110 replies to this topic

[OfficeLinebacker]

Has either of these technologies ever been used in F1, or any other formulae for that matter?

[ray b]

I donot think methanol is legal post the gas only rules
and as the primary use is to prevent knock
the use of F-1 custom gas brews made it unneeded back in the turbo era

so other then indy where they ran on pure meth
and some drag racers who use it to keep ragged edge motors from blowing up

btw I met Mr Wang the guy who developed meth/water injection for the P-51 mustangs
and sold kits to use on US V8s in the early days of low/no lead gas here

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by ray b
I donot think methanol is legal post the gas only rules
and as the primary use is to prevent knock
the use of F-1 custom gas brews made it unneeded back in the turbo era

so other then indy where they ran on pure meth
and some drag racers who use it to keep ragged edge motors from blowing up

btw I met Mr Wang the guy who developed meth/water injection for the P-51 mustangs
and sold kits to use on US V8s in the early days of low/no lead gas here

so no H2O injection as a p2p button a la the mustangs?

[Bill Sherwood]

Quick question sorta on-topic.

Downstream of a turbo, what would the difference in air temperature be if you injected the water/meth ahead of the compressor compared to after the compressor?
Assume two states, one with the compressor outlet air temp below 100° and the other above 100°.

[bettonracing]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
Quick question sorta on-topic.

Downstream of a turbo, what would the difference in air temperature be if you injected the water/meth ahead of the compressor compared to after the compressor?
Assume two states, one with the compressor outlet air temp below 100° and the other above 100°.

I can't answer Your question but I do know of 2 pre-compressor meth injection applications where the compressor blades were visibly eroded within a 3month period (~2 gallons/ week usage; 50% meth/water mix).

Edit: The applications had pre-compressor setups due to installation convenience.

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

[J. Edlund]

Water injection saw som use in the early eighies, both separate and as an emulsion with the fuel. Use as an emulsion was considered to get a better and more accurate mixing required for maximum power.

Methanol is mainly added as an anti-freeze, the cooling (anti-detonant) properties of water is better.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by J. Edlund
Water injection saw som use in the early eighies, both separate and as an emulsion with the fuel. Use as an emulsion was considered to get a better and more accurate mixing required for maximum power.

Methanol is mainly added as an anti-freeze, the cooling (anti-detonant) properties of water is better.

I think maybe it didn't hurt that finely atomized methanol also cools the intake charge considerably.

And good call on the pre-turbine systems causing severe pitting on the rotors.

[TDIMeister]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
Downstream of a turbo, what would the difference in air temperature be if you injected the water/meth ahead of the compressor compared to after the compressor?
Assume two states, one with the compressor outlet air temp below 100° and the other above 100°.

http://www.not2fast....urbo_calc.shtml

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker




And good call on the pre-turbine systems causing severe pitting on the rotors.

I don't know the ins and outs of turbine material but I do know after running historic racing bikes for many years that the methanol myths didn't apply to me. Not only did I not drain the fuel tanks I even gave up draining the carbs (which to begin with I did after every race using a seperate tank of petrol until the bike died from over rich state). Even after months the bikes would start within a few kicks and never did I pit any bearing, main or big end or other or clump up the tank, lines or carbs - alloy and steel tanks.

[OfficeLinebacker]

The turbines get pitted because of the intense speed. This is due to any droplets of any kind--water, methanol, transmission fluid, doesn't matter.

It's similar to cavitation erosion. Any mass that hits the turbine blade at speed is going to create quite an impact.

[Bill Sherwood]

I'm about to start flying turboprops again - given up the international life on 747's - and the Metroliner I'll be in uses Garrett TPE-331's. They have water/meth injection ahead of the inlet compressor and I'll take a photo of the blades to show you how eroded they get.
Though yes, a lot of that is from rain induction as well.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
I'm about to start flying turboprops again - given up the international life on 747's - and the Metroliner I'll be in uses Garrett TPE-331's. They have water/meth injection ahead of the inlet compressor and I'll take a photo of the blades to show you how eroded they get.
Though yes, a lot of that is from rain induction as well.

Congratulations on your new path. I'd love to see those pics. Thanks.

[Bill Sherwood]

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker


Congratulations on your new path. I'd love to see those pics. Thanks.

It's to give me more time at home - I need to look after my father & dog - can't do that flying rubber dog **** outa Hong Kong, as they say.

I've got a couple of thousand hours in the Metro 2's, but that was all single-pilot stuff so I couldn't use a camera on takeoff. I'll be getting the First Officer to use my camera to take a photo of the inlet of the Garrett with the CAWI on, apparently it's pretty spectacular.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood


It's to give me more time at home - I need to look after my father & dog - can't do that flying rubber dog **** outa Hong Kong, as they say.

I've got a couple of thousand hours in the Metro 2's, but that was all single-pilot stuff so I couldn't use a camera on takeoff. I'll be getting the First Officer to use my camera to take a photo of the inlet of the Garrett with the CAWI on, apparently it's pretty spectacular.

nice!

[dosco]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
Garrett TPE-331's.

Now Honeywell TPE engines. I worked at the Phoenix Engines and Systems factory for a while, where those engines were made. Cool place.

Did you know that the APU in the newer 747s and Airbus' were derived from the TPE core engine?

[Bill Sherwood]

Originally posted by dosco


Now Honeywell TPE engines. I worked at the Phoenix Engines and Systems factory for a while, where those engines were made. Cool place.

Did you know that the APU in the newer 747s and Airbus' were derived from the TPE core engine?

I thought they would have come from the TFE series ... ?
The TPE's are pretty small.

[J. Edlund]

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker


I think maybe it didn't hurt that finely atomized methanol also cools the intake charge considerably.

And good call on the pre-turbine systems causing severe pitting on the rotors.

If we just want to cool the intake charge on a supercharged engine we can use an intercooler instead, unless that isn't allowed or can't be used for some reason. Charge cooling is also most significant above the boiling point of water and/or methanol, and charge tempertures are generally not that high on naturally aspiranted engines. Charge cooling with methanol probably won't offer much more than a few percent more power.

The cooling capacity of methanol is also quite a bit less than that of water.

The most significant effect of water injection is that knock is supressed while the temperature of internal engine components are reduced.

Originally posted by cheapracer


I don't know the ins and outs of turbine material but I do know after running historic racing bikes for many years that the methanol myths didn't apply to me. Not only did I not drain the fuel tanks I even gave up draining the carbs (which to begin with I did after every race using a seperate tank of petrol until the bike died from over rich state). Even after months the bikes would start within a few kicks and never did I pit any bearing, main or big end or other or clump up the tank, lines or carbs - alloy and steel tanks.

Then you must have been very lucky considering that methanol that comes into contact with aluminum forms aluminumhydroxide; a "gel" that easily clogs fuel filters, nozzles and other parts of the fuel system. Since metanol also conduct electricity, galvanic and electrolytic corrosion (with electric fuel pumps or fuel level meters) also tend to be problematic.

Compressorwheels tend to made of aluminum which is easly eroded by small fluid droplets. But even titanium or stainless steel compressors will have difficulties with fluid droplets.

[dosco]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood


I thought they would have come from the TFE series ... ?
The TPE's are pretty small.

No. The APUs were designated "331" indicating TPE lineage.

Also, remember that the APU (for the most part) only has to provide power while the jet is on the ground. The APU for the B737 is teensy tiny.

[dosco]

Originally posted by J. Edlund
Compressorwheels tend to made of aluminum which is easly eroded by small fluid droplets. But even titanium or stainless steel compressors will have difficulties with fluid droplets.

Compressor wheels for what? Cars?

TPE compressor wheels are machined from forged titanium.

[OfficeLinebacker]

I think he means turbos.

Oh you want to know why I asked the original question? OK, sure, I'll tell you.

I have a Camry that takes 89 octane and in my area there is 87, 91, and 93. I don't wish to overpay for fuel and I am not going to pump half tanks to get 89.

Anyway I have experimented with using windshield washer fluid injection, albeit very briefly, as my intake and engine are made of aluminum.

You might know it as "aluminium." Call it what you will, it's the element Al in the periodic table.

Even more briefly, I considered a separate water tank and a venturi prior to the throttle body and/or wrapping copper water lines around the exhaust. It's all quite exhausting so I am concentrating on other things.

[Bill Sherwood]

Originally posted by dosco


No. The APUs were designated "331" indicating TPE lineage.

Also, remember that the APU (for the most part) only has to provide power while the jet is on the ground. The APU for the B737 is teensy tiny.

I never flew the 737, only the 747 and they are much larger. They not only provide electrical power but huge volumes of 40psi air - hence me wondering if the TPE series is big enough for that.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
I think he means turbos.



I have a Camry that takes 89 octane and in my area there is 87, 91, and 93. I don't wish to overpay for fuel and I am not going to pump half tanks to get 89.

Where do you live and what octane rating system is in effect there?

Chances are that unless you are towing an Airstream, climbing Mt. Washington or going for a class record at Bonneville, you can run the 87 fairly safely.

You can put more wear and tear on the engine with water/methanol injection than with a little spark knock. Too much, like on closed-throttle overrrun, and you can scuff the rings and wash down the cylinder walls. That's one of the reasons there are no production cars that use it.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by McGuire


Where do you live and what octane rating system is in effect there?

Chances are that unless you are towing an Airstream, climbing Mt. Washington or going for a class record at Bonneville, you can run the 87 fairly safely.

You can put more wear and tear on the engine with water/methanol injection than with a little spark knock. Too much, like on closed-throttle overrrun, and you can scuff the rings and wash down the cylinder walls. That's one of the reasons there are no production cars that use it.

McGuire is correct.

So in the long run, is it more efficient to create and run a custom water injection kit or just deal with the reduced performance of 87 octane?

[dosco]

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
So in the long run, is it more efficient to create and run a custom water injection kit or just deal with the reduced performance of 87 octane?

What "performance reduction" are you referring to?

[dosco]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
They not only provide electrical power but huge volumes of 40psi air - hence me wondering if the TPE series is big enough for that.

The APU has 3 accessories attached to the engine:

Generator
Hydraulic pump
"Customer" air compressor

If you've seen an APU, you will note the "Customer" air compressor is rather large. The APU doesn't bleed air from its core to start the main engines.

From their site: http://www.honeywell...FB3D0FB6D&sel=4

(light on specifics, but you get the idea. They do call the customer air "bleed air," however it isn't bled from the core's compressor)

[Bill Sherwood]

Originally posted by dosco


The APU has 3 accessories attached to the engine:

Generator
Hydraulic pump
"Customer" air compressor

If you've seen an APU, you will note the "Customer" air compressor is rather large. The APU doesn't bleed air from its core to start the main engines.

From their site: http://www.honeywell...FB3D0FB6D&sel=4

(light on specifics, but you get the idea. They do call the customer air "bleed air," however it isn't bled from the core's compressor)

I only know the 747 APU, and they have two 90KVA generators (the same as on each engine, but with better cooling so they can output more power), no hydraulic pump, and a big first-stage compressor.
I'll ask on Pprune.net and see what it actually is.

[Bill Sherwood]

Here's what they are ->

Classic - GTCP660-4 (Garrett/Honeywell).

B747-400 - Pratt & Whitney PW901A (twin 90KVA generators).

A380 - PW980 (derivative of the PW901A)


How big are they and what are they derived from?

[OfficeLinebacker]

You guys know your aviation engines.

So anyone have any insight as to water injection on NA daily drivers?

[McGuire]

I don't much care for it though I have to admit my objection is mainly aesthetic. Seems like a crutch. I used it quite a bit on street cars back in the bad old days when the octane went away but there were still plenty of engines around with ridiculous CRs.

Guy I know builds 1800+ hp BBC "street engines" (har) with great giant centrifugal superchargers (Procharger F1R) blowing through a single Holley 4500 on 92 pump gas. Gets away with it by running fire-hose volumes of methanol/water injection. Hard to say what the long-term implications are since the engines don't run any distance and are freshened up so frequently anyway.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by dosco


What "performance reduction" are you referring to?

If the vehicle's spark mapping is optimized for 89 R+M/2 and it rattles a bit on 87, the knock sensor will pick it up and the ECM will ratchet the advance back until it goes away, resulting in some decrease in performance and fuel economy.

[dosco]

Originally posted by McGuire
If the vehicle's spark mapping is optimized for 89 R+M/2 and it rattles a bit on 87, the knock sensor will pick it up and the ECM will ratchet the advance back until it goes away, resulting in some decrease in performance and fuel economy.

Thanks for the 'splanation.

How much "performance degradation" are we talking about here?

[dosco]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
Here's what they are ->

Classic - GTCP660-4 (Garrett/Honeywell).

B747-400 - Pratt & Whitney PW901A (twin 90KVA generators).

A380 - PW980 (derivative of the PW901A)


How big are they and what are they derived from?

Bill:
I'll have to dregde around a bit. I worked at the Honeywell (formerly AlliedSignal (formerly Garrett)) plant for a few years, however the GTCP660 was before my time. The Pratt stuff is outside my knowledgebase/experience, but I'll see if I can find anything.

FWIW when I was at the plant, we were selling the 331 based APUs to Boeing (for the 747 and 777) and Airbus (for the A330, A340). There was an extensive product line, but after looking at their website yesterday, it appears they may have eliminated some of their offerings. These newer APUs had the generator, hydraulics and air. I thought the older versions had the same setup, although the Pratt APUs you mentioned ... I don't know.

Like I said, I will see if I can find anything.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by dosco


Thanks for the 'splanation.

How much "performance degradation" are we talking about here?

Not a lot, but probably enough to be measurable by the casual consumer. Otherwise, why not just validate for 87. To be honest I don't really understand an 89 calibration. Either go for 87 or 91.

[Nathan]

Regarding using methanol as an octane booster in a turbo'd car. Would spraying pre-compressor enchance compressor efficiency?

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by Nathan
Regarding using methanol as an octane booster in a turbo'd car. Would spraying pre-compressor enchance compressor efficiency?

I think the erosion of the compressor blades would be a bigger concern. As folks have mentioned, such systems exist, but more for design/implementation efficiency. In applications where the operator is willing to regularly inspect and possibly replace the compressor rotors, it's used. But fluids (compared to gases) are incompressible so I'd think not.

[Nathan]

Well this is a big thing in the world of import tuning and the ideology is you spray it pre-compressor. I won't argue against wear and tear, but I've never seen a report saying it was a big issue in real life use with turbo wheels. Thousands of drag racers use this type of setup.

[Greg Locock]

So, how much more spark advance can you get on 89 than 87? what is the typical curve of torque vs spark?

Voila, dodgy numbers instead of idle speculation

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
So, how much more spark advance can you get on 89 than 87? what is the typical curve of torque vs spark?

Voila, dodgy numbers instead of idle speculation

Depends on where BLD lies relative to MBT and vice versa.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by J. Edlund


Compressorwheels tend to made of aluminum which is easly eroded by small fluid droplets. But even titanium or stainless steel compressors will have difficulties with fluid droplets.

Meh. Between 1962 and 1983, General Motors built oh, around a million vehicles with draw-through carbureted turbocharger systems. The compressor wheels were aluminum.

[J. Edlund]

Originally posted by dosco


Compressor wheels for what? Cars?

TPE compressor wheels are machined from forged titanium.

Compressors for piston engines. A few high pressure ratio compressors are titanium though. I have also heard about racing turbchargers using nickel plated compressorwheel to reduce erosion damage.

But gas turbine compessors tend to be titanium or stainless steel.

[OfficeLinebacker]

This video of a fan blade failure is fun.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

This is what's called a Monte Carlo simulation, because the fan blades are numbered and colored either green or red.

j/k

[Nathan]

Two questions on this droplet damage..

a) do these water droplets damage the valves?

b) how great are the benefits that come from water injection before the turbine?

[gruntguru]

Two questions on this droplet damage..

a) do these water droplets damage the valves?

b) how great are the benefits that come from water injection before the turbine?

a) No
b) Significant increase in octane rating of the air/fuel mix especially on supercharged engines with hot intake. The octane improvement is substantially higher with methanol added (50%) for two reasons. 1. The 50/50 mix has a higher anti-detonant effect than water alone. 2. The quantity injected can be increased substantially before misfire or power loss become a problem. The increase in effective octane rating can be 10 points or more on a supercharged engine but depends on many factors.

[Canuck]

Wouldn't all of those benefits you describe be present irrespective of whether the injection was pre or post turbo compressor?

[cheapracer]

Older thread but for the OP I and a workmate ran tests over a few months (well mostly him, I'm lazy) on a GM 3.8 V6 (Holden Commodore) and my Nissan 3.0 6 and came to the conclusion that the cost of running low octane or high octane came out the same except that the higher octane ran smoother as well. Obviously the high octane is more expensive but so was the distance you can get per litre. No good for a crap motor though where the higher octane won't give an improvement.

Sad thinking of him, he's dead now, another victim of Mt Glorious on a bike (Grunt and Bill will know what I mean).

[gruntguru]

Wouldn't all of those benefits you describe be present irrespective of whether the injection was pre or post turbo compressor?

Yes - although compressor efficiency might be improved if the intercooling effect occurs throughout compression (ie pre).

[Canuck]

Ah.

[cheapracer]

Yes - although compressor efficiency might be improved if the intercooling effect occurs throughout compression (ie pre).

You don't think the density of the fluids will slow the fan down or that it may suffer more heating also from the fan?

[gruntguru]

You don't think the density of the fluids will slow the fan down or that it may suffer more heating also from the fan?

In terms of massflow, the water methanol injection would represent less than 10% increase. I suppose that could mean up to 10% increase in compressor power required although compressing a liquid requires far less work than compressing a gas. On the other hand if evaporation and significant cooling is occurring during the compression process, that will reduce the compression work significantly. That also answers the second part of your question. Heating of the injected liquid also results in cooling of the hot intake air, which is beneficial whether it occurs in the compressor or after it.

[cheapracer]

. That also answers the second part of your question. Heating of the injected liquid also results in cooling of the hot intake air, which is beneficial whether it occurs in the compressor or after it.

What about the scenerio

1/ pre; the impeller and compressor body heats the combined air and fluid medium to say 200 degrees (whatever) but that

2/ aft; the air only medium is heated to 200 but then cooled further by the injected medium downstream?

What am I missing?