77 replies to this topic

[NineOneSeven]

I was just reading my copy of Autosport and saw an advert for the Renault Sports cars. I also spied an advert for BMW as well, which I think is the first F1 related advert I have seen. Actually I am quite surprised at BMW as I thought that they might bring out some BMW Sauber editions. I can’t see why they would hold on to the Sauber name otherwise.

I don’t think that many manufactures capitalise on their F1 involvement as much as they could with the notable exception being Ferrari and Renault.

What do you guys think? Who makes the most of their F1 exposure? What do you think they can do to increase the link between the core business and their F1 programme?

[Mika Mika]

None....

[howardt]

Unquestionably Ferrari.
Ferrari don't do "marketing" - they do F1. Their global advertising budget is zero. It's F1 that sells the cars.

[Beamer]

Originally posted by howardt
Unquestionably Ferrari.
Ferrari don't do "marketing" - they do F1. Their global advertising budget is zero. It's F1 that sells the cars.

my thoughts exactly. No doubt about it!

[tifosi]

Originally posted by howardt
Unquestionably Ferrari.
Ferrari don't do "marketing" - they do F1. Their global advertising budget is zero. It's F1 that sells the cars.

I'm not 100% convinced some of the Hollywood celebs or NBA stars could even spell F1, let alone have any clue as to what it is.

I've seen a few non-F1 related Ferrari adverts. Not a whole lot, but they do exist. But those are probably done by individual dealers not Ferrari itself.

[NineOneSeven]

Yes Ferrari do have quite a different set up from the others.

I can't understand why Honda don't align their brand closer to F1, when they have so much history.

A couple of votes for BMW but where have they promoted their product based on F1 involvement? I wish they would do more but it hasn't been apparent to me.

[paffett4F1]

I agree Ferrari ultimately make the most of their involvement but all of them use F1 for marketing, for example in the news today -

McLaren drivers to run demo laps at Brooklands Motoring Festival

[Frank Booth]

Ferrari is Ferrari because of it's history in F1 IMO.

I would like to see Honda re-badge to Acura F1 so I can finally root for them next year when Ruebens is gone.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Frank Booth
Ferrari is Ferrari because of it's history in F1 IMO.

I would like to see Honda re-badge to Acura F1 so I can finally root for them next year when Ruebens is gone.

Why would they rebadge to Acura? Honda is a company that works hard at engineering good cars and fostering a competitive engineering spirit. Acura is a marketing exercise.

[Zoe]

Audi and Mercedes had large ads in one of the big newspapers (Süddeutsche) here in Germany before the racing season started.

Don't ask me wether they do actually sell more cars because of this.

Zoe

[Man of the race]

The car business is not important. Caps and T-shirts are where the big money is. At least in football business it is like that.

[Scudetto]

Ferrari for all the obvious reasons: use of the sport to market the cars, F1-developed technology in the cars, etc. Nevermind merchandise.

Next up, I'd say Honda. Their adverts here in the States prominently features their F1 involvment, which is rare among other manfucturers on this side of the pond. I can't say if that translates into "commercial success," as Honda's a popular car independent of motorsport, but at least they make their motor racing experience known.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Man of the race
The car business is not important. Caps and T-shirts are where the big money is. At least in football business it is like that.

Well, I'm not so sure a football team has anything else they could sell.

1 Ferrari 599 GTB equals a heLL of a lot of hats.

[Crazy Ninja]

Ferrari

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by NineOneSeven


I can't understand why Honda don't align their brand closer to F1, when they have so much history.

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=XiBX8MkFkd4

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=PIGzRADjvWw

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by tifosi

1 Ferrari 599 GTB equals a heLL of a lot of hats.

You can't build a Ferrari in a Far Eastern sweatshop

[Owen]

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja
Ferrari

Yep. I agree. The brand is synonymous with F1 and adds to the exotic image.

and McLaren... Mc not Mac. Pedantic I know.

[taran]

Ferrari is a strong contender as it indeed relies on its racing programme(s) to advertise its road cars. In fact, other companies pay Ferrari to use Ferraris in their own advertisements. But does Ferrari “sell” anymore cars due to its racing programme? Or rather, does its racing programme make commercial sense? No, without Fiat picking up the bills, Ferrari would have gone the way of the dodo (or Maserati). Rather than providing commercial success, it was haemorrhaging money. This has changed since Marlboro became a major sponsor but Ferrari could never afford its F1 involvement at the highest level from its own pockets. It made a profit of “just” 266m euros in 2007.

Mercedes has benefited hugely from its racing programmes with F1 at its apogee. Not so long ago, Mercedes were staid, ponderous luxosaurus driven by fat German businessmen, African dictators and that horrible banker who denied you a loan for an Alfa Romeo. Nowadays, they are sporty cars, driven by such diverse types such as people who have a life-style and pimps. And they sell in huge numbers.

Renault probably does not sell many more cars due to its F1 programme as such but it has other benefits IMO. It gives their bread and butter range some pizzas and a much higher profile in a crowded car market.

BMW probably has the least commercial benefit. BMW cars have not gained a more sporty image or an image of technical excellence. BMW already had that. It has merely highlighted its reputation as Mercedes’ perennial rival. As if that was necessary.

Honda gained huge commercial success with its second F1 campaign (1983-1992). From a reputation for frugal yet quirky cars it went to being Japan’s most highly rated car company, with a reputation for technological excellence. Its current campaign is a total disaster. In fact, people with Honda’s conceal the F1 link in casual conversation because they are too embarrassed. Nobody thinking about buying an Accord would give a toss about Jenson Button.

Toyota has experienced great success with its F1 programme. On the roads if not on the track. It entered F1 to increase its attractiveness regarding a younger generation and has succeeded in spades. If it never won a race, it would still be a huge success. The only thing threatening it is loss of face. No wins despite the effort and Honda possibly doing better.

However, there can be only 1 winner and that has to be……RENAULT!

Renault ?

Yes, Renault !

Ferrari would still be in F1 even if it cost Fiat’s last euro. Mercedes can’t withdraw without losing prestige points to BMW. And Germans will rather lose their 1,000 year reich than allow a fellow German to gain the upper hand. BMW finds itself in the same boat. BMW need to upstage Mercedes, wherever, whenever, whatever. Sound commercial business sense has no place in this rivalry. If Honda used commercial sense, or even just common sense, it would have taken its F1 programme behind the shed and done the decent thing by putting it out of its misery. It is so far removed from the glory days that it has managed to devaluate Honda’s earlier F1 reputation. Honda is in F1 because it wants to be in F1. Commercial considerations are of no consequence. Toyota started out for the right reasons (selling more cars) and has succeeded amply in that regard. But where are the F1 spin offs? The F1 badged hot hatchbacks? The halo sportscar?

And then there is Renault. It has F1 badged cars! It produces sports cars every now and then! It builds wild and wacky F1-derived monsters (like the Espace V10)! But most telling of all, unlike all the others, Renault has to be careful with its money. If the F1 programme did not make sound commercial sense, Carlos “Le Costcutter” Ghosn would shut it down in a heartbeat. So obviously, it has the most commercial success!

[fukkinen]

'Most commercial success'?
What does it mean exactly?
That's such a broad concept.

Ferrari's road car commercial success is no doubt connected to it's origins, when the F1 contenders could be driven on the streets. Only recently, Ferrari came back to market the F355 as a product of F1, due to the embebed technology in the chassis and suspension. Before that [IMO] the road car image was much more connected to GT LeMans cars, like the F40.

Mercedes wanted to renew his image w/ the F1 comeback. The image consumers used to have before was Mercedes is an old and traditional brand. Alongside with street cars designer changes, it was a complete success.

Renault and Toyota also has commercial success in the new markets of the third world, in terms of brand recognition. Remember sales beggins from here.
Even before comming into the country, the brand is already know by the F1 race transmissions. Irrespective of their current performance, belonging to F1 is like a prestigious presentation card.

Honda is a company apart. Beyond the a/m benefit, Soichiro Honda has always highlighted the importance of human development competition provides in the form of racing.
The engineers that once attended McLaren Honda are now in the directory board (Kawamoto) responsible for designing the cars. The S2000 is not like the F355, bcs you can't recognise directly the engine, suspension and chassis construction similat to the F1, but the solutions found to make such an outstanding car reflects the quality of engineers developed in the F1 racing forge.

BMW expressed there is an overlaping in the F1 enginee development and the street car ones. That means all the technology developed for F1 cars is transfered to street car engines design/development in a very short time, and vice-versa.

All in all,
good/superior products brings commercial success.
a favourable brand image brings commercial success.

[fukkinen]

He... didn't see you comming, Taran.
Nice post.

[Wouter]

As was written already by someone, the age of the average Mercedes' driver has dropped sharply over the last 15-20 years. The "sporty" image that Mercedes gets by competing in F1 and DTM, has no doubt helped here. Before that, Mercedes was perceived as the reliable but boring "taxi", by some of those who are now buying the more "blitzy" Mercedes' models.

Honda got some of its good reputation by its F1 successes in the 80s (excellent reliability in its road cars being another major factor); the mark got the image of being "the Japanese BMW" at the time.

And of course, Ferrari's marketing is mostly F1. It's an almost direct car-seller for them.

[Atreiu]

Did Ferrari sales tank and go down from 1979 until 2000?


I don't know if they are who make the most from F1, but it does seem they are the manufacture most closely associated with F1, and vice-versa.

[Frank Booth]

Originally posted by JForce


Why would they rebadge to Acura? Honda is a company that works hard at engineering good cars and fostering a competitive engineering spirit. Acura is a marketing exercise.

I dunno just personal I guess I think the Acura name & symbol looks cooler on a hat.

[Group B]

Originally posted by tifosi


I'm not 100% convinced some of the Hollywood celebs or NBA stars could even spell F1, let alone have any clue as to what it is.

I've seen a few non-F1 related Ferrari adverts. Not a whole lot, but they do exist. But those are probably done by individual dealers not Ferrari itself.

Indeed. If I bought a Ferrari it would having nothing to do with F1. The name has been at the top of high performance road cars plenty long enough to sell in it's own right. That's not to say F1 doesn't have some effect, but I doubt it's that great.

[giacomo]

Which of the mentioned manufacturers is able to make the biggest profit per sold road car? Ferrari.

Why are they able to charge such astronomical amounts for their road cars? Because of their legend status.

What's the reason for their legend status? Their absolutely unique motor racing heritage.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Toyota and Renault probably.

[Sleep]

Ferrari is not a car manufacturer first and foremost, they are an F1 team. They build and sell road cars in order to finance their F1 participation. That's where most of the income from the road car-division is being used.

[rye&ginger]

Originally posted by Frank Booth


I dunno just personal I guess I think the Acura name & symbol looks cooler on a hat.

IIRC, Acura is just a brand used in Europe and North America. Acrua, Lexsus etc.. do not exist in their home markets of Japan.

But seems they will introduce it also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura

IMO Honda's name is just fine to use. It has history in F1 and its mark looks good in name and logo. Performance on the other hand....

[undersquare]

Ferrari sold 6,400 cars last year (http://www.autoobser...d-for-2007.html

If they have a budget of $500m and raise half of that from sponsorship that means each Ferrari road car buyer contributes $39,000 to the race team...

[Sleep]

Originally posted by undersquare
Ferrari sold 6,400 cars last year (http://www.autoobser...d-for-2007.html

If they have a budget of $500m and raise half of that from sponsorship that means each Ferrari road car buyer contributes $39,000 to the race team...

They don't raise half of their budget from sponsorships, they raise much less. They also don't have a budget of $500 million. The true number these days (2007-2008) is between $420 and $450 million depending on the average value of the dollar over a yearly period.

I can't seem to find the article but I remember that in 2003 a person who bought a 360 Modena contributed well over 2/3 of the value of the car to the F1 division. It was also mentioned that in the past (when Enzo was alive) the figure was close to 90%.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by Sleep


They don't raise half of their budget from sponsorships, they raise much less. They also don't have a budget of $500 million. The true number these days (2007-2008) is between $420 and $450 million depending on the average value of the dollar over a yearly period.

I can't seem to find the article but I remember that in 2003 a person who bought a 360 Modena contributed well over 2/3 of the value of the car to the F1 division. It was also mentioned that in the past (when Enzo was alive) the figure was close to 90%.

I thought Philip Morris pay $200m or something? And there's Alice. Anyway, it's the difference between Ferrari and Porsche, interesting that both companies make their F1 (or not) strategy work.

I voted BMW because they spend moderately and their cars suit F1 fans. Their sales have gone up since they took over Sauber, Dr Mario was saying.

The others I can't understand, they have no or almost no cars that an F1 fan would buy. Fi fans read the reviews and talk about cars, no-one's going to buy a Supra or a Laguna because of F1. Renault sales actually dropped in Spain while Fernando was winning his championships.

[Sleep]

Originally posted by undersquare


I thought Philip Morris pay $200m or something? And there's Alice. Anyway, it's the difference between Ferrari and Porsche, interesting that both companies make their F1 (or not) strategy work.

I voted BMW because they spend moderately and their cars suit F1 fans. Their sales have gone up since they took over Sauber, Dr Mario was saying.

The others I can't understand, they have no or almost no cars that an F1 fan would buy. Fi fans read the reviews and talk about cars, no-one's going to buy a Supra or a Laguna because of F1. Renault sales actually dropped in Spain while Fernando was winning his championships.

Philip Morris contribute almost half of the budget, that right. But it's only true these past few years. That's why Ferrari have been forced to increase their road car production by 1500-2000 cars a year since the mid 90s. If they increase it further there will be a backlash in the exclusivity department.

Alice is not the huge sponsor people think they are. Shell and Ferrari basicly sponsor each other so Ferrari don't make any funds there either and Ferrari pay Bridgestone (and have for years) to be associtaed with them.

[JasonSw]

Interestingly Philip Morris own all the add space on the car, so they rent out the space to the other sponsors, but only if Ferrari agree to it.

[Nathan]

Originally posted by tifosi


I'm not 100% convinced some of the Hollywood celebs or NBA stars could even spell F1, let alone have any clue as to what it is.

What they do know is Ferrari means something spectacular. What established that general thought?

[pacwest]

Jaguar!

[taran]

Originally posted by Atreiu
Did Ferrari sales tank and go down from 1979 until 2000?

Not necessarily, the 308/328 series was a success in traditional terms, as was the Testarossa. However, the Mondial and 412 weren't, neither was the 348.

In the 80's and early 90's, Ferrari sold between 1,500 and 2,500 cars annually, which was extremely good for a high end sports car company. Lotus and Lamborghini could only dream of such sales.

From the early 90's onward, sales took a dive. Porsche and the Japanese were building cars that wedded looks, performance and quality in a way which made Ferrari look stupid and the company was facing real trouble.

Luca di Montezemolo oversaw a "rebirth" in which Ferrari focused on much better quality and technological excellence instead of their rather old-fashioned and slow earlier cars. The trade off was much higher prices ;)

Production jumped to approximately 4,000 (long said to be the maximum production number to ensure exclusivity) but Ferrari now produces more than 6,000 cars annually. Luca claims this still allows for exclusivity because new markets have emerged so you still don't see them at every street corner.

Obviously, he has never been to Monaco.....

[repcobrabham]

i have to say renault really blitzed the ad market when FA was on top, while BMW have made some serious spend lately.

ferrari do gain the most from their involvement in F1 relative to other promotional avenues ... mercedes do bugger-all.

down here, both honda and toyota advertise during the F1 coverage and angle their billboard ads that way.

[taran]

Originally posted by Sleep


They don't raise half of their budget from sponsorships, they raise much less. They also don't have a budget of $500 million. The true number these days (2007-2008) is between $420 and $450 million depending on the average value of the dollar over a yearly period.

I can't seem to find the article but I remember that in 2003 a person who bought a 360 Modena contributed well over 2/3 of the value of the car to the F1 division. It was also mentioned that in the past (when Enzo was alive) the figure was close to 90%.

No, Ferrari transfer 5% of their annual turnover to the racing team and have done so since 1980. In 2007, annual turnover was approximately 1.6 billion euros so the race team gets 80 million.

Obviously, this is not enough

Marlboro has acquired the entire sponsorship portfolio for around $150m (a "normal" title sponsorship for a top team goes for $30m-$70m with the rule of the thumb knowledge that the combined secondary sponsors usually match the title sponsor. Marlboro then "sells" part of the car to other sponsors but that money does not go to Ferrari.

So Ferrari has an "income" of around $270m. Its "official" budget is listed as approximately $450m.
Much of that is the engine budget and other technical areas (gearbox, electronics etc.). Ferrari, Fiat and a host of technical sponsors provide goods and technical assistance which largely explains the difference between $450m and $270m.

It should be mentioned that Fiat used to pick up the racing bills as well (hence the large FIAT stickers in the 70's, 80's and 90's) but that has largely been reduced to providing technical assistance instead since the late 1990's when Fiat was in dire financial difficulties and Ferrari was "officially" divorced from the company.

[Galko877]

I think Ferrari. F1 is a very big part of their image.

[F1Annie]

Originally posted by paffett4F1
I agree Ferrari ultimately make the most of their involvement but all of them use F1 for marketing, for example in the news today -

McLaren drivers to run demo laps at Brooklands Motoring Festival

Looks like a good day out. Wonder if they'll drive here?

[PassWind]

Originally posted by tifosi


I'm not 100% convinced some of the Hollywood celebs or NBA stars could even spell F1, let alone have any clue as to what it is.

I've seen a few non-F1 related Ferrari adverts. Not a whole lot, but they do exist. But those are probably done by individual dealers not Ferrari itself.

Advertising do you really think once someone has seen a Ferrari road car there is a need to advertise it, the car says it all. Even a pleb NBA star can work that out.

[F1Annie]

I voted Ferrari. I know this is really for Shell but I still love it.

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=Z9LJyBkXcuY

[Hippo]

Originally posted by giacomo
Which of the mentioned manufacturers is able to make the biggest profit per sold road car? Ferrari.

Why are they able to charge such astronomical amounts for their road cars? Because of their legend status.

What's the reason for their legend status? Their absolutely unique motor racing heritage.

No, actually i think this has changed. In the early years when customers could basicly buy the cars Ferrari was racing with the legend had it's origin. But now the origin is the legend itself. You see, the small boy - lets say 5 years old - doesn't give a **** about F1. But when he is given a Matchbox Ferrari and is being told "look, that's a Ferrari, it's legendary" he will associate it that way for a very long time. If he likes cars as most small boys do he'll be very excited if he first sees a Ferrari in the streets. This has nothing to do with Ferrari's actual F1 budget.

[anbeck]

It's gotta be Mercedes. I don't think that Ferrari is so dependent on their F1 success. However, Mercedes cars before the mid-90s were cars that old men with hats and a dachshund drove. Since their F1-return their image changed completely, they introduced their cars in a silver finish and now they have a high-tech/sport reputation.

BMW always had a rather sportive image, and I don't know if they had any television spots with direct F1-links as did Mercedes (with Hakkinen). Renault frankly don't build the cars that might profit from their F1 engagement, and Honda and Toyota wouldn't profit as much as the first four even if they won every GP in a season.

So I think that it is Mercedes that have made most of their F1-engagement.

[united]

Originally posted by howardt
Unquestionably Ferrari.
Ferrari don't do "marketing" - they do F1. Their global advertising budget is zero. It's F1 that sells the cars.

And that is exactly why they have hired Red Bull's marketing guru Dani Bahar who now manages specially created department in Ferrari structure. The structure that previously had only GS and production.

I think some Schumacher style domination may not be so breathtakingly attractive for everyone - remember, automotive companies like Honda and Renault actually withdrew for F1. F1 is not a marketing panacea.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Hippo

No, actually i think this has changed. In the early years when customers could basicly buy the cars Ferrari was racing with the legend had it's origin. But now the origin is the legend itself. You see, the small boy - lets say 5 years old - doesn't give a **** about F1. But when he is given a Matchbox Ferrari and is being told "look, that's a Ferrari, it's legendary" he will associate it that way for a very long time. If he likes cars as most small boys do he'll be very excited if he first sees a Ferrari in the streets. This has nothing to do with Ferrari's actual F1 budget.

Cannot remember myself talking about Ferraris current F1 budget.

[potmotr]

I think in the late 80s/early 90s it would have been Honda.

[metz]

Obviously Ferrari. Without F1 they would probably not exist.
Of the others.
BMW, Dr.T in particular, always makes a marketing quote for the road car market. He references the brand more than any other F1 personality.
From an overall marketing perspactive, Toyota makes most use of the F1 involvement. Their showrooms all over the world feature the F1 team.

[lustigson]

If you look at the present day, the 'manufacturer' that's least influenced by F1, would be Ferrari, in my view. The road car division is just succesful because, well, it's Ferrari. That works much like Lamborghini, Bentley, and so forth: they sell their cars because of their brand.
Looking at history, however, yes, Ferrari was most influenced by F1. But they were influenced by Sports Car Racing, too.

From what I see, in the Netherlands, the only manufacturer to actually link their cars to their F1 presence, although limitied, is Renault. Renault is the only car builder in F1 to sell more cars. All the other manufacturers have other reasons to be there:
- Ferrari: because they're Ferrari
- Mercedes: to beat BMW
- Honda: to beat Toyota
- BMW: to beat Mercedes
- Toyota: to beat Honda

[NineOneSeven]

Ok Ferrari is interlinked with F1 unlike any other manufacturer.

I have seen some of the Honda adverts but its nothing like the exposure Renault gave their range. As mentioned previously they even go as far to name their road going specials after the F1 cars.

I think this combined with the fact the road going specials are awesome cars (even though they are driven by the wrong wheels ;) apart from the mid engine Clio V6 models) I just see so much more visibility in their campaign.

I don't understand why BMW don't bring out a M3 or M5 special along the lines of the Porsche GT3 RS and name its the BMW Sauber F1 or something. I don't get it?
Porsche make so much of the racing that they undertake. Heck the even the new special RS60 Boxster is aligned with the 1950's original RS60.. which incidentally is so wrong the Boxster special has nothing similar in line with the ethos of the RS60. They should have done a proper job.. Anyway I digress.

Honda really get me... they have so much history, they have had some of the best drivers in the world drive their cars and bikes and yet they just let the marketing opportunity slip away. I don't understand it.


Toyota does nothing! Not that I can remember. God each year I pray they at least change the colour of the flipping car or its design at the very least.