49 replies to this topic

[Dragonfly]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/67973

Kimi: Safety car tactics key in Canada

When safety car tactics turn into a decisive factor for a win the sport must have gone to a very low point IMO.
Such headline would be very funny if it wasn't sad.

[Risil]

The problem isn't the pace car per se, it's just that that the current aero regs give the drivers no chance to recover from such random chance using their own skill and aggression. Although the idea that a driver should receive an official penalty for having his pit window coincide with an SC deployment is totally stupid. And cost Alonso the WDC last year.

[Clatter]

Well they need to have a plan in case of a safety car, and be able to react to it, but that's nothing new, regardless of the SC rules. Any planning can only go so far as there is no guarantee the SC will be required, or when it will appear during the race. So IMHO it's just a case of being prepared, rather than a tactic.

[MikeTekRacing]

in what race?!

[JForce]

He's talking about the closure of the pit lane and how you react to that in a safety-car situation. It's been an issue this year, as we all know.

[kNt]

In Canada they're really slow in cleaning out the car so a Safety car will easily last longer than a few laps and only then the sc becomes decisive. In Monaco it was done right .

[wingwalker]

Not really. SC is decisive when someone is about to pit during the SC period. If its 3 (instead of 6) laps long, it just means there are 50% less chances someone will be screwed, but it might as well happen. Teams very rarely are in position to bring the car 2 or 3 laps earlier than planned without any outcome on end result.

[CaptnMark]

In other words, Kimi should cause a safety car situation as soon as Massa pits.

[ex Rhodie racer]

My problem with the SC is that it makes a mockery of race tactics. What´s the point of trying to build a lead, for example, if it will disappear as if by magic once the SC comes out? That is no longer racing. It´s horse dung.

[Josta]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
My problem with the SC is that it makes a mockery of race tactics. What´s the point of trying to build a lead, for example, if it will disappear as if by magic once the SC comes out? That is no longer racing. It´s horse dung.

So what is your suggestion? That they continue at race speeds and play dodge the marshal?

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by Josta


So what is your suggestion?

I´m not sure I have one, but that hardly makes the present one right. It is a complex question.

[BMW_F1]

Without a safety car people can get killed as simple as that... To clean up the wreckeage the racing must be stopped, there is no other way around it.

[Owen]

What is the tactic? Don't overtake it?

[LuckyStrike1]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
My problem with the SC is that it makes a mockery of race tactics. What´s the point of trying to build a lead, for example, if it will disappear as if by magic once the SC comes out? That is no longer racing. It´s horse dung.

Safety cars are necessary in some situations - there is no way around that.

But closing the pit lane in both ends when the SC enters the track is something that can be discussed whether it's necessary or not.

But since that was no necessary until suddenly two years you could argue that this was a rule that was bad from the start. As far as I can remember there wasn't a huge problem with cars driving past marshals working at the track at huge speeds in a SC-period before this rule was implemented.

Having cars risking running out of fuel and therefore pitting, earning a 10 sec stop-go and completely destroying their race just because of a SC and closed pits does seem to make F1 more of a lottery instead of less of a lottery.

[Crazy Ninja]

Im a bit young but i read somewhere (or it was in commentary on youtube or something) that the safety car was only introduced in the 90s. If thats true what did they do beforehand - just race on and slow a the yellow flag? OFF TOPIC i know but i just wondered.

Back on topic - yeah the SC rules are ridiculous these days but hey what can ya do? Kimis right that they need to have their tactics spot on, ferrari have let themselves down recently imo in that area.

[Josta]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1


Safety cars are necessary in some situations - there is no way around that.

But closing the pit lane in both ends when the SC enters the track is something that can be discussed whether it's necessary or not.

But since that was no necessary until suddenly two years you could argue that this was a rule that was bad from the start. As far as I can remember there wasn't a huge problem with cars driving past marshals working at the track at huge speeds in a SC-period before this rule was implemented.

Having cars risking running out of fuel and therefore pitting, earning a 10 sec stop-go and completely destroying their race just because of a SC and closed pits does seem to make F1 more of a lottery instead of less of a lottery.

The simple answer would be to for the teams to tell the FIA how much fuel the drivers have before the race, and at each stop and only cars that would otherwise run out of fuel are allowed in to pit.

[Crazy Ninja]

Or ban refuelling

[Josta]

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja
Im a bit young but i read somewhere (or it was in commentary on youtube or something) that the safety car was only introduced in the 90s. If thats true what did they do beforehand - just race on and slow a the yellow flag? OFF TOPIC i know but i just wondered.

Back on topic - yeah the SC rules are ridiculous these days but hey what can ya do? Kimis right that they need to have their tactics spot on, ferrari have let themselves down recently imo in that area.

The first use of a safety car in F1 was the 1973 Canadian GP apparently.

[Josta]

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja
Or ban refuelling

Or allow the drivers to carry a spare can in the boot.

[LuckyStrike1]

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja


Back on topic - yeah the SC rules are ridiculous these days but hey what can ya do? Kimis right that they need to have their tactics spot on, ferrari have let themselves down recently imo in that area.

Change them back to what they were in 2006 perhaps?

[Josta]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
Without a safety car people can get killed as simple as that... To clean up the wreckeage the racing must be stopped, there is no other way around it.

Mind you, the safety car wasn't too safe for Taki Inoue.

[LuckyStrike1]

Originally posted by Josta


The simple answer would be to for the teams to tell the FIA how much fuel the drivers have before the race, and at each stop and only cars that would otherwise run out of fuel are allowed in to pit.

Another solution that seems even more simple for me is to revert back to the previous rules regarding SC.

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by Josta


The first use of a safety car in F1 was the 1973 Canadian GP apparently.

That could well have been so Josta, but not outside of North America I don´t think. It´s an American thing that only reached European GP racing much later. Couldn´t say exacty when though, but I would guess in the 90´s. I´m sure someone on here will have an answer.

[pacificquay]

Originally posted by Josta


Mind you, the safety car wasn't too safe for Taki Inoue.

That wasn't the safety car

[Imperial]

Originally posted by Dragonfly
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/67973



When safety car tactics turn into a decisive factor for a win the sport must have gone to a very low point IMO.
Such headline would be very funny if it wasn't sad.

There are complaints on this forum when teams don't react to SC periods properly or are ill-prepared for them. Now there are complaints because somebody is proactively addressing a high-probability of an SC period occuring during a race.

Where is the problem? It's a part of current-era racing in all race series.

As far as strategies are concerned, where do you want to draw the line at? If a potential occurence is a reality then what reason can you give why that should not be addressed and considered in order to maximise your own opportunities?

[Perigee]

Originally posted by Dragonfly
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/67973



When safety car tactics turn into a decisive factor for a win the sport must have gone to a very low point IMO.
Such headline would be very funny if it wasn't sad.

The key part is that it refers to Canada having had a safety car at every race in recent years.

If it were the case in ALL races (or the majority), then I'd be inclined to agree with you, but as it is just Canada that's being referred to, then it is less of a concern, and quite reasonable for the teams to work on the basis the SC will be deployed in the race.

[Imperial]

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja
Back on topic - yeah the SC rules are ridiculous these days

They aren't though, simply based on an SC being a necessary part of racing.

Jules Renard said "Look for the ridiculous in everything and you will find it". You can easily apply that to racing.

How much of things that happen during races is ridiculous?

Weather changes. It's not ideal and frequently screws up races, but it happens.

Track surfaces change, sometimes even break up. Same thing as above, it's crappy but it happens.

The point of all these things, whether ridiculous or not, is that every driver who starts a race has an equal chance of being affected by something. With SC's people focus too much on the guys at the front and whether they are going to miss out. People rarely focus on the guys at the back, who may benefit from an SC. Equally someone near the back can get royally screwed by an SC period and end up even further back than they were. It all depends on what a driver is doing in the laps immediately prior to and then during an SC period, as well as what their original tactics were.

It seems a lot of F1 fans (and teams and drivers) are absolute amateurs when it comes to SC knowledge and I highly recommend to anyone that they check out oval races (i.e. Indycar) to see what can really happen during an SC, how chances can be maximised, opportunities made, opportunities missed. In Indycar the SC is a reality several times per race (on ovals) and it's even an interesting part of the races to see how that affects things.

So my point is people should accept the bigger-picture of a race (no matter what the series) and learn to love all the possible occurences that a race encompasses. When people understand the minutae of stuff like this they'll enjoy their racing much more.

It's the casual fan who watches 20 mins of a race that doesn't understand things such as the SC or weather playing a part. They just say it's not fair.

Hardcore should not be complaining about such stuff in my opinion. Since the very first chariot race in the days of the Romans, from which racing has effectively changed very little if not at all, there have been variables that have affected the outcome of events. It's ignoring a part of what racing is to complain about it.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Josta


So what is your suggestion? That they continue at race speeds and play dodge the marshal?

All cars have to engage the pitstop speed limiter when the SC comes out. Hence the time gaps remain just the same as they were. Fuel issues would not be effected either. Apply a penalty for a car that does not engage the speed limiter, within the tiny margin for speed control engagement. Soon tyre warmers will be banned, therefor the tyre warming issue won't be such a challenge as it might otherwise appear to be. Maybe tyres could be warmed by increasing the limit to a higher speed for the last half of the final SC lap. But with no high speed tyre warm up, is that so bad? Maybe we'll see some good driving on the warming up tyres. F1 cars can suffer from cold tyres when running dry tyres on wettish tracks too. F1 should be able to handle cold tyres after a speed limited period IMO. The only gain might be when putting warm tyres on by pitstopping just before the SC leaves. Other than that I think engaging the speed limit would keep the positions just the same. Afterall with this system we risk a WDC being the result of a deliberate crash from a #2 driver, hence bringing in the SC and closing a gap or advantaging from a pitstop.

[wingwalker]

EXTRA, EXTRA, read all about it

Looks like keeping the heat in the tyres might be a problem with that solution, I'd like more specific info.

[Crazy Ninja]

Originally posted by Imperial


They aren't though, simply based on an SC being a necessary part of racing.

Jules Renard said "Look for the ridiculous in everything and you will find it". You can easily apply that to racing.

How much of things that happen during races is ridiculous?

Weather changes. It's not ideal and frequently screws up races, but it happens.

Track surfaces change, sometimes even break up. Same thing as above, it's crappy but it happens.

The point of all these things, whether ridiculous or not, is that every driver who starts a race has an equal chance of being affected by something. With SC's people focus too much on the guys at the front and whether they are going to miss out. People rarely focus on the guys at the back, who may benefit from an SC. Equally someone near the back can get royally screwed by an SC period and end up even further back than they were. It all depends on what a driver is doing in the laps immediately prior to and then during an SC period, as well as what their original tactics were.

It seems a lot of F1 fans (and teams and drivers) are absolute amateurs when it comes to SC knowledge and I highly recommend to anyone that they check out oval races (i.e. Indycar) to see what can really happen during an SC, how chances can be maximised, opportunities made, opportunities missed. In Indycar the SC is a reality several times per race (on ovals) and it's even an interesting part of the races to see how that affects things.

So my point is people should accept the bigger-picture of a race (no matter what the series) and learn to love all the possible occurences that a race encompasses. When people understand the minutae of stuff like this they'll enjoy their racing much more.

It's the casual fan who watches 20 mins of a race that doesn't understand things such as the SC or weather playing a part. They just say it's not fair.

Hardcore should not be complaining about such stuff in my opinion. Since the very first chariot race in the days of the Romans, from which racing has effectively changed very little if not at all, there have been variables that have affected the outcome of events. It's ignoring a part of what racing is to complain about it.

Good post, perhaps i should have phrased what i wanted to say a little better. The only rule as regards safety cars that i find ridiculous is the closing of the pit lane. I know it was to prevent cars racing back to the pits but things worked fine before it was introduced so i just dont see the sense in it. It can ruin someones race unnecessarily which is why i dont like it whereas bringing out the safety car and reducing the leaders gap is necessary therefore i just accept it as part of f1 (and it brings about a period of close racing during many a boring gp)

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja
Im a bit young but i read somewhere (or it was in commentary on youtube or something) that the safety car was only introduced in the 90s. If thats true what did they do beforehand - just race on and slow a the yellow flag? OFF TOPIC i know but i just wondered.

Back on topic - yeah the SC rules are ridiculous these days but hey what can ya do? Kimis right that they need to have their tactics spot on, ferrari have let themselves down recently imo in that area.

They stopped the race. At the end of the race the time gaps between cars was added back in so that no gain was made/lost due to the restart.

The SC was introduced to keep the race within it's scheduled time thereby keeping the TV companies happy, it really has bugger all to do with safety.

[Crazy Ninja]

Originally posted by Clatter


They stopped the race. At the end of the race the time gaps between cars was added back in so that no gain was made/lost due to the restart.

The SC was introduced to keep the race within it's scheduled time thereby keeping the TV companies happy, it really has bugger all to do with safety.

Thanks

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Clatter


They stopped the race. At the end of the race the time gaps between cars was added back in so that no gain was made/lost due to the restart.

The SC was introduced to keep the race within it's scheduled time thereby keeping the TV companies happy, it really has bugger all to do with safety.

To be fair, it was also a tad confusing with races run on aggregate times - you never knew where anyone was. I recall Mansell and Alesi having a great battle in the split race Japanese GP of 94. Mansell eventually got past Alesi but owing to time gap from first part of the race it meant nothing.

[Milt]

Originally posted by Crazy Ninja


Good post, perhaps i should have phrased what i wanted to say a little better. The only rule as regards safety cars that i find ridiculous is the closing of the pit lane. I know it was to prevent cars racing back to the pits but things worked fine before it was introduced so i just dont see the sense in it. It can ruin someones race unnecessarily which is why i dont like it whereas bringing out the safety car and reducing the leaders gap is necessary therefore i just accept it as part of f1 (and it brings about a period of close racing during many a boring gp)

Current Safety Car rules are at least partly to blame on Alonso's racing back to the pits under the SC rules in the 2003 Brazilian GP.
http://www.formula1..../season/2003/4/
If he had made the pits, and then got back out ahead of the SC, then he would inherit first place when everyone else pitted, from behind the SC.
Talk about gaining an unfair advantage!

But he blew it while running way too fast through Webber's debris field, and crashed, hard.
He could just as easily easily have taken out several Marshals, as well as Webber.
http://www.formula1....ming_popup.html

[D.M.N.]

Originally posted by Imperial

Weather changes. It's not ideal and frequently screws up races, but it happens.

Track surfaces change, sometimes even break up. Same thing as above, it's crappy but it happens.

The first thing's good, the second thing isn't.

If anything, the rain will play a bigger part in this weekends race than the Safety Car.

Originally posted by Clatter


The SC was introduced to keep the race within it's scheduled time thereby keeping the TV companies happy, it really has bugger all to do with safety.

Yes it does. Take for instance Canada last year iwth Kubica, for all the drivers knew he was there dead, they cannot continue racing around at 180mph full speed.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by D.M.N.
Yes it does. Take for instance Canada last year iwth Kubica, for all the drivers knew he was there dead, they cannot continue racing around at 180mph full speed.

Your right they can't keep racing, which is why they used to stop the race. If safety was really paramount then thats what they would still do. Much safer for both the marshalls, who would'nt have to worry about a train of cars going past every couple of minutes, and much safer for the drivers who wouldnt have to risk picking up a puncture while driving through the debris.

[Perigee]

Originally posted by Clatter


Your right they can't keep racing, which is why they used to stop the race. If safety was really paramount then thats what they would still do. Much safer for both the marshalls, who would'nt have to worry about a train of cars going past every couple of minutes, and much safer for the drivers who wouldnt have to risk picking up a puncture while driving through the debris.

I guess this is balanced by the fact that race starts are (or used to be more I suspect) a particularly dangerous part of the race, and that *everything* that could be done, would be done to avoid having a res-start.

Fortunately, start line injuries and fatalities seem to have beome a thing of the past, so I suspect re-starting the race could now be considered a safer option....albeit one that potentially punishes the race leader who might be passed into turn one.

[D A]

Originally posted by Milt
But he blew it while running way too fast through Webber's debris field, and crashed, hard.
He could just as easily easily have taken out several Marshals, as well as Webber.
http://www.formula1....ming_popup.html

Dear god that live commentary sucked, seems like something a 12-year-old would have written. The commentary that is done today is a lot better than that.

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
My problem with the SC is that it makes a mockery of race tactics. What´s the point of trying to build a lead, for example, if it will disappear as if by magic once the SC comes out? That is no longer racing. It´s horse dung.

When a started this thread I had similar thoughts in my mind.
I think most of us want to see victories as a result of on-track competition of packages - car + driver. With current SC rules (and all other limitations imposed in the last 10 years) the race results, especially if the race unfolds not the trivial way, are lottery. Teams must have a pair of good crystal balls to outfox, not to overcome the competition.

Originally posted by BMW_F1
Without a safety car people can get killed as simple as that... To clean up the wreckeage the racing must be stopped, there is no other way around it.

People can get killed even with the SC there. No one can forsee all possible situations. There's the human factor - pilots not obeying to the rules or not paying attention, track personnel not taking the prescribed precautions, etc. Motorsport is still dangerous. In the past the SC was used seldom and only in really critical situations. Still I don't remember a fatality during the last ten years under SC. There were accidents but they were caused by drivers not keeping within the rules.
If SC rules are changed every time a new situation occurs it won't be necessarily for the better. There must be some balance and current rules are off balance because a probability factor has become of great importance to the end result.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Perigee

I guess this is balanced by the fact that race starts are (or used to be more I suspect) a particularly dangerous part of the race, and that *everything* that could be done, would be done to avoid having a res-start.

Fortunately, start line injuries and fatalities seem to have beome a thing of the past, so I suspect re-starting the race could now be considered a safer option....albeit one that potentially punishes the race leader who might be passed into turn one.

True, but it's the track workers who are in the most danger once the SC is out. Personally I would prefer that they could do their job without having to keep looking over their shoulders.

[Ruf]

Originally posted by Josta


Mind you, the safety car wasn't too safe for Taki Inoue.

Wasn't that the Medical Car?

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Dragonfly
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/67973



When safety car tactics turn into a decisive factor for a win the sport must have gone to a very low point IMO.
Such headline would be very funny if it wasn't sad.

Yeah well, safety cars are nothing new and neither is the probabillity of them being used in Canada. I don't see what the fuss is :

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
My problem with the SC is that it makes a mockery of race tactics. What´s the point of trying to build a lead, for example, if it will disappear as if by magic once the SC comes out? That is no longer racing. It´s horse dung.

It's the same thing when it starts to rain. It's called '**** happens'.

[Imperial]

I just watched the 1985 Detroit GP (from the BBC Grand Prix broadcast) on dvd this week and at one point in the race I think it was Winkelhock went off and trashed his car on a 90 degree corner. No SC deployed.

James Hunt was going ballistic complaining that the track marshals weren't out there cleaning the track up, this said as car after car came absolutely tearing at great speed around the corner. Hunt was, understandably, concerned another car would hit the wreckage and crash. He didn't seem concerned at all though that perhaps there was a reason why the marshals weren't queing up like lemmings to get out there and risk their lives for a piece of plastic.

Definitely a lesson in why SC's are a good thing.

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

Originally posted by Josta


The first use of a safety car in F1 was the 1973 Canadian GP apparently.

Wasn't there an issue who actually won that race?

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by VresiBerba
It's the same thing when it starts to rain. It's called '**** happens'.

Oh I see. Everyone slows down and allows the one behind to catch up? Must have missed all those rain races. I will watch for that next time then.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Oh I see. Everyone slows down and allows the one behind to catch up? Must have missed all those rain races. I will watch for that next time then.

You've never seen race tactics gone to hell when it starts to rain? You must not been watching long then.

[ex Rhodie racer]

Originally posted by VresiBerba
You've never seen race tactics gone to hell when it starts to rain? You must not been watching long then.

How about........50 years (maybe too long)

[Risil]

Originally posted by Imperial

Definitely a lesson in why SC's are a good thing.

Or why poorly-designed street courses are a bad thing.

[rolf123]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


That could well have been so Josta, but not outside of North America I don´t think. It´s an American thing that only reached European GP racing much later. Couldn´t say exacty when though, but I would guess in the 90´s. I´m sure someone on here will have an answer.

It's even worse in the lower formulae. I attended World Series by Renault last year and, junior formulae being as they are - full of crashes and the like due to inexperience, there was a safety car or two in practically every race, not just the single seaters but also the Clios, Meganes etc.

This disease of a safety car has infected all the lower formulas as well, there is simply no point in building a lead anymore.

The safety car is a waste of space and was not introduced for safety but to spice things up. Get rid of it, I say.