47 replies to this topic

[Martin Roessler]

Hi there,
stumbled over doug nye's old thread
alfa romeo tz1 histories
and was wondering if someone could help me with a few pictures....
i have a series of pictures from Jean Rolland/Andrea de Adamich/Teodoro Zeccoli's car that crashed in practice at the 1000km 1965 race at the nuerburgring.it's in the list as a tz2 but i always thought from looking at the pictures (especially from the back) that its a tz...
i had a look at the online book about the tz/tz2 history from classicscars and the car there was clearly a tz2
1965 chamrousse,1965 hillclimb mont dore.
1 month later the numberplate 105339 UD appeared on car chassis number 750112 at lemans.did they just use the old numberplate from 750109 (maybe thats why the were mixed up referring to classicscars)?
just wondering how much of the original car that crashed at the nuerburgring was used to rebuild it,looks pretty messy to me.
750109 was later sold to australia where it kindof morphed into 750112 and crashed again.
in chapter 5 of classicscars online book it says:"when the car was restored,they removed a chassis plate which was welded on the chassis" 1999 sold by dealer.
so all thats left of 750109 was the chassis plate?
can someone shed some light on this story?
thanks and cheers marty

[275 GTB-4]

....only to add that Max Brunninghausen campaigned a white TZ device here in Australia....do a search on Max and say Warwick Farm etc

[Bjorn Kjer]

Hi Martin , to me its definetely a TZ ! The TZ2 did not have the small side window , in fact they had none! Sorry I cant help you on , but thanks for the pictures , especially then one with the Opel Blitz taking it away ( to the graveyard I would presume)!

PS. According to Wimpffen : Ambroeus , Koob and Walker-Day had TZ and Autodelta had TZ2's however ! And Wimppfen notes the crashed car as a TZ2 ! But this is of course no guarantee !

[Ray Bell]

To further complicate the Australian side of it...

Mildren's had both a TZ and a TZ2, IIRC, Max Brunninghausen later owned both of them (at different times).

[Martin Roessler]

according to olczyk's book the tz was #750061 white/black 1964 and was sold to brunninghausen in 1965.
in 1967 he got hold of the tz2 750112 (750109)

the automobile club italy said that car 750109 was destroyed (1966) (olczyk)

that is what the tz1/tz2 register said about 750109:
year of construction 1965
According to Fusi: TZ-1 built in 1966, possibly converted to TZ-2 by Autodelta (from the link in doug's original thread)

very confusing indeed....
what we see on the pictures is obviously a TZ at the ring in 1965,after the crash the car was either wrecked or rebuilt as a TZ2 around the chassis plate :
cheers marty

[metalshapes]

The car in these pics looks like it has a Fiberglass body, but it has the TZ1 shape.

I knew the TZ2's were Fiberglass, but didn't realise there were any TZ1's that were built that way...

I thought they all had Aluminum bodies.


Was this a one off, or were more made that way?

[RJE]

I'm glad somebody has brought up the subject of Alfa Romeo TZ1s as there maybe someone out there who can answer something that has puzzled me for many years.

In 1965 while living outside Toronto I worked on a TZ1 that had been imported into Canada by a company with a name like European Motors or some such. The car was entrusted to Al Pease for whom I worked at the time. Although I am not sure of this I seem to remember that the car was new or had not seen much service. It seemed to appear quite suddenly with little notice. All red and exotic.

This TZ was set up for endurance racing and had a very long axle ratio, far too high for what was envisaged for the car. Therefore one of the first tasks entrusted to me was to drive my rather tired Sprite down to Cleavland Ohio and collect a lower ratio CWP from Chuck Stoddard. Chuck was very friendly and affable and showed me round his workshop where he had every conceivable type of Alfa except for a TZ. Upon returning to base and removing the diff. unit we found that although the new CWP fitted fine it lacked the 'finger' on the front of the pinion which located the rubber donut type universal joint. This entailed making a 'finger' and welding it to the front of the pinion. Something we did with much trepidation, although it did work.

This done and with the Alfa trailing behind an old Pontiac borrowed from Craig Fisher, two of us set off on a 400 mile trip to St Jovite for the cars first race. My fellow worker with the Pontiac and me with Al's trusty Cadillac with the MGB and Mini on a trailer. The affairs surrounding this trip would warrent a thead of their own. But I digress.

At St Jovite, despite the TZs supposed power, its 'nimble handling' and some spirited driving from Al the Alfa was comprehensivley blown away by the Elans the quickest as I recall run by Cambridge Motors.

I cannot claim to being in love with that TZ. I always thought it a bxxxxd to work on and it was always going to be totally out of its depth when it came to sprint type races. However the car was the real deal, twin plug head, big Webers, all alloy body, the works, in hindsight perhaps I should have taken more notice.

Now for my question. This particular TZ1 seemed to dissappear as quickly as it had appeared and although I left Pease not long after the above escapade I cannot recall seeing it race again, if so not very often. Does anybody know which car it was, what happened to it, also what was it doing in Canada, not really a place where it could have been expected to do well given the type of racing. Who imported it?

Strangely I seem to have no photographs of the car. Odd as I have lots of that period, but maybe an indication of how I felt about it. Shows how wrong you can be.

[Zagato_Olaf]

Originally posted by Martin Roessler
according to olczyk's book the tz was #750061 white/black 1964 and was sold to brunninghausen in 1965.
in 1967 he got hold of the tz2 750112 (750109)

the automobile club italy said that car 750109 was destroyed (1966) (olczyk)

that is what the tz1/tz2 register said about 750109:
year of construction 1965
According to Fusi: TZ-1 built in 1966, possibly converted to TZ-2 by Autodelta (from the link in doug's original thread)

very confusing indeed....
what we see on the pictures is obviously a TZ at the ring in 1965,after the crash the car was either wrecked or rebuilt as a TZ2 around the chassis plate :
cheers marty

Hello Martin,

Thank you for raising the question on the identity of these great cars. The answer seems to be far from simple! I am not an expert but do know a little bit about the TZ-1 and TZ-2. Apparently there were two or three fibreglass TZ-1's. In the book 'Alfa Romeo Zagato SZ - TZ' written by Marcello Minerbi and published in 1985 by La Mille Miglia Editrice, he mentions 750107 and 750108 as being fibreglass bodies by Balzaretti e Modigliani.

Concerning 750109; this book mentions that this was and I quote 'TZ2. Racing car. Ex-owner Autodelta winner of the 12 hours of Sebring (class) and Giro 'd Italia 1965. Present owner: Giuseppe Lucchini, Brescia, Italy' unquote. Remember this was in 1985.

The late Ben Hendriks wrote an article on the TZ in our Dutch clubmagazine 'Het Klaverblaadje' in the 90's. I translated his Dutch piece on 750109 in English. He said and I quote the translated text 'This TZ-2 was also fitted with a glass fibre TZ-1 body of Balzaretti e Modigliani. With license plate UD-105339, it entered the Sebring race of 1965. This license plate was also used in Le Mans 1965 on a “real” TZ-2 with start number 42, chassis number unknown. Not on the car, not on the license plate, are details of a later date known. The car seems to have disappeared.' unquote.

This is all I know from my sources. There are some experts out there that know a lot more. Maybe they could help us further.

Ciao! Olaf

[tomkatf]

It will take some digging, but if I remember correctly there's a lot of info on TZ's (and their modern knockoffs...;-) ) here:

Alfa BB

Lots of fun...!

Best,
Tom

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by RJE
I'm glad somebody has brought up the subject of Alfa Romeo TZ1s as there maybe someone out there who can answer something that has puzzled me for many years.

In 1965 while living outside Toronto I worked on a TZ1 that had been imported into Canada by a company with a name like European Motors or some such. The car was entrusted to Al Pease for whom I worked at the time. Although I am not sure of this I seem to remember that the car was new or had not seen much service. It seemed to appear quite suddenly with little notice. All red and exotic.

Is this the TZ that the late Richard Stafferton had in Toronto in the eighties? I have a photo of it somewhere. Richard offered it to me for sixty grand I recall....

Found the photo-is this the car?



[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img225.imagesha

[Zagato_Olaf]

Originally posted by David Birchall


Is this the TZ that the late Richard Stafferton had in Toronto in the eighties? I have a photo of it somewhere. Richard offered it to me for sixty grand I recall....

Found the photo-is this the car?



[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img225.imagesha

Hello members,

In the book 'Alfa Romeo Zagato SZ - TZ', published by La Mille Miglia Editrice in 1985, the writer Marcello Minerbi quotes one TZ-1 being in Ontario, Canada at that time (1984-1985). It concerns TZ-1 with chassisnumber #097 that was owned by Bob Alexander in Ontario, Canada.

At that time, a lot of TZ's still seemed to be vanished so the photograph could also be of another car. But at least the numberplate hints in the direction of #097.

Ciao, Olaf

[David Birchall]

I recall that this car had obviously been hit or rolled--the cab area was slightly knocked to one side.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by tomkatf
It will take some digging, but if I remember correctly there's a lot of info on TZ's (and their modern knockoffs...;-) ) here:

Alfa BB

Lots of fun...!

Best,
Tom

I wouldn't consider anything that involves Olczyk as "fun".

[David Birchall]

Here is the only photo I can find right now of the only other TZ that I am aware was in Canada during this time period. This shows Fritz Duerenberger in his TZ at Westwood for a Vintage Racing Club of BC event during the late seventies. That's me alongside in the "Lucas-Whitehead Climax Special". Behind Fritz is the Lotus Elite that Innes Ireland wrote about in "All Arms and Elbows".

[RJE]

It could well be the Richard Stafferton car although I seem to recall seeing somewhere that the chassis number of his car was 84 not 97. Also there is a gap of about twenty years between my tale and the times you mention.

Regards.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by dretceterini
I wouldn't consider anything that involves Olczyk as "fun".

Well said...

[Zagato_Olaf]

Originally posted by RJE
It could well be the Richard Stafferton car although I seem to recall seeing somewhere that the chassis number of his car was 84 not 97. Also there is a gap of about twenty years between my tale and the times you mention.

Regards.

The chassisnumber #084 is confirmed by Marcello Minerbi. According to Marcello Minerbi in 'Alfa Romeo Zagato SZ - TZ' this is it's history; quote 'Ex-owner Pas. Present owner: Richard Stafferton, Toronto, Canada.' unquote. The history of the car is not complete.

I also checked the book 'Alfa Romeo TZ' by Philippe Olczyk and others published in 2002. In this book the history, as mentioned by Marcello Minerbi, isn't recalled. That is strange!
The information in 'Alfa Romeo TZ' reads and I quote 'Italy Fiberglass hood. Red Maria Benucci. Sold to Benucci, sold to di Matteo Michele, sold to Paolucci Anna Maria, sold to Palma Antonoi. 1977 : sold. 2002 : Belgium.' unquote. The car in the pictures is silver or grey metallic and it has a Ferrari GTO style 3 slot cooling duct above the air intake.

So this book also leaves a hole in the history, this time from 1977 until 2002. Why? Maybe the authors of the book can explain this.

I checked the website Zagato-Cars set up by Jack Habits. The history of chassisnumber #084 on this website reads as follows:
SOFAR France, Rudy Pas in The Netherlands, Richard Stafferton in Toronto Canada, 1992: Auctioned while restoration needed completion, Gary Hanes in Murphy USA, 1998: Marcel Roks in The Netherlands / Belgium, 2000: in the USA for sale.
There is a picture on this site (www.zagato-cars.com) of a red TZ-1 dated 4-9-'98 with a 3 slot rectangular retractable cooling duct above the air intake.

I will check for more pictures from #084 in my photo archive.

Ciao! Olaf

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hello members,

And here are some pictures of a TZ-1 that is in my archive under #084. I do not recall the source of these pictures but they do come from the interet.
Strange, this car is red in stead of grey/silver metallic and it has a 3 slot rectangular retractable cooling duct above the air intake in stead of a GTO style 3 slot. Hmmm........
Am I making a mistake? Is the car in the pictures not # 084? Or is it and was the car repainted? A lot of other possibilities! Anybody that has any clue?

Ciao, Olaf

[David Birchall]

So Olaf, are the histories wrong or manipulated? The car I posted the photo of was pictured in Richard Stafferton's garage and was offered to my by Richard Stafferton in the mid eighties and as can be seen has no extra openings in the obviously aluminium bonnet.

Can anybody in Ontario check the Licensing records for that plate number or contact VARAC for entry forms from Richard-assuming he raced it? Manfred?

[David Shaw]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
To further complicate the Australian side of it...

Mildren's had both a TZ and a TZ2, IIRC, Max Brunninghausen later owned both of them (at different times).

According to the Classic Cars database; http://www.classicsc...sis/alfatz1.htm , Mildren's TZ2 chassis #112, was bought new in 1966, passed to Roy Crompton then Brunninghausen in November 1967.

Brunninghausen's TZ (#061) was brought pre-loved in 1965 from an Italian team. Exchanged for the TZ2 plus cash with Crompton. No mention of Mildren owning a TZ on the database.

[Zagato_Olaf]

Originally posted by David Birchall
So Olaf, are the histories wrong or manipulated? The car I posted the photo of was pictured in Richard Stafferton's garage and was offered to my by Richard Stafferton in the mid eighties and as can be seen has no extra openings in the obviously aluminium bonnet.

Can anybody in Ontario check the Licensing records for that plate number or contact VARAC for entry forms from Richard-assuming he raced it? Manfred?

Hello David,

Interesting questions.

1. I tend to believe what is said about the history of # 084 on the website www.zagato-cars.com. I do so because that history partly matches up with the history of # 084 as mentioned in 'Alfa Romeo Zagato SZ - TZ' by Marcello Minerbi and with your recollection.

2. In your picture, the car doesn't have the GTO style 3 slot nor the rectangular retractable 3 slot cooling duct. Because you state that this is Richard Staffeton's car in his garage and Marcello Minerbi states that Richard Stafferton used to own # 084, it would suggest that your picture was taken prior to the restoration. As you said it was offered to you in the mid eighties. Is that when you got the picture?
A confirmation of the date of issue of the Ontario numberplates would help establish when this car was registered in Ontario and in what timeframe your picture was taken.

3. A confirmation of where this car with chassisnumber # 084 was restored around 1992 and what it looked like after the restoration (colour and type of cooling duct?) would also help.

4. Why doesn't Philippe Olczyk include the history of # 084 with Rudy Pas/Richard Stafferton in his 'Alfa Romeo TZ' book? That part of the history of # 084 was a fact. The book does mention a history prio to 1977. Is that (part of the) history correct? Does it fit in with the SOFAR France bit? When was the car sold to Richard Stafferton through Rudy Pas? Can we connect all these pieces of the (history) puzzle?

5. I would also be curious as to when and where the pictures of the grey/silver metallic car, discribed as # 084 in the book 'Alfa Romeo TZ' by Phillipe Olczyk were taken. Were they taken in Belgium in 2002? What happened to the car after it was in Belgium? Where did it go? Who is the owner now?

6. If indeed the pictures I placed in this thread are of # 084, it is interesting to find out when and where these pictures were taken. What happened with the car after these pictures where taken? Where did the car go? Who was/is the owner?

If these questions can be answered, we might be able to find out:
- if the red car in the pictures I posted is indeed # 084
- if the red and the silver car are the same, photographed in different timeframes
- if perhaps we are talking about two different cars with the same chassisnumber # 084.

Time will tell!

Ciao, Olaf

[Zagato_Olaf]

Originally posted by David Shaw


According to the Classic Cars database; http://www.classicsc...sis/alfatz1.htm , Mildren's TZ2 chassis #112, was bought new in 1966, passed to Roy Crompton then Brunninghausen in November 1967.

Brunninghausen's TZ (#061) was brought pre-loved in 1965 from an Italian team. Exchanged for the TZ2 plus cash with Crompton. No mention of Mildren owning a TZ on the database.

Hello David,

Yes, you are right. Philippe Olzcyk on his website and in his book doesn't mention Mildren as an owner of # 061. However, Marcello Minerbi in his book 'Alfa Romeo Zagato SZ - TZ' of 1985, does mention Mildren as an owner before Brunninghausen. I don't know the truth! Any suggestions?

Ciao, Olaf

[275 GTB-4]

Quote:
This is very interesting as a long time ago someone said to me that they thought Zagato's workmanship was extremely poor as they stripped down Max's Alfa Zagato to find that it was full of filler and the alloy panels were beaten very roughly....well, this may explain it. I've always admired Zagato's work and when told about Max's car I couldn't believe it.
Unquote

[Ray Bell]

Are you going to let us know who said that, Mick?

That might be relevant...

[David Shaw]

What would help the cause would be a photo of a Mildren TZ1, or a scan of a program entry for one.

[metalshapes]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Quote:
This is very interesting as a long time ago someone said to me that they thought Zagato's workmanship was extremely poor as they stripped down Max's Alfa Zagato to find that it was full of filler and the alloy panels were beaten very roughly....well, this may explain it. I've always admired Zagato's work and when told about Max's car I couldn't believe it.
Unquote

This is a completely different vehicle of course.

But this Thread might interest you anyway.

A Abarth Zagato I'm working on for a Buddy of mine...


http://www.metalmeet...read.php?t=9948

[kevinbartlett]

Originally posted by David Shaw
What would help the cause would be a photo of a Mildren TZ1, or a scan of a program entry for one.

I guess one should buy in here. Alec Mildren had only the TZ11. Doug Chivas and I raced it at the surfers 12 hour.and I campaigned it throughout the country. I can't remember whether Frank G. had a go or not.

[David Shaw]

Thanks for that KB. I had forgotten that there was another reliable way of knowing whether Mildren had a TZ1 or not.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by metalshapes


This is a completely different vehicle of course.

But this Thread might interest you anyway.

A Abarth Zagato I'm working on for a Buddy of mine...


http://www.metalmeet...read.php?t=9948

Hello Metalshapes....is there a better way you can post this link...(people have to be signed up)

I think you need to log out, do a search for the thread, then post that link

[metalshapes]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


Hello Metalshapes....is there a better way you can post this link...(people have to be signed up)

I think you need to log out, do a search for the thread, then post that link

Sorry, I did not realise that site was set up that way...

I just logged out to post a new link, but when I'm logged out I cant see it either.

[Martin Roessler]

hello there,
thanks everybody for your contributions so far.i didn't even realise that the bodywork was fiberglas....:-)
very interesting topic....
cheers marty

[Zagato_Olaf]

Originally posted by Zagato_Olaf
Hello members,

And here are some pictures of a TZ-1 that is in my archive under #084. I do not recall the source of these pictures but they do come from the interet.
Strange, this car is red in stead of grey/silver metallic and it has a 3 slot rectangular retractable cooling duct above the air intake in stead of a GTO style 3 slot. Hmmm........
Am I making a mistake? Is the car in the pictures not # 084? Or is it and was the car repainted? A lot of other possibilities! Anybody that has any clue?

Ciao, Olaf

Hello members,

I checked the source of the pictures. They are from the website www.mmc-paris.com. Chassisnumber #084 was for sale at this website in 2006. The text at this website says and I quote 'Commentaires : Chassis nr AR*750084 Motor nr AR 0511*00070 Year : 16 Jan.1965 Car assembled by Autodelta in Udine for Alfa Romeo, Invoice nr 65, dated April 2nd,1965 Street version, did not race in the past Has special bigger water radiator type Tz2 Was tuned (set up, gear box, differential, brakes, fitted with another motor) to be raced in Le Mans Classique 2004, arrived 2nd in class 2004' unquote.

I also found a picture of chassisnumber #084 on the website of Marcel Roks Consultants (www.mroks.com). The car was for sale at this website in 1998. See below.

It seems strange that the car with #084 is red and has the rectangular retractable cooling duct both in 1998 and in 2006 and the car with the same chassisnumber is silver with the GTO style cooling duct in the pictures of Philippe Olczyk in 2002. That is the year that is mentioned under the picture in the 'Olczyk' book.

Ciao, Olaf

http://tinypic.com/u...5Kn97OpuSMiSA==

[David Birchall]

I decided to try to find more History on Richard Stafferton's car which I believe was #084. I have received the following two responses from friends of Richards:

Hi David,

I don’t recall if I ever met you in any of my trips to BC to visit Jack Hawkes and the gang, but I do remember your name.

Greg has passed on your enquiry concerning Richard’s TZ. Richard and I spent much time together in the 25 yrs. before his passing, mostly related to car events. I was an executor of his estate. I bought his SZ when he bought the TZ and went with him to pick up the TZ at Peter Magnussen’s in Falls Village in late summer 1978. He bought it from Rudy Pas in Holland but I don’t recall it’s history before that. Arno Flach in Switzerland will likely recall more and I could enquire if you wish. In about June 1985 Richard sold his car to Peter Crutch in England, who has also since passed away. I would have to dig around a bit to find out the number of Richard’s car, but your photo is his car complete with Ont. License and #84.

Bob Alexander lived in London Ont. the last I heard and still had his TZ (in pieces). I spoke to Al Pease recently but about another car. I didn’t know he had a TZ.

Let me know if I can help further.

Regards,

Oliver Collins,

Toronto.

AND:

Thanks Oliver.



I waited for Oliver’s reply as I knew his answer would be more complete than any I could come up with. It was always my understanding that the personal plate ZAG084 on Richard’s car and as in your photo was chosen to match the chassis number. It is my understanding that there were at one time three TZ’s in Canada – Richard’s 084, Fritz Duerenberger’s 105 and Bob Alexander’s unassembled collection of parts. I think only Bob’s car is still in the country. I’m surprised to learn that there was another, as campaigned by Al Pease, and would love to see a period photo of it in action.



Yours in Alfas,

JWP



No one in the Toronto Alfa club seems to be aware of a TZ race by Al Pease. Richard Stafferton's car seems to have been unquestionably #84 photographed by me in the mid eighties.

Over to you Olaf..

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hello Stuart, David and other members,

David thank you for finding out more about the 'Richard Stafferton' TZ-1. Stuart thank you for your remark!

So this is what we have pieced together from the information you all supplied and info that came from the books.

- SOFAR, France (according to Marcello Minerbi)

- Benucci (Maria), Italy?
- di Matteo (Michele), Italy?
- Paolucci (Anna Maria), Italy?
- Palma (Antonio), Italy?, 1977?

- Rudy Pas, Holland
- Peter Magnussen, Falls Village, Canada(?), ? - 1978
- Richard Stafferton, Toronto, Canada, 1978 - 1985, a picture of the red car with Ontario plate ZAG 084
- Peter Crutch, United Kingdom, 1985 - ?

- Auctioned while restoration needed completion, 1992 (according to Jack Habits/www.zagato-cars.com)

- Gary Hanes, Murphy, USA (according to Jack Habits/www.zagato-cars.com)

- Marcel Roks Consultants, Holland, 1998, a picture of the red car with the date 4-9-98

- Belgium, 2002, picture of the silver car

- MMC, Paris, France, 2006, pictures of the red car and a reference to the Le Mans Classic in 2004

Is there somebody who knows where this car with chassisnumber # 084 was restored between 1985 and 1992 and what it looked like during and after the restoration (colour and type of cooling duct)? Maybe a picture from the auction in 1992?
And are there members who can shed light on the gaps in the history and help fill them in?

Ciao and thanks in advance! Olaf

[Pils1989]

Took a picture of a TZ1 at LM Classic 2004 (don't know if it's helpful or not)

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by kevinbartlett
I guess one should buy in here. Alec Mildren had only the TZ11. Doug Chivas and I raced it at the surfers 12 hour.and I campaigned it throughout the country. I can't remember whether Frank G. had a go or not.

Thanks for correcting me, KB... I guess I should have checked back through my magazines...

I won't check this one, either, but I'm sure Frank never raced it. I remember you once took a trip through the rough at Sandown in it, and Doug did a good job in it at Surfers IIRC. This was the beginning of a long association between Alec and Doug.

The following year he won the NSW Trials (Rally) Championship in a Giulia and he was co-driver with Max Stewart at Bathurst. I'm sure he backed up a couple of times to co-drive with you in the GTVs at Bathurst as well, even though he only ran the Alfa in rallies for one year. He was in a Valiant Pacer the following year.

No mean pedaler was Doug...

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hello Antoine,

Thank you for posting the picture! This could be #084. But it could also be another car if more TZ-1's took part. To be sure, we have to know how many TZ-1's did race in 2004. Do you know that, Antoine?

I tried finding out through Google, if the chassisnumber #084 was mentioned in the results of the Le Mans Classic 2004, combined with a picture. I couldn't find any.

Ciao, Olaf

[Pils1989]

Originally posted by Zagato_Olaf
Hello Antoine,

Thank you for posting the picture! This could be #084. But it could also be another car if more TZ-1's took part. To be sure, we have to know how many TZ-1's did race in 2004. Do you know that, Antoine?

I tried finding out through Google, if the chassisnumber #084 was mentioned in the results of the Le Mans Classic 2004, combined with a picture. I couldn't find any.

Ciao, Olaf

I had bought a program then but I haven't seen it since in my stuff.
I found a picture of another car at the same event (sorry.)


EDIT I've found the results:
http://www.lemanscla...ts_Plateau4.pdf

The entry list with out the numbers:
http://www.lemanscla...2004/index.html
Go to the menu "sur la grille" and click "au depart"

Another EDIT:
Paul Grant might now what happened to the silver TZ as you can see him with the car in the background in this article about when his garage went in flames witn several cars included:
http://www.automag.b...8&id_forum=1499
His business's webpage with contact info:
http://vdvgrant.be/
He has another TZ for sale.

[scags]

Is there somebody who knows where this car with chassisnumber # 084 was restored between 1985 and 1992 and what it looked like during and after the restoration (colour and type of cooling duct)? Maybe a picture from the auction in 1992?
And are there members who can shed light on the gaps in the history and help fill them in?

Ciao and thanks in advance! Olaf [/B][/QUOTE]

[scags]

sorry about that. You can contact Kieth Martin, at Sports car market magazine, and get almost any auction result from the last few decades.

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hello Antoine & scags and other members,

Thanks for the picture and the information!

I will be gone for a short visit of Tuscany and the start of the Mille Miglia. After that,
I'll pick up the story with all you people whom have been helpfull sofar. Thanks for that!

Ciao! Olaf

[Pils1989]

Originally posted by Zagato_Olaf
Hello Antoine & scags and other members,

Thanks for the picture and the information!

I will be gone as of tomorrow to Italy, to visit Tuscany and the start of the Mille Miglia.

Somewhere around Monday the 19th of May, I'll pick up the story with all you people whom have been helpfull sofar. Thanks for that!

Ciao! Olaf

You are welcome.

I suppose I should add a disclaimer that I have no business with the people mentioned in my last post or this thread. Those TZs are surely "hot potatoes" from what i've read on the Alfa BB.

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hello Antoine,

Thank you for the remark. I sent you a private message.

Ciao! Olaf

[richardspringett]

Hi all

I apologize as I am about to continue the hijack of this thread to discuss TZ #084

I knew Peter Crutch and his TZ from about 1990, subsequent to purchase and restoration but no recollection of chassis number.

Peter's car appears in the 1992 Osprey Colour Classics book of Alfa Romeos - ISBN 1 85532 646 9 -on the cover and on pages 76 and 77. Restored in red, reg number 481 TZ with Peter's team Scuderia Britalia sticker, 3 rectangular adjustable air intakes, bonnet straps rather than clips. A couple of identifying features, the head light plexi glass covers are large and the dashboard seems to lack the passenger grab rail. The book's other merit is a 1900 Super Sprint featuring our beagle - Himiko!

Most of these features seem to fit Richard Stafferton's TZ and the mmc.-paris car. It is interesting to note that the mmc car was then fitted with a smaller race steering wheel rather than Peter's standard one, part of the race prep no doubt.

Most or all of Peter's cars were looked after by a race shop in West London but all were gone by 1995/8.

Richard

[Zagato_Olaf]

Originally posted by richardspringett
Hi all

I apologize as I am about to continue the hijack of this thread to discuss TZ #084

I knew Peter Crutch and his TZ from about 1990, subsequent to purchase and restoration but no recollection of chassis number.

Peter's car appears in the 1992 Osprey Colour Classics book of Alfa Romeos - ISBN 1 85532 646 9 -on the cover and on pages 76 and 77. Restored in red, reg number 481 TZ with Peter's team Scuderia Britalia sticker, 3 rectangular adjustable air intakes, bonnet straps rather than clips. A couple of identifying features, the head light plexi glass covers are large and the dashboard seems to lack the passenger grab rail. The book's other merit is a 1900 Super Sprint featuring our beagle - Himiko!

Most of these features seem to fit Richard Stafferton's TZ and the mmc.-paris car. It is interesting to note that the mmc car was then fitted with a smaller race steering wheel rather than Peter's standard one, part of the race prep no doubt.

Most or all of Peter's cars were looked after by a race shop in West London but all were gone by 1995/8.

Richard

Hello Richard,

Thank you very much for your reply! This is most helpfull! Also the features you mention that can identify the car. I checked my copy of 'Alfa Romeo Legends' and saw the pictures of the car. We know that #084 went to Peter Crutch after Richard Stafferton. In the pictures the car looks completely restored. We know that the car appeared at an auction in 1992 while 'restoration needing completion'.

I have two questions;

Do you know when Peter sold the car? If so, do you know who the new owner was?

Do you know when the 'Alfa Romeo Legends' pictures were taken? Before or after the auction in which the car was offered for sale?

Ciao, Olaf
(I'll be off to have a look at the Mille Miglia so it could take a while for me to answer)

[richardspringett]

Hi Olaf

My best guess at the date is Spring/Summer 1991. In 1990 I was mostly in Japan and the dog in quarantine and AR Legends was first published in 1992.

I just happened to be around at the time, I seem to recall that the TZ shoot had happened earlier that day - at another location - and we had to hang about whilst the 1900 Ghia was delivered. The location was a semi abandoned industrial park in West London. I'm sure David Sparrow, the photographer would remember exactly.

A number of Peter Crutch's other Alfas feature in the book, Giulietta Sprint lightweight, Junior Z, modern SZ, all bearing the Scuderia Britalia sticker. I also believe the red Giulietta SZ was Peter's though no sticker.

Not how this fully restored car fits into needing 'completion of restoration' by 1992.

Richard

[MGAdams]

Originally posted by David Birchall
.... I’m surprised to learn that there was another, as campaigned by Al Pease, and would love to see a period photo of it in action.

I think this photo came courtesy of a CMSHG member



Mike Adams

[Zagato_Olaf]

Originally posted by richardspringett
Hi Olaf

My best guess at the date is Spring/Summer 1991. In 1990 I was mostly in Japan and the dog in quarantine and AR Legends was first published in 1992.

I just happened to be around at the time, I seem to recall that the TZ shoot had happened earlier that day - at another location - and we had to hang about whilst the 1900 Ghia was delivered. The location was a semi abandoned industrial park in West London. I'm sure David Sparrow, the photographer would remember exactly.

A number of Peter Crutch's other Alfas feature in the book, Giulietta Sprint lightweight, Junior Z, modern SZ, all bearing the Scuderia Britalia sticker. I also believe the red Giulietta SZ was Peter's though no sticker.

Not how this fully restored car fits into needing 'completion of restoration' by 1992.

Richard

Hello Richard,

Thank you for your response and your information!
I got back from Italy yesterday so that is the reason
why I didn't react to your post earlier. Yes, the line
'needing completion of restoration' still puzzles me.
I'll have to check with Keith Martin for that.
Because we are still hijacking the thread I will start
a new one were we can go on researching #084.

Ciao & regards, Olaf