10 replies to this topic

[Top Fuel F1]

The F1 Starting System in review:
1. Once the start offical decides the cars are in position he activates the auto pre-programmed final start procedure.
2. Five red lights turn on one after another at one sec. intervals until all 5 lights are lit.
3.The actual start signal is when all 5 red lights turn off simultaneously. This happens between .2 sec. and 3 sec. after the fifth red light had lit. This lapse in time is determined by the start offical at each race and pre-programmed into the start system prior to the race. The value picked is confidential.
4. In one Atlasf1 Post I saw on Sunday night some one said there was sensors to sense the first movement of the cars. I don't know if that means each of the cars on the grid or just each on Row 1. I myself have not heard or seen anything else about sensors being in place for F1 starts.

For comparison and discussion: The NHRA Drag Racing Starting System in review:
1. The 2 cars slowly pull up to the starting line. When their front tires interrupt the Infrared (IR) Beams small yellow lights at the top of the starting light assembly light, and the drivers then hold the brake handle on.
2. These small yellow lights indicate to the official starter that both cars are properly staged. He then presses a bottom which starts the non-programmed fixed time start procedure.
3. A row of yellow spot lights sequence on from top to bottom where finally a green spot light is lit.
4. The cars can only leave when the green light is on. When a car leaves it is electronically detected by the front wheels uninterrupting the IR Beams. If this happens prior to the green light lighting, then a red spot light comes on automatically causing an immediate disqualification of that car.

Some one on another Atlasf1 Forum was making comment on the F1 Indy start about how the time between all Red lights on and all off seemed longer than usual. He may not have been aware that this is a variable time at the discretion of the offical starter. For this reason F1 drivers can not easily practice for this. In that the Drag Race start sequence is a fixed time they can and do pratice on simulators. They initiate leaving when the last yellow spot light comes on and before they see the green spot light. This way they catch the green just before their front wheels uninterrupt the IR beams. If they wait to actually see green they usually will not win the race. So at Indy if DC was trying to do some anticipating, and the official had preprogrammed the interval for 3 sec., he may have errored in that way.

In any event, if F1 does not have sensors for detecting the car leaving they desparately need that. Including an electronically controlled indicator for everyone to see when there is an infraction. Like the Red Light in Drag Racing. If F1 has sensors why didn't the officals immediately confirm the violation and Black Flag the violator off the track? Verifying by video tapes is only viable for something like American NFL Football disputed official's calls, where everything stops while they do this.

I'm not implying that in F1 a car in violation would necessarily have to be disqualified, only that it is of the up most importance to immmediately get them off the track until they can be restored to a technically legal status. In Drag Racing circumstances are such that there isn't any choise but to disqualify the car.

Anyone have information about F1 races starts having sensors for detecting first movement of the cars, and how that might be implimented?

Best Regards;

[Billy Gunn]

Hi Top Fueller,

The F1 cars carry a small electronic tagger (transponder), the function of this gives the 'timekeepers' information when the car crosses the start/finish line and results in the official lap time.
This tagger is also used to give pit stop times, which are only registered when the car comes to a halt, and conversely finish as soon as the car moves off. I believe their is a transceiver buried in the pit lane for the purpose of this.

It's then only a small step to mounting a transceiver at trackside for all the cars to see who jumps the start. DC was obviously wound up by Ron Dennis to assist Mika Panniken to get the drop on Schuey and hold him back while Panniken got away. The second best option was to get DC to hold up the rest of the field (which he did) while Panniken had a free hand to climb over Shuey's gearbox, without the worry of somebody doing the same to him.

McClaren team equates to dirty Busturds - just like Ron Dennis, as the saying goes "Like Team Chief - Like Team"

[desmo]

I don't have the particulars at hand but I read somewhere recently that sensors around the size of a roll(20) of American quarter dollars are buried in the track beneath each position on the grid to help detect jumped starts. When the grid was moved back, they had to add more for the rear of the grid. Panikken!? Probably is.

[Top Fuel F1]

Again! At Susuka the officals were examining video tape (from many angles) to see if some driver (not identified) had jumped the start. Apparently the detection methods were just not out of order at Indy. It seems Transponers would work for such a purpose but the FIA has just not employed such a efficient scheme.

[Ursus]

Sporting reg. 148) A time penalty will be imposed for a false start judged using an FIA supplied transponder which must be fitted to the car as specified.

I'm guessing they check the video to confirm the false start. It seems that moving slightly and coming to a stop again before the lights go out is not deemed to be a false start.

[Top Fuel F1]

Ursus:

I had been looking at the Tech. Regs. where it only says the transponder has to be used according to the FIA's directions. So what you say seems to be correct. However, they may need a little more technical invention to eliminate such situations of an offender running six laps before the officials make up their minds .ie DC at the Indy GP.

Best Regards;[p][Edited by Top Fuel F1 on 10-19-2000]

[Ursus]

Remember that those 6 laps include the 3 lap "reaction time" a driver has after the team was notified of the penalty.

[Magnet]

Billy Gunn -

Your comments about DC's tactics at Indy are a fascinating study in either "situational ethics" or "selective memory disorder." What exactly did Michael Schumacher do at Malaysia last year? He got in front of Mika Hakkenin and then slowed. He admitted, in print, that he varied his braking points and when he got on the throttle. To the extent that, as reported in the current issue of AtlasF1, the practice was banned at Sazuka when the FIA decided it could be used against Schumacher.

Your comments about Ron Dennis in this thread and others reveal a pathological hatred of the man. You even refer to him as "Ron (Goebells) Dennis", which I think is a disgusting and totally unnecessary reference to the the Nazi hate-monger. Why? Because he has lead McLaren to several championships in the last 10 years and Ferrari has earned one in, what, 25 years of trying. Because he lets his drivers race for the championship until one has a clear lead, while Ferrari makes sure that their golden boy is always going to finish first as long as he is still running.

I respect Michael Schumacher for his ability to get 100% out of a 95% car. And I respect Jean Todt for his management and for his magnominity in victory. Why don't you take a lesson from him and try to respect one of the most winning teams (behind Williams) in the modern era of F1.


Magnet

[desmo]

In BG's defense, MS didn't get in front by jumping the start. I think we can both agree that isn't an insignificant distinction. As to the rest, RD has proven himself extremely competent as a team manager, but doesn't seem to possess what might be termed a "winning personality."

[Magnet]

Desmo -

A very valid point about the jumped start. I don't dispute that the tactic is not very sporting, no matter who does it, and it has, in fact, been somewhat ambigously banned. My dispute was with the "Michael walks on water" syndrome.

Although I have never met Ron Dennis (I would like to) I have read many reports that would seem to back up your claim that he doesn't have an outgoing personality. You said "winning personality" and I am sure your tongue was planted firmly in cheek when you wrote that. I think maybe he is possessed of the kind of singular focus and drive that makes a winning team, if not a winning personality.

If you asked RD if he wanted to be popular and outgoing or win Grand Prixs, I suspect that it would be the later.

Thanks for bringing the one point to my attention Desmo.

Magnet

[Top Fuel F1]

Well it's (jump the start light) happened again in the last race of the year. Because Fox Sports Florida doesn't show this race until Tues. I did not have the opportunity to see this. Could some one tell me how long it took the officials to call the penalty this time? Although there is suppose to be a car transponder involved in the detection process the officials usually go into a mode of reviewing video tapes from all possible angles (for instance taking up to 3 laps worth of time at Indy) before deciding on whether or not an infraction had actually occurred. I was advised in a previous Post that even after the penalty is issued the offending car has another 3 laps to come in for the 10 sec. stop. I assume this was the reason it took 6 laps to get DC in to the pits.

In any event I see some discussion today about: that a car should not be penalized because of a creeping clutch, etc. In some other racing this is not an excuse and you are penalized or in fact disqualified. If a clutch is grabing and those powerful F1 brakes can't hold the car there is something drastically wrong. Anyway if they start letting a one car do this (guess what?) sooner or later all the cars will be creeping and jumping.