36 replies to this topic

[Bbbut]

Hello there,

As you all know, in two weeks time Formula One is going to race at the Monaco Grand Prix.
For me this event has been the most boring race of the season for the last 40 years. Because overtaking is virtually impossible. In my eyes, the main reason for this is the too short straight after the tunnel and the narrow width of the track at that point.

I always thought this is the best they could do with the given streets, that the "change of lane" was necessary.
But I had a look at the satellite pictures from Microsoft (Google's are crap) and was quite shocked to find a second road next to the circuit that seems to be perfectly usable as well.

Have a look at this image:

As you can see, there is no real need for the harbor chicane to be there. The cars could just go on another 300m straight ahead.
And there is even more potential here. Since Monaco is the most prestigious race I am sure they could get the local administration to cut down the trees between the two roads creating a nice 4-lane-wide racing line. Maybe one could create some sort of temporal removable tree pot as compensation.

The new "tabac chicane" could be easily implemented this way (if they only use the right road).

But ideally they would build a platform into the water like they did with the current chicane. We would have a totally sweet overtaking spot there with the wide track and everything.



Oh, and there is a tiny improvement at the beginning of the straight as well. Looking at this picture I get the impression, they could find another 50m and a faster turn if they followed the marked road. Not much I know but it could help...


So what do you thing about moving the chicane further back?
Is this feasible in your eyes?
Would you support it or would you feel as if a historic track is being crippled?
I am very interested in your opinions on this.

[noikeee]

I like both of your suggestions.

Monaco has already been changed over the years (check the 1967 Monaco layout on the Grand Prix Legends game to see how different it was), so why not modify it a little bit more to fit the current cars?

The only thing I can think that could be an argument against these ideas, is if those roads (that you're proposing to incorporate into the layout) are needed for any sort of local traffic during the race, or for the marshalls to move across different places in the track, or something like that.

[Fatgadget]

Why fix something that is not broken?

Its an anachronistic street circuit for crying out loud. The only way to make Monaco 'suite' modern cars is to abandon it all together.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by Fatgadget
Why fix something that is not broken?

Because it is broken.

[GhostR]

Not against any changes to help with overtaking - as Monaco has always changed, be it actual changes or simple re-profiling, pretty frequently - however to say that the races the last few years have lacked overtaking and excitement is wrong. Strangely enough the last few years has seen a good amount of overtaking, most especially some very exciting passes / passing attempts at the very chicane you talk about removing. As a reminder, many of them involved Renaults (both Fisi and Alonso).

[schuey100]

Monaco has been okay in recent years, the big bore for me has been Barcelona. We'd be better off losing the track off the agenda or fix it.

[Risil]

The problem is the cars, not the circuits. Just make them varied and challenging, and possible for the cars to pass each other and go quickly, and we'll all have gay old time.

[LB]

One small problem in where you have located the 'four lanes wide', bit is that after the junction that you see onto the harbour road the outer two lanes rise on the way up to St Devote which is actually a fair bit higher than Tabac. You can see this from the wall behind the cars parked on the outside, so it just wouldn't work with the lay of the land.Its also the access road from the current chicane area to the pits but thats not that important.

The second picture has been talked about before as an improvement, with proposed extensions going even further out to get a longer run along the harbour.

[stevvy1986]

the problem with barcelona is the teams test there all through the year basically,so theres never any suprises there and it also makes it nigh on impossible to overtake

back to topic,monaco the last few years hasnt been that bad overtaking-wise (especially considering how tight it is and the fact the current generation of cars seem unable to overtake at most tracks)

[Jerome]

I think the problem is that of safety. If you would restore the old chicane, you have a monster of a corner, the drivers will love it, it will be something like Eau Rouge... but ten times more dangerous.

The thing is: the current chicane forces drivers to not only brake, but also make a real steering movement. Restore the old chicane and the cars will be approaching at 300 plus and make only a slight swerve with a real small margin between success and disaster. I am not talking about a sideways collision, but a head on nightmare. A bit like that strange superfast corner after the straight at Surfers Paradise. Really, really dangerous.

So, if you want to fix the corner, make a real straight from the tunnel to the next real corner.

[Dudley]

They can't go straight any longer, they would be going too fast.

[Andrew Ford &F1]

Originally posted by schuey100
Monaco has been okay in recent years, the big bore for me has been Barcelona. We'd be better off losing the track off the agenda or fix it.

Spot on, buddy!!!

[Bbbut]

Originally posted by Jerome
[B]I think the problem is that of safety. If you would restore the old chicane, you have a monster of a corner, the drivers will love it, it will be something like Eau Rouge... but ten times more dangerous.
...
So, if you want to fix the corner, make a real straight from the tunnel to the next real corner.

Did you even read my post? Where am I saying to reinstall the old chicane?
In fact I am suggesting to make it a real straight just like you...

Originally posted by stevvy1986
Monaco the last few years hasnt been that bad overtaking-wise...

Yes, I know that Heidfeld did overtake Alonso in 2005 but please take it in perspective. Heidfeld was lapping 4 seconds faster!

Originally posted by Dudley
They can't go straight any longer, they would be going too fast.

Not that much actually. The difference between 300 and 320 km/h is not that great collision-wise. Besides, wait for the upcoming Valencia GP, they will be over 320 km/h on three straights with not much more safety rooms.

Originally posted by LB
One small problem in where you have located the 'four lanes wide', bit is that after the junction that you see onto the harbour road the outer two lanes rise on the way up to St Devote which is actually a fair bit higher than Tabac.

I did a search on this and you are right, there is a rise on the right shortly before the tabac turn.
One can see it here:


Still I think it would be possible and better for overtaking if they move the chicane these 250 meters back...

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Bbbut
Since Monaco is the most prestigious race I am sure they could get the local administration to cut down the trees between the two roads creating a nice 4-lane-wide racing line.

Cutting all those trees for a three-days-a-year event ??

[noikeee]

Originally posted by scheivlak

Cutting all those trees for a three-days-a-year event ??

So what? Plant 200 of them somewhere else around Monaco, saving the planet and making a nice PR-event out of it.

[pingu666]

how about some banked turn? use the other road till shell sign roughly, then have some grovy twisty downhill banked construction thing...

[Jerome]

Originally posted by Bbbut

Did you even read my post? Where am I saying to reinstall the old chicane?
In fact I am suggesting to make it a real straight just like you...

691/monaco02dql1.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Woah, buddy! No need to shoot ye old buddy here. I can read, but I sometimes misread. If you have hemroids, don't sit down in front of a computer.

[wj_gibson]

Wasn't it for the 1972 race that the chicane was moved much further down the road toward Tabac in order to use the harbour front area as the pit lane? Apparently it was only one car width wide and the drivers hated it.

The solution adopted for 1973 was to divert the circuit around the swimming pool so that a larger pit lane could be accommodated in the start/finish area, and the chicane was restored to its original location until 1986.

On the final picture (bypassing Portier); it was an idea floated quite a few times in the late 1970s and early 1980s since there is a road that runs all the way to the French border that can loop back onto the road that leads down to the tunnel and make the tunnel area much faster. Clearly, there would be major safety fears if that went ahead.

[djellison]

You're never going to make overtaking east at Monaco. Fact. Forget trying to make it happen, because it simply isn't. There are circuits with straights a full km+ long, and people can't overtake down them. Another 200 metres at Monaco isn't going to make any difference.

The simple process of seeing an F1 car drive around the circuit is the spectacle at Monaco. Overtaking never has been, nor ever will be.

Doug

[united]

Wait for this year's mayhem, and you will understand, there is no need to change.

[Pingguest]

Yesterday I watched the 1985 Monaco Grand Prix. It was nice to see Michele Alboreto doing a couple of nice passings. It proved to me that overtaking is possible on that track, if we would change the cars.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Originally posted by Risil
The problem is the cars, not the circuits. Just make them varied and challenging, and possible for the cars to pass each other and go quickly, and we'll all have gay old time.

Hear, hear.

[Dolph]

I think safety is gonna be a concern then. If there actually is a real chance of overtaking, I can see cars weaving under braking and you are gonna get loads of crashes then . Unfortunately there's really no runoff

[pkenny]

I like the current corner. The cars are turning and braking coming down quiet a hill, which is much steeper than it appears on the tv pictures. We do actually see passing there but this is really limited by the inability to follow another car through the tunnel. This is not something that would be fixed - I think - with an extra 300 metres.

Having been to the race once - what is not seen on the tv coverage is the battles down the field. You can get a train of 5 or six cars behind a slower car. Watching how this develops in fascinating - who will try to make a move. You can really see the mental strength and concentration that is required for a driver to keep their place at the front of one of these queues.

[bradleyl]

One interesting bit of context from a book published back in 1960, called 'Cars at Speed' by Robert Daley:

"The Grand Prix de Monaco is rarely a thrilling race, but it often is exciting, even spectacular, simply because of the setting"

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...

Given that the circuit is already pretty much exempted from all current safety standards, the idea of increasing vmax with a longer straight, and removing all run-off area beyond the chicane, seems a bit of a non-starter?

[mikedeering]

That road with the trees is pretty tight, as is the "chicane" entrance to switch back to the main track. That road is actually the route standard traffic uses and having driven it myself I can't see it working, not without felling a few trees and pissing of the residents.

[Rabbit123]

It's an ambitious idea, but it could work.

[Jerome]

Originally posted by bradleyl
One interesting bit of context from a book published back in 1960, called 'Cars at Speed' by Robert Daley:

"The Grand Prix de Monaco is rarely a thrilling race, but it often is exciting, even spectacular, simply because of the setting"

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...

Given that the circuit is already pretty much exempted from all current safety standards, the idea of increasing vmax with a longer straight, and removing all run-off area beyond the chicane, seems a bit of a non-starter?

Yeah, and be careful with changes, they can sometimes overdo your wishes. The best example is the tennis at Wimbledon. After the 1991 final (I believe), the organisers decided that it was enough with the dominant serves on Wimbledon. So, they started to use different grass, they firmed up the underground, they slowed down the balls... And indeed, the serve is less dominant. But now there's another problem. Now there is moaning all the time that 'there is no serve & volley anymore' at Wimbledon. 'It just like playing on any hardcourt,' Pat Cash says, for instance. 'The slower ball and the harder ground has taken away the volley.'

Yep.

[Locoblade]

Nice ideas but I suspect half the issue is that many of those secondary roads are used for temporary grandstands and access for marshalls etc. For example if you used that entire 4 lane segment as track there would be no grandstands / access along there at all.

[howardt]

As an alternative / complementary suggestion, there was some land-reclamation in the harbour a few years ago. There is now the possibility for the circuit to take a straight line from swimming pool exit to rascasse. (cutting out the 2nd 'chicane' around the pool and the curved entry to rascasse). The grandstand that is built on this reclaimed land facing inland could simply be placed on the current rascasse entry and turned around to face the harbour.
I believe that this would create another overtaking opportunity* going into the rascasse (which would be reduced from a hairpin to a 100 degree corner or so.) The exit of rascasse is reasonably wide, possibly the widest part of the circuit.

*in the Monaco sense , ie a very slim opportunity

[Locai]

Monaco has never been about passing. It's about the spectacle and about keeping the car off the walls.

Monaco wouldn't be boring even if there wasn't a single pass. It's the only track I'd say that about, though.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by Dudley
They can't go straight any longer, they would be going too fast.

We can't have the most sophisticated race cars in the world going too fast, can we?

Sorry, the idea that in a contest of speed, it's a problem to have cars go "too fast" just struck me this morning as weird.

[wingwalker]

Originally posted by Locai


Monaco wouldn't be boring even if there wasn't a single pass. It's the only track I'd say that about, though.

I don't agree. Last year race was boring as ****, Monaco or not.

[Umpire]

I think we actually see more overtaking in Monaco than in other places...

[Josta]

Originally posted by Umpire
I think we actually see more overtaking in Monaco than in other places...

Only if a Ferrari parks in quali.

[howardt]

Originally posted by Umpire
I think we actually see more overtaking in Monaco than in other places...

Which is a tragic indictment of the state of F1 and the difficulties of overtaking inherent in these cars. Once (I live in eternal hope) they've sorted out the cars and made overtaking a viable proposition, then is the time to address the lack of overtaking opportunities at this circuit in particular.

[Jerome]

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker


We can't have the most sophisticated race cars in the world going too fast, can we?

Sorry, the idea that in a contest of speed, it's a problem to have cars go "too fast" just struck me this morning as weird.

I understand where you are coming from. But as I wrote in earlier post, we can't accept anymore that a tiny steering error results in death and mayhem, with both drivers and specators dying. And the old Monaco track with modern machinery would just be such a track.

(I mean: Eau Rouge at Spa is still dangerous. I still think someone can die there in a F1 car. But I don't think there's a realistic chance of a car ending up in the audience.)