201 replies to this topic

[timbo]

While this thread may not strictly speaking belong in the nostalgia pages, it seems its not too far away from belonging there.

I clicked on to the Oran Park website www.oranpark.com.au just a short while ago to check their calendar of upcoming events, and I was asked if I wanted to visit the motor racing pages, or the land sale pages of the website.
It seems land sales will begin in the spring of 2009.

[normbeechey]

It's sad to see such proof of the eventual demise of such a fantastic circuit.

[Pist-N-Broke]

Yes I found that to, quite disturbing really. I will be racing there twice next month in Historics in what I expect will be my First and my Last chances. The Good news is a new circuit has now been approved for Newcastle.
Cheers Richard

[Ray Bell]

New circuit approved for Newcastle?

Which one is that? Is it really going ahead?

[275 GTB-4]

Very sad...as was Amaroo Park...damn urban encroachment!! its got a lot to answer for!!

The FoSC meeting 13th, 14th & 15th June is likely to be last time I get there :

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Very sad...as was Amaroo Park...damn urban encroachment!!

Urban encroachment had nothing to do with the demise of Amaroo Park...

It was the inane people of the ARDC who committed everything they had to expanding Eastern Creek. As if it was their born right to control the Government owned circuit, they pledged huge expenditure, and they could only realise that commitment by selling all their property.

Hence the pit area (etc) at Bathurst was sold to Channel 7, Amaroo was sold to developers. Not that this was the loss it could have been.

The ARDC had taken over Amaroo on a lease, with an option to buy. They paid out Oscar Glaser by selling off their property in Leichhardt, then did nothing to develop the place as Oscar had planned. Remember, what was eventually raced on for thirty years at Amaroo was only the extension that had been planned to make the original 2.5-mile circuit into a full 3-mile circuit.

And then you could include what they did to Catalina Park...

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Urban encroachment had nothing to do with the demise of Amaroo Park...

It was the inane people of the ARDC who committed everything they had to expanding Eastern Creek. As if it was their born right to control the Government owned circuit, they pledged huge expenditure, and they could only realise that commitment by selling all their property.

Hence the pit area (etc) at Bathurst was sold to Channel 7, Amaroo was sold to developers. Not that this was the loss it could have been.

The ARDC had taken over Amaroo on a lease, with an option to buy. They paid out Oscar Glaser by selling off their property in Leichhardt, then did nothing to develop the place as Oscar had planned. Remember, what was eventually raced on for thirty years at Amaroo was only the extension that had been planned to make the original 2.5-mile circuit into a full 3-mile circuit.

And then you could include what they did to Catalina Park...

Jesus what a sorry tale ... bunch of....well... polite words fail me!

[Catalina Park]

What did they do to Catalina Park? They pulled out of the partnership with the BMSDC to move to Amaroo. (Leaving the BMSDC on their own to fold shortly after)
Next you will be blaming them for the loss of Mt Druitt and Castlereagh.

Oscar had big plans for Amaroo but in reality the ideas were just too big. I doubt that the long circuit could have been a success no matter who was running the place. Just imagine two Amaroos in adjoining valleys with a hill in between. It sounds good in practice but it would have been an organisational nightmare.

[Ray Bell]

Just one loop in the 'adjoining valley'... it would have been good...

Though there is the fact that advancing safety standards would have made it expensive. But it could also have been 'subdivided' for club hire, so income would have been greater, as it would need to be.

Catalina? Yes, pulling out of the joint venture with the BMSDC, but not only that, they controlled the promotion, did no promoting and let it just waste away.

No, can't really blame them for Mt Druitt. But maybe John or someone else could throw some light on that to make it feasible. It was a cost of fences issue there when the Speedways Act came into being. By pulling back the spectator areas they could have reduced the outlay necessary and kept it going, I'm sure.

But Belf Jones wasn't happy with the proposals they did put up and put his plow through the bitumen... as is well known. What I don't know is what the proposed arrangements were.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
But Belf Jones wasn't happy with the proposals they did put up and put his plow through the bitumen... as is well known. What I don't know is what the proposed arrangements were.

As John Medley wrote, Belf built it and Belf ploughed it up...probably an interesting story on how Mount Druitt came to be...

[Catalina Park]

Hmmm, the DMR built it....

[Ray Bell]

The DMR?

I would imagine the airstrip was built by the Air Force... that's about half of the circuit.

[Catalina Park]

The DMR built the airstrips for the services. They built a stack of them all over NSW, NT and New Guinea.

[Ray Bell]

It's getting off-topic, I know... but...

I never quite grasped how the rest of the Mt Druitt circuit came into being. Was it a dispersal road for the aircraft that might land there (I think it was an emergency strip, wasn't it?) like Caversham and Moolieabeenie? Or did the racing people put it in?

[Dale Harvey]

Originally posted by Pist-N-Broke
Yes I found that to, quite disturbing really. I will be racing there twice next month in Historics in what I expect will be my First and my Last chances. The Good news is a new circuit has now been approved for Newcastle.
Cheers Richard

Is the Newcastle approval for sure and certain? Where did you get the info? The people I associate with that are involved in historics have heard no such news. I hope you are correct.
Dale.

[Pist-N-Broke]

Heard it from a chap at Peninsular sports cars. I a also a member of Newcastle MG club so will make a call to confirm Monday

[Dale Harvey]

Thanks for that Richard.
Dale.

[Pist-N-Broke]

Dale I am sorry to have to say that my intel was incorrect. Having spoken to Andy peters at the club It seems that planning permission has not yet been granted. However a decision is expected within the next 3/4 weeks, so I have all fingers and toes crossed, which makes it difficult to finish this reply.
Regards Richard

[Dale Harvey]

That is similar to the information that I have. Thanks.
Dale.

[johnny yuma]

Ray Bell why are you all bitter and twisted blaming the ARDC for the demise of Amaroo and Catalina ?Spectator numbers for almost all circuits in Australia began to fall away in the late 70s for a set of social and motorsport category reasons.40,000 people didn't just suddenly forget the excitement of the racing at Oran Park in the early 70s-they went back for more but discovered the entry lists were crap and drifted away.Even C.Max Stahl's once great Racing Car News magazine shuffled off somewhere in the 80s-and stopped publishing attendance figures at Australian tracks even earlier.I was present at the emotionally charged ARDC SPECIAL GENERAL meetings at Annangrove in 1996-98 when the only way out of the huge EPA noise pollution fines,and small crowds for non-Bathurst car meetings,AND ENCROACHING SUBURBIA ,was to accept the offer of Eastern Creek.The ARDC has persevered bravely with this poisoned chalice,and at least it remains as Sydney Proper's only track-popular with drivers,good for enthusiasts at Muscle Cars,Historics etc but not a great bum on seat track.


Having attended every Bathurst car meeting since 1968 for my money the ARDC RAN IT BETTER THAN THE PRESENT ORGANISATIONS.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by johnny yuma
Ray Bell why are you all bitter and twisted blaming the ARDC for the demise of Amaroo and Catalina?

I don't think I am...

.....Spectator numbers for almost all circuits in Australia began to fall away in the late 70s for a set of social and motorsport category reasons. 40,000 people didn't just suddenly forget the excitement of the racing at Oran Park in the early 70s - they went back for more but discovered the entry lists were crap and drifted away.....

I doubt that there was ever a crowd at Oran Park that got anywhere near that figure...

And you're right, the entry lists were pretty seedy. But why? Because H. Ivan introduced one make races and cast aside regular categories. The people racing the regular cars couldn't get enough race meetings to consider it worthwhile, the regular categories lost numbers. And the one make things attracted a bunch of once-only people before they all died on the vine.

In other words, they were trying to attract 'Joe average' to go out to Amaroo while they set about creating race meetings that no longer appealed to the people they should have been able to count on to fill the hillsides... the enthusiasts.

What chance have you got of keeping crowd numbers up when you offend the core people?

.....Even C.Max Stahl's once great Racing Car News magazine shuffled off somewhere in the 80s - and stopped publishing attendance figures at Australian tracks even earlier. I was present at the emotionally charged ARDC SPECIAL GENERAL meetings at Annangrove in 1996-98 when the only way out of the huge EPA noise pollution fines,and small crowds for non-Bathurst car meetings,AND ENCROACHING SUBURBIA ,was to accept the offer of Eastern Creek.The ARDC has persevered bravely with this poisoned chalice,and at least it remains as Sydney Proper's only track-popular with drivers,good for enthusiasts at Muscle Cars,Historics etc but not a great bum on seat track.

Having attended every Bathurst car meeting since 1968 for my money the ARDC RAN IT BETTER THAN THE PRESENT ORGANISATIONS.

You missed the miserable 1973 Easter event?

[johnny yuma]

The Oran Park numbers peaked briefly 72-73 when the Toby Lee series sports sedans AND series production in the heyday of XU1 vs GTHO vs E38 would both head the bill on the same day,backed by a full program of support races.The meeting where an over-enthusiastic spectator joined the race in a Valiant (to Bob Jane's surprise as mentioned recently) was I think the 40,000 crowd.Every square inch of the extensive paddocks were full of spectator cars and the surrounding road shoulders for miles around .By 1975 you could fire the proverbial grape shot cannon and hit nobody.

Amaroo battled the same demise,the Dolomite -Alfasud-etc series were not headline events,just filler.Sports sedans just became too outrageous in expense and appearance and spectators got sick of them and most competitors had no budget/no hope..Historic races once supported main events and numbers attending could be good.We recently discussed the Peter Hopwood races at Amaroo.These were vibrant days but were never going to pull in The Great Unwashed.The 2 litre vs 5 litre wars were unfortunate, but change was rolling in like a clap of Hunter S Thompson's Dirty Thunder, as The Cockroach Circus swept everything else before it.

The ARDC typically get an adequate 7 or 8 thousand to a meeting,then one competitor fall foul of the EPA noise inspector (there at the whim of a politician after maybe one complaint) and the $10,000 fine put the whole meeting in the red.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by johnny yuma
The Oran Park numbers peaked briefly 72-73 when the Toby Lee series sports sedans AND series production in the heyday of XU1 vs GTHO vs E38 would both head the bill on the same day,backed by a full program of support races.The meeting where an over-enthusiastic spectator joined the race in a Valiant (to Bob Jane's surprise as mentioned recently) was I think the 40,000 crowd.Every square inch of the extensive paddocks were full of spectator cars and the surrounding road shoulders for miles around .By 1975 you could fire the proverbial grape shot cannon and hit nobody.....

But was there 40,000 there? The place is only small... well, the spectator areas are... I don't believe that figure for a minute. And the meeting that got the big crowd was the ATCC final with Jane v Moffat.

.....Amaroo battled the same demise, the Dolomite - Alfasud-etc series were not headline events,just filler. Sports sedans just became too outrageous in expense and appearance and spectators got sick of them and most competitors had no budget/no hope.....

So why were the Dolomites (TR7s, actually) and Alfasuds there? And why were they eagerly promoted when there were real racing cars happening? There's a simple answer to that.

.....Historic races once supported main events and numbers attending could be good. We recently discussed the Peter Hopwood races at Amaroo.These were vibrant days but were never going to pull in The Great Unwashed.The 2 litre vs 5 litre wars were unfortunate, but change was rolling in like a clap of Hunter S Thompson's Dirty Thunder, as The Cockroach Circus swept everything else before it.

The ARDC typically get an adequate 7 or 8 thousand to a meeting,then one competitor fall foul of the EPA noise inspector (there at the whim of a politician after maybe one complaint) and the $10,000 fine put the whole meeting in the red.

Enthusiasts would go... that's my point... the enthusiasts were being pushed away by the energetic promotion of one-make garbage and multi-heat tintop races so they simply stopped going.

I never heard anything about that noise complaint.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by johnny yuma
The Oran Park numbers peaked briefly 72-73 when the Toby Lee series sports sedans AND series production in the heyday of XU1 vs GTHO vs E38 would both head the bill on the same day,backed by a full program of support races.The meeting where an over-enthusiastic spectator joined the race in a Valiant (to Bob Jane's surprise as mentioned recently) was I think the 40,000 crowd.Every square inch of the extensive paddocks were full of spectator cars and the surrounding road shoulders for miles around .By 1975 you could fire the proverbial grape shot cannon and hit nobody.

As one who squished into Oran during this period...have to agree, the meetings were huge...every skeric of space taken up...therefore, 20-40 thou certainly possible

[Catalina Park]

The claimed crowd figure back in those days was 28,000 to 32,000 which is about right. The V8s are now claiming 40,000 to 50,000 in the same space.

[GreenMachine]

I was at OP last weekend spectating for the first time in ... oh never mind ... and it struck me that 'civilisation' is still a way from reaching OP.

When I sat in the seating at Momo (or whatever we call it these days), I could not see any new housing. My guess is that, if development is linear and does not leapfrog straight to OP, there is at least another year or two (or three...) before the bulldozers come to take the circuit down.

OTOH, if it is sold to a developer, said developer will probably not want the hassle of looking after a racing circuit to distract him from his pursuit of another dollar...

Does Tony P still own it, and is he doing the residential development himself?

[Catalina Park]

It has already been sold.
The plans have been drawn up for a couple of years.
The bulldozers are standing by.
Last plans I saw had a shopping centre sitting about where the pits currently are.

[timbo]

You are correct in one way that civilisation is still some way from Oran Park, but thats only because no-one has upgraded the facilities (except the pit garages, and even they are an el-cheapo job) since the stone age.

You only have to drive along the Northern Road for a kilometre or so towards Narellan to see the housing
development, which is moving at quite a rate.

[Catalina Park]

There is only one block between Oran Park and the suburb of Harrington Park. Take a look on a map. The houses are less than a Km away. (over a hill) You can't see the houses from the spectator areas but they are there.

[johnny yuma]

Look on the Growth Centres Commission website at "ORAN PARK-DRAFT INDICATIVE". The circuit road alignment is retained within the development from the entry to the dogleg,down into the dip then all the main straight.The track extension/go kart track all noted as part of a "private school",the area below the pits a high school.

The land area lying WITHIN the bounds of the original (south) circuit is only about 30 hectares.It's pleasant elevation of course makes it Prime Residential.Other bits and pieces in the overall holdings are set aside for parklands,playing fields ,community use etc and add up to quite abit more than 30 hectares.

It would not take the country's smartest town planner to knock up some changes retaining the entire Old Circuit as a cycleway/walkway/historical feature with the land within the old circuit dedicated as community uses.Who knows in the fullness of time if it may become possible to run some form of historic Regularity events,demonstration runs,car shows etc with community backing.Obviously the place would have to be made hoon proof----or I'd be out there at night !!

[GreenMachine]

Thanks guys... I think. Perhaps I should have just kept quiet, and basked in my optimism for a while longer :

Actually, I was talking this morning to one of Sunday's competitors, who came in from the old highway, and he informed me there is an access road under construction heading south from Cobbity Road ...

'Enjoy it while it lasts' seems to be the watchword.

[eldougo]

Originally posted by johnny yuma

It would not take the country's smartest town planner to knock up some changes retaining the entire Old Circuit as a cycleway/walkway/historical feature with the land within the old circuit dedicated as community uses.Who knows in the fullness of time if it may become possible to run some form of historic Regularity events,demonstration runs,car shows etc with community backing.Obviously the place would have to be made hoon proof----or I'd be out there at night !!

Dream on J.Y.

[275 GTB-4]

Build a replica Oran Park at the foot of Mount Panorama...in the little valley where the campsites are

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Build a replica Oran Park at the foot of Mount Panorama...in the little valley where the campsites are

....oooh don't go there! The next thing you know someone in authority would be looking to abandon the main track and use the nice new, short, easy to manage one for everything instead....

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Build a replica Oran Park at the foot of Mount Panorama...in the little valley where the campsites are

Why?

There is nothing commendable about Oran Park. It's just a circuit, some feel a poor one, some racers say, "You only ever half get going there."

Some might have seen their first race there, or gone necking at the night meetings there or have other fond memories of the place. To me, however, it paled alongside Warwick Farm, was a poor cousin to Catalina and Amaroo and it killed a lot of people.

I've been to plenty of meetings there, seen lots of races there, I've driven there myself and been driven around it by others, even done a lap in a helicopter. But there's nothing of note in my memory banks about the joint at all.

[Russell Burrows]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Why?

There is nothing commendable about Oran Park. It's just a circuit, some feel a poor one, some racers say, "You only ever half get going there."

Some might have seen their first race there, or gone necking at the night meetings there or have other fond memories of the place. To me, however, it paled alongside Warwick Farm, was a poor cousin to Catalina and Amaroo and it killed a lot of people.

I've been to plenty of meetings there, seen lots of races there, I've driven there myself and been driven around it by others, even done a lap in a helicopter. But there's nothing of note in my memory banks about the joint at all.

But unlike Amarro or Catalina there were one or two places to fall off a bike and not hurt yourself too much. Yes, we raced there too!

[seldo]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Why?

There is nothing commendable about Oran Park. It's just a circuit, some feel a poor one, some racers say, "You only ever half get going there."

Some might have seen their first race there, or gone necking at the night meetings there or have other fond memories of the place. To me, however, it paled alongside Warwick Farm, was a poor cousin to Catalina and Amaroo and it killed a lot of people.

I've been to plenty of meetings there, seen lots of races there, I've driven there myself and been driven around it by others, even done a lap in a helicopter. But there's nothing of note in my memory banks about the joint at all.

I have to agree.
I've done a lap or two there and Oran Park was always a very second-rate track IMHO - something akin to Calder.......
Still, it was better than no track, but fell a long way short of Mt Panorama, P.I., Catalina, Amaroo, The Farm, Sandown, Lakeside, etc etc. A long way down the list.

[johnny yuma]

Has Oran Park killed a lot of people compared to Catalina or Amaroo??? Considering how many meetings and laps were actually raced by how many competitors on the 3 tracks I'd say Oran Pk was the safest pro rata. Maybe some are some attracted to the possibility of death in the afternoon and feel Oran Park not sufficiently adrenalin inducing.
I loved Amaroo but it worried me a bit if I thought about how you went over the blind crest of Bitupave full stick at 100mph,or how you late braked into "stop" corner looking at the massive wall of Sydney Sandstone only yards away.Or trying to take XL curve without backing off and suddenly being at right angles to the track at 90 mph in a cloud of your own tyre smoke--and this in a "lap-dash" car with street seat belts and no rollbar.Catalina didn't worry me I was too young and silly to care.But Oran Park was both safe AND challenging I felt,although the Grand Prix extension is rubbish.

Notwithstanding all that ,OK "tell me I'm dreaming" that the nucleus of Oran Park could be retained as Community land for a variety of purposes.I certainly can't make it happen,but far more difficult things have been done,eg the recent rebirth of Lakeside in some limited form.

[Ray Bell]

I agree, it would be nice if there was a remnant of the place there for people to ponder over...

Regarding all of this, it was in response to the suggestion that Oran Park be 'rebuilt' at Bathurst... I intended that people would understand that it wasn't worthy of that honour. As to its safety, the apparent safety of the place fell in a heap when things got bad. It could suck you into a false sense of security, while a part of it was the way the place used to be run.

Granted, there was always a lot more racing and testing there.

[normbeechey]

I can only vouch for the short circuit but I reckon Oran Park is fabulous!

I reckon there is absolutely no comparison with Calder which is flat and featureless. Oran Park has nice flowing corners and nice topography. Going over the dogleg and into 'BP' certainly gets the heart racing.

V8 Supercar drivers speak highly of it and (from memory) Mark Skaife rates it as one of his favorite circuits.

Warwick Farm was certainly an iconic race circuit but was only in existence for five minutes compared with Oran Park, a little over ten years. Even Eastern Creek is getting close to twenty years!

There were certainly plenty of lucky escapes at Warwick Farm . Bob Holden in the Escort springs to mind. Peter Manton had a big one coming onto the back straight. Other drivers were lucky not to drown in the creek, judging by photos I have seen.

Mercifully perhaps the Farm was closed before most of the dangerous 'Lola Limp' period of Formula 5000.

[Ray Bell]

I don't believe that Manny Xuereb or John Marchiori would ever have died at Warwick Farm...

Nor the motorcyclist who crested the Dogleg and found a 12-year old driving a truck across the circuit.

Certainly, the Farm, like all circuits, had its dangers. Not the creek, but the lake, did claim one life.

[normbeechey]

I see that David Carter's death is recorded here: http://www.motorspor...php?db=ct&n=311

Was he related to Richard Carter?

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Certainly, the Farm, like all circuits, had its dangers. Not the creek, but the lake, did claim one life.

[Ray Bell]

Also here...

I'm sure he wasn't related to Richard.

[johnny yuma]

Unless your thing is openwheelers,the F.O.S.C. MEETING at Oran Pk 14-15 June might be as good as it gets before the earthmovers roll in.Bugatti,Porsche,Daimler,FJ Holden,Austin Westminster,numerous British sportscars, Nota Fang clubman, Muscle Cars etc etc...0ver 2 days 35 events.

[Catalina Park]

I don't really feel any sense of remorse over the impending loss of Oran Park. I did a lot of meeting there and the track has actually gone backwards in the past 20 years. The dogleg used to be a bit of a challenge but now it is bit of a wiggle over a crest. They have kept widening the edges over the years and it has taken away the corners.

I gave up racing at Oran Park because it was much too dangerous compared to Amaroo. At Amaroo the wood ducks would stay away through fear of parking the car in a tree but at Oran Park the woodies would turn up in droves and try to take the first corner 6 cars wide. I always came home from Amaroo with a straight car and usually a trophy but at Oran Park the only trophies were bent panels from getting punted off.

My best memory of Oran Park was doing a night race in a thunderstorm. (See, it was not all bad!)

[Amaroo Park]

The only thing Oran Park had going for was that it was not a bad place to. I emphasis to watch a race, the facilities there or spectators were dreadful but at least you could see the majority of the track. The pit and paddock are even the new pits were sub standard. Maybe now they can empty the bins for the first time

[normbeechey]

Does anyone know where the name "Oran Park" came from?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by normbeechey
Does anyone know where the name "Oran Park" came from?

Dunno....but John Dawson-Damer's property was also so named

[johnny yuma]

Oran Park was the name given to the landholding of William Campbell and the house he built in 1839 to the east of the racetrack,said to be still standing--possibly in Harrington Park,also an old property name from first settlers.
In India,oases in the Thar Desert are known as "orans",or sacred groves ,held by their local communities as places of respect to local deity.Present Indian scientific literature recognises them as key to local biodiversity.

My guess is Oran Park may be a common property name from the days of the British Raj,a whimsical reference to sacred groves and the usual lost utopias of ageing poets.hmmmm .The earliest map circa 1840s of Narellan area has the high ground about the start/finish line as "pretty hill". Could be that again if there was a will--but McMansions seems more likely.

[john medley]

So the snivelling iconoclasts of the 1960s who spelt it backwards to get "Naro Krap" were only joking?