100 replies to this topic

[SeanValen]

I was reading the articile by atlas about Nick's concern in not getting the best out of the car, this combined with Kubica's better performances is a possible dangerous situation.

For a while now, even when Heidfeld did well, he was never popular enough to be getting major stardom points for it, yet true f1 fans, the loyal and dedicated bunch like you and me knew he was a very capable driver, he put some pressure on Mark Webber as well. While we always felt he lacked something to put him anywhere near Kimi-Hamilton-Alonso territory and definately MS territory lol, we knew he wasn't a liability.

He enjoys driving in f1, but when Kimi went to Mclaren and not Heldfeld, it was clear, he may never ever challenge for a championship, but would be a good driver for a rising team until they became top team.

Now don't let my title be taking too seriously, but I think it's a dangerous season for Nick, with BMW getting better, and Kubica getting attention, and even Nick admitting to not doing well, and making no excuses for it, he's on shakey waters, while never being a fan of the man, I appreciate the quiet way he goes about his driving, never really in any feuds, no quest for vanity, grows a beard, he enjoys being in f1, and usually did a solid if not sensatation job in keeping teams happy and scoring points, while he may never reach the stardom of top drivers, and being from Germany, never really was going to be Germany's no 1 when Schumacher was the no 1 star perhaps all time for the nation, I've appreciated some of his performances.

So I'm a bit puzzeled of his current problems, I prefer the old Nick pushing Kubica in the way Nick stood out a bit with Webber and Kimi at times, the lifespan of some drivers you think are safe is not always going to happen. Ralf Schumacher quietely exited the sport, so a very important season this for Nick.

[Alfisti]

I said it when he was paired with Webber, in a mid field car he's gonna be great as he'll collect points but in a really fast and reliable car he lacks that last 10th over 18 races IMHO.

Probably still a "top 5" driver but you can't help but feel some other guys are quicker than him.

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by Alfisti
I said it when he was paired with Webber, in a mid field car he's gonna be great as he'll collect points but in a really fast and reliable car he lacks that last 10th over 18 races IMHO.



Probably still a "top 5" driver but you can't help but feel some other guys are quicker than him.

:up:In concurment
Shall we say
The Fisi of Germany

[potmotr]

Originally posted by SeanValen


Shall we say
The Fisi of Germany

No way is he the Fisi of Germany.
Nick is my favorite driver because he goes about his business quietly and efficiently.
But if you scratch the surface he is cooler than almost any driver on the grid.
He really knows his music, collects art, has a style all of his own, and is a chilled out family man.
Above all he is apparently hillarious with his mates.
No, he's not in the top four of Hamilton/Kubica/Alonso/Raikkonen but I think he's certainly as good as Massa or Webber or Kovalainen. And he makes so few mistakes. When was the last time you remember him taking off a front wing, crashing out of the race (or crashing anywhere) or making unforced errors? His pace is metronomic. Yes, he's having trouble with this year's car, and getting this year's tyres up to temperature in qualifying. But lets not forget how well he did last year. And also, Kubica is a talent on par with Hamilton.
I think he should be cut some slack.

[united]

The underlying problem for Nick Heidfeld this season is his inability to use F1.08 to the maximum during one fast Q lap. This fact is universally acknowledged by many recent articles/comments and related to Nick Heidfeld's particularly soft and smooth style - an opposite to Robert Kubica's aggressive efforts. Race wise Nick Heidfeld is definitely on a level and, possibly, even exceeds Robert Kubica. After 5 rounds Nick is only 4 points away from Robert with both drivers suffered from at least one pointless week-end.

Being almost a lifelong fan since he raced in F3000 (those were the days...) I can't possibly agree that Nick Heidfeld is suddenly in danger. There were some promising results in Istanbul, where he actually passed first two sectors in Kubica's tempo during Q, with some extra fuel. Yet a huge mistake (possibly related to this cold tyre issue) left him behind. I keep noticing that Robert Kubica generally uses less fuel in Q by default, so fuel-corrected Nick is not that far away.

But alas, since I feel the need to use some should/would/could constructions in defending Heidfeld, Nick's public image has really deteriorated a bit. Either way I think it is too premature to make some judgment. I am sure Nick is prudent enough to understand the situation perfectly well and I hope he will be able to confute recent decay with some strong results.

[Alfisti]

Originally posted by SeanValen
The Fisi of Germany

Not even close, I think he's way better and mentally much tougher.

[Alfisti]

Maybe he just needs to qualy a bit lighter?

[potmotr]

Originally posted by Alfisti


Not even close, I think he's way better and mentally much tougher.

Not to mention a far better racer. Heidfeld nearly always makes up places at the start and can overtake other quick cars when necessary. Just look at Bahrain last year. He nailed Alonso. And the move was clean and fair and didn't involve noses being broken off or tyres cut. Fernando has said he enjoys racing with Heidfeld. I think the only time I can remember Heidfeld crashing when overtaking is when he was Schumachered in Australia 2005.

[taran]

Originally posted by potmotr


No, he's not in the top four of Hamilton/Kubica/Alonso/Raikkonen but I think he's certainly as good as Massa or Webber or Kovalainen.

I think you are sadly underestimating Massa. Heidfeld is a solid driver, a safe pair of hands if you will. But he never astonishes you with drives that show that little bit of sparkle like the truly great drivers do.

Massa is slightly erratic and suspect under pressure but his raw pace is way beyond Heidfeld's. You could imagine Massa winning a WDC with a bit of luck. In contrast, you can only imagine Heidfeld inheriting a win.

[Bluesmoke]

Heidfeld has been moaning about the Kimi situation for years. Now he finally has a car that can put some pressure on the Ferraris and Mclarens. I think the problem with him is that he's not much of a leader, "take charge" guy, and this is what you need to push your engineers (ala Alonso and the miracles being performed at Renault now). Anyone remember the Villeneuve situation at Sauber? The fact that Heidfeld had to be told to improve his pace after JV left shows his inability to push himself.

People can't be who they're not. Heidfeld simply lacks that killer, driving on the edge mentality that guys like Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi posesses.

[Hacklerf]

I have to say Nick is one of my favourite drivers, i like how he goes about his business and through out his career he has proven to be fast and dedicated, remember him in the McLaren liveried F3000? he was awesome.

I feel perhaps that he hasn't got to grips with the handling of the BMW, and still suffers from some of the problems they en counted at the beginning of the year where as Robert has driven around them, but do not worry, Nick will just work harder, and return to the Quick Nick ways of before

[SirSaltire]

I have always liked NH. I think it was brave of him in the article to admit that he has concerns. We all know that in F1 the pendulum swings back and forward for most drivers. Its not gone NH's way so far this year compared to RK. How many times over the years have we seen a car suit one driver better than his team mate? I think the pendulum may well swing back in Nick's direction this season. Also is there not a danger of some posters being a bit 'fickle' after only a few races?

[tkulla]

Originally posted by taran


I think you are sadly underestimating Massa. Heidfeld is a solid driver, a safe pair of hands if you will. But he never astonishes you with drives that show that little bit of sparkle like the truly great drivers do.

Massa is slightly erratic and suspect under pressure but his raw pace is way beyond Heidfeld's. You could imagine Massa winning a WDC with a bit of luck. In contrast, you can only imagine Heidfeld inheriting a win.

They were teammates in 2002 - qualifying went 11-5 for Heidfeld. Yes, it was Massa's rookie year, but we're talking raw speed here, not consistency over a race. Personally, I think that if Nick was driving a Ferrari last year he would have been the WDC.

[united]

Originally posted by potmotr
I think the only time I can remember Heidfeld crashing when overtaking is when he was Schumachered in Australia 2005.

Jean Alesi could tell you a story about some stormy races in 2000. Off the top of my head France and Austria ended with a crash. But it was a long time ago.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by tkulla


They were teammates in 2002 - qualifying went 11-5 for Heidfeld. Yes, it was Massa's rookie year, but we're talking raw speed here, not consistency over a race. Personally, I think that if Nick was driving a Ferrari last year he would have been the WDC.

There is no "raw speed".

[howardt]

Originally posted by united
Nick's public image has really deteriorated

It's the beard, y'know...
Seriously, I get the impression that an F1 driver has to be completely self-centred and certain that the entire world is there for his (/her) benefit, in order to be successful*. I mean, if you're not prepared to push your grandmother under a train to win a psychological edge over your opponent, then you're on the back foot from the outset. The rollcall of F1 champions seems littered with people you wouldn't want as a friend. I think Nick falls into the category of being far too reasonable and nice.

<*Howardt expects to be deluged with exceptions to his made-up rule>

[bankoq]

Originally posted by united
After 5 rounds Nick is only 4 points away from Robert with both drivers suffered from at least one pointless week-end.

You've fogotten one very important factor. BMW's car's muuuuch faster than all the rest apart from Ferrari & McLaren. If there was any other team let's say 0.1-0.2s behind them Nick wouldn't have finished his races just behind Robert; therefore, the difference in points would be certainly bigger.

I have nothing against him, he's very consistent & great points collector. It's good that after all these years he has a good car finally. I think MT don't even think about dropping him; actually, there's no better driver available on the market.

[Crazy Ninja]

Originally posted by united


Jean Alesi could tell you a story about some stormy races in 2000. Off the top of my head France and Austria ended with a crash. But it was a long time ago.

Didnt he drive into Kubica also at Nurburgring last year?

[Ramses1348]

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja


Didnt he drive into Kubica also at Nurburgring last year?

and into ralf also ...

[pingu666]

'ring was a crashfest for him, think he turfed off ralf or jarno aswell... and one of the bmw's clipped lewis'es rear tyre that deflated

otherwise he is a safe pair of hands, just needs to get his qualy sorted

[Walsingham]

'ring was a crashfest for him, think he turfed off ralf or jarno aswell... and one of the bmw's clipped lewis'es rear tyre that deflated

His youngest child was just born so he lost some focus probably.

This season his only (but quite big )problem is q3 speed. Maybe he 'll regain some ground in Monaco if it will be wet. He tend to do well in wet races.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by SeanValen
Shall we say
The Fisi of Germany

I don't think he's comparable with Fisichella.

Ignoring that Fisi has wins and Nick doesn't, I would give Nick credit that during a season he pretty much performs to a linear standard without peaks and troughs. He can fluctuate from season to season but I don't really believe he does during a season. Fisichella meanwhile, to anyone who has watched at least two of his races, could in fact be called the Coulthard of Italy, because both can be way up high one week and way down low the next.

In one way I am impressed with Heidfeld's candidness in discussing his current situation but to be honest I think he is overstating the situation. Yes he's been behind Kubica this season but it's not like he's been ten places behind every race. As they say, the first person to beat is your teammate, so I can understand why he is saying what he is saying. In another way I am wondering why he has been so candid, as all that's going to do is sow the seeds of doubt in future employers minds, whether that be BMW or anyone else.

Good to see some honesty in F1 though instead of the nonsense that comes out of the mouths of most drivers, especially the old timers who insist they are as good as back in the day.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by Bluesmoke
Heidfeld has been moaning about the Kimi situation for years.

This is not some kind of glove-slap-across-the-cheek challenge to you, but in all truth has Heidfeld ever moaned even once about the "Kimi situation", never mind "for years"?

People like to believe it's true, but is it?

I think I recall one interview in F1 Racing many years ago where he was asked about it and replied along the lines of it of course not being his favourite moment in his career, but it was asked in an interview and fair play he answered it. I don't however recall entire scrapbooks worth of press cuttings with Nick stamping his feet, swearing, and saying it's not fair.

[cardin]

Originally posted by tkulla


They were teammates in 2002 - qualifying went 11-5 for Heidfeld. Yes, it was Massa's rookie year, but we're talking raw speed here, not consistency over a race. Personally, I think that if Nick was driving a Ferrari last year he would have been the WDC.

He also outqualified Kimi in 2001.

[Rinehart]

Form is temporary, class is permanent and all that.

BMW seem to have the ideal driver line up at the moment. Clearly Kubica is starting to show signs that he is top drawer material, so Heidfeld is at best, going to give Kubica pressure - a la Massa on Kimi at Ferrari, or at worst a good developer, a good team player, a good point scorer and a good number 2. The later I suspect is more likely, as Kubica has gained experience, though the fact that the form guide between Nick and Bob clearly changed, with the new car, illustrates that its mainly a set up problem, rather than a talent problem, for Nick.

I fail to see why BMW would want, say, Alonso to come in and jeopardise that, in the same way as Ferrari clearly don't.

[Tenmantaylor]

Invisible

[BlackCat]

and in his invisible way has turned from wannabe into hasbeen. hope 08 is his last year in f1.

[united]

Originally posted by Imperial

I think I recall one interview in F1 Racing many years ago where he was asked about it and replied along the lines of it of course not being his favourite moment in his career, but it was asked in an interview and fair play he answered it. I don't however recall entire scrapbooks worth of press cuttings with Nick stamping his feet, swearing, and saying it's not fair.

He definitely maintained a big pause after Kimi was chosen and then made comments for nearly every journalist who asked. Besides in 2002 Kimi was thrashed by DC so it was not necessary for media to compare Kimi to Nick. In 2003 the story got better for Kimi but sadly Nick's career made an unexpected dive and he was beaten massively by Frentzen. So overall maybe this is the reason why Kimi/Nick comparison has always been flawed a little.

The great thing in Nick is that he talks. I have never heard any hint of corporate nonsense, any desire to conceal the real situation with some pointless bravado. This is a real driver talking about some real problems. I can't imagine Heidfeld saying "I am as good as Hamilton" (this is what DC famously said last year). And I don't think this peculiarity turns him into an invisible person, quite reverse.

[Atreiu]

Originally posted by SeanValen


:up:In concurment
Shall we say
The Fisi of Germany

Fisi of Germany?
Not even close.

[scottb32]

I think NH is in "danger" of being snapped up by another top-level team wishing to bolster experience or consistency. BMW/Sauber would be ill-advised to let him go. He would be a good second driver at Ferrari or McLaren, or a great replacement at Williams, Toyota, Honda, Red Bull, or Renault. Remember: points=$$$. NH earns ponts.

[giacomo]

Give Heidfeld a Ferrari or McLaren for two years. If he fails to win a title, I'll write him off as well.

[Jerome]

Originally posted by BlackCat
and in his invisible way has turned from wannabe into hasbeen. hope 08 is his last year in f1.

Yet I predict, that once again, Heidfeld at the end of the year will have more points than his teammate, in this case: Kubica. And again people will say he was lucky, just 'sitting there', or whatever. People tend to forget that in the end Andretti beat Peterson (and yes, I know about the number 1 contract for Andretti), Scheckter beat Villeneuve, Lauda beat Prost. Everytime the other driver was considered the faster one, the more talented one. But in the end the 'just sitting there' person won.

[Bogs]

Originally posted by giacomo
Give Heidfeld a Ferrari or McLaren for two years. If he fails to win a title, I'll write him off as well.

Unfortunately, things work the other way around. Show me you are really fast, and you will get a Ferrari or Mclaren.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Bogs


Unfortunately, things work the other way around. Show me you are really fast, and you will get a Ferrari or Mclaren.

You mean, just like Kovalainen or Massa demonstrated being the next big thing before getting such a drive?

[Ferrim]

Originally posted by Bogs


Unfortunately, things work the other way around. Show me you are really fast, and you will get a Ferrari or Mclaren.

What team do you mean by "Ferrari"?

Because it cannot be the team Felipe Massa is driving for at the moment.

And you could also apply that to Lewis Hamilton at the start of the 2007 season.

Edit: oh giacomo, please make use of your indicators the next time you try such a risky overtaking, this is not racing!

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Jerome

Yet I predict, that once again, Heidfeld at the end of the year will have more points than his teammate, in this case: Kubica. And again people will say he was lucky, just 'sitting there', or whatever. People tend to forget that in the end Andretti beat Peterson (and yes, I know about the number 1 contract for Andretti), Scheckter beat Villeneuve, Lauda beat Prost. Everytime the other driver was considered the faster one, the more talented one. But in the end the 'just sitting there' person won.

Hear, hear.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Ferrim

Edit: oh giacomo, please make use of your indicators the next time you try such a risky overtaking, this is not racing!

Sorry for that. It was just too tempting.

[barteks]

Originally posted by SirSaltire
How many times over the years have we seen a car suit one driver better than his team mate?

I would say it has nothing to do with a car. It's just Kubica showing his true pace thanks to knowledgeable race engineer and lack of technical failures. Kubica said that last year he didn't struggle with the tyres. It was just an excuse. He had an incompetent engineer and unreliable car. That's it.

[Spunout]

In some ways Heidfeld was unlucky in 2001. Here we have this guy who has done F3000, loads of testing with McLaren and one full season with Prost. And other guy who lacks experience and barely managed to obtain superlicense. The thing is, at the moment when McLaren made their choice, KR was performing better. It was the first races and the last ones (after the announcement of McLaren contract, it was reported that KR no longer received all the newest parts...because of Sauber-Ferrari connection?) that nudged overall stats to the favour of NH.

The problem is nobody knows how much exactly Kimi has improved - and the same applies to Nick. Perhaps Kubica and Heidfeld could give Ferrari/McLaren boys, given equal cars? Unfortunately for Quick Nick, events from 2001 onwards have made his reputation as "new Schumacher" disappear. And that´s bad.

Beating Kubica would be Nick´s last chance, IMHO.

[Digitaldrug]

Originally posted by Rinehart
Form is temporary, class is permanent and all that.

BMW seem to have the ideal driver line up at the moment. Clearly Kubica is starting to show signs that he is top drawer material, so Heidfeld is at best, going to give Kubica pressure - a la Massa on Kimi at Ferrari, or at worst a good developer, a good team player, a good point scorer and a good number 2. The later I suspect is more likely, as Kubica has gained experience, though the fact that the form guide between Nick and Bob clearly changed, with the new car, illustrates that its mainly a set up problem, rather than a talent problem, for Nick.

I fail to see why BMW would want, say, Alonso to come in and jeopardise that, in the same way as Ferrari clearly don't.

Because Alonso gets the job done and so far neither BMW driver has. Kubica for all of his hype this year hasnt come close or even been a contender of any nature to winning a race so to say 'who needs Alonso' is a bit rich. I would actually get rid of Kubica and get Alonso to partner Heidfeld. Kubica would just get in Alonsos way in qualifying and disrupt his Sunday job a bit too much.

[thuGG]

Alonso this year hasnt come close or even been a contender of any nature to winning a race. Does that mean that Alonso is not any good? Or you just forgot that to win you have to have the winning car?

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Digitaldrug

Because Alonso gets the job done and so far neither BMW driver has. Kubica for all of his hype this year hasnt come close or even been a contender of any nature to winning a race so to say 'who needs Alonso' is a bit rich. I would actually get rid of Kubica and get Alonso to partner Heidfeld. Kubica would just get in Alonsos way in qualifying and disrupt his Sunday job a bit too much.

So far Alonso did not get the job done at Renault. Nobody knows if he would at BMW.

And nobody knows if Alonso would be able to beat Kubica or Heidfeld.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by Digitaldrug


Because Alonso gets the job done and so far neither BMW driver has.

What a idiotic statement.

BMW is 3rd strongest team yet they lead McLaren in WCC. Contrary to reds and silvers, BMW drivers did not make mistakes in race that put them out of points. If anything they are most consistent driver pairing this year.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by thuGG
Alonso this year hasnt come close or even been a contender of any nature to winning a race. Does that mean that Alonso is not any good? Or you just forgot that to win you have to have the winning car?

Last year Arrow made it clear having great cars is all about your development skills. He told us with Alonso, Renault will be back on form. Then, I suppose he either got banned (again), or simply picked up another username to "erase" his earlier statements. Not the first time, in 2005 former JPM supporter called "Juan" was born again as Fernando Alonso fan.

Hmm. Why am I talking about Arrow? I must have mixed him up with another poster...;)

[MortenF1]

Heidfeld was formidable last year, but in my eyes (and many others) I felt that we didn't see the "real" Kubica often enough. This year though, he's been performing to the level that looked likely following his '06-races, so as expected Heidfeld is behind.
I think Heidfeld can extract more from himself and the car, and once (when) he does that, Kubica will be pushed hard, and beaten from time to time.

Heideld is seriously good, but hasn't quite got the raw speed to match Kubica.

[HoldenRT]

Originally posted by united
The underlying problem for Nick Heidfeld this season is his inability to use F1.08 to the maximum during one fast Q lap. This fact is universally acknowledged by many recent articles/comments and related to Nick Heidfeld's particularly soft and smooth style - an opposite to Robert Kubica's aggressive efforts. Race wise Nick Heidfeld is definitely on a level and, possibly, even exceeds Robert Kubica.

Nick's a very good driver and this is his only weakness probably, but it's not just with this car where he has had the problem. It's been a problem for a while imo, and it's the only thing that seperates him from the top guys. Everything else, he's as good as any.

[HoldenRT]

Originally posted by Gemini


What a idiotic statement.

BMW is 3rd strongest team yet they lead McLaren in WCC. Contrary to reds and silvers, BMW drivers did not make mistakes in race that put them out of points. If anything they are most consistent driver pairing this year.

[Digitaldrug]

Originally posted by giacomo
So far Alonso did not get the job done at Renault. Nobody knows if he would at BMW.

And nobody knows if Alonso would be able to beat Kubica or Heidfeld.

Alonso has a crap car so hes limited. The BMW is a rocket ship so the bmw drivers have no excuse.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Digitaldrug

Alonso has a crap car so hes limited. The BMW is a rocket ship so the bmw drivers have no excuse.

BMW, the 3rd best car on the grid. A rocketship? Not in my book.

[Hippo]

It remains to be seen whether the street circuits (3 this year) and tracks like Suzuka, Spa fit Kubica's style. Being aggressive like Kubica is not an easy thing between the walls. And the tire heating problem of Heidfeld's should be non-existant in Spa with it's enormous lap length. Also wet conditions are more in favour of Heidfeld in my opinion.