41 replies to this topic

[NineOneSeven]

I missed the live Monaco race but managed to see the highlights this on ITV on Sunday. There was this awesome clip of a classic Honda being driven up the mountain road in Monaco.
It was like a cross between ‘Rendezvous in Paris’ and the opening scene in ‘The Italian job’
I really enjoyed hearing the high revving Honda being driven up the road with heel toe down shifts and all. At the end Jenson Button gets out, shame it wasn’t seamless and all in one shot.

I have been trying to find it on the net. Its not on the ITV F1 site or the Honda site. Well not that I could find it.


Did anyone see this clip or know where it can be found?

[pingu666]

i dont remmber seeing it

[Perigee]

Did it featuring him driving with a very smooth style indeed. And also being overtaken by a rock who took advantage of a gust of wind being blue-flagged past him?

[Alaweni]

I saw it and I agree that the old Honda looked pretty fun to drive and it sounded great. But, the way the camera cut in to show Jenson at the end I was left with the distinct impression that he didn't drive it...I thought it was "tv magic" where the just put that bit on the end.

[NineOneSeven]

I'm glad someone saw it. Yeah it looked to me that they had added him in at then end too. nevertheless the clip was very cool indeed.

I always wondered if modern Sequential box racing drivers are good at heel and toe down changes on manual car. Its a skill and talent in itself.

Just loved the sound track to that Honda being hustled up that road.

[Ross Stonefeld]

They all could do it, whether they had to at any point in their junior careers is another matter. Once you've been taught how to do it, it's very straighforward.

[CWeil]

Especially in most modern racing gearboxes, where you only need the clutch to get the car moving.

[pingu666]

can u guys remmber how far into the prerace coverage it was ? i recorded it for my dad, so i can just fast forward to there

actully i crawled out of bed at 2pm, so i did skip the prerace and watched the race on timeshift

[SevenTwoSeven]

It was quite early on iirc. I indeed thought it was very much like the opening sequence in the italian job, but without the plant thing in the tunnel

Heel and toe - i used to do that in my Iveco eurocargo whenever possible, usualy on smooth twisty roads when it was empty! great fun!

[parkiw]

It was a nice intro to the race.

Steve Rider's 'commentary', while the Honda was climbing up the hill, concentrated on how Monaco is the height of glamour; how it's every driver's dream to race there; how it's the career highlight for the select few that do get to race at Monaco, and especially in a F1 car; and so on. I was really, really, hoping that it would be Anthony Davison climbing out the car at the end, looking over the circuit with an air of glum resignation...

[kar]

I have to say I quite liked it. I was surprised, I was expecting Lewis at the end :-)

[kimbler]

They should have had Lewis flying in on his crane at the end, that would have been perfect

[Spunout]

Originally posted by NineOneSeven
I always wondered if modern Sequential box racing drivers are good at heel and toe down changes on manual car. Its a skill and talent in itself.

Heel and toe is skill that can be learned easily, no "special talent" required. I guess it looks impressive, but really is no big deal. Doesn´t take years to master, either.

[TickTickBooom]

It was Jenson driving. I recognised his hands straight away, as did several of my friends. Good thing about being a girl, we notice these things.

I'll have an ask about and see if I can get someone to upload it. Typically I didn't record the pre-race as I was expecting the usual Lewis-fest.

Edit to add: There's some clippage of Jenson driving the car here: http://jensonbutton....#/Video/Latest/ and I've also got someone who's going to try to upload the ITV footage for me in a couple of days.

[Tenmantaylor]

It was the opening scene to qual and the main race and it was great

Jenson was super smooth as usual but i dont think he had a choice given the machinery... it reminded me of that advert where the policeman with the speedgun can hear a car coming revving its bollocks off then it comes round the corner at 20mph in first gear ;)

[pingu666]

ah it was right at the start, i was probably on 8x fast forward so i missed it first time round

ticktick, pm ;)

[amardeep]

it reminded me of that advert where the policeman with the speedgun can hear a car coming revving its bollocks off then it comes round the corner at 20mph in first gear

Come on, it's only little ! 606cc, 57hp, not bad at all ... http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Honda_S600 The S800 was quite nice.

[TickTickBooom]

Jenson says in his website vid that it revs up to 9500!

[NineOneSeven]

Originally posted by Spunout


Heel and toe is skill that can be learned easily, no "special talent" required. I guess it looks impressive, but really is no big deal. Doesn´t take years to master, either.

I can heel and toe myself and have done so for a long while on track and on the road. No its not hard... thanks for sharing. I was just commenting how nice it was to hear the car being shifted like that. knowing the driver is doing the work himself rather than a ecu blipping the throttle.

I'd prefer to see the racing with it too... just my prefrence.
......................

I'll check for those uploads of Jensons drive. I loved the bit when the needle spins around to 8500rpm. Cool car.

Apart from the manual NSX, that another car I would love to own and drive. Nice Honda.

[Melbourne Park]

Funny how you guys think the Honda is cool. A Triumph Spitfire was much faster actually, and with a much tighter turning circle. The S600 had a chain drive I think, the S800 was more conventional. It did seem nicely screwed together - but 800ccs? A mate had two, we would go to Uni in it. They cost second had almost as much as a ratty MGB. One day I walked into his garage and he had taken the engine to pieces - for the fun of it. I thought I had lost my life to Uni, but he got it back together by the next day. It was fun to drive I guess, but not as much fun as something with some feel for the engine. The front driver Honda 1300cc was awesome (although a Coupe), it accelerated like a V8 back then. IMO a very significant car the front drive Honda 1300cc car - I forget what it was called. But must have been a test to see how FWD might work. It did, and it lead to the Civic and then the Accord I reckon, although I don't know if that was really what happened.

The best way to heal and toe is not to used the clutch - then you know your timing is right! Its quite easy to do it that way.

[soubriquet]

The AS285E. 606cc, 57PS at 8,500rpm. Not a bad looking piece of kit for 1964, and a lot less agricultural than anything from Triumph.

[NineOneSeven]

I think a lot of cars are cool. I am Porsche man myself, however I appreciate a variety of machinery, including American iron.

I think that motorcars are going to to go back to being smaller, lighter with fuel efficient engines. The Honda in question seems to be the future. Couple that with RWD and you’re on to a winner, a driver’s car.

I think it’s a real shame the new Fiat 500 is FWD with the engine in the wrong place. It looks as if the Panda that its based on his a better car (apart from the funky dials) however it doesn't have that fake 500 shell. The Nissan Micra look better to me, but then I may be alone on that one.

I am looking forward to seeing the new VW that is supposed to be coming out with the engine in the back, sub 1 litre, driving the rear wheels. I am sure it will be an instant hit.

[TickTickBooom]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Funny how you guys think the Honda is cool.

Why shouldn't we? We're obviously all petrolheads here. Oh, right. Because you don't. Okay, we'll all stop now.

[soubriquet]

A couple more worth looking at are the Honda Beat and Suzuki Cappuccino

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Honda_Beat

http://en.wikipedia....zuki_Cappuccino

Clarkson can fit in the Beat, and he`s 6'5"!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptiMZTm4F34

The power quoted may not look too flash, but there weren`t many cars pushing out 100bhp per litre in 1964.The Suzuki has a turbo. I`ll bet there are plenty of cheap extra horses to be found

I drive kei cars regularly, and they are hoot.

[Terry Walker]

The S600 S800s were the size of a carpet slipper, powered by a very high-revving mototcycle-inspired engine. Charismatic, huge fun, but not without faults. On the balance, one of Japan's greats.

I used to have a 1960s Hondas CB400 bike, 398 cc, 4 cyclinders, redlined if I remember rightly at 10,500 or thereabouts. It was a tiny little jewel of a thing, and in the same spirit as the S600 S800. I used to get a lot of joy out of redlining the CB400 through the 6 gears. It used to hooowwwlll!

Yes, the S600 S800 Honda is way cool.

[Bloggsworth]

Originally posted by Spunout


Heel and toe is skill that can be learned easily, no "special talent" required. I guess it looks impressive, but really is no big deal. Doesn´t take years to master, either.

And much easier with a central accelerator and the brake on the right, much more natural angle for the foot - Jeez, that tells you how old I am, I used to drive cars with central accelerators.

[amardeep]

The best way to heal and toe is not to used the clutch - then you know your timing is right! Its quite easy to do it that way.

Hmmm. Not sure I'm quite up to that, but I may give it a go. Does it really work if you get it just right ?

So ... what's the sequence ? In gear, clutch, into neutral, clutch up, blip, pull it into gear (without clutch) ? Or does the clutch not even get used getting out of gear ?

[F1Annie]

Originally posted by TickTickBooom
[B]It was Jenson driving. I recognised his hands straight away, as did several of my friends. Good thing about being a girl, we notice these things.

Thanks for the video. I didn't watch the pre-race either for the same reason as you.

(I could always recognise Michael's hands! )

[Youichi]

Originally posted by soubriquet
A couple more worth looking at are the Honda Beat and Suzuki Cappuccino

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Honda_Beat

http://en.wikipedia....zuki_Cappuccino

Clarkson can fit in the Beat, and he`s 6'5"!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptiMZTm4F34

The power quoted may not look too flash, but there weren`t many cars pushing out 100bhp per litre in 1964.The Suzuki has a turbo. I`ll bet there are plenty of cheap extra horses to be found

I drive kei cars regularly, and they are hoot.

I drive a Cappuccino

All of the KEI cars are electronicaly restricted to 64 HP and 87MPH, but on the Cappo the speed limiter is just one wire to the ECU, remove this, and they are good for 110+, even with the standard 64HP. A new exhaust and ECU, and 100hp is easily atainable, not bad for 660cc, and don't forget they only weight 700Kg.

[NineOneSeven]

Youichi: That sounds pretty awesome. Post a pic of it ;)

Originally posted by amardeep
Hmmm. Not sure I'm quite up to that, but I may give it a go. Does it really work if you get it just right ?

So ... what's the sequence ? In gear, clutch, into neutral, clutch up, blip, pull it into gear (without clutch) ? Or does the clutch not even get used getting out of gear ?

This this great clip of JPM do this in his NASCAR. He has both feet on the brake and gas pedal and doesn't use the clutch at all. he only probably uses it to pull away. I am not sure if all nascar drivers do this.

Search for it on youtube.. i can't access it otherwise i would have posted a link.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think NASCAR uses sequential gearbox on road courses.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by soubriquet
The AS285E. 606cc, 57PS at 8,500rpm. Not a bad looking piece of kit for 1964, and a lot less agricultural than anything from Triumph.

Very nice, sure. At that time, the British hadn't done much for years, but the Triumph was fun to drive, it sounded great and it had some torque. It was easy to get to the Triumph Spitfire engine - the whole front bonnet and wheel arch etc were one pieces, and the whole thing hinged forward, you could get to anything very easily. Brilliant. Nissan had the FairLady sports at around the same time, and it put in an awesome 2 litre four. The Nissan was very fast, although its ride made an MGB or Triumph feel like Rolls Royces - the Nissan ride was terrible. Don't think the Japanese made perfect cars back then - they were learning.Triumph put their 2.5 litre six into that Spitfire chassis I think, but evidently the car lost quite a lot of its handling.

I never figured the S800 out - nothing followed on from it but things sure did from the S1300 coupe, at least drive train and interior wise. Honda was going to bring out a contemporary roadster, but Mazda beat them to it with the MX5, and Honda stopped their program. Years later they brought out the S2000 roadster. My wife bought a new MX5, she had it for a few years - it owed a lot to the British sports car scene IMO, and maybe a bit to the S800 which it resembled in a lot of ways IMO, but its engine was traditional British in feel, being torque based not power, which is nicer to drive.

The S800 was certainly interesting, but the engine was too small, lets be real here guys, despite the high technology in it. High tech small motors were available to Honda from their bike scene, but IMO the motor didn't work too well in the S800. I meantioned the S1300 Honda because despite it being a Coupe and FWD, it was a fast car, and it only had 500cc more. I think it was water cooled aor maybe not. I drove a friends and it was a shock, it was so fast. I think it had an air cooled engine, but I forget? There were some sexy and interesting coupes from japana at the time - the Bellet, the first Nissan GTR, etc.

If the S800 had of been a bit bigger, I guess the drive train would have struggled at times. The S800 had very skinny wheels too - it had a beautiful modern dash for the time, although the instruments were small, they were visible and clear. The most outstanding thing about the car was the gearbox - it was extraordinary, it was fun to play the gears. I guess jenson double declutched because he found it fun - it wasn't necessary to do that with the S800.

[parabolicaer]

Very nice. Jay Leno has a big collection of cars and he definitely had some good things to say about the S600.

Video link

Sounds like a 60s GP car when Jay gets on it.

[pingu666]

sweet vid
and yeah, really reminds me of grand prix legends

pretty funny too, that wall of noise and it hardly moves

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by parabolicaer
Very nice. Jay Leno has a big collection of cars and he definitely had some good things to say about the S600.

Video link

Sounds like a 60s GP car when Jay gets on it.

I never drove an S600, but the S800 sounded nothing at all like that! The sound of 2000 generation specialist exhausts! It was extremely quiet actually, although maybe the wind noise hid the engine sound. It was very smooth though.

[soubriquet]

No disagreement, Melbourne Park, the S600 and S800 were flawed, but they were jewels too. As a statement of intent they make an interesting comparison with the Spitfire. The Spitfire had a separate chassis, swing axle rear suspension and a long stroke cast iron pushrod motor. The Honda was unitary construction, all-alloy dohc, and also had somewhat iffy rear suspension.

If you look where we are now, you can see that at that point in the mid-sixties, one company was looking back into the past and one was providing a vision for the future. It's no accident that you can buy a new Honda and have to go to a museum to find a Triumph. If I'd been an engineer looking for work in 1965, I know which company I would have chosen to work for.

[Mark A]

Originally posted by amardeep
Hmmm. Not sure I'm quite up to that, but I may give it a go. Does it really work if you get it just right ?

So ... what's the sequence ? In gear, clutch, into neutral, clutch up, blip, pull it into gear (without clutch) ? Or does the clutch not even get used getting out of gear ?

You are effectively describing double de-clutching although you use the clutch for the last bit as well.

Heel & toe is to be braking with the ball of your foot and then either use your heel or roll your foot to use the side of it to 'blip' the throttle (while still braking) to match the revs to the new higher revs of the lower gear to prevent any wheel locking on downchange. This is still done using the clutch.

[amardeep]

Yes, you're right. I was wondering about this remark

The best way to heal and toe is not to used the clutch - then you know your timing is right! Its quite easy to do it that way.

which I guess is really referring to not using the clutch when double de-clutching (which is a natural part of using heal and toe). Specifically I was wondering whether not missing out the clutch is feasible in both parts where you'd use the clutch in "normal" double de-clutching. I guess there's nothing to stop you pulling the gear lever out of gear without the clutch or sticking it the next gear without it too (if you've got the revs matched just so). Or maybe I've really mis-understood what was meant.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by soubriquet
No disagreement, Melbourne Park, the S600 and S800 were flawed, but they were jewels too. As a statement of intent they make an interesting comparison with the Spitfire. The Spitfire had a separate chassis, swing axle rear suspension and a long stroke cast iron pushrod motor. The Honda was unitary construction, all-alloy dohc, and also had somewhat iffy rear suspension.

If you look where we are now, you can see that at that point in the mid-sixties, one company was looking back into the past and one was providing a vision for the future. It's no accident that you can buy a new Honda and have to go to a museum to find a Triumph. If I'd been an engineer looking for work in 1965, I know which company I would have chosen to work for.

My Uncle sold BMC cars - British Motor Corporation cars in the 60s and 70s, and he joked about Mr Honda throughing his chop sticks away! (the chop sticks being push rods). I thought back then as a kid, boy you should be selling Hondas!

By the way, the Leno video shows that the S600 did have a separate chassis, I had thought it a monocoque too.

I always liked the S800 for many reasons, but it wasn't fun to drive - the Spitfire was great to drive. A TR4 was a fabulous car too, and its Surrey top was very innovative IMO. The problem the British sports car industry had was with safety - the TR7 was never a convertable, roadsters were effectively banned due to safety.

The Japanese revolution was also built on some innovative manufacturing ideas, such as Just In Time, and they had some workforce advantages as well. I drove my wife's British car when I met her, a Pininfarina styled rectangular sedan that looked like a Peugot 404, it was a Wolseley 6/99, with a 3 litre "Lightning six", the same motor found in the 6 cylinder Austin Healeys, but tuned down. That engine out accelerated new 6 cylinder General Motors "Commodore" cars, and my wife's car was an automatic, and really old and in poor shape. Those Austins and Wolseleys were great cars IMO, they understeered a bit because they were too high I guess, but unlike Peugot they did not have enough funds to re-invest to keep improving their cars. That Wolseley is still in my father in laws drive way, but its really a wreck now.

[soubriquet]

Don't be mislead about heel-and-toe. If you aren't using the clutch and you don't give a stuff about the gearbox, then left foot brake and use the throttle to rev match. The entire point about heel-and-toe is to co-ordinate the revs for a downshift while braking with your right foot at the same time as using the clutch with your left.

There are some hot air wannabees blowing smoke here.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by soubriquet
Don't be mislead about heel-and-toe. If you aren't using the clutch and you don't give a stuff about the gearbox, then left foot brake and use the throttle to rev match. The entire point about heel-and-toe is to co-ordinate the revs for a downshift while braking with your right foot at the same time as using the clutch with your left.

I invented an adaption of that for a track demo race, by left foot braking in order to keep the turbo boost up in my Saab. I showed it to Alan Jones as I drove him around Calder racetrack, he thought I was crazy, and said it was more rally stuff eh? But it did work on the track ... then later on when I was racing AJ (not real racing though), the brake fluid overheated, and the clutch hydrualics boiled too, so things got a little overheated.

[amardeep]

A couple of things,

(1) Yes you can change (down) without the clutch, but ... the success rate when starting out seems to be about 50%. Hard to say whether improvement will come fast enough to avoid a knackered gearbox :-)

(2) You can see Jenson's drive of the S600 on the hi-band version of the Honda F1 web-site, go to www.hondaracingf1.com select one of the broadband/flash site languages, click on the "TV" link at the top of the new window, and then the "All" tab of the tv/video player, and choose "Jenson drives the Honda S600 in Monte Carlo" option (sorry, no direct link to it).