95 replies to this topic

[Jack-the-Lad]

This car is to be auctioned by Bonham's at Monterey in August. Does anyone know the chain of ownership since the 1970 Sebring race, and who carried out the most recent restoration?

Thanks.

Jack.

[Damien Duigan]

G'day Jack,

Grab a copy of Vintage Motorsport's May/June 2008 issue for a great spread on the car.

According to the article, the car was sold by Solar Productions and raced under the "Team Equador" banner. Later restored to 1970 Sebring livery and owned by the Mundy family since 2000, looked after by Vintage Racing Services in Connecticut.

That is the simple version.

My understanding is the car started life as a 908-022, a langheck built for Daytona in 1969 (for Strommelen/Ahrens) so began life as a works car. Updated to 908/2 spyder configuration by 28th of November, 1969 and shipped to Solar Productions on the 12th of December.

Overhauled after Sebring in 1970 at the factory and fitted with a newer engine for Le Mans.

Sold to Team Auto USDAU of Hans Dieter Weigel, who simply removed the cameras and carried on racing into 1971.

Sold to Guillermo Ortega’s Ecuador Marlboro Racing Team for 1973 and they fitted the chassis plate ‘908/02/018’ from their own wrecked 908/02.

Following the 1973 Le Mans race, Lothar Ranft drove the Porsche in several Interserie events.

Sold to Kurt Lotterschmid in Germany in 1974, then to August Deutsch who had Felix Gmachmeier fit a new body and then raced it.

Sold in this form to Raz Brezinka of R&H Racing in Canada and raced.

Sold to Bill Bradley Racing in 1980 and restored by Paddy O’Grady between 1980-82 using the original Flounder body sourced from August Deutsch.

Sold to Richard Attwood/Mike Ostroumoff in August 1982 and raced in SuperSports events from 1982-87.

Sold to Frank Gallogly in 1987 and retained for several months, then to Kerry Morse and raced.

Sold to Dick Barbour and on to Burkhard Von Schenk in Europe.

Sold to Bob Jordan on the 15th of January, 1989 and stripped down for a total restoration back to Solar Productions, Inc. specification, including a return to the chassis plate ‘908-0022’.

Sold to Joe Mundy in 2000 and active in vintage racing.

Any corrections/additions welcome.

Cheers,
Damien

[Jack-the-Lad]

Thank you, Damien, for that very thorough history. Goodness, 908-022 is certainly well-travelled.

Jack

[gerard BARATHIEU]

so ,if the car is in MUNDY family what is the car drove by A.DEUTSCH in this recent years.

I have it in NURBURGRING in 2001 and another time at MONTHERY some years later ?

[Ralf Pickel]

That I also would like to know - the car is much used by A. Deutsch (picture below is from Vernasca Silver Flag 2007 - he is a regular there and also entered 2008).
I have seen this car in many events here - always called the McQueen 908, see also the poster behind the car.

[Ralf Pickel]

Another photo from Vernasca 2007 :#

[Damien Duigan]

G'day again,

I wasn't aware of a second car claiming to be ex-McQueen/Solar Productions 908.

Does the 908 driven by Deutsch in recent years have a chassis number? Interesting that he was in the ownership chain of '908-022'.

Seems that Porsche provenance is just as much of a minefield as ... every other type of racing car.

Cheers,
Damien

[gerard BARATHIEU]

DAMIEN , do you have a hoto of the car belinging to MUNDY's family ?

[Damien Duigan]

G'day Gerard,

There's plenty on the web about the car. For example;

http://vintageracing...mcqueen908.html

Cheers,
Damien

[AMICALEMANS]

Thanks for this history Damien.
I believe this Porsche ran Le Mans a lot of time :
1970 : solar productions
1971 : Claude Haldi
1972 : (i dont remember the team)
1973 : (i dont remember the team)
1974 :Ortega Ecuador Marlboro Team
1975 : perhaps it is this car designed by Lothar Ranft but DNQ
http://photos24hlema...4&image_id=1839

What do you think ?

[AMICALEMANS]

and i found that on the web :

About the Steve McQUEEN'S 908, i found that !
http://www.racebaan....ng/ecuador.html
Translation:

ECUADOR MARLBORO RACING TEAM - LE MANS 1973
This Porsche 908/02 was also called the 908 Flunder. This car that was raced by the Ecuador Marlboro Rading Team in '73 and '74 does not only have a nice paintscheme, but there is more to it. Of course a model of this car should belong in a Porsche, Le Mans, Marlboro ot Gulf collection, but there is more... In the late sommer of 1972 Guillermo Ortega crashed his Porsche 908/02 during the 12 Hours of Yaguarcocha. The damage to the car appeared to be not too bad at first. But when the car was returned to the factory for repairs, the damage was more than the price of a nice second-hand model.

NICE SECOND-HAND MODEL
The useable parts were removed from the wreck and Porsche offered them the 908 with chassis number 022. That certainly was a nice second-hand model! This was the car that Steve McQueen drove to second place at Sebring. Besides that the car was used as camera-car and was owned by the Usdau team in '71 and '72. The team from Ecuador wanted to patricipate in the Le Mans 24 Hours with their "new" car, but that was not easy either.

CHASSISNUMBERS
The time to get all the paperwork done was too short. The car had to be registered on the name of the team from Ecuador. The car was in Germany and formallly had to go to Ecuador first and then to France to participate in Le Mans. The wreck of chassis #18 was also in Germany and before everyone knew it, the chassisplate of the wreck was transferred to the "new" 908.
The peron who was responsible for this trick was Lothar Ranft, the technical manager of the team. Lothar was an example of flexibility, because beside his technical wizardry he also participated in races sometimes.

FIVE TIMES LE MANS
Thanks to the trick with the chassisplates, the team from Ecuador could participate in the 24 Hours in 1973 and not without success. Guillermo Ortega and Fausto Merello (both Ecuador) drove the Flunder to a fine seventh place. This 908 would appear at the start of Le Mans again in 1974 and the car had participated in this battle of exhaustion for five times in a row. The third driver that year was... Lothar Ranft!

RETIREMENT
The 908 was far from retired after that and was raced until 1995. In the meantime it was restored to the state that it was in when it was raced in the Sebring 12 Hours in 1970 and is being used for expositions now. Lothar Ranft is not retired yet and was last seen in his car workshop in Ecuador.

[Alan Cox]

Beware of any car for which a spare chassis number is floating around...

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by Alan Cox
Beware of any car for which a spare chassis number is floating around...

Amen.

[Ralf Pickel]

So - I would still be very interested to know about the originality of the (still) A. Deutsch 908.
Obviously the one for auction from Mundy seems to be the real car than ?

[CJE]

From Competition Press 1970:

[Cynic2]

Apparently this 908/02 is to be auctioned at Monterey this year, presumably to take advantage of the current market for celebrity cars. (Such as the ex-James Coburn Ferrari 250 Caifornia Spyder which sold this month for almost $11M at Maranello; the underbidder for that car was the person who paid $2.3M for the Steve McQueen Lusso last fall.)


I would hope that a serious bidder for this McQueen 908/02, chassis 022, will know exactly what he is buying. Noted Porsche historian Bill Oursler examined this car some years ago -- probably 20 or more -- for a story for the American Porsche Club magazine. Bill knows the cars and had access to factory records and information, talked to quite a few people, inciuding the person who built a completely new chassis for Attwood, who was going to drive the car and didn't want a used-up chassis under his seat. There's apparently a W-shaped brace which is different between a Flounder and a Flounder rebodied as a coupe rebodied as a Flounder. (Damien, you may want to try to find a copy of this issue.)


I listened to Bill at some length yesterday, and I think all I really understood was that both the American car and German car have parts from the McQueen car, and possiby neither has very many of these parts. Bill wrote this story at a time when these cars weren't all that valuable; it was strictly to record the history.


There's so much money in this now I think I'm going to enjoy sitting back and watching history being rewritten before my eyes. Anybody wanna share some popcorn?


Cynic (and with good reason)

[tomkatf]

Originally posted by Alan Cox
Beware of any car for which a spare chassis number is floating around...

QED... right here!


Best,
Tom

[URY914]

http://www.autoweek....-1/newsletter01

Have a look

[jph]

According to the article linked in URY914's post:

"McQueen later drove the Porsche at the 1970 24 Hours of Le Mans, and using cameras mounted on the car gathered footage for the movie of the same name released the following year."

A further enhancement to the history of the car?

[AMICALEMANS]

The car competed 5 times at Le Mans so i am correct !

Who have a pic of the rebodied car par A Deutsch ?

[Damien Duigan]

Originally posted by Cynic2


I would hope that a serious bidder for this McQueen 908/02, chassis 022, will know exactly what he is buying. Noted Porsche historian Bill Oursler examined this car some years ago -- probably 20 or more -- for a story for the American Porsche Club magazine. Bill knows the cars and had access to factory records and information, talked to quite a few people, inciuding the person who built a completely new chassis for Attwood, who was going to drive the car and didn't want a used-up chassis under his seat. There's apparently a W-shaped brace which is different between a Flounder and a Flounder rebodied as a coupe rebodied as a Flounder. (Damien, you may want to try to find a copy of this issue.)

G'day Cynic and other celebrity car enthusiasts,

Thanks for the update - do you or Bill Oursler (who would know a helluva lot more about the 908 - and Porsche history generally - than I do) believe the original frame discarded by Attwood ultimately ended up under Deutsch's car or was this another one altogether?

The whole provenance thing is fascinating but such a minefield. It'll be amusing to see how much of the above history is recorded in the catalogue come August.

Cheers,
Damien

[AMICALEMANS]

i read somewhere that the genuine car had some hole on the chassis just to fut the camera during Le Mans 70... so what about asking Lothar Ranft

http://www.patiotuer...52571B60077F82C

http://www.paginasam...4756&ipa=6&ies=*&idi=2&qid=8040231564931469824

http://www.lotharranft.com/

[masterpiece]

More details for modelmakers on my new website

[Martin Roessler]

some footage i made a few years ago at the nuerburgring....

video porsche

cheers marty

[Cynic2]

Perhaps so. Perhaps "all" the Porsche experts do agree that this is 100% the real car. I guess I'd be more accepting of everything you wrote if it didn't read like an auction catalog, and if you weren't apparently a new member just to post this as a lead-up to the auction.

Do you claim that the second 022 has no significant parts from the McQueen car? That the original chassis exists, and is under the "priceless" car being auctioned next month?

I'm genuinely curious.

Cynic

[MKIVJ6]

[Andre Acker]

Maybe some parts of this car are the same used in McQueen's Sebring car ...
Maybe ...

About that being "the most historical long endurance race ever run" ... sorry but I do not agree !
What about Le Mans 1969, for example ?

André Acker.

[swintex]

Surely "most historical" just means "with the longest/most/greatest history" doesn't it?

It's a pretty worthless claim, I'd have thought.

Richard

[Ted Walker]

The article doesnt throw any more light on its history

[Wolfi]

The car has been withdrawn from the sale and is not in the catalogue or on the Bonhams website. Presumably there was a court injunction.

Regards

Wolfi

[Bill Harding]

I must be very unintelligent but I really cannot see what relevance the presentation of the Rene Dreyfus Trophy in 1995 has to the originality of this 908.
It would be nice to read the article by Bill Oursler from 1988.............
Perhaps DCN can shed some light on it's withdrawal from Bonhams?????????????

[Cynic2]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
The article doesnt throw any more light on its history

But it had very pretty pictures....


.

[Gregor Marshall]

Originally posted by Cynic2


But it had very pretty pictures....

Of which car/chassis though??

[JacnGille]

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall


Of which car/chassis though??

The one that they took pictures of.

[Cynic2]

I just noticed what certainly must be a printing error.


My copy of that same issue of "Vintage Motorsport" seems to be missing the phrase "Inside: Steve McQueen Renown Factory Porsche 908" from the cover.


And for that matter, knowing the editors and such of the magazine, I'm pretty certain they know the difference between "Renown", a noun, and "Renowned", an adjective, which would have been correct in the added phrase.


Very odd. Do we now have replica magazine covers, too?


Cynic

.

[Bill Harding]

It is missing from the cover of my issue as well, perhaps I have a censored version for the UK?
Strangely it does not appear on the cover of that issue shown on the Vintage Motorsport website....

[swintex]

I didn't notice at first (which annoys me at a personal level, being a bit typographically obsessed), but the font is completely out of character with the rest of the cover.

It looks suspiciously like Arial Black that's been squooshed to about 50% of it's natural length. Which is a mighty "NO NO" in professional layout terms.

You'd also have thought that it might have been given greater prominence…

Richard

[D-Type]

Originally posted by McQueenPorsche908
"Highlights of 1995 included Sebring’s presentation of the René Dreyfus Memorial Trophy to Bob Jordan for his 1969 Porsche 908 that finished second overall at Sebring in 1970 with drivers Steve McQueen and Peter Revson. This trophy was jointly presented by SVRA and Vintage Motorsport magazine."
Link to info above. http://www.september...art10Page1.html - Rico Steineman was there at the 1995 Sebring René Dreyfus Memorial Trophy presentation, supporting Bob Jordan's "Steve McQueen 908 Porsche."

Not quite accurate: The relevant part of the referenced article says:

The following week at Sebring Ernst Schuster was presented with SVRA’s inaugural René Dreyfus Memorial Trophy for his 1970 Porsche 908/02 Long–tail Spyder, the only survivor of three built. Awarded to the car having the most significant Sebring history, the trophy was presented by Ford Heacock, Sr., the father of SVRA’s founder

I read this to mean that of the cars present that day this one was considered to have the most significant Sebring history. To take it to an extreme, if the car had one component that had a Sebring history and no other car present that day had any it would fit the description.

And this thread casts considerable doubt on the phrase 'only survivor of three built' ...

[gerard BARATHIEU]

Note DUNCAN that the SCHUSTER 'car was 908/02/005 nothind to do with the JORDAN 's car.

[Cynic2]

Originally posted by Wolfi
The car has been withdrawn from the sale and is not in the catalogue or on the Bonhams website. Presumably there was a court injunction.

Regards

Wolfi

Our new member, his posts concerning "all" the Porsche experts, and his doctored magazine cover seem to have disappeared as well.

Cynic

[Damien Duigan]

Originally posted by Cynic2
Perhaps so. Perhaps "all" the Porsche experts do agree that this is 100% the real car. I guess I'd be more accepting of everything you wrote if it didn't read like an auction catalog, and if you weren't apparently a new member just to post this as a lead-up to the auction.

Do you claim that the second 022 has no significant parts from the McQueen car? That the original chassis exists, and is under the "priceless" car being auctioned next month?

I'm genuinely curious.

Cynic

Hey, if the auction company wants me as a copy writer I'm there!!! But seriously, I have nothing to do with the car or them, just an interested observer and was not at all surprised to see the car pulled. As I said earlier, I wasn't even aware of the second claimant in Europe when posting what history I had on the 908, and that's the whole point of forums like this - we learn something. And even you, Cynic, were presumably a new member once...

Cheers,
Damien

[Cynic2]

Damien,


I hadn't really addressed anything to you on this, so I'm slightly surprised at this response. I had no problem with your history -- I know very well (and first hand) the difficulties with histories, particularly when there is a second car tucked away somewhere. The comment about "all" the Porsche experts referred only to what our new member wrote in his now-removed posting.


Yes, I've been a new member -- twice, for that matter. I made a mistake in changing my e-mail for "Cynic"; Autosport's customer support or whatever never did reply to several questions, so it was easiest to just start over as Cynic2. HOWEVER: I didn't join apparently only to plug this one car for the auction, to write statements such as "all Porsche experts agree" that only the U.S. version of 022 was genuine, and to post a magazine cover without admitting I had altered it to plug the car being sold. This isn't someone adding to our knowledge of history. (If he comes back, if he does provide real information, I'll happily apologize.)


I discussed this car yesterday with a recognized U.S. Posche expert with very strong ties to Porsche's racing department; when polling all the Porsche experts, our new member apparently missed him. He told me that 022 was originally built and raced as a 908 coupe, then converted to "flounder" bodywork. This means that the McQueen car would have a notch in the firewall (I think that's the location) to clear the wiper motor used on the coupes. The "U.S." car did not have this notch when my friend inspected it 20 some 20 years ago; just the bodywork change would have no effect on this.


Like you, Damien, my only interest is as a spectator. I've chosen (and earned) my Cynic nickname after far too many years of watching new histories being written, many by auction companies (the Ferrari "412 S" is a good example, or the Chaparral I sold at Monterey a few years ago; apparently re-created from a three-foot length of tubing, the steering rack, and the dashboard).


I'm leaving for Monterey in a week or so, 31 years after the first time I went. In 1977 the Monterey Historics saw a few guys with neat cars; almost everyone knew everyone else, and the point was simply to have fun with some great cars. Two days at the track, Pebble Beach on Sunday, and back home. No problems finding a hotel or good restaurant. It's big business now, with big egos demanding an entry for the races, something like a dozen (?) auctions each requiring a more important car as a headliner, "must be seen at" parties, etc. All that has been lost is most of the simple enthusiasm for neat old cars. (Last year Steve Earle said that "if it weren't for Microsoft we'd all be out here playing with our $40,000 cars.") As I said, I really am a cynic.


I'm sorry you seem to feel I was attacking you in some way; I certainly didn't mean to do so. I know your work from a small group to which you and I both belong, and have the greatest respect for it.


Now, if you start writing creative fiction in auction catalogs, or faking magazine covers, we'lll talk again....

Best,


Cynic

[T54]

Some more interesting info from the person who is caring for the Deutsch car located in France. Mr. Deutsch has owned the car for over 25 years.

Chassis number tag on the chassis (for whatever that's worth...)



MUCH harder to reproduce or lie about, the actual tech sheet from the car at the 1970 le Mans race (which to me is MUCH more evidence than any chassis plate or tag...



I leave this to your consideration.
Regards,

T54

[Gregor Marshall]

Originally posted by T54
Some more interesting info from the person who is caring for the Deutsch car located in France. Mr. Deutsch has owned the car for over 25 years.

Chassis number tag on the chassis (for whatever that's worth...)



MUCH harder to reproduce or lie about, the actual tech sheet from the car at the 1970 le Mans race (which to me is MUCH more evidence than any chassis plate or tag...



I leave this to your consideration.
Regards,

T54

I don't know what a Porsche chassis plate looks like but that looks like a fairly easily reproduced plate!! Agreed on the tech sheet though - will be very interesting to see how this story unfolds......

[T54]

I agree that a chassis plate is VERY easy to reproduce... but how does one faking a car gets the document that absolutely proves the identity of the vehicle, regardless of how much it was repaired/altered in subsequent years?

[David McKinney]

An unscrupulous person might obtain such a genuine document from ebay or some other source, then use it as "evidence" to support a provenance claim of a similar car

[T54]

David,
With all due respect, be real. Do you REALLY think that such a document would surface on E-Pay and be sold to the very person who owns the very car concerned by said document, without an ARMY of historians seing and documenting it? In FRANCE? Where the use of E-Pay is at best, limited to a very small number of persons? Do you believe that Mr. Deutsch who has plenty of other things to do in his busy life is going to or have agents watching E-Pay 24 hours per day to make sure that the missing fuel pump switch will be sold at last by the person who stole it from the car while it was being repaired at Pierre's Garage in Saint Julien Les Trompettes in 1842?
It is so far fetched, I don't know where to begin.

The document in question is simply part of the file that followed this car since it was sold by Solar. Mr. Deutsch has a thick file on this car, purchased in 1982 when few really cared.
I am not saying that the car is 100% authentic since I do not know the whole story of its further races and repairs, that may include a chassis replacement at one time, I am saying that this car has a lot more chances to be the old axe-and-handle-repaired-a-few-times than the one apparently using part of the discarded handle and/or blade and represented at the Real Thing.
And by the way, Mr. Deutsch's car is not for sale.

Regards,

[MKIVJ6]

This this car have the notch for the windshield wiper?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by T54
Do you REALLY think that such a document would surface on E-Pay and be sold to the very person who owns the very car concerned by said document

No, that's not what I'm suggesting at all.
My hypothesis was that someone comes by such a document and - perhaps many years later - either acquires a car to go with his piece of paper, or sells the document to someone else who might want to make similar use of it

[gerard BARATHIEU]

we can't see very well the Carnet de pesage document.

could it be seen in a better way ?