation for durability, squeaks and rattles, NVH, secondary ride, and even the handling maybe. (More accurately if the body is stiff and heavy you can be more aggressive with shock tuning for a given level of refienemnt).

Incidentally I wouldn't pay much attention to what journalists say about handling (present company excepted). Most of them that I've dealt with make Clarkson look like Fangio. If its got BMW on the badge it handles, thats what they expect, thats what their readers expect, and to be fair, BMW do deliver.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Greg Locock

Incidentally I wouldn't pay much attention to what journalists say about handling (present company excepted). Most of them that I've dealt with make Clarkson look like Fangio. If its got BMW on the badge it handles, thats what they expect, thats what their readers expect, and to be fair, BMW do deliver.

You nailed it.

[Greg Locock]

Just read a review of the 135i that does criticise the steering, oddly. The rest was a rave review admittedly.

I'm looking for bodyshell weights at the moment, I'm fairly sure that some of the 200+kg the X5 has over the Territory is bodyshell. It certainly isn't suspension, the Territory's is made out of proper metal, not that new fangled frozen electricity. And their front subframe is a nice aluminium thing that probably costs more than our engine.

[rookie]

A commitment to 50-50 (or as close as possible) front to rear weight balance goes a long a way

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
.

Finally BMWs bodyshells tend to be a bit stiffer than most cars, there is no magic to this, their bodies are heavy. That gives them a good foundation for durability, squeaks and rattles, NVH, secondary ride, and even the handling maybe. (More accurately if the body is stiff and heavy you can be more aggressive with shock tuning for a given level of refienemnt).

Incidentally I wouldn't pay much attention to what journalists say about handling (present company excepted). Most of them that I've dealt with make Clarkson look like Fangio. If its got BMW on the badge it handles, thats what they expect, thats what their readers expect, and to be fair, BMW do deliver.

Well said.

Bodyshell stiffness is a reason that a lot of Euros (past anyway) I suspect do the right thing in awkward situations such as a big hole halfway around a blind corner when your on the limit - those moments that squeeze your ass cheeks together. I drove a 1.8 Alfetta for 7 years and damn it was hard to upset it. But it was heavy. Coming from a background of (light) Toyota's, there really was a big difference no matter what suspension you threw at a Toyota (a cage helped though).

Mariner, as Greg alludes to, what would you expect to handle better - A BMW or a Hyundai? Your immediate first thought helps to answer your question. My own Mazda 6 with its complicated front suspension, is badly let down by 50 cent shockers.

[phantom II]

Discuss! Nevermind. Every once in a while, a car comes along that is light years ahead of the others.
The new 5 series is a luxury car in every sense of the word. I usually have disdain for people who drive BMWs but you just got to drive this car. I'm talking about the base car. We are on the market for a car and since we are old farts, ride quality is the most important. I can't understand the point of a 'Sports' sedan. I want a sports car or a luxury car with little compromise. The 5 series is astonishing and the E class is disgraceful. I never drove the BM fast, its never going to go fast so I don't really care what lap time it gets around the Ring. American cars used to float like boats, but it sure was a nice way to eat up long straight interstate miles. A lot of people miss that ride and some are not even aware that such cars existed. Cadillac lost a lot of old folks to Lexus because of their rough riding cars, DTS excepted. Lexus has this lazy boat like ride that old folks prefer but it is a dead car. By old, I mean people older than me. The Caddy DTS is much better than the Lexus but the 5 series has taken this ride to another level of refinement..
The way I test a luxury car is to take it to the worst city streets imaginable. I drive over railroad tracks and drive off curbs, etc. Under no circumstances will the BM loose its composure. Its going to take a long time for other manufacturers to catch up. Getting back into the Oldsmobile after the BM was a little disturbing.
The question is, will a couple of gun toting, Reagan Republican red neck old farts end up with such a car as this? I wonder if the BM is this nice with 4 people in it? I hope not. Its my reputation you know?
I doubt that this car is built for the American market only, I think Lexus started them in this direction. The tires aren't huge either. I drove in the back of a new 7 series. It was simply awful. I think the I Drive thingy is cool.

Originally posted by mariner
As I am a recognisable petrolhead I have been asked a couple of times " why does everybody say BMW's are the best handling cars" . My first, cynical reply is " because they have good engineers AND good marketeers".

My more considered suggestion is " I think BMW have long spent money on big tyres and good dampers".

I say that without any real knowledge of road car ride/handing optimisation but simply from observing that

a) BMW's usually have very generous tyre sizes, until recently the 5 series for example had bigger standard tyres than the equivalent Merc E class. A simple data test of kerb weight/sum of tread width seems to support this.

b) I have noticed in auto factor prices that BMW damper prices are among the highest for OEM parts.


My non expert suspicion is that the quality dampers keep the whels on the road more than cheaper ones and by using wider section tyres the car always operates well down in the linear tyre response range so it seems to handle well, i.e it feels "planted and linear " to 99% of road users.

I appreciate that any tyre gets to the non linear range at the limit but very few road users would ( hopefully) reach that point so my thought is that the low vertical load per footprint area keeps everything linear to the driver and good damping stops excess camber and load change again keeping the overall response clean.

Would the experts like Greg etc. kindly tell me if am saying the wrong thing here.

I suppose the other other point to raise , if my idea is valid, is whether BMW actually have better handling engineers than other manufacturers or whether the real brains in BMW are the marketeers who by getting huge prices for the product in the marketplace can give the engineers twice the budget of a guy like Greg working for a volume builder!!

[J. Edlund]

BMW's are quite expensive, and money buys stuff. Stuff like multilink rear suspensions, limited slip differentials, light alloy control arms and uprights etc. If we add all those things togethet you get a performance advantage.

Compromises are always involved in car designs. Tire traction vs. roll resistance and tire wear, weight reduction vs. cost, handling vs. ride quality and so on. BMW's compromises are on the expensive, performance side of things.

When it comes to lap times, BMW's are generally not that impressive (they are simply too heavy), but gives a good "complete package".

[kikiturbo2]

I work for the croatian edition of EVO magazine.. we just did a back to back test of the new jag XF (with the supercharged V8) and the 535d (with the M suspension and bodykit).....

now, putting the HP diference aside, Jaguar did many things better, it was great on B roads, had better steering, and body control.
BMW, in my opinion, made a mistake with the suspension, as it was obvious that they wanted compliance and comfort, but left too little travel (or it was too soft in the start whichever way you want to look at it)... so on our normal bumpy B roads you would get these moments of soft bump followed with sudden impact onto the bumpstop, followed with a major jolt to the body..) in other words not good...
So, in my editors opinion, Jaguar was better... however, for me, the BMW as a package was just great.. better seating position, and a chassis that wants to "play" with verry little understeer, and the ESP that gives just the right ammount of oversteer so that the driver can feel like a schumacher of sorts... in other words, not perfect, but more fun.. of course, I am still 34, and can not stand cars that float around.... have been spoiled by my personal Lancer Evolution 9 and can not praise the benefits of active yaw control too much..

I also like the Idrive thingy... takes a while to get used to..

cheers

vladimir

[phantom II]

Hey, there are 20 billion of us old farts and growing. You build cars the way we want them OK? You think we give a **** that you young punks want to pass us while we hog the fast lane. When I was your age, men were men and girls knew it.

Originally posted by kikiturbo2
I work for the croatian edition of EVO magazine.. we just did a back to back test of the new jag XF (with the supercharged V8) and the 535d (with the M suspension and bodykit).....

now, putting the HP diference aside, Jaguar did many things better, it was great on B roads, had better steering, and body control.
BMW, in my opinion, made a mistake with the suspension, as it was obvious that they wanted compliance and comfort, but left too little travel (or it was too soft in the start whichever way you want to look at it)... so on our normal bumpy B roads you would get these moments of soft bump followed with sudden impact onto the bumpstop, followed with a major jolt to the body..) in other words not good...
So, in my editors opinion, Jaguar was better... however, for me, the BMW as a package was just great.. better seating position, and a chassis that wants to "play" with verry little understeer, and the ESP that gives just the right ammount of oversteer so that the driver can feel like a schumacher of sorts... in other words, not perfect, but more fun.. of course, I am still 34, and can not stand cars that float around.... have been spoiled by my personal Lancer Evolution 9 and can not praise the benefits of active yaw control too much..

I also like the Idrive thingy... takes a while to get used to..

cheers

vladimir

[Canuck]

Originally posted by phantom II
I can't understand the point of a 'Sports' sedan.

Easy - for people like me. Actually, never mind the sedan, give me the 500hp M5 wagon thank you very much. I have a wife and 2 kids (with one more on the way) and real dog (you know, one that doesn't fit in a handbag). In essence, for a family man in a one or two car family, this is ideal - haul ass with the kids.

[britishtrident]

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
Does rear wheel drive not enter into it? Always strikes me as one of the biggest differences when I drive a BMW.

Not really as much as you might think The Rover 75 & MG ZT were in fact FWD BMWs --- the floor pan suspension layout were lifted right out the BMW 3 & 5 series parts bins to the extent that Rover were able build a RWD V8 75 once they were free of the BMW shackles.

The Rover model has much softer suspension than BMW the MG stiffer & lower - both handle really well and don't feel like RWD drive cars unless you plant the gas pedal in low gear but only the MG feels boy racer.

[kikiturbo2]

Originally posted by phantom II
Hey, there are 20 billion of us old farts and growing. You build cars the way we want them OK? You think we give a **** that you young punks want to pass us while we hog the fast lane. When I was your age, men were men and girls knew it.

I understand what you are saying.. but I just don't dig those lifeless sedans... .had a go in a largest Lexus barge they have in europe.. comfortable, yes, motion sickness inducing also... like having sex with 3 condoms on..

New Jag XF shows you can have comfort AND a degree of driving enjoyment.. you can have both you know...

[Gerald Ryan]

Greg

That epicyclic gearbox steering system BMW uses is woeful. It feels terrible- very odd and sometimes prone to performing in an unanticipated manner. Worse, think of the new and exciting failure modes it introduces! Interesting, but a needlessly complex solution. It spoils the 7 (mind you, so does the styling and that mouse toy thingy, that's a real oddity).

Many BMW sedans are let down by their steering (usually too dead & too slow). One wag sugested they are compromised for the autobahs. Could be. They do not work all that well elsewhere. People get used to it though. Perhaps that's what BMW really accomplished here. They have trained a generation or two of drivers to expect a certain feel and a particular response. It doesn't matter that it isn't ideal or that it is flawed in some ways. And once the ego is captured...

As to ride. Most modern cars are terrible. The old Jaguar XJ sedans (series 1,2 & 3) were much better. There are some lessons that could still be learned from them.

A few years back I visited the USA and was surprised by the refinement of an old '70s Ford (Torino or something like that- can't remember). It had been well maintained by the owner (an enthusiastic collector). That car had a system of sub-frames and rubber insulators. The suspension looked to be standard enough fare for a largish US car. Worked quite well. Good ride over indifferent surfaces. Quiet too. Seems something's been lost over recent years. Perhaps everyone is too busy trying to build their own version of a German car. Building German cars is probably best left to the Germans to do...

BTW have you come across Erik Zapletal's "Balanced Suspension"?

Regards

Gerald

[Mark A]

Originally posted by britishtrident


Not really as much as you might think The Rover 75 & MG ZT were in fact FWD BMWs --- the floor pan suspension layout were lifted right out the BMW 3 & 5 series parts bins.

No it wasn't. A rumour put about by the press down to the large transmission. There are no BMW parts used in the suspension and steering system of the Rover 75.

BMW influenced the design concept (pushing through a change from a strut rear suspension to the Z-axle) but the actual design work was done by Rover, as was all the tuning work.
The fact that the rear Z-axle has similarities to the E46 3-series doesn't actually mean they are the same as the Kinematic and compliance requirements of a suspension system is totally different between RWD & FWD, have a look at the 2 and you will see how different they actually are, the concept is the same but that's as far as it goes.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Gerald Ryan


A few years back I visited the USA and was surprised by the refinement of an old '70s Ford (Torino or something like that- can't remember). It had been well maintained by the owner (an enthusiastic collector). That car had a system of sub-frames and rubber insulators. The suspension looked to be standard enough fare for a largish US car. Worked quite well. Good ride over indifferent surfaces. Quiet too. Seems something's been lost over recent years.

Was it fitted with bias ply tires by any chance?

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Gerald Ryan
Greg

Many BMW sedans are let down by their steering (usually too dead & too slow). One wag sugested they are compromised for the autobahs. Could be. They do not work all that well elsewhere. People get used to it though. Perhaps that's what BMW really accomplished here. They have trained a generation or two of drivers to expect a certain feel and a particular response. It doesn't matter that it isn't ideal or that it is flawed in some ways. And once the ego is captured...

I probably have a higher regard for BMW steering than you do, but otherwise I see a lot in what you say. BMW has been so good for so long that reviewers and consumers alike identify "good" feel and tactile response with the BMW feel and tactile response. It's a very nice feel but it's not the only way to do a good car, not by a long shot. But to their credit they carved out a very advantageous position for themselves: benchmark.

At one time Mercedes-Benz seemed to own the position now held by BMW, but its cars are now all over the place. When I started in the biz one of my first jobs as a co-op slave was in reverse engineering aka competitive analysis. This is where you do things like disassemble an entire car and hang the pieces on giant rolling pegboards so the suits can come in and look it all over. M-B had the most amazing gear at that time... some of it was very good but some of it was ridiculous. $200 heater control valves with 87 moving parts, stuff like that. Ours cost $3 and did exactly the same thing.

[mariner]

I sort of ignored road surface in my original post and assumed that the road is always smooth enough for damping to triumph over springs ( as it were).

Traditionally German roads were smooth, UK ones bumpy and US ones plain bad (at least in the northeast).

That might have led to the famous "firm german ride" beloved of reviewers because the ride/handing compromise could safely go to the handing end.

US roads on the ohter hand could be so bad ( at least in the North East snow belt where I lived once) that just making the car survive the potholes must have been a challenge. Big, high profile tyres cart springs and perimeter frames don't help handling but they sure can absorb potholes. Sombody told me once that the GM test was 10" pothole, big but easy to find in Detroit I think.

Today the UK roads have deteriorated markedly despite milder winters. Joint cracks, holes and break up's are common. It has been remarked how the base ( small high profile tyre ) variants of some model ranges are actually nicer cars now on UK roads than the sports versions.

Maybe if F1 tracks had some bumps specified around them in the regulations it would create some more innovation and street transferable tyre design.

[Greg Locock]

The reason I like the concept of the epicyclic EPAS is that if the motor seizes (admittedly unlikely) or the plug comes adrift then the steering can still work. We'll have to see if you can back drive the other EPAS types - if anyone has one, can you turn the steering wheel with the ignition off?

[cheapracer]

Ramblings...

China news not 1 minute ago, Chrysler Daimler expect to overhaul BMW for the top spot in the luxury car market in the next few weeks (read 300C Vs 7 series) and BMW have announced the building of a second factory. (I didnt know they had a first!)

Rode in the back ofboth a brand new MB SL600 and SL350 some weeks ago over some distance, the 600 was awful based on what I was expecting (choppy ride) and the 350 was brilliant, go figure - possibly not enough miles on the 600? Bothe were less than 2000 kms old.

Canuck - "haul ass with the kids"? - Maybe you should go work with some Ambo's or Towies for a few nights, kinda gives you a new light on things.

[Greg Locock]

The best car I've ever driven for just sitting in and eating up the miles (in Australia's boring speed limits and straight roads) is the original Lexus 400. Nice chairs, good climate control, great stereo in a quiet cabin(seriously, the sound quality was at least in the same ballpark as listening to the same music at home, not a claim you can make about many cars), the engine makes the right sort of noises, nice soft suspension.

Lethal ABS on gravel roads, but there ya go. And from a nerdy point of view, it is a very nice engine, wasted in that application.

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by cheapracer
Ramblings...

China news not 1 minute ago, Chrysler Daimler expect to overhaul BMW for the top spot in the luxury car market in the next few weeks (read 300C Vs 7 series) and BMW have announced the building of a second factory.

Further ramblings...

That's as conclusive evidence as I need that the Chinese are completely isolated from outside media, and that Chrysler has more bribe money than BMW.

[Powersteer]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
The Z1 was proof that they don't always get it right. Handling was OK but secondary ride was frankly abysmal. We fixed that up in a week by retuning the engine mounts.

So if someone drives it real rough, they might see the engine through the bonnet? Interesting how the engine shake can have such an effect or is it that its just a big blunder? Amazing. Must have took a while to figure that one out.

[Greg Locock]

No they'd have had snubbers.

It doesn't take long to identify that sort of problem - I think within 3 days we knew what to do, the rest was just fabrication time. A really good question is why our management thought that it was worth our time sorting a car out just for fun, I must say that I sent a long time at Lotus messing about with engine mounts, one way or another, so it was good practice.

[phantom II]

G'day mate. It shows you just checked in a 7:20 PM my time (EST) . I'm curious. What time is it where you are? It is going on 7:30 PM and I am pushing reply now.

Originally posted by Greg Locock
No they'd have had snubbers.

It doesn't take long to identify that sort of problem - I think within 3 days we knew what to do, the rest was just fabrication time. A really good question is why our management thought that it was worth our time sorting a car out just for fun, I must say that I sent a long time at Lotus messing about with engine mounts, one way or another, so it was good practice.

[Greg Locock]

932am

[phantom II]

Outlook audio alerts me at 7:36. AUD/USD pair .9343. $ steady since Friday close.

Originally posted by Greg Locock
932am

[phantom II]

Heavy trading AUD/JPY. 97.1409 96.9372 since you checked in. 95.6438 Friday close.

Originally posted by phantom II
Outlook audio alerts me at 7:36. AUD/USD pair .9343. $ steady since Friday close.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by imaginesix
Further ramblings...

That's as conclusive evidence as I need that the Chinese are completely isolated from outside media, and that Chrysler has more bribe money than BMW.

Thats sales in China you realise?

[NRoshier]

Originally posted by phantom II
You build cars the way we want them OK? You think we give a ****... When I was your age, men were men and girls knew it.

Say are you related to Maxx Mosley?

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by cheapracer
Thats sales in China you realise?

I realize that. It's not the sales figures that I think are distorted, it's the designation of Chrysler as a luxury marque comparable to BMW that is risible outside of China..

[phantom II]

You obviously haven't driven a Chrysler 300 Hemi. It has a E class platform and running gear except engine. It looks like a Bentley. BMWs look awful.
I thought Buick and Cadillac outsold BMW luxury cars in China. At least they did when I was last there in 03.They even make a stretched version of the STS which is not availible in the US. Plus a FWD and station wagon Caddy.

Originally posted by imaginesix
I realize that. It's not the sales figures that I think are distorted, it's the designation of Chrysler as a luxury marque comparable to BMW that is risible outside of China..

[phantom II]

I was taking the video.

Originally posted by NRoshier


Say are you related to Maxx Mosley?

[phantom II]

We drove the Jag on Saturday but it was nothing like the 5 series BM. I think Ford had too much influence on the XF and it shows. The Ian Cullam concept was better than the production car and the dash is simply cheap even on the expensive one. On the cheap dash, it has exactley the same plastic as the old CTS but Cadillac made it intergrate well.
Its got a weird rotating knob gearshift that retracts into the console. We drove the Holden Commodore, er Pontiac G8 and it seems to be the best value. Excellent quality and a massive trunk(boot) and tons of power but it doesn't make the same impression as the BM but better than the Jag.
My heart lies with a Cadillac that hasn't been built yet. A Bentley size V12 Cadillac is what I want.
I wrote to GM about it, I'll post the reply.
German cars seem to loose it if you add passengers and luggage and that is why I wondered how the 5 series would handle with 4 people. Still, it is quite an engineering achievement to get that old American boat ride feel, coupled with athletic ability. I think it is becoming a trend. Now if they could just add the quietness of a Cadillac or a Lexus it would be something. The DTS wins but my wife won't drive Cadillac.
A well engineered super luxury car is just as pleasing to experience as race car chassis that works well and probably more of a challenge to design. Some engineers get up early in the morning.

Originally posted by kikiturbo2
I work for the croatian edition of EVO magazine.. we just did a back to back test of the new jag XF (with the supercharged V8) and the 535d (with the M suspension and bodykit).....

now, putting the HP diference aside, Jaguar did many things better, it was great on B roads, had better steering, and body control.
BMW, in my opinion, made a mistake with the suspension, as it was obvious that they wanted compliance and comfort, but left too little travel (or it was too soft in the start whichever way you want to look at it)... so on our normal bumpy B roads you would get these moments of soft bump followed with sudden impact onto the bumpstop, followed with a major jolt to the body..) in other words not good...
So, in my editors opinion, Jaguar was better... however, for me, the BMW as a package was just great.. better seating position, and a chassis that wants to "play" with verry little understeer, and the ESP that gives just the right ammount of oversteer so that the driver can feel like a schumacher of sorts... in other words, not perfect, but more fun.. of course, I am still 34, and can not stand cars that float around.... have been spoiled by my personal Lancer Evolution 9 and can not praise the benefits of active yaw control too much..

I also like the Idrive thingy... takes a while to get used to..

cheers

vladimir

[McGuire]

Originally posted by phantom II
The DTS wins but my wife won't drive Cadillac.

What is she, a communist?

[phantom II]

She would want a Volvo then. Right? I want her in a FWD or AWD big car with plenty space in the rear for our parents that is easy to enter and exit. She's the boss.

Originally posted by McGuire


What is she, a communist?

[McGuire]

Hmm, FWD/AWD sedan with a large rear seat and doors... unless you want to pay silly money for an S-class with 4Matic or bore yourself to death with a Lexus, you have one choice: DTS. Stick some Saturn emblems on it, who's to know.

...reminds me, I want to start selling stick-on "Hybrid" emblems. Self-adhesive vacuum-chrome plastic, fits all makes and models. Tell the world you Really Care for only $19.99. I figure we can have them made in China for 20 cents each. Are you in with me?

[Todd]

Originally posted by McGuire
Hmm, FWD/AWD sedan with a large rear seat and doors... unless you want to pay silly money for an S-class with 4Matic or bore yourself to death with a Lexus, you have one choice: DTS. Stick some Saturn emblems on it, who's to know.

...reminds me, I want to start selling stick-on "Hybrid" emblems. Self-adhesive vacuum-chrome plastic, fits all makes and models. Tell the world you Really Care for only $19.99. I figure we can have them made in China for 20 cents each. Are you in with me?

And unless things have changed in the past couple years, you'd be able to drive solo in the HOV lanes around DC. I read a post on another forum from someone seeking technical advice. He was trying to add remote starting to his Prius. Maybe even the 'real' ones are costumes.

[phantom II]

I'm with you brother. I'm with you. Saturn, you say? How about Buick badges on Masserati Quatreportes. When ever I see those port holes, I want to slap somebody.

Originally posted by McGuire
Hmm, FWD/AWD sedan with a large rear seat and doors... unless you want to pay silly money for an S-class with 4Matic or bore yourself to death with a Lexus, you have one choice: DTS. Stick some Saturn emblems on it, who's to know.

...reminds me, I want to start selling stick-on "Hybrid" emblems. Self-adhesive vacuum-chrome plastic, fits all makes and models. Tell the world you Really Care for only $19.99. I figure we can have them made in China for 20 cents each. Are you in with me?

[johnny yuma]

I recall driving the Alfa Giulia Super and BMW 2002 from 40 ODD YEARS AGO.Both handled superbly-nice light steering ,plenty of feel,good manners,grip when pushed hard--nice touring cars.All achieved without power steering and with skinny rubber.From this base so long ago the BMW HAS FORGOTTEN NOTHING and built on it AND kept rear wheel drive.Subaru and Toyota are reportedly collaborating on a 1100kg 2 litre Rear wheel drive.The formula is right.DAMPERS DO NOT A SPORTS CAR MAKE! Its about weight,balance and sound engineering.

[thiscocks]

Im not sure you can say all BMWs handle well. Generally they may heve the edge handling wise over say Jaguar, but this is only if your talking about "sporty" handling. If you dont want this (and in a big car I cant imagine why you would) then generally I think they are not the choice. For example the Jag XKR kicks the ass off the M6 for all-round handling ability.(amoung other things)

Genarally I think most people are fooled into thinking all BMWs handle well just because they have a bone shatteringly hard ride. I drove my friends new mini a couple of years back, and coming from my peugeot 106, I couldn't believe how hard the ride was (admittedly it was on 17"ers). Just driving around town became really tiresome I thought. The press seem to forgive, or just totally ingnore the fact that they have such stupidly stiff suspension and then say they handle the best. Where as other car makers ususlly actually have a much nicer balance of low speed ride/sporty handling.

I do respect BMW and merc for keeping RWD though.

I must confess I havent actually driven many BMWs though so Im mainly basing my opinion on others experience.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by johnny yuma
DAMPERS DO NOT A SPORTS CAR MAKE! Its about weight,balance and sound engineering.

Umm, BMW's are heavy, front weight biased and there is only X you can do with a McPh. front suspension.

Some friends of mine raced a Viper at Willowbank (Oz), bolted in Penske shocks, no other changes (not allowed) and picked up over 1 second per lap.

Not just shocks - bushes for control arms, roll bars, strut tower mounts etc. have a lot of influence as well, as I'm sure Greg knows more about than me.

[phantom II]

That's right, you reminded me that the 5 series feels like a French car. I really think BMW tried to copy the Lexus ride without including the deadness and ended up with a French car. It then occurred to me that the French have always made suspensions like that. What is extraordinary about their designs, is they don't rely on mass to smooth out the bumps. A little 206/7 is the most fun to drive with a big car ride. There is nothing like it available in the US. I think French and Italians have been the leaders in suspension design for decades. Driving a car, any car should bring a smile to your face. There was a time when you could tell which country a car was from by the way it drove. Internationalism is certainly blurring the lines. My Z06 is the first American car that doesn't feel like an American car. The steering, the shocks, the differential work so darned well. I would even say that the ride quality is exactly the same as a F430.
My wife and I looked at one another while I was driving the BM, and agreed that it was special without saying a word.

Originally posted by thiscocks
I drove my friends new mini a couple of years back, and coming from my peugeot 106,
I do respect BMW and merc for keeping RWD though.

I must confess I havent actually driven many BMWs though so Im mainly basing my opinion on others experience.

[Todd]

Originally posted by cheapracer


Umm, BMW's are heavy, front weight biased and there is only X you can do with a McPh. front suspension.

I would argue that BMW have forgotten everything that made cars like the 2002 such a joy to drive, but they are generally the most balanced line of cars from front to rear. Starting with the E36, BMW moved the front wheels forward until the desired balance was achieved. This produces long wheelbases necessitating heavy cars to maintain chassis stiffness relative to their interior sizes, while also representing a reversion to pre-Chrysler Airflow proportions and engine placement. As for the front struts, I recall thinking it ironic that everyone had something bad to say about them, while BMW and Porsche represented benchmarks for suspension behavior and steering feel using nothing but. There may only be so much you can do with struts, but who is doing more with anything else, even today?

When I say BMW forgot what made their cars great, I mean that their current line of gadget packed gin palaces are an affront to enthusiasts who enjoyed their cars in years past. It used to be that you bought a BMW because you liked to drive. If you wanted toys and colorful displays in the dash, you bought a Cressida or a 'personal luxury car.' The BMW of the past wouldn't have put something on the car just because it existed. Run flat tires, active steering, i-drive(while you try to tune the radio), and constant styling tweaks have as much place on BMWs as Volkswagon engines have in Bentleys. At this point, they probably only have the short front overhang because Chris Bangle likes the look.

[Todd]

Originally posted by thiscocks
Im not sure you can say all BMWs handle well. Generally they may heve the edge handling wise over say Jaguar, but this is only if your talking about "sporty" handling. If you dont want this (and in a big car I cant imagine why you would) then generally I think they are not the choice. For example the Jag XKR kicks the ass off the M6 for all-round handling ability.(amoung other things)

Genarally I think most people are fooled into thinking all BMWs handle well just because they have a bone shatteringly hard ride. I drove my friends new mini a couple of years back, and coming from my peugeot 106, I couldn't believe how hard the ride was (admittedly it was on 17"ers). Just driving around town became really tiresome I thought. The press seem to forgive, or just totally ingnore the fact that they have such stupidly stiff suspension and then say they handle the best. Where as other car makers ususlly actually have a much nicer balance of low speed ride/sporty handling.

I do respect BMW and merc for keeping RWD though.

I must confess I havent actually driven many BMWs though so Im mainly basing my opinion on others experience.

Isn't the national character of suspension tuning a simple result of their driving conditions? Germans have, or at least had, glass smooth roads and needed high speed stability that a wallowing car would lack. French had crummy rural roads, so they needed long wheel travel. Brits use hard sponges for pavement, so they focused on isolation from tire noise and vibration. That's the way I remember it being explained anyway.