79 replies to this topic

[9 Degrees 12 Min]

Anyone else out there wondering if AJ Foyt cast himself as the "best ever" on his own ballot?

Silly poll but I'm actually quite surprised a number of Grand Prix racing drivers made the top 25 - since nearly all the voters were of NASCAR heritage or USAC/CART.

[lil'chris]

Originally posted by Spunout


quote:
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Originally posted by BMW_F1
The only reason I can see Mario and A.J all the way up there is because they are adding more weight to versatile drivers who have competed in various categories of racing.
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In that case, where is Juan Pablo Montoya?

oops, when I read that comment I took it a bit literally and thought you were referring to his love of burgers

[MPea3]

It's a list from an American sports network, I don't really think you should expect anything that represents a historical or worldwide view. The list is a joke, but then again these sorts of lists always are.

By the way, the question about why bike racers from the US make it while drivers don't is kind of funny, because way back when I remember when it was a commonly expressed idea that US bikers could never make it in GP racing. It was only after the exploits of Cal Rayborn on his private Harley in the TransAtlantic Match Races that he (and subsequently others) came to the attention of those in the UK and Europe. Once Kenny Roberts crossed the pond and others followed him, there was no longer any talk of Americans not being able to compete.

Keep in mind though that for US road racers the only professional series, the AMA championship, was a series which combined flattrack, TT and road racing, with most of it being flattrack. If you wanted something more then GP racing it was. For US racecar drivers there was (and is) plenty to do here.

By the way, in more than one interview with Kenny Roberts I've heard him mention that racing dirt mile tracks in the US prepared him for GP racing and gave him an advantage when he went to Europe. He stated that the excessive power compared to the grip of the tires on the miles were very similar to what he found on GP bikes. While it's an easy (and mindless) comment to state that oval racing is just turning left, a turn is a turn, regardless of which way it is. A racer still has to get through it as fast as possible. In the end that's all that really matters.

[dutra]

A.J. is the all time best driver in the world and one of the top 5 of the U.S.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by dutra
A.J. is the all time best driver in the world and one of the top 5 of the U.S.

[Spaceframe]

Originally posted by sopa


You forgot Jarno Trulli, who has a Finnish name.;)

And what about Leo Kinnunen - he surely needs to fit in there somehow. You are vastly underrating him!

Indeed - he even pioneered the Finnish invasion of F1.

Another who should've been included is of course Henri Toivonen, who surely would've been an F1 legend, if he hadn't chosen to go rallying to earn a steady salary so he could support his young family.

[Flat Black]

Not surprised by the list, which is of questionable virtue. Even less surprised that it would elicit Europe's customary xenophobia, anti-Americanism, and Eurocentrism.

Puncture the bubble and the stinking crud comes oozing to the surface.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Flat Black
Not surprised by the list, which is of questionable virtue. Even less surprised that it would elicit Europe's customary xenophobia, anti-Americanism, and Eurocentrism.

Puncture the bubble and the stinking crud comes oozing to the surface.

Nothing to do with xenophobia, anti-Americanism or Eurocentrism. That´s BS. If you do global list where 16 out of 25 are from one country, and only ONE foreign/international series (F1) is represented, expect criticism. It isn´t anti-Americanism, let alone xenophobia. This is international racing forum, not KKK or Euro Elitist Club.

Where your "puncture the bubble" line comes from, I have no clue. I can only guess you are referring to the list, as it appears to be written by folks who live in bubble where 60-70% of best racers hail from U.S.A.

"Eurocentrism" is little more than myth created by ignorant people who think Europe is united place, comparable to country like United States of America. Lump all these weird European countries together, makes geography easier. Europe is about the same as America the Continent - different countries, different cultures, different languages, and so on. Being from Finland, I´d have easier time adapting to living in America (the country) than France or Turkey. If I didn´t recognize the differences between USA, Canada, Mexico and Nicaragua, I bet US folks would find that ignorant, or even insulting. Agreed?

PS. that map thingy is JOKE. Don´t take it seriously, ok?;)

[Spunout]

Country statistics:

USA : 16
Brazil : 2
Scotland : 2
Argentina, Great Britain, France, Germany, Austria : 1 each

Continent statistics:

North America : 16 (all from USA)
Europe: 6 (from 5 different countries)
South America: 3 (from 2 different countries)

Out of non-Americans, 2 raced regularly in American series. It is fair to assume success in the US put Fittipaldi and Mansell to the list, ahead of minor figures like Stirling Moss, Tazio Nuvolari, and so on.

[ensign14]

There is no such thing as Eurocentrism (except in Belgium). We've been knocking the bejeezus out of each other for three millennia. No way is someone from France going to promote a German to spite an American.

I repeat: the idea that Shirley Muldowney is better than Stirling Moss or Tazio Nuvolari would fulfil any definition of "********" you choose to pick. Nothing to do with nationalism or xenophobia or xenomisia. Indeed I could throw in David Bruce-Brown or Louie Meyer or Daniel Sexton Gurney as a better driver. There, is that sufficiently pro-American?

[Flat Black]

I was not, of course, refering to the criticism of the list, which is more or less valid. Rather, I was refering to the unwonted spleen directed at the compiler as the stereotypical ignorant American, and at the veiled shots at Americans in general that came in tandem with that criticism.

And if Europe is not an entity, please tell it to the autocrats at the EU who are busily annihilating the identity of European nations as the citizens of those nations swill their Amstels while watching the local side on the telly. So sad.

[ensign14]

^ You can say that again. You can't spell European unity without urine.

Unfortunately the original list was compiled by a number of Americans, more or less.

[Flat Black]

Exactly, ensign. And primarily for an audience of Yanks! Which is why it is totally unsurprising that it shows a clear American bias.

And so what? It's just a list. Have the BBC put one together and it will tilt heavily toward European drivers. You wouldn't catch me carping about it either. There have been a ton of fine drivers on the Occident just as there have been many great ones in the US. Trying to rank all those splendid pilots, particularly when many of them did not even compete in the same circuits (or continents!) is truly an exercize in futility. I mean can anybody prove conclusively that Foyt was better than Nuvolari or that Moss was superior Andretti? I have my doubts.

[ensign14]

I'm betting any top 5 list from the BBC would include 2 non-Europeans. Possibly at 1 and 2 as well.

[Flat Black]

And if you expanded the list to 25? I'd like to see the results. I really would.

[Spunout]

Have the BBC put one together and it will tilt heavily toward European drivers.

I´m sure you meant:

Have the BBC put one together and it will tilt heavily toward British drivers.

[Flat Black]

I suspect it would tilt in concentric circles. Most heavily toward Britain, then toward continental Europe, then toward other drivers who drove F1, then toward those who never drove F1.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by JacnGille
Better yet, they should just concentrate on stick and ball sports.

Balls are usually spherical, not egg shaped or oval. Whatever this shape is called, it sure as hell aint a ball

[FordFan]

No way to reasonably compare drivers that race in different eras in vastly different series. How does one compare Fangio to, say, Kinser? Everyone brings their biases to the table on this one.

Will say though, that Foyt was a great driver - anyone who denies this hasn't paid careful attention to racing. As others have mentioned, won a lot, in a lot of different kinds of cars. Maybe Shuey would have had even greater success, but we'll never know (would love to see him rally!). At least Foyt tried his hand.

[Tigershark]

Originally posted by Flat Black
I was not, of course, refering to the criticism of the list, which is more or less valid. Rather, I was refering to the unwonted spleen directed at the compiler as the stereotypical ignorant American, and at the veiled shots at Americans in general that came in tandem with that criticism.

Yes, stereotypes can be used to insult, but they can also be used for an innocent laugh. The way Americans organize national World Championships and have a history of staying somewhat to themselves is understandably funny to others, and there's no reason a little joke here and there shouldn't be made of it.

But anyway, today the 6th of June is a day where we all come together to commemorate the brave young men, American and European, who were instrumental in liberating Western Europe only 60ish years ago.

[Lifew12]

I'm very surprised my mum is not on this list.

[Flat Black]

Danica secretly popped out a kiddo? The media will be most interested.

;)

[Frans]

stupid list

[lil'chris]

Well said Tigershark.

[IOU 16]

Jeff Gordon is better than Rick Mears? Alain Prost? Nigel Mansell?

[fastlegs]

Originally posted by Tigershark

But anyway, today the 6th of June is a day where we all come together to commemorate the brave young men, American and European, who were instrumental in liberating Western Europe only 60ish years ago.

If it wasn't for those brave men myself and many others would not of been so fortunate to live the lives we have.

[speedmaster]

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Balls are usually spherical, not egg shaped or oval. Whatever this shape is called, it sure as hell aint a ball

And they call it football and play it with their hands..... Senna behind Enhardt and Andretti? Pure American.... they still think all planets orbits centered in Washington DC... what the heck....

[Spunout]

Originally posted by speedmaster


And they call it football and play it with their hands..... Senna behind Enhardt and Andretti? Pure American.... they still think all planets orbits centered in Washington DC... what the heck....

IMO Andretti deserves to be high on that list.

[grahamt]

The glaring omission of Daisy Duke, from Hazzard County, is confusing me. Not to mention her cousins.

[Risil]

Originally posted by Spunout


IMO Andretti deserves to be high on that list.

Any list that tried to put North American and European racing on an equal footing would have to put Andretti at the top. You wonder how he'd be viewed in Europe had Lotus never started messing around with undersides, and he used his considerable talents at a less dominant but more stable team. He might've won more titles, IMO, and he certainly would have run at the front more often.

IMO Mario is one of the few drivers around which an entirely credible case for 'Best Driver of All Time' can be constructed. I think he probably gets 10% of Michael's achievements, too, which can only support his case. But not strictly American, of course.;)