235 replies to this topic

[Digitaldrug]

Im sure that if he was British he would have been labelled the next Senna, many years ago. Instead hes been largley ignored by the media and the top teams and when you look at his career record its hard to understand why. Lets take a look.

He has comprehensively outpaced Yoong, Wilson, Davidson, Pizzionia, Heidfeld, Rosberg and DC. Every single team mates hes ever had. Thats Schumacher like and many of them have been rated drivers. None have been able to match his speed. His career qualifying record is 89 -19 which is one of the best of all time and if a top 10 qualifiers list of all time is ever written, Webber would most probably be on it, and his record strongly suggests Webber could be one of the fastest drivers of all time, at least over a lap. Hes also a strong racer, when the car doesnt break down, fast in the wet and on all tracks.

I was always skeptical about him initially when he was beating inexperienced and pay drivers but hes continued to thrash even the experienced drivers like Heidfeld and DC. He was outpacing Heidfeld just as much as Kubica is now dont forget.

So why has he been ignored by Ferrari and Mclaren his whole career and just how good is he? I think he would be WC material in a Ferrari any day of the week.

[Jhope]

I don't know if I agree with your statements, but I do know that he would have had the chance to enter F1 with McLaren if DC and Hakkinen were not so good together. Do not forget that at the time (99-00) Mercedes were really backing this guy, and had huge expectations for him.

[wonk123]

I think he could be WDC in a Ferrari, but then again so could lots of others!
I have said many the same things as you for a long time, you can only ever really
be compared to your team-mate.. that said I don't think there was much between Webber
and Heidfeld.
But I would love to see him in a top team, can't see it happening though

[Digitaldrug]

Heidfeld was the tortoise at Williams and just profited in races when Webber broke down or made a few mistakes from pushing too hard. Webber was clearly faster.

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by Digitaldrug
Im sure that if he was British he would have been labelled the next Senna, many years ago. Instead hes been largley ignored by the media and the top teams and when you look at his career record its hard to understand why. Lets take a look.

He has comprehensively outpaced Yoong, Wilson, Davidson, Pizzionia, Heidfeld, Rosberg and DC. Every single team mates hes ever had. Thats Schumacher like and many of them have been rated drivers. None have been able to match his speed. His career qualifying record is 89 -19 which is one of the best of all time and if a top 10 qualifiers list of all time is ever written, Webber would most probably be on it, and his record strongly suggests Webber could be one of the fastest drivers of all time, at least over a lap. Hes also a strong racer, when the car doesnt break down, fast in the wet and on all tracks.

I was always skeptical about him initially when he was beating inexperienced and pay drivers but hes continued to thrash even the experienced drivers like Heidfeld and DC. He was outpacing Heidfeld just as much as Kubica is now dont forget.

So why has he been ignored by Ferrari and Mclaren his whole career and just how good is he? I think he would be WC material in a Ferrari any day of the week.

Unfortunately for Webber, he has to compete against the entire field, not just his team mate. Also, F1, or any form of racing for that matter, isn´t about a single lap.
Just look at his record, I mean his real record, not his whatcouldhavebeen record, and you will see exactly why he´s where his is in the greater scheme of things.
Underrated? I would say vastly overrated.

[Christian Szymczak]

Hmm I don't know it's very hard for me to say how good he is. I've wanted to see what he could do in a top car, and at times I have been very impressed with his qualifying pace. I seem to remember, however, that Heidfeld was very close to him on a consistent basis. I don't remember all of the facts of course, so don't hold me to that, but that's what I remember.

Some of his teammates are never was beens like DC, and others are talented drivers that raced against him when they were very inexperienced like Wilson, Davidson, and Rosberg.

The best comparisons we have are with the consistent drivers whose speed we are familiar with like DC and Heidfeld. So far he has beaten DC pretty bad, and was a good match for Heidfeld in races and better in qualifying. So judging by those 2 you could probably say he's pretty damn good. Is he Raikkonen or Alonso good? Honestly I don't think so, but you never know I guess.

[wonk123]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Unfortunately for Webber, he has to compete against the entire field, not just his team mate. Also, F1, or any form of racing for that matter, isn´t about a single lap.
Just look at his record, I mean his real record, not his whatcouldhavebeen record, and you will see exactly why he´s where his is in the greater scheme of things.
Underrated? I would say vastly overrated.

Interesting to see his record compared to DC this year with a bit of reliability. What really has happened is that all of his teammates who were going to be world-beaters turned out to get a spanking worse than Max's. I remember the talk at the start of his time at Jaguar how Pizzonia was going to show what a pretender Webber really was; yeah you remember Pizzonia don't you?? I don't think DC is any slower this year than he has ever been! Who is over-rated?? posiibly his only team-mate who wasn't going to teach Webber a lesson was Yoong!

I know bleating about wrong place wrong time is pointless, but maybe just maybe his run of bad luck may start to even itself out and we may see him in a decent car

[LukeM]

if he was in the best car in the field he would have a great shot at the WDC theres no doubt about that.

[Digitaldrug]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Unfortunately for Webber, he has to compete against the entire field, not just his team mate. Also, F1, or any form of racing for that matter, isn´t about a single lap.
Just look at his record, I mean his real record, not his whatcouldhavebeen record, and you will see exactly why he´s where his is in the greater scheme of things.
Underrated? I would say vastly overrated.

You mean look at his overall record in midfield cars and compare it others in top cars? How fair.. How is he overrated? You just made a statement without any argument. Back it up.

[sopa]

Underrated of all times is probably an overexaggeration. In the past there have been lots of good drivers, who are undeservedly forgotten by now. But Webber, you see, isn't forgotten - instead of this gets a lot of attention!

[Jackman]

He should have listened to Flavio and taken the Renault drive when it was offered to him instead of going to Williams: Alonso won 2 world championships in that car.

[Jhope]

Originally posted by Jackman
He should have listened to Flavio and taken the Renault drive when it was offered to him instead of going to Williams: Alonso won 2 world championships in that car.

What was the story behind that? He wasn't interested in racing alongside Alonso?

[acey]

Q: Is Webber the most underrated driver of all time?

A: No.

[Jackman]

Originally posted by Jhope
What was the story behind that? He wasn't interested in racing alongside Alonso?

He grew up in Australia hearing all the old Jones/Williams stories, and thought he'd write the next chapter. From day one in F1 he wanted to drive for them.

[Jhope]

I forgot that little piece of the puzzle...see what happens to you when you work overnight on minimal sleep?

[tahadar]

Originally posted by Digitaldrug
Heidfeld was the tortoise at Williams and just profited in races when Webber broke down or made a few mistakes from pushing too hard. Webber was clearly faster.

so heidfeld's pole and two 2nd's vs webbers 1x3rd in 2005 were all a fluke? heidfeld finished 10 points lower than webber with pretty much the same amount of retirements, but heidfeld also missed the last 5 races due to his testing crash. until that point i think both were tied on points. that, to me, suggests they were quite similar. webbers pretty damn fast, no doubt, but i just dont think hes THAT good.

[Hippo]

Originally posted by wonk123


I know bleating about wrong place wrong time is pointless, but maybe just maybe his run of bad luck may start to even itself out and we may see him in a decent car

It would be oh so great, if for one time his choice of team was a good one. I'd laugh my ass of if the 09 RBR granted him wins and a WDC contending position.

[Digitaldrug]

Originally posted by tahadar


so heidfeld's pole and two 2nd's vs webbers 1x3rd in 2005 were all a fluke? .

Considering he got that pole with only 12 laps of fuel and webber had much more and retired on lap 3, yes basically a fluke.

[Peter Perfect]

Originally posted by Digitaldrug
Im sure that if he was British ...

...he'd get very little funding and would be off to the USA.

He's a good driver but it's all about being in the right place at the right time to get a good car. He's only ever been in midfield cars and, for whatever reason, has been unlucky with reliability. He has flashes of brilliance occasionally, but without the consistency of points finishes he won't attract the attention of the top teams. Hopefully this year will be different.

[kamix]

No.

[djned]

i think webber is overrated actually. he's a good qualifier but not a good racer, not aggressive enough imo. biddova wet blanket.

[saudoso]

Originally posted by acey
Q: Is Webber the most underrated driver of all time?

A: No.

[VoidNT]

Underrated? No. Underachieved? Probably.

[Rinehart]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Unfortunately for Webber, he has to compete against the entire field, not just his team mate. Also, F1, or any form of racing for that matter, isn´t about a single lap.
Just look at his record, I mean his real record, not his whatcouldhavebeen record, and you will see exactly why he´s where his is in the greater scheme of things.
Underrated? I would say vastly overrated.

Do you always see things the complete opposite to reality on purpose? Webber has qualified and raced each of his cars in positions they had no right to be in. Who could have done better than he has done at Red Bull WITH the car he has and the reliability he has had? Back up your statement.

Webber would have been a McLaren driver by now but for the fact he flipped that Merc sportscar and publically blamed them for giving him an unsafe car to race. That is astonishingly unfair punishment for a guy who had just climbed out of a 200mph shunt. He's looking better than Alonso this season in a car with the same engine but less manufacturer support. Over-rated?

[Rinehart]

Webber does still have chances to land a race winning car over the next couple of years with Renault and BMW...

[glorius&victorius]

I think Webber is the most talented driver of all time ....

[Hacklerf]

Overrated if anything imo

[Lontano]

Yoong was slow
Wilson was no match for Bourdais
Davidson had 2 races in a car he had never driven before
Pizzionia is Pizzonia
Heidfeld was even with him
Rosberg was in his rookie year
DC is on the way down since 2004

i wouldn't say underraeted, neither overrated... he is were he deserves to be: midfield

[dank]

Originally posted by Rinehart
Webber does still have chances to land a race winning car over the next couple of years with Renault and BMW...

He's been quoted recently as saying that he's interested in staying at Red Bull now that they appear to be making progress. I think/hope Webber stays at RBR for a good few years and they partner him up with Vettel or Buemi, should be an interesting combination.

I think there's no doubting that Webber is one of the better qualifiers in F1 at the moment. Those saying he's not aggressive enough might have a small point; I think he knows what he and the car can do and doesn't put himself at risk with difficult manoeuvres and instead bags a steady flow of points which will make all the difference at the end of the season. Play it safe. Get points.

[Lontano]

Originally posted by dank

He's been quoted recently as saying that he's interested in staying at Red Bull now that they appear to be making progress. I think/hope Webber stays at RBR for a good few years and they partner him up with Vettel or Buemi, should be an interesting combination.

I think there's no doubting that Webber is one of the better qualifiers in F1 at the moment. Those saying he's not aggressive enough might have a small point; I think he knows what he and the car can do and doesn't put himself at risk with difficult manoeuvres and instead bags a steady flow of points which will make all the difference at the end of the season. Play it safe. Get points.

Wasn't that what he said about Heidfeld? "He just sits there"...

[Josta]

Originally posted by Lontano


Wasn't that what he said about Heidfeld? "He just sits there"...

Well he just sat there and beat Webber till Heidfeld left Williams.

[Rinehart]

Originally posted by Lontano
Yoong was slow
Wilson was no match for Bourdais
Davidson had 2 races in a car he had never driven before
Pizzionia is Pizzonia
Heidfeld was even with him
Rosberg was in his rookie year
DC is on the way down since 2004

i wouldn't say underraeted, neither overrated... he is were he deserves to be: midfield

Yoong was slow - in comparision to Webber who was a rookie.
Wilson was no match for Bourdais - in a different car, years later, comparisons change over time. Trulli v Alonso anyone?
Davidson had 2 races in a car he had never driven before - but didn't worry Webber nonetheless.
Pizzionia is Pizzonia - useless insight. Pizzonia came into F1 as promising as any rookie.
Heidfeld was even with him - on pace? I think not.
Rosberg was in his rookie year - Hamilton has burst the notion that a top rookie cannot compete against an experienced teammate. JV, MS, etc have also proved it.
DC is on the way down since 2004 - or has been given a new lease of life at Red Bull, as DC himself claims.

So your rational is to undermine the competitiveness of each of Webbers teammates in order to bring down Webbers rating. So, how do you explain that Webber is currently outperforming a double WDC in Fernando Alonso despite the fact that although they share the same engine, the Renault is, by expert consensus, the better car???

[united]

When Mark raced in Williams he was nowhere near underrated.

This is an old story and coming from a famous comparison to Nick Heidfeld, but I remember vividly British motorsport media praised Mark in every possible way. F1 Racing went mad with some crazy scientific like analysis of his greatest talent and his driving style. Jones and Brabham were even portrayed as seriously discussing his prospects to become a champion.

He was also extremely popular with media during Jaguar times, especially when Purnell and Pitchforth were at the helm.

He received his fair share of publicity and I personally think his it was more than enough.

[howardt]

Webber is possibly the "unluckiest" of the current field, both in terms of team choice at the wrong time and mechanical problems while in points-positions.
I think it was Lord Nelson said "I don't care if he's a good general - is he lucky?"

[nja]

"Underrated" - not sure about this. I actually think there is a huge amount of respect for Mark in the paddock. But hiring driver these days unfortunately is not always about outright speed. Manufacturers are thinking of their target markets when they hire Germans, Finns, Brazilians etc. Plus the sponsors are to be considered. Being an Aussie doesn't help him in this regard.

"Of all time" is going a bit overboard - there are way too many hard luck stories over the last 50 years than just Mark Webber's career.

I think "unlucky" is a better word than "underrated". He has had the well documented reliability misfortunes and collisions that were not his fault (he was a MASSIVE chance to beat a cautious Hamilton in Fuji, before Vettel struck). Further he has been unlucky with his car choices (ie choosing Williams over Renault, etc). Most don't doubt his speed and i think he is showing this year that his racecraft is fine now he has reliability. He has been impeccable all year (although thought he could have nicked Alonso at Turkey - Alonso showed that WDC touch of class in winning that duel - they will have great battles this year. Battling Alonso is the benchmark Webber needs to show his wares, rather than vs DC).

Having said all that, as a big fan of Mark's, I think he has plenty of years left to rack up some wins in the right car. Don't think anyone would begrudge him that.

[Alfisti]

I dunno about that. Frankly he had one shot in a semi/sorta competitive car in 05 and over drove it a tad.

I don't think his pace can be doubted but we have no idea how he can race and no idea how he'd handle WDC pressure.

Truth is, we don't know how good or bad he is, simple as that.

[sopa]

Webber's reputation suffered in 2005 badly and has never seemed to recover. When he was in Jaguar, many said that he is the real deal and he had offers from several teams (Williams and Renault). In Williams he was expected to blow Heidfeld away, but this didn't happen. Instead of that he couldn't cope with the pressure and started making mistakes as Heidfeld was creating headaches to him. Theissen was really happy with Heidfeld and said he was the best driver he had ever worked with. Webber was destined to stay in Williams. Frank & Co's opinion fell about Webber too during the time they worked together and didn't see the "real deal" in him anymore like they did at the start of their cooperation.

After that his reputation had gone down and even teams don't show much interest in him (a lot of fans were disappointed that Renault didn't offer him a drive for 2007). Okay, Red Bull hired Webber, but their main priority was to get Montoya, who refused. Webber has said that he was actually surprised that Red Bull had shown interest in him. I think teams see "a Fisi" in him - a talented driver in an average team, but won't handle the pressure in a top team (I wonder that's the reason, why Fisi was overlooked for so long too). Webber is destined to stay at Red Bull for the rest of his F1 career... as long as he beats his team-mates, his seat should be safe though.

[Lontano]

Originally posted by Rinehart

Yoong was slow - in comparision to Webber who was a rookie.

i can't believe someone may argue that Yoong is one of the slowest drivers to drive a F1 in the last 10 years

Wilson was no match for Bourdais - in a different car, years later, comparisons change over time. Trulli v Alonso anyone?

I guess experience makes you slower...

Davidson had 2 races in a car he had never driven before - but didn't worry Webber nonetheless.

Nobody expected a guy who was not given a race chance at Honda in like 200 years to be any good if thrown at the back of the field in a dog of a car, maybe you did?

Pizzionia is Pizzonia - useless insight. Pizzonia came into F1 as promising as any rookie.

And has proven since that the promise was just hype

Heidfeld was even with him - on pace? I think not.

Are we talking ultimate pace of overall performance? i won't argue that Webber is one of the best qualifiers in the bussiness, but come race day there wasn't much between the two

Rosberg was in his rookie year - Hamilton has burst the notion that a top rookie cannot compete against an experienced teammate. JV, MS, etc have also proved it.

Rosberg is not as good as Hamilton or MS, JV's case was different, and he didn't look slow compared to Webber

DC is on the way down since 2004 - or has been given a new lease of life at Red Bull, as DC himself claims.

yup, but feeling better is not making he any quicker. he beat klien but not by such a big margin and he is not getting any younger.

So your rational is to undermine the competitiveness of each of Webbers teammates in order to bring down Webbers rating. So, how do you explain that Webber is currently outperforming a double WDC in Fernando Alonso despite the fact that although they share the same engine, the Renault is, by expert consensus, the better car???

My rationalle is that he hasn't "comprehensively outpaced" all of his teammates, and that some of those weren't that good to start with, or were on their rookie year, or in the sunset of their careers... The only valid comparisson would be against Heidfeld, and even if Webber was quicker over a lap, at the end of the day their performance was not that much different.

I'd like to know what "expert consensus" is that, as the Renault has only come strong in the last 2 races

[Alfisti]

Originally posted by Jhope
I don't know if I agree with your statements, but I do know that he would have had the chance to enter F1 with McLaren if DC and Hakkinen were not so good together. Do not forget that at the time (99-00) Mercedes were really backing this guy, and had huge expectations for him.

Well except blaming him for getting airbourne which he still resents today and so he should.

[Nobody]

I've been down this road before...

and the short answer is - no he is not underrated, he actually pretty well rated, but...

he is also not as good as some think he is...

He's had a great start to the year, wish him good luck for the rest of it. (he does deserve it)

[Digitaldrug]

Originally posted by sopa
Webber's reputation suffered in 2005 badly and has never seemed to recover. When he was in Jaguar, many said that he is the real deal and he had offers from several teams (Williams and Renault). In Williams he was expected to blow Heidfeld away, but this didn't happen. Instead of that he couldn't cope with the pressure and started making mistakes as Heidfeld was creating headaches to him. Theissen was really happy with Heidfeld and said he was the best driver he had ever worked with. Webber was destined to stay in Williams. Frank & Co's opinion fell about Webber too during the time they worked together and didn't see the "real deal" in him anymore like they did at the start of their cooperation.

After that his reputation had gone down and even teams don't show much interest in him (a lot of fans were disappointed that Renault didn't offer him a drive for 2007). Okay, Red Bull hired Webber, but their main priority was to get Montoya, who refused. Webber has said that he was actually surprised that Red Bull had shown interest in him. I think teams see "a Fisi" in him - a talented driver in an average team, but won't handle the pressure in a top team (I wonder that's the reason, why Fisi was overlooked for so long too). Webber is destined to stay at Red Bull for the rest of his F1 career... as long as he beats his team-mates, his seat should be safe though.

I seem to remember Webber being clearly faster than Heidfeld and being very unlucky at Williams. How did that damage his reputation? He made a few small mistakes from memory but nothing major that was reputation destroying.

[noikeee]

Personally I rate Webber as very close to the Kimi/Alonso league, but not quite there. Still, it'd be a shame if he never even gets a win, as he clearly deserves it. To get a sense of perspective, his team-mate, who Webber is clearly outpacing, spent 10 years(!!) in race-winning cars.

Webber's problem is that he isn't getting any younger, and right now there's a ton of new talented drivers coming up in F1. Teams will rather sign the Kovalainens, Rosbergs and Vettels, looking at the future, than a Webber, even if he is a bigger guarantee of short-term success. His best chance is to stay at Red Bull and hope they come up with a good car.

[Just]

Heh, this topic comes up all the time, and takes the same route every time. Here's the Cliffs Notes version.

Webber lover: Webber is the best/most underrated/unluckiest driver on the grid.
Webber hater: Why? He hasn't done anything special, like win a race.
WL: He's always had crap cars, so you can't expect him to win a race. Compare him to his teammates.
WH: All of his teammates were crap, though - who cares if he beat them?
WL: What about Rosberg? People rate him highly, and Webber thrashed him.
WH: He was a rookie.
WL: So? That didn't affect Hamilton. And what about Heidfeld?
WH: Heidfeld got a pole and more podiums.
WL: Heidfeld had better luck/reliability. His race pace wasn't as good as Webber's. And what about DC?
WH: DC has been heading downhill lately anyway. If Webber's so good, why doesn't a top team offer him a drive?
WL: Renault DID offer him a drive in '05, and BMW was rumoured to have offered him a drive too. Webber just keeps picking the wrong team. Plus, he's now considered too old, and is less marketable than the younger Europeans.
WH: Webber may be a good qualifier, but is a lousy racer.
WL: Actually, he beats his teammate more frequently in the races than he does in qualifying.

And that's pretty much the debate, only it keeps going around and around in circles from there, repeating the same crap over and over.

Meanwhile, for that last point - how Webber's actually done compared to his teammates - see my teammate comparison thread.

[Josta]

Heidfeld was even with him - on pace? I think not.

Well the fact is he beat Webber.

Best position Heidfeld = 2nd, Webber = 3rd.
Points Heidfeld = 28, Webber = 24.
Pole positions Heidfeld = 1, Webber = 0.

Webber beat Heidfeld 9 - 5 in quali, but you get points for the race, not quali.

Oh, and Heidfeld beat Webber in fastest race laps 8 - 5.

[GhostR]

Originally posted by sopa
Webber's reputation suffered in 2005 badly and has never seemed to recover. When he was in Jaguar, many said that he is the real deal and he had offers from several teams (Williams and Renault). In Williams he was expected to blow Heidfeld away, but this didn't happen. Instead of that he couldn't cope with the pressure and started making mistakes as Heidfeld was creating headaches to him. Theissen was really happy with Heidfeld and said he was the best driver he had ever worked with. Webber was destined to stay in Williams. Frank & Co's opinion fell about Webber too during the time they worked together and didn't see the "real deal" in him anymore like they did at the start of their cooperation.

After that his reputation had gone down and even teams don't show much interest in him (a lot of fans were disappointed that Renault didn't offer him a drive for 2007). Okay, Red Bull hired Webber, but their main priority was to get Montoya, who refused. Webber has said that he was actually surprised that Red Bull had shown interest in him. I think teams see "a Fisi" in him - a talented driver in an average team, but won't handle the pressure in a top team (I wonder that's the reason, why Fisi was overlooked for so long too). Webber is destined to stay at Red Bull for the rest of his F1 career... as long as he beats his team-mates, his seat should be safe though.

Sources please? Where are you getting these assertions about what others think of Webber? The consensus for the last year or so has been that BMW wanted Webber at one stage. Williams made it pretty clear when they announced Wurz that they wanted to keep Webber but couldn't wait while he pursued a possible opportunity that was way too good to pass up (ie, it wasn't the RBR deal - that was always the second option). Williams was pretty strong in his praise for Mark after '06.

I've never seen anything from Webber saying he was surprised to get the RBR offer, either. What has been said, repeatedly, is that he took the offer on Flavio's advice, and admitting that he should have followed Flav's advice two years earlier (signed for Renault instead of Williams).

I think the paddock (and Webber fans) recognises that Webber had a bad year in '05. I think they also fully accept his own admission that he was making mistakes because he was overdriving the car trying to find the performance he'd expected to be given, but didn't get - remember, the Williams won the last race of '04. '06 and '07 he showed pretty clearly that '05 was an aberration.

Having said all of the above, though, I do fear that Webber's missed the boat in terms of landing a race-winning car at the peak of his career. '05 and '06 in the Renault I firmly believe he would have put more pressure on Alonso than Fisi ever did, and he's now lost that opportunity to really show us what he can do ... unless RBR gets it right next year with the new regulations.

[Josta]

Having said all of the above, though, I do fear that Webber's missed the boat in terms of landing a race-winning car at the peak of his career. '05 and '06 in the Renault I firmly believe he would have put more pressure on Alonso than Fisi ever did, and he's now lost that opportunity to really show us what he can do ... unless RBR gets it right next year with the new regulations.

I would agree with that. The RBR and the Regie seem pretty evenly matched at the moment, and every race it seems like it is a personal race for botr between Alonso and Webber.

[Rinehart]

Originally posted by nja
"Underrated" - not sure about this. I actually think there is a huge amount of respect for Mark in the paddock. But hiring driver these days unfortunately is not always about outright speed. Manufacturers are thinking of their target markets when they hire Germans, Finns, Brazilians etc. Plus the sponsors are to be considered. Being an Aussie doesn't help him in this regard.

Redbull are easily the most marketing savvy brand on the grid. If Mark is good enough for them, his passport is NOT the problem with regards to landing a top drive.

Talent, availability and decisions gets you drives.

[Alfisti]

The main reason he does not have a winning car is he's not a stand out "driver of a generation" but he's too fast and too hard headed to be a number 2 the way Kovalainen is.

[FPV GTHO]

I'd hardly call him the most underrated of all time. Some of the glory hunter responses he gets from some fans prevents that, and causes others to believe hes overrated. I think enough people in F1 believe in his skill, for instance in the 2007 F1 review Peter Windsor compared Massa, Webber and Kubica and rated them about equal. If he'd treated 2005 differently it could all be different. Whether thats had he taken the Renault drive or simply kept a level head in the Williams during the first half.

[potmotr]

I like Webber but I think he let his head go down at Williams far too much.
At the moment I still regard him as a Jarno Trulli character.
The most under rated driver of all time would have to be Scott Dixon.
Why he never got an F1 chance I'll never know.