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Roger Penske, 'Mr Motorsport'


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#201 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 06:56

I'll go out on a limb and say it's not a Lotus 18...

 

And it's possibly not a Climax.

 

It appears to me to have inboard front suspension, too.



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#202 Roger Clark

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 07:48

It looks like a 21. Didn’t the ex-Brabham car go to Hall?



#203 Catalina Park

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 10:37

Colour photo of what appears to be the same car at...
https://www.f1forgot...om/jim-hall-f1/


Edited by Catalina Park, 20 June 2022 - 10:37.


#204 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 11:04

Okay, that clearly shows the Lotus 21 features, including the inboard front suspension...

 

And it shows the exhausts of a Climax four.



#205 2F-001

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 12:04

In DCN's ''The United States Grand Prix and Grand Prize Races 1908-1977'', Hall's car at the '62 US GP is shown as Lotus 21 / 936 and described as the ex-Brabham machine. (Non-started due to a broken valve guide.)


Edited by 2F-001, 20 June 2022 - 12:05.


#206 Roger Clark

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 14:42

THe web pages linked by Tim Murray in post #198 say that Innes Ireland drove 21/936 - very unlikely, I think!  UDT-Laystall did race a 19 several times in North America that year.

 

As I understand it. Jack Brabham raced the car twice in 1962, at Pau and Aintree, very briefly in both cases.  Doug Nye once told us here that Brabham had completely forgotten he owned a 21.  At the International Trophy he had a shiny new 24 - so new that it had its first run down the runway before practice. Some sources say that Jack had the 21 at Silverstone as a spare.  At some point, the 21 was destroyed in a garage fire before being sold to Jim Hall with a new frame.  That doesn't leave much time to rebuild 936 and ship it to Jim Hall before the Hoosier race.  Is it possible that Hall was driving 935, the 21 that Moss drove down-under early in the year and which was sold to John Mecom?  it would have had a 2.5 engine which would be suitable for this race.



#207 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 16:16

The book Chaparral, by Falconer and Nye (where have I heard that name before :drunk: ) states about Jim Hall: For 1962 he bought a Lotus 21 from .... Jack Brabham.
My history of 936 shows the garage fire before the Lombank Trophy (Snetterton) in April. Raced and retired a little more than a week later in Pau (Easter Monday). Then to Aintree and Silverstone, May 12th (practised only)
From there to end July (Hoosier) seems to be easily possible.

#208 Roger Clark

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 16:50

You're quite right.  Jack Brabham's column in Motor Racing says that the fire was before Snetterton; I thought it was later.  



#209 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 20 June 2022 - 21:58

Kyle Petty interview of Penske on "Coffee with Kyle":

 

https://www.nbcsport...otorsports-wins


Edited by Tom Glowacki, 21 June 2022 - 00:35.


#210 cooper997

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 10:14

The Brabham workshop fire was April 14, 1962 as far as I'm aware. I've noted that April 20th Autosport P&P p547 and July 62 Sports Car Graphic p10 should have a little bit of info.

 

 

Stephen



#211 tampaguy

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 19:58

To clarify ! From Willem, The Lotus Climax that Jim Hall raced in the Hoosier GP at IRP in late July 62 was a 2.5 litter Climax engined Lotus 18 with updated 21 bodywork, So a Lotus 18/21. Chassis # was 371, a former Jimmy Clark car. Hall raced the same car earlier, at Bossier City in April 62. He did not race the former Brabham car (21/936) until late in the 1962 season.



#212 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 June 2022 - 22:10

That car certainly looks like a 21- we can see that it has inboard front suspension and the body shape in front of the screen is different from an 18/21. Could it be a different race?



#213 cooper997

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 01:19

Roger and his Cooper T53-based Zerex Special heading for a win at November 11th, 1962 Puerto Rico GP

 

1963-TMS-Penske-Zerex-TNF.jpg

 

 

Stephen



#214 Roger Clark

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 08:46

Did the Zerex in its original form break any rules?



#215 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 11:34

I'm guessing that the only potential rule it might have broken would have related to the seating arrangements...

 

From memory, there was a clarification of that rule which led to it being outlawed. This was briefly discussed in the video linked by Tom.



#216 amerikalei

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 12:56

That T53/Zerex special went on to become the first McLaren USRRC car.  Or am I mistaken about that?



#217 RA Historian

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 15:38

That T53/Zerex special went on to become the first McLaren USRRC car.  Or am I mistaken about that?

Partially. Bruce bought the car from Mecom and did a thorough reconditioning of it. Even redid the frame. Ran two races in the UK with the Climax, then substituted an Oldsmobile V-8. Won Mosport Players 200 and Brands Hatch Guards Trophy race with it. He never drove it in any USRRC race.



#218 SKL

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Posted 22 June 2022 - 17:10

The Captain is one of a kind.  Can't imagine anyone replacing him...

 

(will never forget seeing him and Mark for the first time in person at the USRRC race at RA in '68.   And then literally bumping into him as he stood behind me checking into the American Club many years later, and being starstruck!)

 

Great interview with Kyle Petty above...  what a class act.



#219 BoDarvelle

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 00:34

Roger and his Cooper T53-based Zerex Special heading for a win at November 11th, 1962 Puerto Rico GP

 

1963-TMS-Penske-Zerex-TNF.jpg

 

 

Stephen

 

Appears Mickey Thompson may have been heavily influenced by this car for his '64 Indy effort that didn't go well.

 

550-thompson-macdonald.jpg


Edited by BoDarvelle, 23 June 2022 - 00:38.


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#220 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 03:10

Who will write the authoritative Penske biography?



#221 E1pix

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 04:02

Kyle Petty interview of Penske on "Coffee with Kyle":
 
https://www.nbcsport...otorsports-wins

Can’t decide who I love more, but love them both I do.

#222 SKL

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 17:11

Just saw a story this AM I think at racer.com saying the Zerex special just made it back on British soil from South America in time for Goodwood.  Howden Ganley, who was with McLaren at the time inspected it and says it's the real thing...  kind of surprised Penske hasn't gotten it back for his collection.

 

BTW,  last time I was at the Penske Musuem in Scottsdale there was a "beast" engine on display next to the proper indycar.

 

 

(I too like Kyle Petty, and his family...)


Edited by SKL, 23 June 2022 - 17:12.


#223 D28

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 18:32

Just saw a story this AM I think at racer.com saying the Zerex special just made it back on British soil from South America in time for Goodwood. Howden Ganley, who was with McLaren at the time inspected it and says it's the real thing... kind of surprised Penske hasn't gotten it back for his collection.

The link to the article is here:
https://racer.com/20...on-at-goodwood/

I believe this is the actual Cooper-Olds, much modified from the Zerex Special purchased by Bruce McLaren.

Which brings to question, what is the term for this car, featured a couple of years ago in several magazines including MotorSport. It was discussed here at the time.


https://www.motorspo...d-zerex-special

#224 10kDA

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 21:45


Which brings to question, what is the term for this car, featured a couple of years ago in several magazines including MotorSport. It was discussed here at the time.


https://www.motorspo...d-zerex-special


Being polite, "Close but no cigar". Being direct, "Bogus".

#225 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 June 2022 - 12:08

Just saw a story this AM I think at racer.com saying the Zerex special just made it back on British soil from South America in time for Goodwood.  Howden Ganley, who was with McLaren at the time inspected it and says it's the real thing...  kind of surprised Penske hasn't gotten it back for his collection.

 

BTW,  last time I was at the Penske Musuem in Scottsdale there was a "beast" engine on display next to the proper indycar.

 

 

 

 

 

PC23-007, #31 in 1994 at Indy has been at the Indy Museum on at least 1 occasion with a `beast` next to it.   (Penske Expo)  



#226 tampaguy

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Posted 24 June 2022 - 15:26

From Willem, as mentioned by 10KDA already the “Zerex” in the Motor Sport article is a complete replica. As for the real one,which came from Venezuela, the statement “ being remarkable original “ in spite of all the drooling on the receiving end in the UK. When last raced in (Nassau and the South West) and by David Morgan of Tulsa, Oklahoma, and subsequently by its Venezuelan owner, the car featured a snowplow nose that must have been inspired by the early Chaparrals. The nose section shown in the photo does not resemble anything original to the car.

#227 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 24 June 2022 - 15:41

Just saw a story this AM I think at racer.com saying the Zerex special just made it back on British soil from South America in time for Goodwood.  Howden Ganley, who was with McLaren at the time inspected it and says it's the real thing...  kind of surprised Penske hasn't gotten it back for his collection.

 

 

 

I was in on a chat with Roger some years ago about the "Venezuela" car. Seemed like the people selling it thought Roger would want to buy it for silly money, presumably because he's Roger Penske and could afford whatever number they dreamed up. He declined the opportunity.



#228 RA Historian

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Posted 24 June 2022 - 15:53

"Which brings to question, what is the term for this car, featured a couple of years ago in several magazines including

MotorSport. It was discussed here at the time."

 

 

The term that I would charitably use is that that car is a copy. The fact that the owner apparently claims that it is the real car calls for stronger terminology, which I will refrain from using at this time.


Edited by RA Historian, 24 June 2022 - 15:53.


#229 Michael Oliver

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Posted 01 July 2022 - 11:36

To clarify ! From Willem, The Lotus Climax that Jim Hall raced in the Hoosier GP at IRP in late July 62 was a 2.5 litter Climax engined Lotus 18 with updated 21 bodywork, So a Lotus 18/21. Chassis # was 371, a former Jimmy Clark car. Hall raced the same car earlier, at Bossier City in April 62. He did not race the former Brabham car (21/936) until late in the 1962 season.

 

Just to return briefly to the topic of the 1962 Hoosier Grand Prix, I hate to disagree with Willem as I have huge respect for his tremendous knowledge on so many aspects of racing history but in this case he is mistaken.

 

The #66 Jim Hall Lotus in the grid photo taken at the 1962 Hoosier Grand Prix is a Lotus 21, chassis 936. It has inboard front suspension (an 18/21 would have visible coil springs/dampers outboard), the upper rear radius rod is located on the centre of the upright, in line with the drive-shaft as per a Lotus 21 (photos of Hall's 18/21 show it had the standard 18 rear suspension, with the upper rear radius rod mounted on the top of the upright), it has a small, low (derisively so, when you consider Hall's height!) rollover hoop, whereas his 18/21 had a larger, taller, more triangulated hoop, plus it has an air scoop on the upper body forward of the driver and a flick-up on the screen surround, both of which are visible in photos of the same car when it appeared in Hall's hands at the 1962 Mexican Grand Prix. Finally, the access panel on the front of the screen surround, which is such a distinctive identifier of an 18/21 in almost any photo you see, is not visible.

 

There is a good report of the 1962 Hoosier Grand Prix in Competition Press 11th August 1962 p1 & p3, which correctly identifies Hall's Lotus as a 21. There are two further photos of Hall’s Hoosier Grand Prix car in the Indianapolis Star’s Sports section front page, Sunday 29th July 1962, alongside pole-sitter Hap Sharp’s Cooper, plus the Indianapolis Star, Monday 30th July 1962 p16, showing Hall’s 21 following Penske’s Cooper.

 

Sports Car Graphic's report of the Pipeline 200 held on 1st April 1962 at Hilltop Raceway in its July edition (p53) confirms, as Willem has said, that Hall raced his 18/21 chassis number 371 at that meeting ("Jim Hall had brought the Watkins Glen Lotus out of retirement for the race..."). He managed to get through two sets of ring and pinions (what we'd call crown wheel and pinions, I think?) and only completed one lap of the race. At this point, Lotus 21-936 was still owned by Jack Brabham, who last drove it as a T-car in practice for the International Trophy at Silverstone on 12th May.

 

Getting back to the subject of this thread, Roger Penske also drove his Cooper in the 1962 Hilltop Raceway event, the SCG report calling it a "fire-engine red Cooper IC Formula car" and reporting that he qualified third fastest behind Gurney in the Arciero 18-903 and eventually went on to finish second in the two-heat race. With Lloyd Ruby in J Frank Harrison’s Lotus 18-907 and Hall’s 18-371 that made three former F1 Lotus 18s in the field - not bad for a relatively inconsequential race in Louisiana!

 

Incidentally, Penske drove Mecom’s Lotus 21 chassis 935 at the 1963 Hoosier Grand Prix, fitted with a four-cylinder Climax FPF but was a DNF. The race report in Competition Press 17th August 1963 p1 & p3 this time erroneously identifies Penske’s car as a Lotus 24 but photos show it to be a 21.

 



#230 tampaguy

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Posted 01 July 2022 - 15:01

From Willem 

Kudos to Mike Oliver for his detailed analysis of the Jim Hall Lotus at IRP in 1962. So, it was a model 21 in that event after all. Thanks for updating my (and former Hall mechanic Frank Lance’s ) recollections.



#231 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 July 2022 - 21:52

Even though he might make a rare error, it's great to know that Willem is still in touch with this forum and contributing to it through others...

 

Thanks to both he and tampaguy.



#232 cooper997

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Posted 23 April 2023 - 07:32

Wonderful photo borrowed from Jan 63 SCG Los Angeles Times GP, Riverside report.

 

The caption for this mentions moving the seat 1/2 an inch to make it offset

1962-Riverside-LA-Times-Penske-Zerex-spl

General credit for the report photos go to Pat Brollier, Bob D'Olivo & Randy Holt.

 

 

Stephen



#233 emunoz

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Posted 13 August 2023 - 04:31

Good evening to all,

 

Please check this link of the Venezuelan Forum "Pasion a la Velocidad y Motores" with information of the Zerex Special:

 

http://www.pasionala...ic.php?f=27&t=5

 

Most of the text is in Spanish, If you would like to have part of a text translated from Spanish into English, send me an e-mail to emunoz167@gmail.com, and for a small donation, for covering our hosting costs, I will honor your request.

 

Regards,

Eduardo Muñoz


Edited by emunoz, 13 August 2023 - 04:37.