47 replies to this topic

[Canadair]

With the possibility of "continuation cars" now being accepted into Historic F1 events, assuming the car is identical in construction, does anyone feel that we shall start to see these cars being built?

Perhaps the possibility now exists to build a Lotus 49B, Gurney Eagle, or whatever one may choose to replicate.

As long as this is done above board, with no intent to deceive, and viewed merely for what it is, a replication of a beautiful example of F1 machinery.

I wonder if this would be a viable project, assuming that there is enough information, drawings, specs, etc. available I guess the potential exists for some pretty amazing replicas.

I also wonder how this would be viewed by owners of the original cars, but again I think the key may be full disclosure, and no attempts whatsoever to pass any replica off as an original, or produced with small parts of an original.

It would simply be a collection of parts, new, rebuilt, but with no history attached of course, other than the adventure of building.

Of course there may be issues with names, manufactureres, etc, I know Ferrari is extremely protective of their name, and actively pursue anyone trying to attach their name to anything but an actual ferrari, but how would that translate to late 60`s to early 70`s F1 designs?

Opinions?

[Canadair]

whoops, OK next try try the search function before! posting.

Well a great deal of opinions seem to exist on the ethics of this issue, with a firm stance on replicas, fakes, etc.
I guess I am more interested in the nuts and bolts logistics of this, can the relevant documentation, etc be collected to create a perfect replica, of for example a Lotus 49?

Has anyone attempted to do this? with no intent to stick a bit of scrap original in for "provenance"

My interest is strictly in the structure, and the beauty of the machine, the history of the originals is a completely separate subject.

[Giraffe]

Continuation Lola T70Mk111B's built by Lola themselves are already built and being raced, and Chevron B8's & B16's are too, built by two different operations both claiming the rights to the name.
.....& while I think of it, the continuation GT40's, and on to single seaters, what about the C.M. Maserati 250F's...............

[Macca]

Ironic that back in the '90s Brian Lister wanted to build some Lister-Jags, not merely in the same factory and on the same jig, but by the same blokes who built the originals..........but was told they would never be accepted for racing.

He was unamused and commented, IIRC, that there were cars out racing that had never seen the inside of his factory..............

Paul M


(PS - anyone got a Martin engine and a set of Pearce plans?)

[johnwilliamdavies]

I'd like to see somebody build the Ginetta Formula One car. That would be a worthwhile undertaking, and not just another replica/continuation.



-----------

Welsh Motor Sport History

[Patrick Fletcher]

Originally posted by Macca
Ironic that back in the '90s Brian Lister wanted to build some Lister-Jags, not merely in the same factory and on the same jig, but by the same blokes who built the originals..........but was told they would never be accepted for racing.

He was unamused and commented, IIRC, that there were cars out racing that had never seen the inside of his factory..............

If that was the case I just wish that he had went ahead and built a lot more and stuffed up the cheats that appear to be supported by the english old boys with impunity.

[David M. Kane]

Another point, continuations arejust as expensive or more expensive as restoration, so they are NOT done as any sort of monetary short-cut.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by johnwilliamdavies
I'd like to see somebody build the Ginetta Formula One car. That would be a worthwhile undertaking, and not just another replica/continuation.

So would the Connaught J type!

[john ruston]

A continuation car(copy or fake whatever you want to call them) are cheaper to buy than rebuilding a car with continueous history.Been there

[AMICALEMANS]

Do you know about Matra ?

Lagardere group which own Matra approved a french company
o build a Matra 640 (wich was destroyed during april testing at Le Mans in 1969), a MS80 F1 wich ran at LM Story in 2007 and they will build four Matra 630 (with Ford 289 engines) to sell it !!!!

[David M. Kane]

John Ruston:

Not in all cases, for example a fake March 741 would cost north of $200,000 US due to castings, etc. Whereas a restoration would be in the $125,000 US to $150,000 US range.

[Canadair]

Thanks for the various opinions,

Regards cost of restoration vs replica,

I guess that would depend on the supply of suitable cars to restore,
and in the case of the really famous ones, I am not sure there are any unrestored examples left,
making the replica the only real option left, unless you are able and inclined to pay the rather large sums they would command.

However, and correct me if I am wrong, but a late 60`s, early 70`s F1 car is not an overly complex machine, most parts are fabricated weldments, or sheet metal, steel and aluminum, there are a percentage of manufactured parts and components, and engines, gearboxes are for the most part available, in particular DFV`s, if that was the chosen engine.
So if an actual restored Historic car is selling for upwards of 500,000 pounds, of course relative to its provenance, I cannot imagine an exact replica would cost even 1/2 of that?

[Rosemayer]

Jim Halls effort

http://www.chaparralcars.com/2e.php

[Red Socks]

At least two Lotus 49's have been built, but in a way I would rather we have known cars like this than see the con men getting away with out and out fakes for dishonest financial gain.

[GeoffE]

http://chaparralcars.com/2e.php

[Rosemayer]

Originally posted by GeoffE
http://chaparralcars.com/2e.php

Thanks for the backup GeoeffE

Cheers Rosey

[Rosemayer]

project917xxxxxxxxxxxxxx.homestead.com/917v20.html

[fines]

Originally posted by Red Socks
At least two Lotus 49's have been built, but in a way I would rather we have known cars like this than see the con men getting away with out and out fakes for dishonest financial gain.

Dishonest gain? If the purchaser thinks he's bought the real deal, then there is no damage done, is there? And if he finds out, that'll teach him to do some research first.

Why pity those who are not smart enough to see the difference? On the one hand, this forum is full of complainers who think that historic cars shouldn't be owned by ignorant bastards who simply happen to have the means to own them. On the other hand, you don't want them to be ripped off because of their ignorance? I don't get it.

[Red Socks]

If you were truly aware ,close up, of the scams which are operated by the crooks you could actually feel sorry for genuine innocent buyers.
We may be very smart in our world, but if you were being conned in, say philately-old stamps -where I certainly, and probably you, really don't know the in depth stuff wolud you be so smug after the event.
I think not.

[fines]

Point is, I wouldn't bother! And I can't see why I should feel sorry for someone who bothers to invest huge amounts of money into something he doesn't have a clue of. Does not compute on my system.

[john ruston]

A fake B8,16,19 ,T70's is half or third of price of car with continueous history.Why buy a real car when fake cars get places on grids.Who is going to buy old cars or do we buy copies.The single seater market means nothing on this side of the pond as everyone seems to want sports or GT cars .Should there be a move to single seaters the original companys will mass produce copies,A new March Co!.Reckon Max has his next job sorted and he had forsight to dream up HTP's.Clever

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by fines
Point is, I wouldn't bother! And I can't see why I should feel sorry for someone who bothers to invest huge amounts of money into something he doesn't have a clue of. Does not compute on my system.

O/T but we found it surprising that buyers of Veteran cars would spend enough money on one to buy a reasonable-sized house without doing any research beforehand - and then would get upset with the VCC's Dating Committee (later VCS's Dating Panel) when it told them what they should have found out for themselves beforehand.
Like you, I find it hard to feel sorry for them.

[Red Socks]

Last time, but you need to understand we are talking major fraud here -letters from original manufacturers which are, to be charitable, less than accurate, corrupt one make club registrars, ignorant and corrupt ASN's.
A newcomer might not understand or expect this level of fraud having taken the best advice in purchasing a car in good faith.
After all the art world has been misdirected in the same way on many occassions-see todays Times.
Out and out rank dishonesty is what I am talking about and any contribution to its demise is welcome.
BTW Max had no part in the origin of the HTP.

[john ruston]

Agree Red Socks.New people come into the pastime and spend money in good faith and some make mistakes usually due to bad advice.Yes,I feel sorry for them and saying that they deserve to lose money is unreasonable .Is this because ,in the best British tradition,people are envious of people who can afford the cars,get over it and get on with life.Now we have legal fakes and problems with dating cars ,newcomers are in an impossible position.
It must be great for Max not to be responsible for HTP's but it did happen on his watch .

[Sportcars]

Replica, continuation, copy, rebuilding, reconstruction, conversion, transformation... Oh my god ! too many words, some looking for profit and money, other people are rebuilding their cars to avoid breaking their authentic car; what will happen to these cars authentic copies in dozens of years, how they call ;) ?

[fines]

I am not envious, nor do I think this is fraud - you simply have to accept that there are no authentic cars in Historic Racing, you can't turn back time! It's in the nature of the beast, a racing car gets used and abused, and parts get to be replaced. It's complete and utter nonsense to talk of authentic and non-authentic cars in racing. Go back and read period reports of cars being "rebuilt around a new frame/monocoque", are these cars fakes, then????

[john ruston]

The best is a car with a proven Continueous History.DSJ had it correct.If bits were changed and its known it does not detract from the History.Even the continuation cars cost as much as half a house so nothings cheap.In the next twenty years copy cars will become real as the CM 250's

[Canadair]

as mentioned there may be a genuine interest, not to mention purpose to certain continuation cars, so with this in mind, would anyone care to comment on the logistics?

If a person does not have access to the original car, does not have any connections with the original manufacturer, and does not possess a set of engineeered drawings just how possible would it be to construct an identical replica?

When these cars were originally built were accurate records, drawings and measurements produced as well, and retained?

Or were they constantly evolving one off machines with no baseline?
And on this subject, is it very hard to pin down one version? what with race to race changes.

I think the only way a "continuation car" and I agree call it what you like, but essentially a replica can only be considered accurate if the same materials, components, techniques, etc are used throughout.

Replicas these days are becoming almost an epidemic, I guess it is because so many of us missed the late 60`s, early 70`s era, either because of age, or lack of funds! and want to now capture a bit of it.

Look at the incredible number and variants of AC Cobra replicas, GT 40 Replicas, and Porshe Speedster replicas, Aviation has a similar replica resurgance, and boating, with vintage Merlin and Allison powered Hydroplanes.
Some really capture the look, feel and performance of the original, some fall far short.

[Sharman]

Down the same line, I always had a soft spot for the Ace Bristol, it is possible to build a "Hawk" replica using one of that firms chassis and repro body. Fit a 6 cylinder BMW power unit and you have what might be a real continuation car.

[john ruston]

If you look at the Tour Auto winner you have but you could probably chuck in a dog box and special suspension etc.looks OK!Where will it end

[Pils1989]

Some replicas can get really expensive if you want it done properly and you might as well save money to get the proper thing.

While taking about racing and demonstrating veteran cars on dirt roads, I've asked Scott George, from the Collier collection, how much it would cost to build a good replica of 1914 GP Mercedes and it would be around 14-15 the value of the real thing.

My dad asked me the same question about building a Simca Gordini replica but I told him it would be better to buy the real thing as the replica, after all, is going to be just a used car worth nothing or at least its weight of scrap metal.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Canadair
As long as this is done above board, with no intent to deceive, and viewed merely for what it is, a replication of a beautiful example of F1 machinery.

Alright for the first owner, maybe the second, then a little fudging, then a lot of fudging,........... somewhere down the road you and I both know that the "continuation" will appear for sale as the real thing.

Reference the Brian Lister story posted above. More Listers running than Brian ever built. Same for D Jags, Porsche Spyders, 250Fs, and on and on. That has happened time and time again, and will continue to happen as long as there is a buck to be made, honestly or not. While, for example, there are a lot of Lynx Jags listed for sale in various publications identified as replicas (and good for the owners for being honest) how many other cars are being offered for sale where the seller is not as scrupulous?

[Red Socks]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RA Historian
[B]Alright for the first owner, maybe the second, then a little fudging, then a lot of fudging,........... somewhere down the road you and I both know that the "continuation" will appear for sale as the real thing.

In a nutshell. The problem which arose for the FIA was that there were a whole stack of cars who had gone down this route but 20 or 30 years ago as acts of fraud. I suspect that the powers that be did not want to get into the legal stuff that would arise if suddenly they started weeding out some cars,possibly not all and possibly some right ones. Throw in the old HVIF which were assumed by many to be an accurate representation of the car and its history and there was a real mess.
The HTP was an attempt to get away from identity in the paperwork process.
No one guessed that the various manufacturers would treat the whole deal as a business oportunity the way it turned out.
But hey-when the Historic thing becomes unfashionable all this stuff will be discounted anyway, the way schools work nowadays its only a matter of time before owning an old racer becomes totally socially unacceptable.

[Stephen W]

At East Fortune on Saturday & Sunday Malcolm Wishart had his 'continuation' Chevron B16 complete with 2 litre BMW engine. It is absolutely lovely and constantly had a crowd of fellow competitors round it admiring the flowing lines.

I certainly couldn't afford a 'real' one but one like this might just be going on my shopping list!

[Giraffe]

Stephen, I presume East Fortune is somewhere in Oz, and the Southport where you reside is also, and not the Southport on the West coast of the UK is, where I grew up?
The Chevron B16 is one of the greatest looking racing cars of all time; I was lucky enough to be at Aintree nearly 40 years ago now when Derek Bennett rolled it out for the first time at the ACC's Tuesday night practice. The impact it had on me then was reciprocated when I saw Jamie Boot's glorious maroon continuation model at the recent Grande Passione meeting at Donington Park.
I've always been absolutely smitten by Chevron having witnessed every model from the B1 being raced in period, and if I owned a continuation B16, I would consider I owned a pukka Chevron!

[john ruston]

But you would not it would be a copy.

[Giraffe]

Everything is a copy of something else in the final analysis; and to me, it depends who copied it.
Ok, I'm going to give you one here; I work in the art world, and have done for 23 years. Andy Warhol eventually commissioned certain nominated artists in his studio to reproduce his work, which he signed.
When he got tired of signing them, he authorised certain artists to sign on his behalf; the artworld considers these as original Warhols, and the great and the good have them hanging on their walls around the world as such. They are considered by all as original Warhols; we ain't gone that far yet!!!

[antonvrs]

So.... I looked at the Chaparral website, which appears not to have been updated in two years, and the fakeydoo 917 website which also is several years old, and the question comes to mind: has anyone stepped up and bought any of these things?
The Chaparral, at least, could be built to very nearly original spec although the blurb on their site doesn't mention what type of transaxle is used. The "917" doesn't have what I consider to be the heart of the original- i.e. the flat twelve Porsche powerplant. There is a reference to the possibility of one "very expensive" flat twelve motor which might be available- probably referring to the recovery of some stolen Porsche race parts in the recent past. So there might be the possibility of one "correct" fakeydoo 917 but at what cost? Nobody talks about the prices of either the Chaparral or the fakeydoo 917. And the fakeydoo 917 doesn't have the pressurised aluminum spaceframe that was another of the real 917's unique features. Would this thing be eligible for the FIA passport or whatever they call it? If not, why would anyone want one?
Hell, you could just glue together a couple of Corvair motors in a Mickey Mouse tube chassis with a copy of that fiberglass body and call that a 917C. At least it would make the right noises(if you leaned on it hard enough).

Somewhat facetiously,
Anton the carmudgeon

[john ruston]

So we will follow the art world.Given time it all becomes Historic and real.Only reasons for replicas is people can make money building the fakes/copies/replicas .Without these stupid HTP's there would not be the rush to build them.Chevrons were duplicated in 80's and 90's but a production line?

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Giraffe
Stephen, I presume East Fortune is somewhere in Oz, and the Southport where you reside is also, and not the Southport on the West coast of the UK is, where I grew up?
The Chevron B16 is one of the greatest looking racing cars of all time; I was lucky enough to be at Aintree nearly 40 years ago now when Derek Bennett rolled it out for the first time at the ACC's Tuesday night practice. The impact it had on me then was reciprocated when I saw Jamie Boot's glorious maroon continuation model at the recent Grande Passione meeting at Donington Park.
I've always been absolutely smitten by Chevron having witnessed every model from the B1 being raced in period, and if I owned a continuation B16, I would consider I owned a pukka Chevron!

Actually, East Fortune is just inland from North Berwick in Scotland. The Southport where I reside is the one in Merseyside.

The B16 was and still is an ICONIC car. It just looks right.

[Giraffe]

What on earth was happening with a B16 at East Fortune?!?!
Did you ever attend the Sand Races at Southport Stephen? I used to marshal at them!

[john ruston]

Here we go and be very picky-Its a continuation/copy/replica 2007/8 B16 and presumably never been to Bolton.Sorry about that

[Red Socks]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by john ruston
.Only reasons for replicas is people can make money building the fakes/copies/replicas
Sorry John a whole load of these cars have been built over the years with the best intention-AJM1, the Tasman Ferrari Single seaters, Cameron Millar cars etc .There are ''greed cars'' but not all by any means


.Without these stupid HTP's there would not be the rush to build them.

I utterly fail to see your point. The HTP is simply a document which lays out and standardises the configuration of the car, it is in every respect identical to the old HVIF except that it does not carry any car identification number as marked on the car, principally because in far too many cases that identification number was ...well use any one of your words John.

[David McKinney]

The point is, Red, that before HTPs it was always a fight to get a replica/copy/fake accepted
It no longer is

[Red Socks]

David completely different issue; you think that the major change in Article 1.2 of Appendix K is related to the introduction of the HTP. They, by coincidence, arrived in sucessive years-the HTP first and the alteration to 1.2 the following year. The HTP arrived in the 2004 Year Book; the new wording of 1.2 in 2005. So for the avoidance of all doubt, once and for all, the HTP did not introduce replicas.

The change, for those unfamiliar, was the introduction of the words '' or cars built to exactly the same specification as''

When all else fails read the regulations.

[john ruston]

The new Chevrons,Lolas ,GT40's and McLarens are being built as a business proposition with HTP papers being given by the makers on purchase.FIA papers would not have been given to the copies.The few types of cars you use as examples were short runs or in the case of the Mayman car a one off.You could include the D50's.Not all people were in agreement with the CM Maserati's at the time

If you want to accept copies best of luck but it underminds the integrity of our pastime.

[Red Socks]

John two things ; The Historic Vehicle Identity Form (HVIF) ,FIA papers, that understanding or misunderstanding was surely was part of the core problem. They were not FIA papers, the FIA knew nothing about them, they were issued by the ASN without any reference to the FIA, though we could discuss the sense of that all day long.
Secondly there were a whole stack of continuation cars , Lola Mk5, FJ Lotus of various marques, various Lolas , Listers, Jaguars, 26R Elans, 23'Bs , Elva, McLarens, Shelby Cobras/350GT's and Chevrons which been fiddled through and into the system and had HVIF, ''FIA papers'' apparently issued by the ignorant for the corrupt. It was an industry.
Why is there this belief that prior to 2004 we lived in some golden age where all the cars racing were real-they were not.The innocence was stolen years and years ago.
As I understand it the problem was there was no way in which it was considered legally safe to deny these extant cars.
As I said in an earlier post I honestly cannot believe anyone foresaw the setting up of new production lines, and I absolutely agree that the arrival of these cars has totally changed the perception of Historic Motor Racing-sadly it has not very much changed the reality

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Giraffe
What on earth was happening with a B16 at East Fortune?!?!
Did you ever attend the Sand Races at Southport Stephen? I used to marshal at them!

Malcolm Wishart, who is a stalwart member of Lothian Car Club, was giving his "new Chevron" a work-out. Over the week-end (Saturday/Sunday) there were two sprints both of which were rounds of the British Sprint Championship, the scottish Speed Championship, the Highland Speed Championship & Lothian Car Club's own championship.

I never did go to the Sand Races at Southport - don't know why as I went to most sorts of events over the years.