79 replies to this topic

[ensign14]

OK, perhaps I should not post this, but I could not resist.

You know everyone ripped a new one in Alan Henry with his list of top 100 Formula 1 drivers?

Well, I think it's possibly fair to say that this is the worst list ever.

Full thing here

How bad could it be? Well, let's put it this way...Shirley Muldowney and Steve Kinser are in there.

Moss, Ascari pere et fils, Nuvolari, Rosemeyer, Caracciola, any Hill, Gurney, Ickx, Hakkinen, Bordino, Wimille, Brooks, Brabham, Hunt, Rosemeyer, Nazzaro, Chiron and Varzi are not.

[BMW_F1]

Here is the other part . the following were the voters.

• Kenny Bernstein -- Six-time NHRA champion with four Funny Car titles and two Top Fuel titles.
• Terry Blount -- ESPN.com motorsports writer.
• Tim Brewer -- ESPN NASCAR commentator and two-time Cup championship crew chief.
• K. Lee Davis -- ESPN.com motorsports editor.
• Mike Dunn -- ESPN analyst for NHRA events and one of only four drivers with 10 or more career victories in Top Fuel and Funny Car.
• Ray Evernham -- ESPN NASCAR analyst and crew chief for three of Jeff Gordon's four Cup championships.
• A.J. Foyt -- Four-time Indy 500 winner.
• Scott Goodyear -- ESPN IndyCar analyst, former IndyCar racer and member of the Canadian Motorsports Hall of Fame.
• Jeff Gordon -- Four-time Cup champion in NASCAR.
• Mike Harris -- Long-time auto racing writer for the Associated Press.
• Dale Jarrett -- ESPN NASCAR analyst and 1999 Cup champion.
• Dan Knutson -- Formula One writer for ESPN.com.
• Ryan McGee -- Motorsports writer for ESPN The Magazine and ESPN.com.
• Juan Pablo Montoya -- Current Cup driver, 1999 CART champion, 2000 Indy 500 winner and former Formula One driver.
• John Oreovicz -- American open-wheel racing writer for ESPN.com.
• Richard Petty -- Seven-time Cup champion in NASCAR.
• Marty Reid -- ESPN motorsports broadcaster.
• Tony Stewart -- Two-time Cup champion in NASCAR and 1997 IRL champion.
• Rusty Wallace -- ESPN NASCAR analyst and 1989 Cup champion.

[AyePirate]

*sigh*

I am a life long drag racing fan and think it should get its due, but for the love of god.. :

[Vitesse2]

And only four of the 19 experts are on the list of 25 best drivers ....

[Spunout]

What can I say? The list is utterly ridiculous, as expected.

ESPN should compile top 25 of US, or top 25 of NASCAR. Just leave it to that. They already have 16 out of 25 from the US, so it is not like that woud change too much. Nobody from any other "foreign" racing series except F1, and even with F1 it´s mostly champs who raced in the US at some point (Mansell, Fittipaldi, no Moss etc).

I am wondering what Terry Blount´s world map looks like? Propably the same as infamous map Jeremy Clarkson displayed in Top Gear, where humongous England left the rest of the world look like ant farm. Ah well, I suppose ESPN know it´s the best to use "FOX strategy"; give the viewers what they want to see, hear and believe.

;)

[Andy35]

So many americans in the top 25 but when they come over here they are absolutely pants apart from Mario.

The only good US drivers either rode 2 wheels or did 600mph in somthing jet powered starting with the word

SPIRIT.

Pah.

Andy

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Spunout

I am wondering what Terry Blount´s world map looks like?

Well, according to Blount, AJ Foyt "did it all".

[JacnGille]

Originally posted by Spunout
What can I say? The list is utterly ridiculous, as expected.

ESPN should compile top 25 of US, or top 25 of NASCAR. Just leave it to that.

Better yet, they should just concentrate on stick and ball sports.

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by AndyW35
So many americans in the top 25 but when they come over here they are absolutely pants apart from Mario.

The only good US drivers either rode 2 wheels or did 600mph in somthing jet powered starting with the word

SPIRIT.

Pah.

Andy

What you drive is a function of where you were born. Talent is something that is fairly well distributed geography wise.
If Schumacher was born in North Carolina he might have been a stellar NASCAR driver instead of 7xWDC.
Why doesn't Montoya dominate in his new series if all of his competition is pants?

Why do you think that Americans do well in motorbikes and not in F1? Could it be that feeder series are more universal than in the 4 wheel world?



Xenophobia is unattractive no matter what side of the pond that it emanates from.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by ensign14

Well, according to Blount, AJ Foyt "did it all".

In the US, anyway. But I guess that is the same thing.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

The idea that different disciplines of motor sport require different skills appears not to have occured to them.

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by Spunout


In the US, anyway. But I guess that is the same thing.

Not that it is "all" but he did win LeMans when all the top drivers participated instead of the has beens and never beens of today.


I do think AJ is a tool, a talented one though.

[Jhope]

Wow...Shirley Muldowney ahead of Niki Lauda and Nigel Mansell and Bobby Unser...makes you wonder about these experts and their opinions.

[AyePirate]

Originally posted by Jhope
Wow...Shirley Muldowney ahead of Niki Lauda and Nigel Mansell and Bobby Unser...makes you wonder about these experts and their opinions.

The thing is I have a lot of respect for Drag Racers, but it's like putting cricket players on greatest soccer players list.

[BMW_F1]

The only reason I can see Mario and A.J all the way up there is because they are adding more weight to versatile drivers who have competed in various categories of racing.

[Spunout]

Here is my top 10

1) Mika Häkkinen

- legendary F1 champ from Finland.

2) Keke Rosberg

- legendary F1 champ from Finland.

3) Kimi Räikkönen

- legendary F1 champ from Finland.

4) JJ Lehto

- potential F1 champ from Finland.

5) Mika Salo

- potential F1 champ from Finland.

6) Heikki Kovalainen

- future F1 champ from Finland.

7) Michael Schumacher

- the most succesful F1 champ ever, and stuff.

8) Anthony Davidson

- not particularly succesful in F1, but once had Finnish gf.

9) Dale Earnhard Jr

- some dude from American NASCAP series, or something...

10) Spunout

- Semi-succesful "stock car"/ice track racer. From Finland.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
The only reason I can see Mario and A.J all the way up there is because they are adding more weight to versatile drivers who have competed in various categories of racing.

In that case, where is Juan Pablo Montoya?

F3000 champ, CART champ, Indy 500 winner, F1 race winner, NASCAR race winner/rookie of the year, etc. I´d say he is far more deserving than many of the names on that list. JPM has even raced in the US, meaning the voters don´t need Google to find out who he is.

[BMW_F1]

Mario gets my vote as the best by the way..He won in everything he raced, F1, SportsCar, Midgets, Stockcar.. you name it.

JPM comes second, he still has some more years to win the Daytona 500 and LeMans..

[Spunout]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
Mario gets my vote as the best by the way..He won in everything he raced, F1, SportsCar, Midgets, Stockcar.. you name it.

JPM comes second, he still has some more years to win the Daytona 500 and LeMans..

Not if CGR keeps stumbling all over the place

[Tigershark]

Originally posted by Spunout
I am wondering what Terry Blount´s world map looks like?

Possibly something along these lines: http://www.passionat...rld-450x315.jpg

Just let the Americans be...

[tifosi]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
Mario gets my vote as the best by the way..He won in everything he raced, F1, SportsCar, Midgets, Stockcar.. you name it.

I'll second that. The man was a sucess no matter what wheel he got behind.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Tigershark

Possibly something along these lines: http://www.passionat...rld-450x315.jpg

Just let the Americans be...

Priceless That´s more like world map according to George Bush, though?

Just kidding here. I am pretty sure all Americans here at AtlasF1 know better

[LukeM]

americans crack me up..

[Denier]

Serious xenophobia going on in here... God forbid an American list of drivers tend to focus on Americans... Wonder how that happened? I'm sure a European list would be much more representative of world driving talent. Europe is the world, after all.

[hobbes]

more like ignorance

[BMW_F1]

Originally posted by hobbes
more like ignorance

and ethnocentrism

[kamix]

That map is so gold!

Relax Billeh Bawb, it's all in good fun.

[sensible]

Originally posted by AyePirate



What you drive is a function of where you were born. Talent is something that is fairly well distributed geography wise.
If Schumacher was born in North Carolina he might have been a stellar NASCAR driver instead of 7xWDC.
Why doesn't Montoya dominate in his new series if all of his competition is pants?

Why do you think that Americans do well in motorbikes and not in F1? Could it be that feeder series are more universal than in the 4 wheel world?



Xenophobia is unattractive no matter what side of the pond that it emanates from.

nope, F1 is the pinacle. All driver in all series want to be there, and most drivers from other series fail. If you want the best circuit racing drivers in the world, by definition you are talking about F1 drivers. To say otherwise is a joke.

To say choosing F1 (a world series) over nascar (an american series is xenophobic is, um, a joke.

Montoya - perhaps - didnt dominate nascar for the same reason he didnt dominat F1?

[BMW_F1]

Originally posted by sensible

nope, F1 is the pinacle.

Of OW yes.. You are absolutely correct. Rally, Funny car, Stock car, Bikes are all different forms of racing as is open-wheel racing.

Originally posted by sensible

All driver in all series want to be there,

I wouldn't be so sure.

Originally posted by sensible

and most drivers from other series fail.

Last I check Mario Andretti won in midgets, sprint cars, INDY, NASCAR first, then went to F1 and won there. JV did not fail, JPM did not either, Bourdais is whipping Vettel, .....

Originally posted by sensible

If you want the best circuit racing drivers in the world, by definition you are talking about F1 drivers. To say otherwise is a joke.

you've said it.. OVAL racing (NASCAR) is not considered circuit racing. Rally is not considered circuit racing either.

Originally posted by sensible

To say choosing F1 (a world series) over nascar (an american series is xenophobic is, um, a joke.

I would say is preference. Xenophobic is saying Americans are suck at racing because they are American or race on ovals.

Originally posted by sensible

Montoya - perhaps - didnt dominate nascar for the same reason he didnt dominat F1?

Do you watch nascar as you do F1 to make this assumption?

[LB]

Top 10 isn't that bad actually. A bit strange on the order mind you.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's a personal ranking, it's no worse to have Steve Kinser on the list than to have Mika Hakkinen on it.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Denier
Serious xenophobia going on in here... God forbid an American list of drivers tend to focus on Americans... Wonder how that happened? I'm sure a European list would be much more representative of world driving talent. Europe is the world, after all.

When it comes to Motorsport? Yes, it is actually. Which is why Mario and AJ would or should at least get in the top 25. That list is barnacles.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
It's a personal ranking, it's no worse to have Steve Kinser on the list than to have Mika Hakkinen on it.

Are you calling the panel ignorant?

I actually liked the Senna piece - both Ecclestone and Lauda calling Senna the greatest driver who ever lived . . .alright, we'll put him 5th. But Andy Petree knows better.

[travbrad]

Originally posted by Spunout
Here is my top 10

1) Mika Häkkinen

- legendary F1 champ from Finland.

2) Keke Rosberg

- legendary F1 champ from Finland.

3) Kimi Räikkönen

- legendary F1 champ from Finland.

4) JJ Lehto

- potential F1 champ from Finland.

5) Mika Salo

- potential F1 champ from Finland.

6) Heikki Kovalainen

- future F1 champ from Finland.

7) Michael Schumacher

- the most succesful F1 champ ever, and stuff.

8) Anthony Davidson

- not particularly succesful in F1, but once had Finnish gf.

9) Dale Earnhard Jr

- some dude from American NASCAP series, or something...

10) Spunout

- Semi-succesful "stock car"/ice track racer. From Finland.

That about sums it up really, ESPN only broadcasts American series (NASCAR/Indy) so it's no surprise there are so many American drivers on the list. It's pretty dumb comparing drivers from different series anyway IMO. Even with drivers from the same series it's sometimes impossible to compare (how can you possibly compare the cars/tracks/situations of Fangio and Schumacher for example?)

[saudoso]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Are you calling the panel ignorant?

I actually liked the Senna piece - both Ecclestone and Lauda calling Senna the greatest driver who ever lived . . .alright, we'll put him 5th. But Andy Petree knows better.

Fangio is in this list. The way around.

For my fellow Finnish friends, here and HERE .F1's had hand brakes, huh?. Poor Piquet Jr!

See ya

For my The Us Of A friends, see Emerson's score against Andretti and Mears here

You can tell I´m waiting to things getting fixed, right?

Say no engine freezing rules!

And f* the guy that siad F1 is too loud.

OK, so Johny Red took over and I'm past bed time. PUI.

I was here and who dares to challenge me that this is THE sexiest F1 shape ever ?

[saudoso]

Gordon Murray is the best ;)

[Ross Stonefeld]

Why is Bernie's opinion on driving ability better than Petree's?

[yvonne.kk]

8) Anthony Davidson

- not particularly succesful in F1, but once had Finnish gf.

I think it should be James Rossiter

[Ross Stonefeld]

Davidson had a Finnish girlfriend and raced in F1 though.

[sopa]

Originally posted by Spunout
Here is my top 10

1) Mika Häkkinen

- legendary F1 champ from Finland.

2) Keke Rosberg

- legendary F1 champ from Finland.

3) Kimi Räikkönen

- legendary F1 champ from Finland.

4) JJ Lehto

- potential F1 champ from Finland.

5) Mika Salo

- potential F1 champ from Finland.

6) Heikki Kovalainen

- future F1 champ from Finland.

7) Michael Schumacher

- the most succesful F1 champ ever, and stuff.

8) Anthony Davidson

- not particularly succesful in F1, but once had Finnish gf.

9) Dale Earnhard Jr

- some dude from American NASCAP series, or something...

10) Spunout

- Semi-succesful "stock car"/ice track racer. From Finland.

You forgot Jarno Trulli, who has a Finnish name.;)

And what about Leo Kinnunen - he surely needs to fit in there somehow. You are vastly underrating him!

[pasadena]

It's interesting to see how people who live on the same globalized planet could be not even remotelz close to reality but live in their own closed world (with left turns only ;) )

[Spunout]

Originally posted by sopa


You forgot Jarno Trulli, who has a Finnish name.;)

And what about Leo Kinnunen - he surely needs to fit in there somehow. You are vastly underrating him!

Oops

Good points!

[ezequiel]

Stop with these lists please! They are leaving out a lot of motor racing series around the world and their respective drivers. One thing is trying to make the "best F1 drivers" or "best NASCAR drivers" of all time, but trying to make a list with the best drivers of all time randomly taking only a few bunch of series in the world is even more ridiculous.

[D.M.N.]

Definitely not. AJ Foyt is the best ever? Give over.

[pedrovski]

Originally posted by Tigershark

Possibly something along these lines: http://www.passionat...rld-450x315.jpg

Just let the Americans be...

[Peter Leversedge]

To suggest that Steve Kiner should not be on the list!! In the 30 years of The World of Outlaws
20 Championships
554 Feature Race Wins
Some Driver!!
Posted by a non American who has raced "turn left only" and "turn left and right"

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Peter Leversedge
To suggest that Steve Kiner should not be on the list!! In the 30 years of The World of Outlaws
20 Championships
554 Feature Race Wins
Some Driver!!
Posted by a non American who has raced "turn left only" and "turn left and right"

You do realize that there are lots of racers with great success in national series...?

Only the ones from American series - like Outlaws and NHRA - made it to the list. Even huge international stars from WRC, DTM or endurance racing were left out. Many of them had loads of success in several different categories. Not good enough, I guess. Yep, F1 was the only non-American series that ended up being represented on this list - and even then post-F1 career in America seemed to be THE crucial factor that helped eg Mansell get there. No need to mention national racing heroes from countries NOT called United States of America were left out, without exception.

I am sure Steve Kinser = great wheelman. Top 25 of U.S.A, sure. But this is top 25 of all times, supposedly on global scale. Now it looks like top 25 according to that fake world map posted by Tigershark. As fair and balanced as Fox News, Comical Ali during Iraq war, or Spunout when asked about Finnish racing heroes of his childhood.

All lists are questionable. This one was as bad as it gets.

[StefanV]

It is very popular to believe that this or that driver would have sucked in F1 because.... well simply because F1 drivers are so much better than others. Then someone like Mario Andretti comes up and becomes an exception. Sure, he was an exception, but I think Jeeff Gordon would have been one as well. And maybe David Pearson. Does anyone here really know how Richard Petty would have done against the F1 guys in the late sixties?
You don't. It is not important, it is just a list. But F1 drivers are not the best drivers in the world just because they drive F1.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by StefanV
But F1 drivers are not the best drivers in the world just because they drive F1.

My complaint regarding this list is less about F1 vs NASCAR than other things. Yeah putting Tony Stewart ahead of Alain Prost = plain silly, IMHO. Yeah there is clear NASCAR bias going on. But you have to ask what ESPN is covering and what their viewers like? Yep, NASCAR. It´s more about leaving out Sebastian Loeb, Klaus Ludwig, Jacky Ickx (F1...but 6-times Le Mans winner, Paris-Dakar rally winner, and so on), etc. Why compile top 25 on "global scale", if you don´t even bother using Google to find out about great racers with funny names and non-American nationality?

[StefanV]

Originally posted by Spunout


My complaint regarding this list is less about F1 vs NASCAR than other things. Yeah putting Tony Stewart ahead of Alain Prost = plain silly, IMHO. Yeah there is clear NASCAR bias going on. But you have to ask what ESPN is covering and what their viewers like? Yep, NASCAR. It´s more about leaving out Sebastian Loeb, Klaus Ludwig, Jacky Ickx (F1...but 6-times Le Mans winner, Paris-Dakar rally winner, and so on), etc. Why compile top 25 on "global scale", if you don´t even bother using Google to find out about great racers with funny names and non-American nationality?

All lists are biased, incomplete and silly. Nothing to get upset about.