39 replies to this topic

[Gerard Gamand]

I try to know more about this driver who win the "Grand Prix de Cadours 1959" Formula Junior.

14 years later, I find his name with a Chevron B19 at Spa Francorchamps in 1973.

Some help ?

[Graham Gauld]

Bill is still around and living in France. Perhaps Sharman can provide more information but he and I met up with Bill for his 85th birthday celebrations here in the South of France. He had been living near Frejus in a caravan park for a number of years and used to visit but has now moved elsewhere in France.
I first met up with him at the Boxing Day Brands Hatch meeting in 1959 when he was one of the Elva drivers in the first truly major Formula Junior race in Britain. That race saw the unpainted Lotus 18 appear for the first time and Jim Clark had his first race in a single seater - a Gemini. The driver of the Lotus was Alan Stacey and the original plan was that both the Lotus and Gemini would debut the new Cosworth engine. However Stacey blew up his engine in practice and Gemini were asked to give up their Cosworth engine to Lotus. Clark, therefore, raced in the event with an Austin engine.
Bill, if I remember correctly, was on pole position for the race but mucked up the start and in the end Peter Ashdown was the winner.
Bill raced a number of cars including a Lister-Jaguar and a Lola.
His father took him to Brooklands when he was very young which fired up his enthusiasm for racing.

Crap photo shows Bill, right, with Sharman

[Gerard Gamand]

Many thanks Graham

[Sharman]

Thank you Graham for the intro. Bill as Graham says is living near Niort and reaches 87 years on 17 June. He has now had a pace maker fitted and is much more cheerful, I had lunch with him on 6th March and he was embarking on a tour of the UK to see his family. He still drives and has complete recall of all his lap times so apart from les annees there is nothing wrong with him. I first met with Bill in 1959at Cadours when he was driving one of the Fitwilliam team Elva 100s, he finished 2nd in his heat to Michael May and won the final after May blew his engine and D'Orey broke his accelerator pedal although he was closing on both of them before the breakdowns. Elva must have sold a lot of cars on the back of this the first International win for a British Junior. We went back to Cadours 12 months ago and did a few gentle laps.
He started his racing with a TR3 and drove a varied selection of cars over the next 20 years, the orignal Lola Mk 1 loaned to him by the works with which he equalled Ashdown's Goodwood lap tmes, Twin Cam MG at the Ring 1000, Lister Jag as GG says, Lotus 19 (lap record Goodwood) Chevron 19 ( he described wet Spa, first time in car, intermittent misfire, terrifying) Chevron 23 etc. Later he bought back his TR3 rebuilt it and continued thro' the 70s in HSCC Racing, his last foray was in an E Type in Modsport I think.
Next year 2009, Sunday Sep 6th. will be 50th anniversary ofBill's win at Cadours and I aim to take him back there to celebrate the occasion.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Good idea Gerard , I do however believe his name to be Selincourt , only 1 "l" !

[RAP]

As I recall his initial success came racing a Triumph TR3 in BARC Marque races against the likes of Chris Lawrence and Syd Hurrell. This would be 1958/59.
RAP

[ReWind]

A short portrait

Born in 1921, Bill first started racing in 1958 in his TR3, but later met R. W. Fitzwilliam who ran two MGA Twin-cams under the Fitzwilliam Racing Team. These were replaced by two of the early Elva Formula Junior cars, and Bill was invited to drive one at the Nurburgring. This was the first F/J race in Germany, held on the 12th July 1959, but Bill did not finish as one of the radius arms fractured, and the factory modified all the cars thereafter. A few weeks later Bill achieved a 4th position at the same circuit, and then moved on to the Cadours circuit in France, where on the 6th September 1959, he won the first heat. He then went on to win the final, to become the first British driver to win an International Formula Junior race and he did it in a British car. The Elva of course. The 1959 Boxing Day meeting at Brands Hatch attracted much attention with top class drivers, and it was Bill who once again sat on the pole position. He had a great start, was in the lead after Druids, but spun and recovered to finish 6th. Bill continued racing in a Lola Mk.1 and then bought a Lister-Jaguar, but an expensive blown engine helped him decide that he should retire from the sport after a brief and successful career.

& some memories by himself

It was June 1959. The Fitzwilliam Racing Team took delivery of two new Elva front engined Formula Juniors and we managed one day at Brands Hatch to run in the BMC A series 990cc engines which were only mildly tuned and fitted with twin SU carburettors. All went reasonably well and at least I had a chance to sit in the car before racing it!

The first race was on the 12th July, the ADAC Eifelrennen held on the famous Nurburgring south circuit, 7.7kms in length with the race being 13 laps or about 100kms. Practice amounted to getting used to the car and the circuit both of which were new to me. Everything held together and we qualified near the back of the grid. After the start and having settled in for a few laps, I began to pass some cars as I found that although the performance was not exciting against the many Stanguellinis running, the road holding and braking was far superior, so that the twisting sections could be covered far more rapidly.

All went well until lap 9 when on a moderately fast downhill series of bends a rear radius arm broke. A huge spin resulted and I spun off into the woods, luckily missing the trees! As I spun, I went hard on the brakes, shut my eyes and hoped for the best, and we suffered no further damage. On our return to England, the car went back to the Elva factory and new beefed up radius arms were fitted to this and I believe all subsequent cars.

The next event on 30th August was the ADAC Eifel-Pokal meeting again at the Nurburgring south circuit and things went much better this time. Now having a feel for the car and circuit, I went to third place (front row) on the grid alongside May and Mitter but in front of Grandsire and D'Orey. Race day was warm and sunny and I made a fair start and at the end of the first lap was lying 4th, lap six I moved up to 3rd and by lap eight had moved to 2nd and only 3 seconds behind Michael May.

I was feeling good and thinking that a win could be possible, and just when I was closing the gap the exhaust manifold fractured and hot gasses fed into the cockpit but were also roasting my left leg. However, it also meant that the performance fell off and there were four laps to go. Unfortunately I was unable to hold on to second place and finished 4th, but at least I now knew that I was able to run with the leading bunch.

The following weekend 6th September was the International Formula Junior race at Cadours near Toulouse. We left the Ring on Monday morning and drove to Paris where a new exhaust manifold was fitted. Fitzwilliam employed no mechanics and so the work was carried out by the driver! We then drove down to Cadours and on our arrival we discovered that there was a unwillingness to accept our entry as for the previous year there was a single English entry, and he finished four laps down. With some difficulty we persuaded the authorities to allow us to run in practice but did well enough to be accepted for the two heats of 20 laps and the final race of 30 laps.

My first heat went well and in the second round I managed to finish second behind Michael May. The second Fitzwilliam entry was driven by Fitzwilliam himself but he failed to qualify. I had noticed that towards the end of the race the clutch was beginning to slip and we had to work on resolving this during the short interval and before the final race. Sixteen cars lined up for the final and I was in the second row of the 3 - 2 - 3 grid line-up. At the start I managed to hold position and was 4th into the first bend, settled down to some steady motoring as the car was handling well with no signs of the earlier clutch problem.

On lap twelve, I moved up to 3rd place having passed Henri Grandsire, at that time Fritz D'Orey was leading with Michael May second and we were all but seconds apart. On lap twenty-two I managed to pass May and chased off after D'Orey, slowly catching up with him and trying to decide the best place to get in front.

Unfortunately I managed a long slide on some dropped oil so fell back and felt the best option was to settle for a 2nd place rather than going off, however, on rounding the blind first corner after the start and with just two laps to go, I came across D'Orey stationary at the track side as his throttle cable had broken. What bad luck, but as one famous driver has said 'you have to finish to win'. The last two laps were nerve racking as all I had to do was stay on the track, keep ahead of May and not break down. All this happened and I crossed the line winning by 5 seconds from May, much to the surprise of many people. Celebrations were certainly in order that evening.

The next event was on October 4th at Brands Hatch being the first Formula Junior race in the UK. It was 12 laps on the short circuit and there were 12 starters, and 7 were Elva. I managed 2nd fastest in practice just behind Mike McGee in the 'works' supported Elva Junior, and this with that slipping clutch playing up again. In the race I had a great scrap with McKee and managed to pass him twice, but he repassed and won by 0.2 of a second. I managed the fastest lap at 71.54, the very first F.J. lap record at Brands. Chris Lawrence drove the second Fitzwilliam Elva to third place.

My final Formula Junior race was the Brands Hatch Boxing Day meeting which was a 10 lap race with some interesting entries. The 'works' Elva drivers included Peter Arundell and Chris Threlfall, a Gemini-Ford with Jim Clark, a Lola-Austin for Peter Ashdown, the Cooper-Austin for Mike Taylor and the first outing of the Lotus-Ford for Alan Stacey. I made fastest lap in practice and lined up on the front row with Peter Arundell, Mike Taylor and Chris Threlfall in that order.

I felt quietly comfortable when I went to bed Christmas night and race day dawned as miserable and damp. This pleased me greatly as I enjoy driving in the wet, and I knew the Brands short circuit well, and the car was running fautlessly. When the flag dropped, I made a bad start dropping to 4th or 5th into Paddock Bend and up the hill to Druids. Down the hill and into the left hander leading onto the bottom straight, I lost it and spun wildly, but by good luck more than judgement, no one hit me however by the time I had gathered everything together I was at the tail of the field. I set too, but it was a hard grind and after 10 laps had only managed to get back to 6th place.

This was my last F.J. drive although we applied to enter the next year’s race at Monaco, but despite the win at Cadours and the Brands Hatch F.J. lap record, our entry was refused. Such is life, but maybe it was a case of who you know rather than what you have done when it comes to Monaco.

[Tim Murray]

On Friday at the Classic Car Show at the NEC I found Bill’s TR3 on display:







I really wish that Bill’s good friend, the recently-deceased John ‘Sharman’ Fielden, could have been there to see it.

(apologies for the poor photo quality; I was using my phone and the lighting was not sympathetic)

[Julian Roberts]

I recently bought a small collection of slides which I assume were taken by a member of Bill de Selincourt's family (or certainly someone quite close).  They feature Bill competing in his Ember Racing Chevron B19/23, his TR3 and his E Type during the early 70's.   I've had enormous fun researching him and his cars (I must confess I had never heard of him).   Amongst them are 30 or so family holiday snaps which while charming are of no interest to me, does anyone have any contact with the de Selincourt family so I might pass them on?

[bradbury west]

As Tim says, it is a pity ( on so many levels...) that a John is no longer with us. I think I may still have the e mail address or phone number of his son Giles, so will try to contact him.  There may be info but I suspect that any links with Bill de S were before John’s time with Barbara.

Possibly a note to the BRDC might give results.  I have a pal in California who raced against him and was in correspondence with John and me about  some Goodwood photos of Bill. If memory serves correctly I think  Bill’s wife/widow was somewhat younger than Bill, and there  was a daughter in a couple of the photos.

As a long shot, but in a small world, perhaps John Coombs’ widow might have some details.

On the Chevron front, there is a strong following for that marque on Facebook, so an appeal there might help.

As another long shot,  Alan Cox of this parish, who seems to know almost everyone, might have some links.

Sorry I cannot be any more helpful in what may be a very rewarding personal trove of photos.

Roger Lund.

[Julian Roberts]

Thank you,  food for thought there.  I have shared a few on the Facebook Chevron group and in particular a few shots of the non driving team members in an effort to identify them.  Sadly one of the more expert members is coming across as a bit of a bully and another very experienced member's last reply to me, after I said I'll add some more, was "why bother?"  

 

I have taken a different route and posted a photo of his TR3 in Alan Cox' own 'Personal Photos from Historic Motor Sport Meetings' group on Facebook and perhaps this will be more fruitful.

 

 

Thanks again

 

Julian

[Roryswood]

I am surprised at the attitude displayed on Facebook , the poster may not have intended to offend , I appreciate the photos , thank you for , posting

[geogphotos]

I have posted a collection of images taken by and of Bill de Selincourt.

https://www.geograph...0000f17So5U49dw

I am interested in making contact with Julian Roberts in regard to the slides he bought.

Mine cover the period from 1959-1963. There are also some of GPs at Monza, Monaco, and a couple from the Belgian GP in 1964.

The ones I have were taken by Bill and his wife at the time called Mary. I also have a lot of family ones of their children, on holidays in France etc

By the 1970s Bill had remarried.

[geogphotos]

Is this Sir Richard Fitzwilliam or driver Chris Lawrence.

 

The photo was taken Oct 4th 1959 at Brands Hatch. 

 

Car 31 driven by Bill de Selincourt came 2nd, Car 30 driven by Chris Lawrence came 3rd

 

Pictures of both cars are in the collection I linked to above.

 

I just wonder from his rather aristocratic face, and no other reason, if this is Dick Fitzwilliam sitting in the car rather than Chris Lawrence. 

 

https://www.geograph...0000XY03MQagc.s

[geogphotos]

I have been in contact with Bill's son Michael but that is his family from his marriage to Mary in the early 1960s.

 

It sounds as though the family snaps that Julian Roberts has is from his subsequent marriage and two daughters. 

[geogphotos]

My web links seem to have been mangled.

 

My website is geographyphotos.com

[bradbury west]

Welcome to TNF. What a wonderful period photo archive. Many  thanks for making it available.

Roger Lund.

[GazChed]

According to Formula 2.net there was a second Formula Junior race at Brands Hatch on the 4th October 1959 in which Bill de Selincourt and Chris Lawrence finished first and second ahead of first race winner Mike McKee.

Edited by GazChed, 01 April 2021 - 07:10.

[geogphotos]

Thanks for the feedback. I have been able to make some corrections thanks to an email from a forum member.  I have almost zero knowledge but want to do my best for these historic images.

 

Thanks GazChed - interesting that there were two races that day,  I'm still wondering if SEL075 shows Sir Richard Fitzwilliam or driver Chris Lawrence. I suppose it is most likely to be Lawrence but there is something about the look of the face.....

 

Another remaining 'problem' is SEL071. This is thought to be the Belgian GP 1964 along with SEL070 ( car 14 Jack Brabham) and the same car as SEL071 in _D0A5163. Car 1 on the race list is down as Graham Hill, BRM

1  Graham Hill BRM

Is SEL071 and _D0A5163 a BRM Climax?

 

Please do let me know if I have dropped any clangers with the captions.

 

Thanks 

 

Ian 

[Tim Murray]

SEL071 and DOA5163 both show a BRM P261, with Graham Hill driving in the latter shot. However, BRM only used Climax engines in F1 in 1961. The P261 in these photos would definitely have used a BRM engine.

[GazChed]

I wonder if Sir Richard Fitzwilliam is more likely to be the chap in the bow tie ?

[nexfast]

Can't help with the captions but the photos are excellent, including the ones on the  site not race related. Out of curiosity, how do you pronounce de Selincourt name in English? French way (Selancoor) or English way (Selinkurt?) ?

[geogphotos]

I wonder if Sir Richard Fitzwilliam is more likely to be the chap in the bow tie ?

 

 

I reckon that bow tie is an employee. From searching Google the man in the car does not look like Chris Lawrence.

 

My hunch is that it is Sir Richard sitting in one of his cars before the race starts.  He just has that sort of aristocratic look about him, I'll probably write the caption as 'thought to be'. Hopefully somebody will let me know one day.

 

I think the pronunciation is 'Sellin' Court'. Yes it does sound French and I noticed on one of the French Wiki motor sports sites that they have his nationality as French following his victory at Cadours in 1959.  Bill de Selincourt ( Elva ) next to a French flag.

Edited by geogphotos, 01 April 2021 - 13:54.

[john winfield]

Excellent photos Ian. Thanks for making them available.

 

I was looking at the 1961 Ferrari shots. At Monaco the helmet colours suggest photo #21 to be Phil Hill and #22 to be Von Trips.  In photo #2, by the Monza paddock flag pole front right, I think that's Baghetti  chatting with a mechanic (?) behind his #32 Ferrari. Might be von Trips but I think it's Baghetti. 

[geogphotos]

How can I get in contact with Julian Roberts who has posted above about his de Selincourt slides?

[Tim Murray]

You can send him a personal message (PM) via the forum. Here’s a link to his personal profile:

https://forums.autos...julian-roberts/

where you’ll find a tab marked ‘Send Me a Message’. When you send the PM he should also automatically receive an email telling him he’s had a PM.

[hatrat]

Is this Sir Richard Fitzwilliam or driver Chris Lawrence.

 

The photo was taken Oct 4th 1959 at Brands Hatch. 

 

Car 31 driven by Bill de Selincourt came 2nd, Car 30 driven by Chris Lawrence came 3rd

 

Pictures of both cars are in the collection I linked to above.

 

I just wonder from his rather aristocratic face, and no other reason, if this is Dick Fitzwilliam sitting in the car rather than Chris Lawrence. 

 

https://www.geograph...0000XY03MQagc.s

Firstly, what a great selection of photos - I had communicated with Bill a number of years ago about Formula Junior in 1960 and particularly the Fitzwilliam Racing Team Lola Mk2 cars. I have a very good close-up photo of Sir Richard Fitzwilliam in one of the Lolas and he doesn't look like anyone in the photo.

Posting images on this site has defeated me but I have posted the photo of Sir Richard Fitzwilliam (at Monaco in May 1960 in the car I now have) on my Facebook site :  https://www.facebook...oger.herrick.90

Edit : I think Sir Richard Fitzwilliam is in the second Elva (car #30?) in photos # 70 and 71.

Edited by hatrat, 03 April 2021 - 20:12.

[Tim Murray]

Posting images on this site has defeated me but I have posted the photo of Sir Richard Fitzwilliam (at Monaco in May 1960 in the car I now have) on my Facebook site : https://www.facebook...oger.herrick.90

Here’s Roger’s Facebook photo:



The caption reads: ‘Sir Richard Fitzwilliam in Lola Mk 2 BRJ1 - Monaco 1960. This was Sir John Whitmore’s entry but the team patron took it out for a lap and pranged it and curtailed Whitmore’s qualifying.’

[Julian Roberts]

Hello Ian,

 

Your PM worked and I have browsed your website, I love the Monaco GP photo's particularly the excellent panning shot of Richie Ginther in the Ferrari.  I took a bit of a punt when I bought Bill's photo's as only a very few were previewed.  I was not disappointed, as apart from his Chevrons, there are shots of his Modsports E Type and his I now learn famous TR3.  I'm hoping to be able to reunite the family ones with his descendants. Any clues how I might ? 

[Julian Roberts]

I have been in contact with Bill's son Michael but that is his family from his marriage to Mary in the early 1960s.

 

It sounds as though the family snaps that Julian Roberts has is from his subsequent marriage and two daughters. 

The 'family' photo's in my possession show Bill with 2 good looking dark haired lads, I guess one of them is Michael? 

[geogphotos]

The 'family' photo's in my possession show Bill with 2 good looking dark haired lads, I guess one of them is Michael? 

 

 

Yes that could be. Michael was born c 1960. I think Bill then had two daughters in his next marriage but presumably still saw his sons from the previous marriage. I have an email address for Michael's wife. I have spoken to Michael on the phone (he doesn't do computers). What happened was that I used my Ancestry family history site to do some research and after a few dead-ends wrote a letter to Michael with my phone number so he phoned me left a message. I phoned him back. He was very pleased that somebody was showing interest in his father's motor racing career. His mother Mary is alive and I did copies of all the family slides for her to have a look at. Presumably she took quite a few of the ones of Bill. Michael gave me persmission to copy the motor racing ones for my site and to offer to publishers. 

[geogphotos]

Firstly, what a great selection of photos - I had communicated with Bill a number of years ago about Formula Junior in 1960 and particularly the Fitzwilliam Racing Team Lola Mk2 cars. I have a very good close-up photo of Sir Richard Fitzwilliam in one of the Lolas and he doesn't look like anyone in the photo.

Posting images on this site has defeated me but I have posted the photo of Sir Richard Fitzwilliam (at Monaco in May 1960 in the car I now have) on my Facebook site :  https://www.facebook...oger.herrick.90

Edit : I think Sir Richard Fitzwilliam is in the second Elva (car #30?) in photos # 70 and 71.

 

That would be Sel073 and Sel074. Yes, that does look like him...or at least more like him that the chap I thought it was with the 'aristocratic' face!

 

Thanks. I'll have to remember to amend the captions.

[geogphotos]

I wonder if anybody can shed any light on _D0A5136

 

Riseley garage?

 

And what sort of car is that? Not a racing car I know, but that's about all I know! 

[Vitesse2]

I wonder if anybody can shed any light on _D0A5136

 

Riseley garage?

 

And what sort of car is that? Not a racing car I know, but that's about all I know! 

The car's easy - it's a Bentley S1 saloon. The one parked on the forecourt is either a Riley One Point Five or a Wolseley 1500; without being able to see the grille it's impossible to tell which!

 

The garage will be more difficult, given that there are two villages of that name - one in Bedfordshire and one in Berkshire. I'll ferret around in some old phone books ...

[Vitesse2]

Looks like it's the Berkshire one. First phone book entry under that name seems to be 1948 - although that's not to say that it didn't exist under a previous name of course. Still there in 1984, which is the date of the final online phone book.

 

Address is a not particularly helpful 'Basingstoke Road', which is the B3349 through the village. Neither the garage building nor the bungalow next to it seems to be visible on Street View, but there are a number of newish-looking houses which were likely built after 1984. As a lot of garages were set up on the site of old forges I'd guess it was probably near the Bull Inn, which is at what looks to have been the centre of the village.

[geogphotos]

Thanks for all the help. I just have the last ones at the bottom to process.  I came across this collection in a local auction and thought that they must be of some historic value. That is what I have been doing over the last year or so. Buying old sets of slides so that I can process them for my website and offer to publishers.

 

What many people don't realise is that simply owning the slide, negative or print does not mean that you also own the copyright.  For this reason - the image becoming separated from the copyright owner - an awful lot of historically important photography is being lost. In many cases literally lost to landfill.  So I had to trace the de Selincourt family to ask for permission.

 

I do feel pleased to have found and 'rescued' these. Often at auction slides, because they don't have much financial value to most people, are bundled up with all sorts of other stuff - projectors, printers, boxes of cameras - and quite likely the buyer has no use for the slides and just chucks them.

 

I literally know nothing about motor sports so it has been very rewarding to get the positive feedback.  Last week I was contacted by an archivist from the USA employed by the current owner of one of the John Coundley cars who wanted copies of some of the pics for their records. She was also incredibly helpful with providing information for some of the captions that had stumped me. 

 

It does seem that you are all very nice people in the motors sports world 

 

Cheers

Edited by geogphotos, 04 April 2021 - 19:39.

[hatrat]

That would be Sel073 and Sel074. Yes, that does look like him...or at least more like him that the chap I thought it was with the 'aristocratic' face!

 

Thanks. I'll have to remember to amend the captions.

Yes that is correct - the "driver" in car #30 (Chris Lawrence's car) in Sel073 and Sel074 is almost certainly the Fitzwilliam Team patron Sir Richard Fitzwilliam. I know that Richard Fitzwilliam took his young son Robin on some team outings but I think he would have been younger than the lads in the photos. Both cars are in the Fitzwilliam BRG (in reality darker than in the photos) and have the Fitzwilliam crest on the cockpit side panel.

 

Bill de Selincourt was down to drive the Lola Mk2 in post #28 at Albi on 12 June 1960 but was a DNA as the car was withdrawn as by that time it was with Ferrari for "development testing".

[Julian Roberts]

Enthused by the recent activity on this thread I thought I'd have a stab at uploading a picture.  I didn't read the how to thread, I just tried a few different methods and method 3 seems...to have worked.  This is a shot of Bill de Selincourt taken during a (spectator) visit to Le Mans in 1974.  Fingers firmly crossed...

 

[geogphotos]

Julian, If you want somewhere to show those slides and Michael gives the okay then you know who to ask. 

 

One of 'mine' shows him at the Ring in Germany holding a glass of beer - not sure if it was just before a race!

[geogphotos]

I have finally finished processing all of them - even ones that are 'dodgy' in terms of quality - just seemed silly to leave any out.

 

They are all at Alamy for publishers, archivists, enthusiasts. 

 

Thanks again for all the help in getting these properly captioned. If you spot any errors please make contact via my website.

 

https://blog.geograp...ncourt-archive/